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Level 3 vs. Level 4 missions ISK-wise.

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Daniel LaCroix	Posted - 2006.08.10 17:13:00 - [1] I'm currently in the process of meticilously planning out the development of a character destined to be a PvPer (mostly solo). The character is going to need a relatively steady source of cash, which naturally brings me to this forum. Since I'm going to focus more on PvPing with smaller ships (no Battleships, though I may eventually go up to Command Ships if the training time proves worthwhile), running level 4 missions would necessitate additional training time investment into battleships skills, etc. All of the aforementioned naturally presents a question I've been unable to find an answer for. How do level 3 missions compare against level 4 missions in terms of pure isk/time ratios, are they considerably less lucrative? Is the additional time investment for lvl4s really worth it? Is it worthwhile to run lvl3s in HACs/Command Ships for added efficiency? Any thoughts on the matter?
master bates Amarr winmau industries	Posted - 2006.08.10 17:41:00 - [2] good lvl3 missions payout about 500k fee + 500k bonus , with bc spawns worth another 120k , if you are lucky you get 2 bc spawns. lvl4 missions payout about 800k +800k bonus on average, you get normally between 2 and 4 battleships worth 200k to 1mill each and sometimes a little over, there are usually a few bc's worth 120k each, and on some missions you get cruiser officers worth 300k each so on aveerage lvl3 payout totals 1.3mill roughly lvl4's usually about 4-5 mill total then you got loot to sell/ melt down lvl4's are a more viable solution if you want a large amount of isk to support a pvp character. youve also got the fact that lvl4's give out between 2000 to 5000lp on average per mission so big offers are more common. ----------------------------------------------- enjoy this my agent running guide Click here
Daniel LaCroix	Posted - 2006.08.10 18:35:00 - [3] Thanks for the info. Two questions spring to mind: (1) How fast are lvl3 missions compared to lvl4 ones? If lvl4's pay a lot more but are also significantly longer, they can still have very comparable isk per hour return rates. (2) How does solo complex running (5/10? 6/10? Maybe the lower ones are worth it while grinding the skills for l3+ missions?) compare to running missions solo in terms of isk per hour?
Ace Garp1 Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2006.08.10 22:43:00 - [4] Originally by: master bates good lvl3 missions payout about 500k fee + 500k bonus , with bc spawns worth another 120k , if you are lucky you get 2 bc spawns. lvl4 missions payout about 800k +800k bonus on average, you get normally between 2 and 4 battleships worth 200k to 1mill each and sometimes a little over, there are usually a few bc's worth 120k each, and on some missions you get cruiser officers worth 300k each so on aveerage lvl3 payout totals 1.3mill roughly lvl4's usually about 4-5 mill total then you got loot to sell/ melt down lvl4's are a more viable solution if you want a large amount of isk to support a pvp character. youve also got the fact that lvl4's give out between 2000 to 5000lp on average per mission so big offers are more common. i was making about 5 mill on gurista extranvaganza lv3 about 1.3 mill for mission and bonus and the rest as bounty pay took me freaken ages on my own though i must admit lol What the frig can i put here ?
Athanasios Anastasiou Elite Storm Enterprises Storm Armada	Posted - 2006.08.10 23:36:00 - [5] Sec status of the system the agent is in has a huge effect on isk. Right now, I am doing lvl4 missions in a 0.3 system. Average about 1.8m in rewards, ~8m in bounties and a random amount of loot.
