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Ginnungagap & Crokite = boom boom boom ?

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Faya	Posted - 2006.08.10 13:14:00 - [1] Assume the following: - I control Ginnungagap (outer region) - I have a Crokite in my scrapheap - I have enough ISK to play with - An opponent just attacked me in Ginnungagap 1) Can I, after pulling the Crokite from my scrapheap onto Ginnungagap with its ability, sacrifice it for damage or does the other Ginnungagap ability prevent this sacrificing ? 2) If I can sacrifice it, doesn't that make for a crazy Ginnungagap defense? Sacrifice for 3 damage.. pay 1 to put crokite back to play from the scrapheap.. sacrifice again for 3 damage etc.. :)
Ishana Minmatar Millennium E.R.A	Posted - 2006.08.10 13:36:00 - [2] I don;t know the excact wording of that outer region, but by the sound of it you can indeed do what you said... Pretty nasty combo _________________________________________________________
Qual Gallente XanCom	Posted - 2006.08.10 13:46:00 - [3] This really depends on how you read the card. "Locations cannot leave this region or be played into it" "1[isk]: Put a location from any scrapheap into Ginnungagap" ... cannot leave... Thats pretty open for interpretation. We need another declaration on intent here. (We have a lot of those by now... Looking forward to some answers eventually... ) "The short version: Qual is right." - Papa Smurf
Faya	Posted - 2006.08.10 13:52:00 - [4] Ginnungagap(016/240)(Outer Region) Cost 1, Income +1, Locations Infinite Locations cannot leave this region or be played into it. 1: Put a location from any scrapheap into Ginnungagap. -------------- Crokite(035/240) (Location - Asteroid field) Cost 0, Income +0, Mineral value +3 Play only in an outer region. Sacrifice Crokite: Crokite deals 3 damage to target ship in this region. Those are the wordings on the cards in question :) That ginnungagap thing is crazy especially after a few expansions if it works like this ..
Vivec Hecate Caldari Legionari Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.08.10 14:12:00 - [5] guys, maybe the "can't leave" means that u can't sacrifice anything naturally on it. well maybe you can't DECIDE to sacrifice something on it unless the effect of some news affects the locations present in there... what else would "locations can't leave" mean? ----- -- MMORPG Italia Staff, Mod, Journalist, Spammer
Sarqindi Minmatar Startech Allegiance Inc	Posted - 2006.08.10 15:58:00 - [6] It should definitely prevent sacrificing. When I played with some friends, we thought of this combo with Ginnungagap and Echoes of Gloom Bay, but decided it shouldn't be possible. What CCP needs is to make an FAQ and sticky it.
Vivec Hecate Caldari Legionari Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.08.10 21:35:00 - [7] totally agree with sarq. cos u cant sacrifice cos of the card and CCP should make some FAQS like that ;) ----- -- MMORPG Italia Staff, Mod, Journalist, Spammer
Qual Gallente XanCom	Posted - 2006.08.11 07:35:00 - [8] Originally by: Vivec Hecate totally agree with sarq. cos u cant sacrifice cos of the card and CCP should make some FAQS like that ;) I owuld think all thier main CCG people are at GenCOn right now. Im sure they'll get to it once they get home. "The short version: Qual is right." - Papa Smurf
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.08.14 09:40:00 - [9] As far as I was concerned when I first read the Gap, you cannot sacrifice because it's own text precludes cards from leaving it. As Qual said, this is just one more thing that needs clarifying; first CCG sets always have bad type sets, and use words like 'leave' when they should use language that's not open to interpretation. Words like 'when' and such cause issues more than anything else with ccg rulings :) Originally by: Serzos Welcome to EVE. Please select a difficulty Easy Medium Hard Minmatar Scrapheap Challenge!
Telin Gallente Paradise Found Confederation of Independent Corporations	Posted - 2006.08.14 22:07:00 - [10] Is Crokite a Limited card? If so you can only play one Limited per turn. _______________________________________________

Faya	Posted - 2006.08.15 02:15:00 - [11] Originally by: Telin Is Crokite a Limited card? If so you can only play one Limited per turn. No it's not, and using Ginnungagap ability is not considered 'playing' crokite either.
