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Ja'kar MAFIA	Posted - 2006.08.12 18:18:00 - [1] Ok b4 I start this is a discussion please read and think about eh bigger picture, rather then how you play the game! Summery I will present an argument that bm at gates for insta warp is a game exploit, unbalanced and makes low sec space as safe as empire and therefore the risk is only on the aggressors. I will argue that there are no mods that can challenge or have an opposite effect. For example warp scramble -> stab etc. there are setups which might get lucky but the æbmÆ is not an active mod to beat the gate camp, but rather an in game mechanic. If pirates had a similar way to pop ships there would be an outcry Ok then lets get into this again, firstly I am a pirate and this argument is within the paradigm of low sec space I am sure 0.0 and even empire might share the same problems, but this argument is focused on low sec space only. The fact that I am a pirate should not cloud you judgment when arguing back nor should how you are I play the game have any bearing on this dissection. I think BMÆs at gate is a game exploit, why? Well there is no mod used to get to the gate faster, say like micro-warp or cloaking. You just use the game mechanic to get around the 15k approach, so this in my mind is an exploit. As I can fit my ship to counter this. Risk is put on the pirate but the player with BMÆs has a free pass, how then is this risk -> reward. For example I sat on a gate with a cloak and with the help of scanner I know a mammoth is incomingà (Ok there could be a cloaked ship waiting for me, multiple BS might be waiting too jump in from the gate etc. The mammoth comes in lands right on the gate and is gone. Now before you type mindless comments, where is the risk for the mammoth pilot? Where is my reward for setting up my ship in a specific way, waiting for 15mins, and risking my ship/pod. Not to mention my risk of being -10 at a gate. How then is low sec dangerous if traps can be avoided via a game mechanics and not ship setup? If this way of avoiding traps was removed I would get more kills sure, but I would also be at more risk when I travel. But more importantly locals might be more willing to pay for passage, use protection, hire mercs, anti-pirates and even other pirates to clear the system. So what do I want? Well I want BM at gates removed and not allowed to be places below 15k from gate. But letÆs be honest 15k form a gate in a slow ship for a long journey is boring, I am not saying there should be no system in place to hurry the ship to gate just a fairer one that puts the balance at a more equal risk ->reward setting. I have come up with an idea! The Idea Why not have it so gates have a tractor beam, (with out sound or very low graphics to avoid lag). These beams (or whatever) would pull the ship at a set speed, say 400-600m/s. that they can be put on auto for you afk travellers or set to not activate for those of you whoÆs ship travel faster with out the gate beams. See this way both parties have a chance to complete there goal. Its not an æI win buttonÆ as it is now. Conclusion Therefore my argument is that the present system fails to be a fair system and is not balanced in the risk -> reward and needs to be addressed. There should be a new system as 15k travel to gate is boring. BMÆs for belts etc should remain but all gates should be cleared. I think this would benefit eve or at least put a proper danger element at gates. So please think about what I have said and try not to take a perspective of the way in which you play the game and try and see the bigger picture Thanks Jak
Azerrad	Posted - 2006.08.12 18:23:00 - [2] Edited by: Azerrad on 12/08/2006 18:25:31 Originally by: Ja'kar So what do I want? Well I want BM at gates removed and not allowed to be places below 15k from gate. But letÆs be honest 15k form a gate in a slow ship for a long journey is boring, I am not saying there should be no system in place to hurry the ship to gate just a fairer one that puts the balance at a more equal risk ->reward setting. I have come up with an idea! The workaround: BMs 100km from gate, warp to BM at 100km. I use instas but would much rather they be removed completely from the game. It removes to much of the risk from low sec. The idea of a gate tractor beam really isn't needed though. Faster ships should have an advantage over slower ships in this situation. Edit: I would also like to see gate guns range increased to 250km. Sniping should come with risk as well.
SUNscatcher Caldari Interstellar eXodus	Posted - 2006.08.12 18:27:00 - [3] I wouldn't mind eliminating BM's if empire was made totally safe from attack. Increase the number of gates into 0.0 so that entering these regions was more like running a maze. I've seen a number of pirates in action and 99% of the time they are simply ganking weaker unsuspecting and unprepared opponents. Force all pirates in 0.0 where they belong. Then we would have some balance. PS EVE is the most unbalanced game out there thus your point in kinda invalid because from that perspective, ie, balance in the game, isn't what draws people to EVE.