Lorette Gallente Mythian Empire	Posted - 2006.08.11 01:58:00 - [6] Best mission ive ever had was: 2.8mill payout 2.8mill bonus 11,600lp 10+mill in bounties* 2k m3 of loot to reprocess (as its mostly all crap) *can get up to 60 mill for WC if you stick around for about 3 hours
Naran Darkmood Gallente Darkmood Family Inc.	Posted - 2006.08.11 06:32:00 - [7] I think looking into isk for bounty + mission reward adn looking at the time it takes to actually do the missions, I think there is not such a big difference. I'd even say some level 3 missions (like angel Extra lvl3) take longer to complete than some level 4 missions, but these pay accordingly more than the same lvl4. If you factor in the lp awards per mission and look at the implant offers, I'd guess the lvl4 are paying more. ----------------------------------------------- Warning: The above post may contain irony or sarcasm. If you are not fit to handle this, go the the beginning and start deleting the post from yopu
Lorette Gallente Mythian Empire	Posted - 2006.08.11 07:18:00 - [8] Originally by: Naran Darkmood I think looking into isk for bounty + mission reward adn looking at the time it takes to actually do the missions, I think there is not such a big difference. I'd even say some level 3 missions (like angel Extra lvl3) take longer to complete than some level 4 missions, but these pay accordingly more than the same lvl4. If you factor in the lp awards per mission and look at the implant offers, I'd guess the lvl4 are paying more. Yeah my favourite l4 is the 2 part slaver mission, pays out at maximum but unlike most other ones that do it takes about 30mins, if only i could run that one over and over id be rich (well richer than i am now )
Depko	Posted - 2006.08.11 08:32:00 - [9] I have done many lvl3 missions and some lvl4 (solo and more people). I fly gallente ships and was doing it in Megathron .I assume as a pvp character you will be useing megathron too, for sniping. . best lvl3 (hardest) have payout about 1 mil for the mission (500k+500k), cca 1.5 mil. reward in bounties, loot is mostly medium size and small size, nothing very expensive. It takes up to 1h with looting (8 hi slot with a tractor beam). . hardest lvl4 are so hard, that i nearly didnt even had enough firepower to kill all rats. hardest lvl4 needed at lerast 2-3 characters and it was sometimes very close. they pay about 2 mil for mission, i got for example 10 mil. in rewards for Serp. Extravaganza lvl4. Soloing lvl4 is VERY SLOW in megathron. i needed about 1h for each stage, the last stage is usually the hardest one and has taken 2h for me. Serp. Extravaganza lvl4 has 3 stages = 1+1+2 =4h approximately (without looting). I had to warp out because of low capacitor, i needed constantly running Tech II large armor repairer and cca 84% resists to survive the damage. but it was eating my cap very fast. One mission had about 12 scramblers/webbers that attacked me simultaneously and i couldn't kil them fast enough before i run out of capacitor. and i exploded in about 5 min after warping in a mission. some longest lvl4 have about 5-7 stages and i really can't imagine how long the mission would need to be soloed by me (6-12h?). LP wise lvl3 give me about 1900 Lp/h for the hardest missions. Lvl4 give about 3000 Lp with best empire agent and needed about 1.5h to be done in 2 people. solo it would need at least 4h if it were soloable by me, but i doubt it would be soloable.
Tizi Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2006.08.11 15:12:00 - [10] Originally by: Daniel LaCroix Thanks for the info. Two questions spring to mind: (1) How fast are lvl3 missions compared to lvl4 ones? If lvl4's pay a lot more but are also significantly longer, they can still have very comparable isk per hour return rates. (2) How does solo complex running (5/10? 6/10? Maybe the lower ones are worth it while grinding the skills for l3+ missions?) compare to running missions solo in terms of isk per hour? It will depend on your skill levels. When your first start stepping into level 4 you might not be making more isk/hour because of poor skills and understanding of the missions. After you learn how to run the missions, and improve your skills, the level 4 missions will greatly outpace the level 3 ones.

Cupdeez	Posted - 2006.08.11 16:54:00 - [11] Don't forget the real payout comes when you get really nice offers from your agent and lvl4 agents give more LP so you can get to 400,000 LP points and get items worth billions of isk. Some lvl4 mission i run i make 20 mil in bounties but it takes 2 hours. Payout from the agent is like 2 mil.
Depko	Posted - 2006.08.11 17:25:00 - [12] Originally by: Cupdeez Don't forget the real payout comes when you get really nice offers from your agent and lvl4 agents give more LP so you can get to 400,000 LP points and get items worth billions of isk. Some lvl4 mission i run i make 20 mil in bounties but it takes 2 hours. Payout from the agent is like 2 mil. The lvl4 agents give LESS LP/h than lvl3 agents if you solo the mission in empire.
Depko	Posted - 2006.08.11 17:29:00 - [13] Originally by: Daniel LaCroix Thanks for the info. Two questions spring to mind: (1) How fast are lvl3 missions compared to lvl4 ones? If lvl4's pay a lot more but are also significantly longer, they can still have very comparable isk per hour return rates. (2) How does solo complex running (5/10? 6/10? Maybe the lower ones are worth it while grinding the skills for l3+ missions?) compare to running missions solo in terms of isk per hour? (1) as i stated above, Lvl4 make more ISK/h in bounties for ships. but if you loose your ship every 20 lvl4 missions, lvl3 may get more profitable. with basic skills on operating a BS you will be surely shoot in your ship after a couple of lvl4. they are deadly a harder lvl4 are definitely nor soloable without good skills and raven. (2) all complexes in empire are camped by player waiting for respawns. if you do complexes out of empire you will be most probably shoot by an expirienced pirate.
MuffinsRevenger EmpiresMod	Posted - 2006.08.11 17:34:00 - [14] l3: Easy, lower rewards, possible to complete faster l4: Hard, higher reward, ALOT more risky and alot higher chance of losing your ship L4's are more fun imho Originally by: The Wizz117 jeez those guyz @ ccp talk like sweedish nobody will take u seriouse with that cind of accent.
