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Small/Medium railguns - I am missing something

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Luke Pubcrawler	Posted - 2006.08.10 11:11:00 - [1] Hi Just moving up to cruisers so stsrting to look at medium railgum turrets and I have to say I am really under whelmed. What exactly is the point of the Dual 150s? By my calculations they do barely more damage than the small single 150 - if you allow for the fact the singles track faster and have better sig res and use 1/8th the PG the single 150 is possibly a better weapon to fit ! The 200MM railgun does anbout 25% more damage than the dual 150 and has better range it is true but it has a worse Rof and uses 2.25 times as much grid. When you allow for RoFthe DPS is not dramatically different. Am I missing something here or miscalculating somehow. Why on earth would anyone fit either 200mm or Dual 150 RG ?
Valea Silpha Cereal Killerz Chimaera Pact	Posted - 2006.08.10 11:35:00 - [2] Remember when mounting medium railguns on a cruiser with a bonus to them you will get about a 25% bonus, which does make them more worthwhile. However, as with most long range weapons, the top tier is the good one and the rest of them are pretty poor <Hammerhead> TomB is doing the nerfing <Hammerhead> I just stand behind him, look at his monitor and shake my head
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.10 11:50:00 - [3] those dual rails really sucks... even ship with dual bonus, like deimos or astarte sucks with them. Tbt, unless you have cruiser lvl5 and t2 guns and loads of gunnery, there is not much point in fitting med. size guns. Just fit smaller guns and drones. --------------------- Looking for frentix? Mail me.
valerydarcy The Priory	Posted - 2006.08.10 11:53:00 - [4] a good rule to live by when choosing rails is - if it has the word dual before it, dont use it. besides, its all about fitting small gins on a cruiser with a large tank ***
Dog Food	Posted - 2006.08.10 11:56:00 - [5] Yea I was looking into that, so to speak with my skills, Dual-150 t2 like implied in the name should do 2 X 150 t2 damage? Wrong, they dont do much more and as you said, worse tracking. 200MM's are a balance of range/damage/tracking/fitting. 250MMs are range/damage, tracking is poor and use a lot of powergrid. With my skills; On a thorax with cruiser lvl 5, and med railgun specialisation lvl 4, each dual 150MM Railgun II loaded with Antimatter M; Average DPS : 25.094 On an Incursus with frigate lvl 5, and small railgun specialisation lvl 4, each 150MM Rail II loaded with Antimatter S; Average DPS : 21.113 Less than 5% more dps from the dual 150, combined with worse tracking from the dual-150, I pick 150s anyday. Obviously my Thorax has 5 guns rather than 3, besides the point, dual-150s should do 150MM gun X 2.
Luke Pubcrawler	Posted - 2006.08.10 11:58:00 - [6] True - but bear in mind after flying frigates and destroyers for a while I currently have Small hybrid turret 4 - maybe not that unusual. So I have a 20% damage bonus to small turrets already. If I learn cruiser to 4 and fly a ship with a damage bonus to hybrids then I will equal the bonus I already have - to get better than it I have to learn a completely new skill - medium hybrid turrets, taking money and training time. Looking at Caldari ships - none get a hybrid damage bonus. The Moa does get the the range bonus which is nice. However when I first step up to a cruiser my railgun damage will actually fall due to the loss of my samll turret bonus. Even the 250 is disappointing at this stage. 150mm Rail Gun 1 with small turret 4. Iron Ammo Damage 2.75 x Iron Ammo 5/Rof 3.9 +20% = 4.04 250mm Rail Gun 1 with medium turret 4 Iron Ammo Damage 2.75 x Iron Ammo 10/Rof 6.38 +20% = 5.38dps So 1.34 extra dps at a cost of 215 extra MW, meaning that there is no way I will fit 4 250mm on the Moa unless I want them and nothing else. More damaging amo would of course cause more damage but the proportional change would remain constant. Only option seems to be to convert the Moas range bonus into a damage bonus by firing antimatter
Luke Pubcrawler	Posted - 2006.08.10 12:07:00 - [7] Originally by: valerydarcy a good rule to live by when choosing rails is - if it has the word dual before it, dont use it. besides, its all about fitting small gins on a cruiser with a large tank So would you suggest I take Moa - fit 4 x 150mm RG. Use antimatter for the damage, trading off the Moas range bonus for damage. Plus say 2 heavy launchers. Then use all the surplus power for tanking ? Large shield extender - Large battery - Large shield booster ? Killing anything bigger than a frigate might take all weak but I should be able to outtank it.