Katura Amarr Victim Services	Posted - 2006.08.12 18:29:00 - [4] Edited by: Katura on 12/08/2006 18:32:13 Originally by: SUNscatcher I wouldn't mind eliminating BM's if empire was made totally safe from attack. Increase the number of gates into 0.0 so that entering these regions was more like running a maze. I've seen a number of pirates in action and 99% of the time they are simply ganking weaker unsuspecting and unprepared opponents. Force all pirates in 0.0 where they belong. Then we would have some balance. PS EVE is the most unbalanced game out there thus your point in kinda invalid because from that perspective, ie, balance in the game, isn't what draws people to EVE. Pirates belong in low sec. EDIT - and another thing, Pirates are ment to attack weaker unprepared opponets. I'm not sure where you got the idea that pirates can make money through pvp by fighting fair fights. ___________ Trader, Industrialist & Freedom Fighter.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.12 18:31:00 - [5] CCP will ** someone off no matter what they do, but I will be happy whatever** they do as long as they do something. I would be happy if people warped right up to the gates. In safe space, its not really a problem and would remove suiciders (do we really need those anyway?). In 0.0, bubbles would stop people warping right up to gates just like it does today. In lowsec, im not sure of a decent solution that makes everybody happy. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Maya Rkell Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2006.08.12 18:32:00 - [6] "Exploit" is a specific term in Eve, it refers to something deemed such by a GM or dev, and is bannable to use. They are unintended, not an exploit. That aside, it hardly "makes low sec space as safe as empire", for starters you can catch on the other side of the gate, this is a clear fallicy. "I will argue that there are no mods that can challenge or have an opposite effect" is another, because interdictor probe launchers clearly can. Should warp disrupt probes be able to funtion in higher sec? Maybe.. (I'm in favour of new ways to catch, including different bubbles and probes which can be used in lowsec and only catch war enemies). "The fact that I am a pirate should not cloud you judgment..." But of course it's a relevant fact. Instas are a core game mechanic. You might not like this, but over 2 years after their introduction with no changes in how they work, this is the situation. There are entire ships based arround their use, one way or another, and the vast majority of balancing work has been done in their light. "where is the risk for the mammoth pilot?" That you jump and kill him on the other side, as above. Don't camp the gate which is the interface of lowsec/highsec...or do, and accept the fact that some people will escape. It's not a matter of "parties competing", it's a matter of you WILL slaughter the vast majority of people who come to the gate, and land right in the optimal of your guns. You CAN sit 200km away fom the gate and pop indys all day long with no real way of retaliating...with racks of WCS so even a covert getting in for a scramble won't be able to hold you. Speeding up AFK travel is a decidedly BAD idea, in any case. AFK travel SHOULD be far slower than manual travel. Further, under your system there would be little difference in the traveling speed at gates of a BS and a frigate! This is manfestly unfair to smaller ships, especially when you consider the fixed acceleration/deceleration speed of warp robs faster warp speed of much of its advantage. The present systems has flaws, but ripping out a crucial core-game system with no replacement is absolutely the wrong way to go, and will allow wholesale ganking with no reasonable counter, especially for the overpowered technique of the 200km sniper with a BS and T2 amo.
Azerrad	Posted - 2006.08.12 18:33:00 - [7] Originally by: Katura Pirates belong in low sec. /signed Also instas aren't a problem in 0.0 since you can put up warp bubbles to catch insta users if you want.