Anarlina	Posted - 2006.08.15 05:57:00 - [12] Originally by: Testy Mctest As far as I was concerned when I first read the Gap, you cannot sacrifice because it's own text precludes cards from leaving it. As Qual said, this is just one more thing that needs clarifying; first CCG sets always have bad type sets, and use words like 'leave' when they should use language that's not open to interpretation. Words like 'when' and such cause issues more than anything else with ccg rulings :) The odd thing here is that the location cannot leave the region, but does that mean locations are indestructible while in the Gap? Does this indestructability apply to sacrificing (which it normally doesn't)? The problem here is that the rules on paying an ability's cost are unclear. In Magic, sacrificing is labelled differently so that if a card forces a sacrifice, or if you are required to sacrifice to pay for an ability, cards like the Gap cannot prevent you from actually paying the cost. Now, this isn't Magic, so it may not be the intended situation in this case. Still, it would be nice to get a ruling from a dev on if an ability like this one can prevent someone from paying a cost. My gut tells me the Gap is designed to prevent effects from causing a location to leave, rather than preventing someone from using an ability at all. So bouncing locations or destroying them would have no effect, but IMO, Crokite would still function normally. Still, don't take my word for it. ;)
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.08.15 08:57:00 - [13] Originally by: Anarlina The problem here is that the rules on paying an ability's cost are unclear. In Magic, sacrificing is labelled differently so that if a card forces a sacrifice, or if you are required to sacrifice to pay for an ability, cards like the Gap cannot prevent you from actually paying the cost. Precisely. We have no actual definition for cost and effect which is what causes the problem. In most games, cards that remove your ability to pay a cost preclude playing the card. However, we dont know if that is the rule here, or if that is the intention with the Gap. We'll find out soon enough I guess. Originally by: Serzos Welcome to EVE. Please select a difficulty Easy Medium Hard Minmatar Scrapheap Challenge!
Hinik Corsets and Carebears Whips and Chains	Posted - 2006.08.15 09:30:00 - [14] sacrificing crokite you would do in the combat phase, and you would use ganungagap's abilities in the setup phase. We tried it before... well Stavros tried it, I was on the recieving end so needles to say I went and asked one of the card developers so yeah, it isn't an infinate cycle you could play, but a once per turn thing. Hope this has helped.
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.08.15 09:36:00 - [15] Originally by: Hinik sacrificing crokite you would do in the combat phase Incorrect - it can be done at any time. Originally by: Serzos Welcome to EVE. Please select a difficulty Easy Medium Hard Minmatar Scrapheap Challenge!
Faya	Posted - 2006.08.15 12:16:00 - [16] Originally by: Hinik sacrificing crokite you would do in the combat phase, and you would use ganungagap's abilities in the setup phase. We tried it before... well Stavros tried it, I was on the recieving end so needles to say I went and asked one of the card developers so yeah, it isn't an infinate cycle you could play, but a once per turn thing. Hope this has helped. Not at all. 1) Crokite doesn't say 'play this ability only in the combat phase'. Thus it can be played at any time. 2) 'Gap doesn't have limitations on when you can use the ability. Thus you can use that at any time too. In conclusion: You could run the infinite (ISK limited) combo even in the battle phase.
Hinik Corsets and Carebears Whips and Chains	Posted - 2006.08.15 12:25:00 - [17] Edited by: Hinik on 15/08/2006 12:25:53 Originally by: Faya Originally by: Hinik sacrificing crokite you would do in the combat phase, and you would use ganungagap's abilities in the setup phase. We tried it before... well Stavros tried it, I was on the recieving end so needles to say I went and asked one of the card developers so yeah, it isn't an infinate cycle you could play, but a once per turn thing. Hope this has helped. Not at all. 1) Crokite doesn't say 'play this ability only in the combat phase'. Thus it can be played at any time. 2) 'Gap doesn't have limitations on when you can use the ability. Thus you can use that at any time too. In conclusion: You could run the infinite (ISK limited) combo even in the battle phase. OK... fair enough, but when would you logically want to use it other than in the combat phase? You can't sacrifice it if you are not in control of the region, and you can only deal damage to a ship IN the region, the only time an enemy ship is in your region, is when there is a combat phase... The only region that would allow an enemy ship in a region when it is NOT a combat phase is the Tierjev Pocket... and that doesn't let you replace crocite when you use it initially. So unless you can find a time when you would want to use Crokite outside a combat phase... you wouldn't be able to replace it there and then. AND you can only place a location in the setup phase... that's that the rules say.