Gobberbogger	Posted - 2006.08.10 12:13:00 - [8] Originally by: Luke Pubcrawler True - but bear in mind after flying frigates and destroyers for a while I currently have Small hybrid turret 4 - maybe not that unusual. So I have a 20% damage bonus to small turrets already. If I learn cruiser to 4 and fly a ship with a damage bonus to hybrids then I will equal the bonus I already have - to get better than it I have to learn a completely new skill - medium hybrid turrets, taking money and training time. Looking at Caldari ships - none get a hybrid damage bonus. The Moa does get the the range bonus which is nice. However when I first step up to a cruiser my railgun damage will actually fall due to the loss of my samll turret bonus. Even the 250 is disappointing at this stage. 150mm Rail Gun 1 with small turret 4. Iron Ammo Damage 2.75 x Iron Ammo 5/Rof 3.9 +20% = 4.04 250mm Rail Gun 1 with medium turret 4 Iron Ammo Damage 2.75 x Iron Ammo 10/Rof 6.38 +20% = 5.38dps So 1.34 extra dps at a cost of 215 extra MW, meaning that there is no way I will fit 4 250mm on the Moa unless I want them and nothing else. More damaging amo would of course cause more damage but the proportional change would remain constant. Only option seems to be to convert the Moas range bonus into a damage bonus by firing antimatter 250s are really crappy at the beginning, you need t2 and good support gunnery to fully appreciate medium guns. Obviously medium guns are more skill intensive, but say the 250s have a large ROF than 150s, which they do, skills will effect the numbers more, apart from the damage modifier. For example you have 25% reduction in rate of fire, a gun with a 10 second ROF gets reduced to 7.5 (2.5 second reduction), whereas one with 20 seconds gets reduced to 15 (5 Second reduction). I definatly agree Dual-(whatever) need a boost. At the moment, using 150MM rails is better than dual-150s mainly because they dont do much more damage and have worse tracking. I think CCP need to increase DPS by like 10% and increase tracking so that it matches or is even better than a single 150. Giving these guns a true anti-frigate role.
Cletus Graeme Caldari Mordu's Elite	Posted - 2006.08.10 12:16:00 - [9] I have found a use for dual rails in a setup which I am experimenting with on my Moa for a young pilot with low SP (i.e. less than 3mill) Moa dual 150mm -------------- Hi : 4 dual 150mm (pref gauss), 2 med NOS Mid : Med Shield Extender / Invul Field, Med Shield Booster, MWD + WEB (essential) Low : 3 mag stabs + dmg ctrl This setup requires you to improve on their crappy damage output by fitting as many damage mods as possible and using AM ammo only. The 2 advantages of fitting duals are : (1) it frees up grid to fit 2 x med NOS (2) with AM your optimal should be approx 10km This means that you can web a target and keep him 5km-10km away from you (and thereby just out of range of his blasters) while you - hopefully - NOS and rail him to death. The main problem with this setup is that if he does get close enuf and/or if his drone skills are very good then you are probably dead. So it is not a setup for the faintheartend to fly
Jaketh Ivanes Amarr 1st Praetorian Guard	Posted - 2006.08.10 12:17:00 - [10] Originally by: Luke Pubcrawler True - but bear in mind after flying frigates and destroyers for a while I currently have Small hybrid turret 4 - maybe not that unusual. So I have a 20% damage bonus to small turrets already. If I learn cruiser to 4 and fly a ship with a damage bonus to hybrids then I will equal the bonus I already have - to get better than it I have to learn a completely new skill - medium hybrid turrets, taking money and training time. Looking at Caldari ships - none get a hybrid damage bonus. The Moa does get the the range bonus which is nice. However when I first step up to a cruiser my railgun damage will actually fall due to the loss of my samll turret bonus. Even the 250 is disappointing at this stage. 150mm Rail Gun 1 with small turret 4. Iron Ammo Damage 2.75 x Iron Ammo 5/Rof 3.9 +20% = 4.04 250mm Rail Gun 1 with medium turret 4 Iron Ammo Damage 2.75 x Iron Ammo 10/Rof 6.38 +20% = 5.38dps So 1.34 extra dps at a cost of 215 extra MW, meaning that there is no way I will fit 4 250mm on the Moa unless I want them and nothing else. More damaging amo would of course cause more damage but the proportional change would remain constant. Only option seems to be to convert the Moas range bonus into a damage bonus by firing antimatter Are these calculations with med size ammo? It does more damage than small ammo.

Gobberbogger	Posted - 2006.08.10 12:19:00 - [11] Originally by: Cletus Graeme I have found a use for dual rails in a setup which I am experimenting with on my Moa for a young pilot with low SP (i.e. less than 3mill) Moa dual 150mm -------------- Hi : 4 dual 150mm (pref gauss), 2 med NOS Mid : Med Shield Extender / Invul Field, Med Shield Booster, MWD + WEB (essential) Low : 3 mag stabs + dmg ctrl This setup requires you to improve on their crappy damage output by fitting as many damage mods as possible and using AM ammo only. The 2 advantages of fitting duals are : (1) it frees up grid to fit 2 x med NOS (2) with AM your optimal should be approx 10km This means that you can web a target and keep him 5km-10km away from you (and thereby just out of range of his blasters) while you - hopefully - NOS and rail him to death. The main problem with this setup is that if he does get close enuf and/or if his drone skills are very good then you are probably dead. So it is not a setup for the faintheartend to fly Change dual-150s for heavy electron blasters.