Katura Amarr Victim Services	Posted - 2006.08.12 18:34:00 - [8] Originally by: Jim McGregor I would be happy if people warped right up to the gates. In safe space, its not really a problem and would remove suiciders (do we really need those anyway?). In 0.0, bubbles would stop people warping right up to gates just like it does today. In lowsec, im not sure of a decent solution that makes everybody happy. Problem with that, wars. Whether we like it or not combat has always & will always take place at gates. ___________ Trader, Industrialist & Freedom Fighter.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.12 18:36:00 - [9] Originally by: Katura Originally by: Jim McGregor I would be happy if people warped right up to the gates. In safe space, its not really a problem and would remove suiciders (do we really need those anyway?). In 0.0, bubbles would stop people warping right up to gates just like it does today. In lowsec, im not sure of a decent solution that makes everybody happy. Problem with that, wars. Whether we like it or not combat has always & will always take place at gates. You're right... I didnt think about that. Complicates things abit... --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
SUNscatcher Caldari Interstellar eXodus	Posted - 2006.08.12 18:40:00 - [10] we need less "lo secure" space. But no pirates should be in lawless 0.0 or being chased by concord every second they are in an empire region.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.12 18:42:00 - [11] I want to be able to bribe concord to look the other way while I waste somebody in empire. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Maya Rkell Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2006.08.12 18:44:00 - [12] Jim McGregor, there are ways and means. I favour, for example, bubbles you can use in lowsec (worried about certain implications for highsec, butcould be persuaded...) which catch only war enemies. And "warp coils", stealthed deployables which drop ONE ship out of warp, either any (but the drop out is hostile and gets you shot immediately, rather than when you open fire, a tradeoff...) or just war enemies (useable anywhere). In other words, add active catching rather than making ships more passively "drop out of warp into enemy optimal" vulnrable.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.12 19:00:00 - [13] Originally by: Maya Rkell Jim McGregor, there are ways and means. I favour, for example, bubbles you can use in lowsec (worried about certain implications for highsec, butcould be persuaded...) which catch only war enemies. And "warp coils", stealthed deployables which drop ONE ship out of warp, either any (but the drop out is hostile and gets you shot immediately, rather than when you open fire, a tradeoff...) or just war enemies (useable anywhere). In other words, add active catching rather than making ships more passively "drop out of warp into enemy optimal" vulnrable. I like the ideas of bubbles in low sec. Or closerange modules to scramble the jumpgates. Or deployables to stop jumping. Anything that makes you able to catch people. Lets say the game would allow you to jump straight up to a gate in lowsec if you want, but if there is any of these things in place, you will be cought. Should be a decent idea, right? Currently you are pretty much immune to any danger if you have instas to the gates in low sec (ok, not smartbombing battleships if you are in a frigate). And it shouldnt be that way. If a pirate group decides to block a system, it should be blocked until they are removed by someone. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Bigiboi The Forsakened Companions GoonSwarm	Posted - 2006.08.12 19:12:00 - [14] ROFL, what the hell is wrong with you JAK? OMG i'm a pirate and can't kill my targets because of bm's, pirates shouldn't be able to catch their prey easily at gates, if that was the case then everyone would be a bloody pirate, and where is the fun in that? Don't you use bm's to get to a place faster or escape from enemy ships, and don't you also put on WCS? Everyone uses insta's even you u nimrod. And if you want to catch easy targets like haulers or noobs, just use your friggin imagination. Use flycathers or bubbles to get the ships away from the gate, should a Carebear like me tell you how to catch people? Put a bubble behind the gate B from gate A, when target warps in from gate A to Gate B, the bubble pulls him in even if he has an insta. Thats how I pop Pirates like you who also use insta's, from gate to gate and have like 7 wcs on. A pirate that cries on the forums should be kicked out of his pirate corp for being a sissy. I've also realised you are in MAFIA , OMG I can't stop laughing. One of the best pirate corps members is here on the forums trying to get BM's from gate to gate banned. LOL LOL LOL If anyone finds this rude or insulting, sorry to have offended you for these are just my opinions on the subject.
Azerrad	Posted - 2006.08.12 19:12:00 - [15] Originally by: Jim McGregor Or closerange modules to scramble the jumpgates. This module would have to have severe cap use or limits on how long it can be used. Otherwise I can see someone setting up a couple of tanking apocs and being able to permantently lock down a system which would be a problem.
