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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 38 post(s)
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 860	Posted - 2014.10.09 18:10:00 - [1] - Quote Mixed feelings on this. * I am really happy that non-combatant hauling ships are getting the 90% fatigue reduction -- that is something I had been pushing for and I'm happy you guys saw the light on that. Maybe extend this to mining ships, too? * Pretty sad to see JFs getting 10LY range. Their 5LY range allowed for some meaningful ability to disrupt incoming logistics. 10LY eliminates a lot of possibilities here. * Rorquals not getting the 10LY treatment is a little weird. Care to elaborate on why only JFs get the extra range? This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 860	Posted - 2014.10.09 18:18:00 - [2] - Quote CCP Greyscale wrote: Mr Omniblivion wrote: CCP Greyscale wrote: Rorquals will stay at 5LY/90% Is there a reason that Rorquals don't get the same 10LY range as JFs? Rorquals are used just as much for logistics as JFs, especially because their actual intended use isn't really...useful. We didn't think it was sensible to let it keep its drone bonus and have a 10LY range, and at the end of the day the bonus won out. The ship needs a large rework anyway, and we'll revisit all this when that happens :) I think anyone who is sane would willingly trade the drone damage bonus on rorquals for the extended range. If you're going to rework the ship anyways, this is the clear sacrifice to make. Hell, replace the drone damage bonus on the hull with 20% additional jump range per level. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 860	Posted - 2014.10.09 18:30:00 - [3] - Quote A thought occurs: does fatigue reduction stack? If I bridge a blockade runner (now with inherent 90% fatigue reduction) through a covert bridge (-50% fatigue), am I looking at a cumulative fatigue reduction? If that isn't desired, I'd just suggest that the best fatigue reduction factor be used when doing the calculation. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 864	Posted - 2014.10.09 19:27:00 - [4] - Quote Is trading the drone damage bonus on rorqs for 10LY max range in the interim, before you do a proper balance pass on rorquals, something you all are willing to do? This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 867	Posted - 2014.10.09 20:08:00 - [5] - Quote Yuri Thorpe wrote: Mr Omniblivion wrote: I'm reiterating this again in hopes that Greyscale reads it: Please- remove drone bonus on Rorqs, if that's a concern for you, and give them the 10ly jump range. We are all still waiting for a change for Rorqs, but that could be another several updates out. In the mean time, Rorqs are one of the most commonly used ships for logistics, and the 5ly nerf to them is just as bad as it is to JFs. It's not a matter of projecting our power, it's a matter of not committing suicide by trying to do day-to-day logistics. Not really, most of them sit in a POS their whole life, some people use it over a JF, but no enough to give them 10 and make them lose the drones. The rorqual is one of the most common logistics vessels used to service starbases. It excels at the role by being able to haul a decent amount, having a fleet hangar and a ship maintenance bay (have you tried scooping starbase modules without a blockade runner to zip around and grab them? It isn't fun!), and by having some rudimentary defense features like highslots (for cloaking and cyno) and the ability to field an okay tank. Drone damage bonuses don't fit this all that well, especially due to the rorqual's tiny drone bay (not to mention it only has three lowslots, limiting its total damage considerably.) This role may not be what is written on the box, but it's what the ship currently does, and it excels mightily at it. Kneecapping its range just serves to unnecessarily hamper POS logistics, which is an already thankless, soul-rending task. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 871	Posted - 2014.10.09 20:35:00 - [6] - Quote Edisonn Trent wrote: marVLs wrote: Fail CCP... You just insure us that nothing will change in EVE... sad that EVE is not Your's anymore but it belongs to crying lazy babies of null... It could be the biggest and best change in game in last few years, but it end as biggest fail... Have to agree, at least partly. Now any alliance with large numbers can just train lots of pilots to fly jfs and guarantee that they can move their subcaps with double the range of any cap fleet and with a much lower cooloff time. The previous changes dealt with both big problems in null- capital proliferation and the nigh invulnerability in numbers. Now the second part is gone, cause even though say goons won't be able to move their caps around the map, they can still run their hordes from one side of the map to another whenever they feel like it. Actually, increasing the range of a JF doesn't change the amount of TIME it takes to move at all. Nor does it the cost. Both fatigue and fuel consumption are measured in light years. I might be able to jump twice as far in one jump in a Jump Freighter, but I have to wait twice as long for jump cooldown, twice as long for jump fatigue to wear off, and pay twice the isotope cost. All increasing the range does is make more of nullsec accessible from lowsec and make all routes take fewer cyno alts. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 873	Posted - 2014.10.09 20:48:00 - [7] - Quote Edisonn Trent wrote: 90% reduction means that transport fleets will move a lot faster than capital fleets. Pretty easy to turn unarmed jfs into offensive gambits with that. Or, you could use an interceptor, and use the JFs closer to the operating base to move stuff. Much faster than your option. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 874	Posted - 2014.10.09 21:02:00 - [8] - Quote A6ame wrote: "All ships designated as having a GÇ£haulingGÇ¥ role in ISIS (ie the following ship groups: *Industrial, Blockade Runner, Deep Space Transport, Industrial Command Ship, Freighter) will similarly get a 90% reduction to distance counted for the purpose of fatigue generation. Obviously they canGÇÖt jump themselves, but this also applies on use of bridges or portals. " Whats to stop N3//CFC from now traveling in T1 industrial hauler blobs and avoiding massive fatigue generation???* Gates are still faster. I recommend interdictor class space vessels for stopping them. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 876	Posted - 2014.10.09 21:37:00 - [9] - Quote progodlegend wrote: Kismeteer wrote: I'm still waiting for an update on why the Rorqual 20% drone bonus is more important than it's daily use, as a mini-jump freighter or combat pos dropper. Here I'll respond. The idea is for you not to be able to use a rorqual with 10 ly range and 90% jump fatigue to be able to deploy towers like you are currently capable of doing. Deploying towers is not the same as fueling them. If this is the case, then the Rorqual restriction misses its mark entirely. New tower set up is the one case where a Jump Freighter is actually preferred to a Rorqual. Rorquals are for the maintenance of existing towers. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 877	Posted - 2014.10.09 22:06:00 - [10] - Quote Camios wrote: CCP Greyscale wrote: Hi everyone, All ships designated as having a "hauling" role in ISIS (ie the following ship groups: Industrial, Blockade Runner, Deep Space Transport, Industrial Command Ship, Freighter) will similarly get a 90% reduction to distance counted for the purpose of fatigue generation. Obviously they can't jump themselves, but this also applies on use of bridges or portals. I want to emphasise that this can be exploited. Everyone takes an industrial ship, moves to the nearest-to-objective ship cache using the jump bridge network and titan bridges, then reships. I think this will be really easier than using swarms of jumpclones, especially with the 90% fatigue reduction. How exactly is this faster than taking gates in an interceptor? This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 877	Posted - 2014.10.09 22:25:00 - [11] - Quote Nazri al Mahdi wrote: CCP Greyscale If you want nullsec industry to really thrive, let outpost owners charge sales and indy/research taxes. Market hubs will spring up very rapidly :) Good news -- I've gone back in time and implemented this. You can do this right now. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 878	Posted - 2014.10.09 22:45:00 - [12] - Quote Camios wrote: Querns wrote: Camios wrote: CCP Greyscale wrote: Hi everyone, All ships designated as having a "hauling" role in ISIS (ie the following ship groups: Industrial, Blockade Runner, Deep Space Transport, Industrial Command Ship, Freighter) will similarly get a 90% reduction to distance counted for the purpose of fatigue generation. Obviously they can't jump themselves, but this also applies on use of bridges or portals. I want to emphasise that this can be exploited. Everyone takes an industrial ship, moves to the nearest-to-objective ship cache using the jump bridge network and titan bridges, then reships. I think this will be really easier than using swarms of jumpclones, especially with the 90% fatigue reduction. How exactly is this faster than taking gates in an interceptor? Jump bridges usually cut away a lot of jumps, danger and time. Interceptors are essentially invincible going gate to gate, outside of one specific scenario (that can easily be scouted.) No amount of jump bridges increase safety of travel more than an interceptor does. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 878	Posted - 2014.10.09 22:58:00 - [13] - Quote JEFFRAIDER wrote: Querns wrote: Interceptors are essentially invincible going gate to gate, outside of one specific scenario (that can easily be scouted.) No amount of jump bridges increase safety of travel more than an interceptor does. guys my afktar :( I meant gate to gate. :V Ishtars that get caught ratting and die to interceptors are idiotlords and deserve their fate This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 878	Posted - 2014.10.09 23:04:00 - [14] - Quote Medalyn Isis wrote: Why do you think I am trolling? I can only see moon minerals as being the big issue. The only other thing I can think of is fuel for capital ships, which again you would still be able to get the ice for specific to the region. Anything else I am missing? Planetary Command Centers, Infrastructure Hub upgrades, outpost upgrades, and (hardly worth mentioning) skillbooks. Booster gas is also extremely regional and multiple types from disparate regions are needed to craft Improved and Strong boosters. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 878	Posted - 2014.10.09 23:05:00 - [15] - Quote Camios wrote: If what you say is correct, basically the nerf can totally be negated by using ship caches. And it just got a lot easier now that Jump Freighters have nearly their entire range back! This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 879	Posted - 2014.10.09 23:22:00 - [16] - Quote Grath Telkin wrote: Way to cave to the whining, now because you can have 9-10 jump clones around places and since you've made it even EASIER to move bulk freight around your collected power projection changes amount to ****, existing alliances will now be completely entrenched until you change the rest of sov, so instead of fixing the stagnation of 0.0, you're making it worse. How can you screw this up so bad when you had it, you were so close, then Baaaw its not fair that EVERYBODY has to take gates so you trash all the progress you'd made and basically pitch underhanded. "Let Down" doesn't begin to describe my reaction to reading this bullshit. Yeah, I agree -- backpedaling on the JF range made me pretty disappointed. Geography almost mattered again. Also, increasing blackops BS range is a bit of a WTF, but at least it's not that much. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 880	Posted - 2014.10.09 23:31:00 - [17] - Quote El Deuce wrote: Who wants to design the first fleet comp that'll fit inside a t1 hauler repackaged? If it's a Deep Space Transport (and you have Transport Ships 5, I think,) you can fit a packaged battleship inside its fleet hangar with about 10k to spare for modules and ammo. Nevermind that they align and warp like pigs. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 880	Posted - 2014.10.09 23:46:00 - [18] - Quote Grath Telkin wrote: Hey guys, lets nerf sub caps ability to travel by anything but gates, oh except t1 haulers, thats a good idea because they take about 20 minutes to train to use and suddenly you can have unimpeded access to your JB network and travel just as fast as before, and because CCP collectively have the spine of a Man O War, theres a ton of ships waiting for you after you moved from Tenal to Delve through bridges because making logistics guys take gates is a sin but making the people who sit mind numbling bored shooting structures have the same rules applied to them sounds like a crime. Thanks for literally nothing. I don't normally like to make posts like this, but those are some oddly specific example systems you're using there :V This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 883	Posted - 2014.10.09 23:48:00 - [19] - Quote Nazri al Mahdi wrote: Querns wrote: El Deuce wrote: Who wants to design the first fleet comp that'll fit inside a t1 hauler repackaged? If it's a Deep Space Transport (and you have Transport Ships 5, I think,) you can fit a packaged battleship inside its fleet hangar with about 10k to spare for modules and ammo. Nevermind that they align and warp like pigs. You have literally every slot open to fix the alignment and warp though, which is exactly how I fit mine. It's no interceptor, but it's close to a cargo-fit blockade runner. Very true. I guess I am blinded by using the slots for tank and prop mods. Goddamn DSTs are awesome now. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 884	Posted - 2014.10.09 23:54:00 - [20] - Quote Regarding industrials, though, I'd like to see some math. How much space can one cover in the five minutes it takes for the JB fatigue to wear off, compared to an interceptor? This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 884	Posted - 2014.10.10 00:52:00 - [21] - Quote Grath Telkin wrote: Alp Khan wrote: Iudicium Vastus wrote: Stabbed-align-fit T1 industrial being used as the new shuttle. Please CCP, don't do the fatigue reduction on T1 haulers/industrials!!! If anything, possibly the T2 (Hell, Deep Space Transport has the title Deep Space right in its name) but NOT cheap minutes long training T1 industrials. Your concern is quite pointless, as travel fit interceptors are already perfect and unstoppable shuttles already, besting every industrial in game by the virtues of being able to insta-align, having the best warp speed in game and at the same time, nullified. Wrong So the interceptor is stoppable, but the 3.7s align wreathe is somehow immune? Last I checked, jump bridges are still one per system, which offers plenty of opportunities to catch them with bubbles, not to mention just dragging them off the JB itself. Nobody's even proven that a wreathe that can use a jump bridge once every 5 minutes is even any faster than an interceptor that aligns in 66% of the time, warps twice as fast, and with proper scouting, can avoid getting pipebombed by just bouncing celestials. Get some actual math on JB wreathes vs interceptors and maybe this conversation has merit. Even still, interceptors are a sight safer. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 884	Posted - 2014.10.10 01:12:00 - [22] - Quote Grath Telkin wrote: Querns wrote: Get some actual math on JB wreathes vs interceptors and maybe this conversation has merit. Even still, interceptors are a sight safer. Here's some math for you: Right now people travel via jump bridges because they are the fastest most efficient way to move around their empire. This change would have added choice to that, they wouldn't have been the fastest but they'd been the safest. Now, 30 minutes of skill training puts bridges right back as the best possible means of travel. You have zero need of math to see that a ship that has to take gates, even a fast aligning frigate thats bubble immune, is slower than a pos that shoots you across a region and lands you in the lowsec outgate system. Actually, I do. :sun: Okay, so it turns out the math is pretty easy if you have the power of GTS. WHY THE THEORY OF TRAVEL INDUSTRIAL POWER PROJECTION IS BASICALLY BULLCRAP So to standardize the route (and keep it firmly in grr goons territory) we are going to use YA0 to F2O as our route. It covers a pretty good portion of the map. CONTESTANT ONE: THE CRUSADER Here's the route a crusader takes. Note that it might be a slightly larger number of gates due to GTS's feature for optimizing for warp distance at the cost of using more gates. http://i.imgur.com/ahBf9Iq.png Down at the bottom we see it's 49 jumps, taking 30 minutes. Note that GTS does not allow you to use implants or rigs to increase your warp speed, so this is a bog-standard, unfit interceptor. CONTESTANT TWO: THE TRAVEL FIT WREATHE Now, using our jump bridge network, a wreathe spends 16 minutes warping, but it has to take NINE jump bridges. Since you can't "blitz" this (the maximum number of jumps you can perform is six before your fatigue starts making your cooldown longer than five minutes,) this means that you spend a minimum of 45 minutes waiting for your fatigue to wear off. This means the wreathes take 1 hour to complete the same route. I dunno about you, but I'll take half the time and immune to bubbles any day. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 885	Posted - 2014.10.10 01:41:00 - [23] - Quote Medalyn Isis wrote: Not entirely. I can still think of ways to abuse this. For instance you can quickly project a very large sub capital fleet across a much wider expanse of the galaxy by using T1 freighters, Orcas or even DSTs. With the 90% fatigue, and considering you can do 6 jumps without any meaningful fatigue, that means you can very easily and quickly relocate a very large fleet in a radius of 30 light years. Much more than that if you start waiting out the cooldown. With this system I can easily envision large entities setting up rapid response sub capital fleets such as these which can be once again projected to anywhere in the galaxy at very short notice. The fatigue is still pretty meaningful. A six jump blitz takes 15 minutes to execute, and leaves you with 77 minutes of fatigue to manage afterwards. E: This also doesn't cover the travel time between jump bridges. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 885	Posted - 2014.10.10 02:12:00 - [24] - Quote Kossaw wrote: Last time I checked you couldnt fit a packed megathron in the cargo bay of your interceptor. You can't fit one in a Wreathe either -- you need a DST to do that. Which, I hasten to add, aligns a lot slower, and has one less rig for boosting warp speed. Also, why would I do this when I can just JF the materiel to my forward operating base beforehand? Thank you, 10LY range! e: trimming quotes This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 885	Posted - 2014.10.10 02:22:00 - [25] - Quote Grath Telkin wrote: Querns wrote: Medalyn Isis wrote: Not entirely. I can still think of ways to abuse this. For instance you can quickly project a very large sub capital fleet across a much wider expanse of the galaxy by using T1 freighters, Orcas or even DSTs. With the 90% fatigue, and considering you can do 6 jumps without any meaningful fatigue, that means you can very easily and quickly relocate a very large fleet in a radius of 30 light years. Much more than that if you start waiting out the cooldown. With this system I can easily envision large entities setting up rapid response sub capital fleets such as these which can be once again projected to anywhere in the galaxy at very short notice. The fatigue is still pretty meaningful. A six jump blitz takes 15 minutes to execute, and leaves you with 77 minutes of fatigue to manage afterwards. E: This also doesn't cover the travel time between jump bridges. Despite your 'worst case scenario, a ceptor will still be slower than a hauler for things like, going say from 6VDT to Hophib, and that will be a fairly constant. From the bowels of Dek to empire and back every day with no penalty at all, every day, in T1 haulers, still faster than ceptors This example doesn't work either -- it takes 2 JBs to get to hophib with our current network and 5m of flight time (15m) and 9m38s by interceptor. :shobon: e: WHOOPS had GTS set to wreathe for the no-jb part, actual time drops from 13m to 9m38s This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 885	Posted - 2014.10.10 02:26:00 - [26] - Quote I mean sure we could reroute the network to do 6VDT -> D4KU, but two things: A) Why would we do that, Hophib is not very useful to us 2) That is one jump bridge, an interceptor can suck that up with not much problem This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 886	Posted - 2014.10.10 02:31:00 - [27] - Quote Grath Telkin wrote: 2 jbs, 1.5 minutes for the first, then take the second, i'm not sure where you get your numbers EDIT: I suddenly think one of the two of us doesn't understand what that cooldown reduction does to T1 haulers and i think its you. if you had to do 2 jbs, you would jump, wait 1.5 minutes, and jump again. Not 5 minutes. Your assumption is that you would always jump as soon as your cooldown is off, which is BAD NEWS BEARS for your fatigue. Your example is Hophib. I don't actually know why you chose it, but I'm guessing it's so you can bridge through lowsec to get to Delve. You need an additional two bridges to catch before you get to Sahkt from Hophib. That's another 2j, which puts you at 4. Your fatigue is already at 38 minutes to slough off, and you haven't even gotten to Delve yet. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 886	Posted - 2014.10.10 02:35:00 - [28] - Quote Also, this is 6VDT you are talking about -- it's in Fountain, a border region to Delve. You are optimizing in a space of about 10 minutes here, not the extra half hour the industrial needs to waddle down to Delve from Deklein. I dunno about you, but being able to march a subcap force to the next region isn't really a significant amount of power projection. Deklein to Delve is -- this is why I chose it for my example. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 886	Posted - 2014.10.10 02:44:00 - [29] - Quote Grath Telkin wrote: Leaving the heart of any region should take 5 minutes and 2 gates - GSF Logistics team on proper force projection controls. I'm not on the logistics team. I don't even have roles in waffe :confused: Also, considering that my 30m interceptor trek from deklein to delve takes us through six regions (Deklein, Fade, Pure Blind, Cloud Ring, Fountain, Delve,) I'd say 5m is about right! Grath Telkin wrote: http://i.imgur.com/iJj6K92.png Nothing wrong with this picture at all What are you even trying to say with this? BOT has plenty of jump bridges too (well, I assume -- if you guys haven't put up bridges there IDK what is wrong with you.) Is it somehow more