murder one Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2006.08.10 12:21:00 - [12] IMO people are just thinking about dual 150s all wrong. Ya, I used to hate them too until I sorted out their role in things. #1, they're not to be used vs. frigs. No tracking. Why use them vs. frigs when you wouldn't use 200s or 250s against frigs at the same (close) ranges? 150 duals are for cruisers or larger. Coupled with the damage boni of cruisers/BCs, dual 150s can put out quite a bit of DPS when compared to small 150s. But the main thing here is blasters. Electrons specifically. Dual 150s act like longer ranged lower DPS Electron blasters. Instead of having a 1km optimal, you now have an 8-9km optimal on your Brutix for instance, allowing you to hit much more easily (esp with the Brutix's crap agility). Anyway, this coupled with other odd stuff (spike ammo in T2 150s anyone?) can make for some interesting setups and capabilities that are a little unexpected. I once killed a guy Brutix vs. Brutix, and his char was a 2005 char, while mine had barely 2m SP or so. I had 150 dual rails and he had T1 named electron blasters. But I kept my range and semi-kited him (only had to stay at 7-8km to ruin his DPS) and it was a done deal. Anyway, think outside the box a bit. Everything can be used creativly and effectively if you give it some thought. Dual 250mms on a Mega with webber drones anyone? Because I said so...
Luke Pubcrawler	Posted - 2006.08.10 12:23:00 - [13] yes they allow for medium ammo. Small Iron = 5 damage x 2.75 150mm = 13.75 before rof Medium Iron = 10 damage x 2.75 250mm = 27.5 before rof However rof of 250mm is 6+
Cletus Graeme Caldari Mordu's Elite	Posted - 2006.08.10 12:23:00 - [14] Originally by: Gobberbogger Change dual-150s for heavy electron blasters. Totally off-topic.... Read the OP before you give patronising advice. This thraed is about dual rails - not blastermoas.
valerydarcy The Priory	Posted - 2006.08.10 12:31:00 - [15] Originally by: Luke Pubcrawler Originally by: valerydarcy a good rule to live by when choosing rails is - if it has the word dual before it, dont use it. besides, its all about fitting small gins on a cruiser with a large tank So would you suggest I take Moa - fit 4 x 150mm RG. Use antimatter for the damage, trading off the Moas range bonus for damage. Plus say 2 heavy launchers. Then use all the surplus power for tanking ? Large shield extender - Large battery - Large shield booster ? Killing anything bigger than a frigate might take all weak but I should be able to outtank it. dont fit an extender, ever. that increases your sig radius so even though youve got more hitpoints youll be taking more damage and essentially wasting a slot. a t2 invuln field in that slot would serve you much better. and as for the highs, i fit 4 light t2 neutrons with antimatter and 2 med nos. fit a larger booster and a mwd. using a mwd means that you can get away without using a web unless youre againsta ceptor of af. but against cruisers and bc's even bs's that a very decent setup. ***
inSpirAcy Caldari The Solopwnmobiles	Posted - 2006.08.10 12:35:00 - [16] Originally by: Dog Food Yea I was looking into that, so to speak with my skills, Dual-150 t2 like implied in the name should do 2 X 150 t2 damage? In a logical world that'd make sense. In the utterly crazy world of EVE the names make little to no sense at the best of times. Don't even get me started on lasers...
PathetiQ Gallente The FreakUs Org.	Posted - 2006.08.10 15:20:00 - [17] t2 rails are meant to be use with advanced ammo, maybe it will help on the dps
Crellion Art of War	Posted - 2006.08.10 15:31:00 - [18] Originally by: valerydarcy Originally by: Luke Pubcrawler Originally by: valerydarcy a good rule to live by when choosing rails is - if it has the word dual before it, dont use it. besides, its all about fitting small gins on a cruiser with a large tank So would you suggest I take Moa - fit 4 x 150mm RG. Use antimatter for the damage, trading off the Moas range bonus for damage. Plus say 2 heavy launchers. Then use all the surplus power for tanking ? Large shield extender - Large battery - Large shield booster ? Killing anything bigger than a frigate might take all weak but I should be able to outtank it. dont fit an extender, ever. that increases your sig radius so even though youve got more hitpoints youll be taking more damage and essentially wasting a slot. a t2 invuln field in that slot would serve you much better. and as for the highs, i fit 4 light t2 neutrons with antimatter and 2 med nos. fit a larger booster and a mwd. using a mwd means that you can get away without using a web unless youre againsta ceptor of af. but against cruisers and bc's even bs's that a very decent setup. Wrong advice. In many pvp situations an extender is MUCH better than an Invul field. In others the invul is better but it has to be decided in a case by case way.
Kelador Stormwolf	Posted - 2006.08.10 15:36:00 - [19] What I don't understand is why dual 150's use medium ammo - it would make more sense for them to use small ammo and double the ammo consumption per salvo. At least that way it wouldn't be so expensive when they miss ;) Considering that the only reason to mount dual 150's on a cruiser is to track fast moving targets you'd think they'd have a reasonable rate of tracking. "I can picture in my mind a world without war, a world without hate. And I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it."


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