Pussy Face	Posted - 2006.08.12 19:12:00 - [16] Edited by: **** Face on 12/08/2006 19:12:54* Ok
Maya Rkell Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2006.08.12 19:14:00 - [17] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 12/08/2006 19:15:07 Jim, well, I wouldn't take it as far. I'm not in favour of blocking gates. If you want to stop that frigate from running back to it, web them. Moreover, I'm in favour of limited ways to catch people as above. Letting pirates and gankers close a route down as per 0.0 bubbles would be a slaughter, and seriously put people off especially given the 0.4 systems on major routes, effectively chokepoints. Further, you're still allways going to be able to get windows of attack on people jumping IN. More options, yes. Overly powerful options? No. Where does the line lie? Well, I've made a few specific suggestions..let's discuss it.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.12 19:17:00 - [18] Bigiboi, nice flaming there. Why dont you try and give some suggestions to making eve free from instant bookmarks instead. I think some suggestions isnt that bad in this thread. Like allowing people to jump straight up to gates, but also allow deployable things to catch people in low sec. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.12 19:19:00 - [19] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 12/08/2006 19:22:06 Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 12/08/2006 19:15:07 Jim, well, I wouldn't take it as far. I'm not in favour of blocking gates. If you want to stop that frigate from running back to it, web them. Moreover, I'm in favour of limited ways to catch people as above. Letting pirates and gankers close a route down as per 0.0 bubbles would be a slaughter, and seriously put people off especially given the 0.4 systems on major routes, effectively chokepoints. Further, you're still allways going to be able to get windows of attack on people jumping IN. More options, yes. Overly powerful options? No. Where does the line lie? Well, I've made a few specific suggestions..let's discuss it. Well, if we remove instas from the game, I can only see it being done in combination with the option to warp within 0 km of the gate as well. And then we need some way of catching people to not make piracy useless. :) I agree that my suggestions might not be the best though. I just think something along those lines is what we should focus on. As for afk travel... if ccp wants to keep it taking longer than normal travel, I suggest making the autopilot always land 15 km from a gate, but giving people the option to jump within 0 km manually. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Mikal Drey Brutor tribe	Posted - 2006.08.12 19:21:00 - [20] hey hey the counter to BMs is bubbles. if bubles/dictor bubs were increased to .4 sytems then i could agree then there would be a better balance. however I feel that 15km warp to gates will have an impact on everyone that isnt desirable. although i long for the earlier days of eve with low sec being dangerous as hell, the 15km warp in point makes everyone vulnerable and low sec would be treacherous (once again) BM's while being un intended they are not an exploit. I tend to use the word workaround alot. CCP create game mechanics and the clever buggers amongst us find ways to use them with unintended results. there are many ways to remove/sdjust the BMS ingame and im sure that CCP are fully aware of them eg... remove the "bookmark location" from the game. However; removing BM's from the game has consequences to 90% of the population and this is something CCP cannot do; a recent DEV reply about a POS post confirms this. BM's are very nesecarry to the game as the most mindnumbing part of the game as well as, dare i say it, WOW is the traveling aspect. CJ'ing around gate camps is alot more effective than BM's :) just like the stab arguement its the agressor thats the most vociferous about the nerf call. And; the removal of BM's is clearly in favor of more players dying on a regular basis. By this its clear to me that low sec gate camps will return to the game and players entering low sec will be insta popped was they warp in. there was a test on sisi where warp points were customisable from 0m upwards but there was some issues that prevented this from hitting TQ. while im not in favor of BM's and generally play "old school" i think that they are really needed for the whole traveling process as well as n00bs and carebears having instas which has driven more people into lower sec. recent post about forum grammar : 'And' as a start of a sentence can be used as a conjunction. while being unsual and not "technically" gramitically accepted. It is still valid. yeah im sure mine are full of holes too :) dont get me started