wrong when we use them? This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 887	Posted - 2014.10.10 02:54:00 - [30] - Quote Iosue wrote: CCP Greyscale wrote: Querns wrote: Is trading the drone damage bonus on rorqs for 10LY max range in the interim, before you do a proper balance pass on rorquals, something you all are willing to do? Happy to discuss it, yes :) excellent! i've owned a rorq for years and have never used or considered using the drone damage bonus. i have used it extensively to manage npc null pos's. the ability to add a mwd and improve its crusing speed makes it attractive to use when jumping into non station systems. as mentioned by many others, this is what the ship currently excels at. until a meaningful revamp in done, please don't hinder its current role. This is a succinct summary of the essence of the rorqual. CCP may have envisioned it to fit a certain role, but more often than not, players will find a better use. Emergent gameplay is pretty cool. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 888	Posted - 2014.10.10 02:59:00 - [31] - Quote Manfred Sideous wrote: Like using JFs to stockpile doctrine ships and then having everyone use haulers and take JB's unimpeded of power projection changes amirite? #Metamergent Hey, I'm with you on the JF thing. Increasing the range of the JF to 10LY was a mistake -- I'd much rather see it remain at 5LY. And, again, interceptors are better than haulers at traveling~ This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 888	Posted - 2014.10.10 03:05:00 - [32] - Quote Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky wrote: Querns wrote: Manfred Sideous wrote: Like using JFs to stockpile doctrine ships and then having everyone use haulers and take JB's unimpeded of power projection changes amirite? #Metamergent Hey, I'm with you on the JF thing. Increasing the range of the JF to 10LY was a mistake -- I'd much rather see it remain at 5LY. And, again, interceptors are better than haulers at traveling~ With these changes, taking a gate will be far faster at traveling distances than a jump drive purely on the basis of such an incredibly small range with a fatigue timer the example is right, an interceptor with the similar warp speeds as the wreathe will beat the wreathe always when the wreathe gets an ability to take a covops cyno has been make 100% useless His example isn't wrong you're literally taking the role bonus a covops ship has to take a covops to travel long distances is being made useless because of the short range and fatigue timers it will always be faster to take a gate in all circumstances The wreathe is a T1 industrial. It can't take covert jump portals. You might be thinking of the Prowler instead? This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 888	Posted - 2014.10.10 03:07:00 - [33] - Quote Hendrick Tallardar wrote: Alp Khan wrote: You can't fit a packed Megathron to any of those ~travel fit short train power projection industrials~, such as the Wreathe fit that was shared here either. That concern is completely without merit. My understanding, as a person with no individual thought because I'm not part of your player group, was that it wasn't an issue of "you can move ships so much faster" but more so "you can move your character in that ship across half the galactic map with little to no fatigue due to the 90% or so fatigue reduction T1 haulers get." The ability to be staged out of say, Delve, and use a JB network + the T1 industrial to jump all the way up to say Venal (or whatever that V region in the north is) with no fatigue penalty is rather dumb. Check this post: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5104328#post5104328 for how you can do it in an interceptor in even less time than the industrial takes. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 888	Posted - 2014.10.10 03:57:00 - [34] - Quote Gorgof Intake wrote: KayleInara wrote: Grath Telkin wrote: From the bowels of Dek to empire and back every day with no penalty at all, every day, in T1 haulers, still faster than ceptors I'm pretty sure that the penalty for taking a T1 hauler from the bowels of Dek to empire and back is that you never actually get there due to your T1 hauler getting exploded somewhere along the way. Two weeks ago I JC'd a cyno alt to an old JC I had down in Delve from when I was last down there 6 mths or more ago. I put it in a t1 hauler with a cyno still on it, full of expanded cargo hold lows. I set its autopilot through nullsec all the way to a station in Cobalt Edge- 90 odd jumps or something like that. I hit autopilot and went to work. Was going to be interesting to see how far it got before