D One mega mining corporation	Posted - 2006.08.11 20:47:00 - [15] Running 5/10 and 6/10 complexes solo can pay off very well if you're lucky enough to catch the officer, but only one or two of those are in safe space. The rest are out in low sec where pirates love ganking people to get their complex running gear. If you're curious about trying them, it's definately worth a shot. They can be loads of fun.
Shadarle	Posted - 2006.08.12 00:39:00 - [16] If you're doing level 3's in .5 sec with a good high qual agent, 15+ you should be getting payouts up to 800k-1mil + bonus of the same amount + 2500-2800 LP (with the connections skills trained). I tried a few level 4's and realized I made more money on the level 3's with far far far less risk. IMO, unless you have an absolutely amazing ship setup with very high skills you will find running level 3's in a BS to be faster than level 4's in a BS. Level 3's in a BC with high skills will be decent, but a BS will yield more cash/hour if you use dual tractors for loot collection in their massive cargo spaces (compared to bc's). I personally make a minimum of 5mil/hour on level 3's, which is when I have bad missions offered and crap loot drops (generally the extravaganza's are horrible isk/hour because of their terrible loot drops and long completion times). On good missions you can easily make over 30 mil/hour if you get a lucky drop. I'd say my average for level 3's running them straight without watching tv, posting, etc is about 8-10mil/hour. This is far more than many peopel say they make on level 4's... but like I said, sometimes I make only 5 mil and other times 15-20+ mil. Another thing to note... most people I see posting say they make closer to 2-3 mil/hour, which I can't understand but I suppose they arn't using optimal setups. They use BC's, AF's, etc... which probably are more interesting/exciting... but yield far lower payouts because they have to warp out sometimes/often, in a BS you will never have to warp out of anything and you will never have to return to pick up cargo you couldn't hold, etc. For extremely high money/hour, get Caldari BS 2 with a raven with heavy launcher's and 2 tractors and drones 5, interfacing 3 or 4. If you don't wanna spend the time for that you'll prob make 20-50% less isk/hour
Trioxis Caldari Kindergarden Corp	Posted - 2006.08.12 09:56:00 - [17] You'll make more money running Lvl 3 fast then doing lvl 4's slow or only the easy ones. It just depends on skills which ones will be more profitable for you.
vanBuskirk Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.13 20:28:00 - [18] Running level 4, you will occasionally get drone missions with 15-20 million worth of alloys, and at the moment, soon to be nerfed, you will sometimes get open-space kill missions which are just about risk-free (because you can snipe) and have belt rather than mission rats (e.g. angels instead of gist), which have bigger bounties and better loot. I did the open-space Pirate Invasion recently, and cleared about 30 million in an hour and a half. However, do it right and a Ferox can be just about invulnerable in level 3. I run a passive tank with 12.5k shields and about 250 sec recharge. Shields rarely go below 80% even in the most difficult missions. This has the advantage that even if you lose connection while scrambled, or the doorbell rings, or you are caught short, etc. etc. you will still have your ship when you get back. Regarding loot collection, which imho is worth it, either bookmark the cans and come back in a fast hauler (nano sigil with tractors seems popular) or, if RL cash allows, bring along a second-account alt and loot as you go. Or bring a friend; a noob with Amarr Indy 2 will do fine. And take time out to train social skills; you won't regret it. ---------------------------------------------- "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent." ----------------------------------------------
Torren Blaze Wolverine Solutions Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.08.14 00:02:00 - [19] Ok, how the heck are you getting 250 recharge rate on a Ferox with 12k shields? I'm running 3 large extender tech 2's and 2 shield relays and have 11k shields and 500 recharge rate.
vanBuskirk Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.14 09:18:00 - [20] Originally by: Torren Blaze Ok, how the heck are you getting 250 recharge rate on a Ferox with 12k shields? I'm running 3 large extender tech 2's and 2 shield relays and have 11k shields and 500 recharge rate. Those numbers may be slightly off - I wasn't logged in to check - it might be more like 350. The extenders are irrelevant for recharge rate. I run 2 named shield relays and 2x PDS II. In addition, I have the relevant skill at 5, which helps a lot. The important point is that the recharge, in absolute points per second terms, is immense, as the Ferox has much better speed of recharge than a BS with the same total shield. This idea is by no means original with me - I didn't really believe it would work, until I tried it. I am thinking of using a Ferox as the tank in a team level 4, while someone else shoots the rats - has anyone tried this? ---------------------------------------------- "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent." ----------------------------------------------

Karl Mord	Posted - 2006.08.14 11:46:00 - [21] Edited by: Karl Mord on 14/08/2006 11:51:35 Extenders are not irrelevant to sheild recharge rates. If you put a large shield extender on a Ferox, it boosts your total sheilds but does not increase your shield recharge time, resulting in an increase to the amount of the sheild per second you regenerate. Edit: But you should be putting 3 active hardeners in your mids anyways. 1 active hardener doubles your effective sheild recharge rate agianst a damage type. Doubles it.