Qual Gallente XanCom	Posted - 2006.08.15 12:41:00 - [18] Originally by: Hinik OK... fair enough, but when would you logically want to use it other than in the combat phase? You can't sacrifice it if you are not in control of the region, and you can only deal damage to a ship IN the region, the only time an enemy ship is in your region, is when there is a combat phase... Wrong. Your oppenent warps it there in his Management Phase, which would be the optimal time to crush his ships, well out of the Battle Phase... "The short version: Qual is right." - Papa Smurf
Hinik Corsets and Carebears Whips and Chains	Posted - 2006.08.15 13:07:00 - [19] Originally by: Qual Originally by: Hinik OK... fair enough, but when would you logically want to use it other than in the combat phase? You can't sacrifice it if you are not in control of the region, and you can only deal damage to a ship IN the region, the only time an enemy ship is in your region, is when there is a combat phase... Wrong. Your oppenent warps it there in his Management Phase, which would be the optimal time to crush his ships, well out of the Battle Phase... Ah true, but it's a moot point, as ganungagap specifically states that no location can leave or enter this region, unless you play the region's own abilities. And as this ability only lets you enter a region into it, you would not be able to play Crokite's own abiliy, ie sacrificing it for 3 damage.
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.08.15 14:12:00 - [20] Originally by: Hinik Ah true, but it's a moot point, as ganungagap specifically states that no location can leave or enter this region, unless you play the region's own abilities. And as this ability only lets you enter a region into it, you would not be able to play Crokite's own abiliy, ie sacrificing it for 3 damage. That was what most of the thread was getting at, but you seemed to indicate that it had been ruled otherwise? Im confused. Originally by: Serzos Welcome to EVE. Please select a difficulty Easy Medium Hard Minmatar Scrapheap Challenge!

Hinik Corsets and Carebears Whips and Chains	Posted - 2006.08.15 15:58:00 - [21] Originally by: Testy Mctest Originally by: Hinik Ah true, but it's a moot point, as ganungagap specifically states that no location can leave or enter this region, unless you play the region's own abilities. And as this ability only lets you enter a region into it, you would not be able to play Crokite's own abiliy, ie sacrificing it for 3 damage. That was what most of the thread was getting at, but you seemed to indicate that it had been ruled otherwise? Im confused. lol sorry
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.08.15 16:02:00 - [22] It prevents sacrificing the crokite. Locations cannot leave it. If you sacrifice the card, iyt leaves it. Therefore, you cannot sac crokite in that region. Technically speaking, you wouldn't return sansha's scout outpost to your hand either, as the region's ability would supercede the outpost's flaw.
Faya	Posted - 2006.08.16 02:22:00 - [23] Originally by: Malthros Zenobia It prevents sacrificing the crokite. Technically speaking, you wouldn't return sansha's scout outpost to your hand either, as the region's ability would supercede the outpost's flaw. That is another topic - Sansha's outpost only returns to your hand when another location is played into it. 'Gap prevents anyone from playing a location on it. Using its ability is not considered playing a location. This thread, is about whether I can sacrifice Crokite or not, and whether crokite goes to the scrapheap or not if I can do so.
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.08.16 02:36:00 - [24] Originally by: Faya Originally by: Malthros Zenobia It prevents sacrificing the crokite. Technically speaking, you wouldn't return sansha's scout outpost to your hand either, as the region's ability would supercede the outpost's flaw. That is another topic - Sansha's outpost only returns to your hand when another location is played into it. 'Gap prevents anyone from playing a location on it. Using its ability is not considered playing a location. This thread, is about whether I can sacrifice Crokite or not, and whether crokite goes to the scrapheap or not if I can do so. And as I said, you cannot sacrifice the card. The card has to be able to leave play to be sac'd. The region doesn't allow locations to leave play that are on it.


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