Mikal Drey Brutor tribe	Posted - 2006.08.12 19:59:00 - [21] er.... just reading more posts. there are many threads/posts about BM's be they good or bad. to bigiboi: The game has changed dramaticly over the years and people like jak feel that PvP and piracy has changed for the worse. while, personally, i like u goons. you are also guilty of "expoliting" a game mechanic. The state of PvP today dictates : the greater numbers tend to win <--- goon tactic as well as various other tactics. eg. ECM . . . etc. Pirates are a dying breed and the blob wars have truly started. the goons come across as numbers=victory and this is the same arguemnt as BM's. Game mechanics etc. have totally changed the state of PvP, Traveling, piracy, missions.. blah blah blah. . . have been twisted beyond CCP's control. the goons are just as much a victim/contributer to this. I dont think, blobbing, camping, ECM, WCS . . will change for a very long time. Instas are also now part of the problem. Instas are here to stay and even if they go im sure that players will find a different workaround.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.12 20:05:00 - [22] Mikael Drey, instas really need to go sooner or later. I would prefer sooner. Just remove them, and make people warp up to 0km from a gate anywhere. However, in 0.0 and lowsec, allow bubbles to catch people. I can hear all the people screaming "omg we are going to DIE in lowsec". But come on... how is instas a fair game mechanism? It allows people to just run past gate camps like they arent even there, making low sec travelling perfecty safe for anyone. The greatest risk is at jumpin to the next system, and the risk would remain there even if instas disappeared from the game. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Aralin	Posted - 2006.08.12 20:07:00 - [23] One of the previous posters said Instas are unintended but not an exploit... /signed. I honestly do not consider instas any more of an expolit than tanking sentry guns or sniping from beyond sentry range. /slight sarcasm on Afterall the guns are there because obviously CCP intended to secure the gate, thus tanking or sniping from out of sentry range is obvously an expolit and instas are just another exploit to keep the pirate exploit from being overly expolited. /slight sacrasm off.
Ja'kar MAFIA	Posted - 2006.08.12 20:09:00 - [24] goon - please when was I crying??? I am 'talkng about an issue' in grown up manner - so please come back when ur a bit older (hate **s like u who think u can flame everyone- ***) drey bubbles don't work in low sec rest thanks for ur comments I just think they (BM's) take too much risk out of low sec
Ja'kar MAFIA	Posted - 2006.08.12 20:12:00 - [25] sorry yeah jumping to the next gate at -10 cannot be done at entry at empire system
Mikal Drey Brutor tribe	Posted - 2006.08.12 20:15:00 - [26] jim im 100% behind you that instas need to be removed. However; the issue for CCPO is that the impact to the game would be immense. some of us will adapt to game mechaincs and fit for low sec etc. but many many more will cry foul. I just think that calling for nerfs etc. is pointless. and even then players always find the workaround for stuff. I remember running a camp in amamanke with a destroyer fitted with stabs and ECM's and other mods etc. but thats just me id love to see instas go but i dont think that CCP should make that move.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.12 20:15:00 - [27] Originally by: Ja'kar sorry yeah jumping to the next gate at -10 cannot be done at entry at empire system I actually saw a video of a guy in a zealot that crossed a few empire systems with -10... it might be possible if you can get into warp really fast and have instas? --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.12 20:17:00 - [28] Originally by: Mikal Drey jim im 100% behind you that instas need to be removed. However; the issue for CCPO is that the impact to the game would be immense. some of us will adapt to game mechaincs and fit for low sec etc. but many many more will cry foul. I just think that calling for nerfs etc. is pointless. and even then players always find the workaround for stuff. I remember running a camp in amamanke with a destroyer fitted with stabs and ECM's and other mods etc. but thats just me id love to see instas go but i dont think that CCP should make that move. But players would warp to gates at 0 km instead without using bookmarks... maybe that will make them happy? And the ones being in low sec usually know how to take care of themselfs anyway. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Ja'kar MAFIA	Posted - 2006.08.12 20:18:00 - [29] snipering at gate in not an exploit, why cos u train for the mods and use em for the work around, and you can kill snipers (covert, etc) tell me how to counter an insta BM- what training did u do to use them, what mods do u need to make a BM? The guns at gate make pirates change tatics BM just get of jail free card Drey like ur sig - u pimp
Mikal Drey Brutor tribe	Posted - 2006.08.12 20:30:00 - [30] i dont think its about wether or not BM's are a good or bad thing. 0m warprange isnt needed as jump range is 2.5km (covert detection is 2km) i believe its finding the balance between BM's/warp range and the ability to lock a target and kill it. There would be a huge dynamic shift in the game if bm's were removed and/or killing people at gates became extint. sniping was a workaround for L4 missions that translated to PvP to workaround for sentry gunZ this is just as much and exploit as instas. nyabinghi did my sig. mail her ingame and mention my name she might give u a discount.

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