Lazare Sauvageot	Posted - 2006.08.14 18:49:00 - [22] Originally by: Karl Mord Edit: But you should be putting 3 active hardeners in your mids anyways. 1 active hardener doubles your effective sheild recharge rate agianst a damage type. Doubles it. However, it does kill what he was saying about the up side of a pure passive shield tank--if you step away or get disconnected (for whatever reason), you'll probably still have your ship when you come back. With active hardeners, you run the risk of either: (a) having to run off from the computer for some reason without them on; or (b) having turned them on, running out of cap before you run out of shields. One of my two PvE setups on my Vexor is almost exactly the same (for mid/low slots, anyway), for precisely those reasons...
Shadarle	Posted - 2006.08.14 18:58:00 - [23] "However, it does kill what he was saying about the up side of a pure passive shield tank--if you step away or get disconnected (for whatever reason), you'll probably still have your ship when you come back. With active hardeners, you run the risk of either: (a) having to run off from the computer for some reason without them on; or (b) having turned them on, running out of cap before you run out of shields." Both of your risks are simply not risks if you actually have tried this setup in a ferox. You can run 3 active hardeners without ever running out of cap, thus they should be on 100% of the time from the second you leave space dock to the second you land. You will never run out and they are as constant as a passive shield tank is. And I am very glad to see someone else finally trying to explain to people that resists yield better tanking than most other methods. Some people actually use 4 large extenders on a ferox with 1 invuln field. They don't understand how much worse that is than 3 extenders and 2 specific active hardeners. I believe 1 large extender and 4 active hardeners is actually better still, but 2 extenders and 3 active hardeners is definately better than 2 hardeners if you know what type of damage you take more of.
Lazare Sauvageot	Posted - 2006.08.14 19:44:00 - [24] Originally by: Shadarle Both of your risks are simply not risks if you actually have tried this setup in a ferox. You can run 3 active hardeners without ever running out of cap, thus they should be on 100% of the time from the second you leave space dock to the second you land. You will never run out and they are as constant as a passive shield tank is. Quite true--I hadn't tried that setup on a Ferox, and hadn't taken into account the cap recharge rate; my apologies on that front. Still holds for a Vexor, though--tried it both ways (my other combat setup is a the conventional armor-tanking w/active hardeners, but I only use it when I know I won't be interrupted)...
vanBuskirk Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.14 22:28:00 - [25] Passive hardeners with high shield compensation skills changes things again. Level 4 skills with the right sort of named passive hardener is pretty close to the same resists as an active, with the advantage of no cap use at all. I run 3 railguns and a shield relay tank - I suspect that an active hardener tank would slowly deplete cap, until your guns run out of ammo. My full setup is 3 extenders and 2 passive hardeners, chosen according to rats, and the aforementioned 2 shield relays and 2 PDS II. At the moment, the extenders are 1x I and 2x II - maybe with advanced weapon upgrades V I could run a full tech 2 tank. But I don't really think it matters. I'm considering a fit with 7 heavy pulse lasers - this would would really be an AFK mission ship. ---------------------------------------------- "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent." ----------------------------------------------
Shadarle	Posted - 2006.08.15 03:26:00 - [26] "I've occasionally let rats eat into my armour, and even hull, to save time, knowing I can get ahead of the curve before my ship is dusted." That's generally a horrible idea as your shield regen is at its lowest point at 0%... meaning you're even less likely to recover. And since people are talking ferox's with passive setups thats all you've got. With an active tank things are completely different, as its cap that matters and not shields for how long you can hold a tank. But higher resists > higher shields. Doubling resists > Doubling shields. By the same logic, if you raise resists by 40% or raise shields by 15%, which do you think is better? Then consider raising one of two damage types by 40% (thus 20% reduction when split between em) or raising shields by 15%. You're still doing better with the resist mod. If you have 10000 shields and add 2000 more (t2 extender) you're adding 20%. If you instead added a third T2 hardeners (55% -20% stacking penalty = 44% dmg reduction / 2 = 22% boost to tanking). T2 hardener > T2 extender if you have 10000 shields. Not factored in here is that you generally take more damage from one damage type than another, so you'd actually be getting more than half the benefit from the resist. 8000 shields add 2000 more you're added 25% (still not as good as adding a 2nd kinetic hardener vs guristas).


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