it was podded. I came home to find it sitting there off station unable to dock. I forgot it had been kicked from corp and was in a noob corp. So in other words, Null Sec is currently that empty and devoid of content that one can autopilot a t1 hauler 90jumps from Delve to Cobalt Edge through the late Euro and the entire US prime and come back to it in the middle of the AUtz and find it not destroyed. It had taken armor dmg so I imagine that the worst that had happened to it was rat spawns had nibbled on it as it slowboated towards a gate. Isn't that route completely blue or in empire for you except for a few jumps in Delve? This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 888	Posted - 2014.10.10 04:04:00 - [35] - Quote Gorgof Intake wrote: Reading comprehension still outstanding in the CFC. Pro-tip. It was a noob alt. Also, set for nullsec route to test theory rather than go through hi sec. Okay. Still doesn't change the fact that the only nullsec you went through was renter space. What did you expect to happen -- the renters would do anything but dock up when a neutral came through? Y'all give me flak for choosing the "worst possible scenario" and you go and come up with a crappy anecdote like this? This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 888	Posted - 2014.10.10 04:19:00 - [36] - Quote Andrea Keuvo wrote: CCP Greyscale wrote: All ships designated as having a "hauling" role in ISIS (ie the following ship groups: Industrial, Blockade Runner, Deep Space Transport, Industrial Command Ship, Freighter) will similarly get a 90% reduction to distance counted for the purpose of fatigue generation. Obviously they can't jump themselves, but this also applies on use of bridges or portals. You do realize that this will be horribly abused to quickly move capital pilot clones and will undo a lot of the positive aspects of the changes you are making right? This is not true. Interceptors are much faster over the distances you're worried about. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 888	Posted - 2014.10.10 04:28:00 - [37] - Quote Gorgof Intake wrote: I think you answered your own question there. I started on the 'western' side of the map and finished on the 'eastern'. I dont think this anecdote is anything but indicative of how much empty space is out there. If its only risk adverse (read content adverse) players using the space to gain isk then I think there could be better ways to balance the game. Those renter empires exist not only because of capital power projection from the likes of N3/PL and Goons, but also because all 3 of those entites also use that renter space to hold onto high value nodes like moon goo etc. Little to no local traffic. No local infrastructure. No local market. Near perfect intel streams from local chat etc and tried and tested tactics to get off grid before a hostile band can intercept. So, the fact that you were able to sail through an area of space whose cowed candor you were complicit in creating is... a reason to remove the fatigue bonus to industrials? I'm really struggling to see your point, here. Normally I wouldn't call out a specific group of sov havers because of something like this, but you were the one who attributed my lack of reading comprehension to the entire CFC, so it seemed like it fit with the current level of discourse. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 888	Posted - 2014.10.10 04:42:00 - [38] - Quote Gorgof Intake wrote: Careful with that thesaurus. You might hurt yourself. D'aww, shucks. You're making me blush. :kimchi: e: this is :kimchi: http://fi.somethingawful.com/images/smilies/kimchi.gif This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 888	Posted - 2014.10.10 04:59:00 - [39] - Quote Inslander Wessette wrote: Querns wrote: Andrea Keuvo wrote: CCP Greyscale wrote: All ships designated as having a "hauling" role in ISIS (ie the following ship groups: Industrial, Blockade Runner, Deep Space Transport, Industrial Command Ship, Freighter) will similarly get a 90% reduction to distance counted for the purpose of fatigue generation. Obviously they can't jump themselves, but this also applies on use of bridges or portals. You do realize that this will be horribly abused to quickly move capital pilot clones and will undo a lot of the positive aspects of the changes you are making right? This is not true. Interceptors are much faster over the distances you're worried about. Interceptor's cant carry as much as T1 haulers or as easily trainable than a T1 hauler. which is like 30 min ? Ah, yes, the terrifying 13k m^3 that a travel fit wreathe or blockade runner can hold. Truly, we are in the, as Laughable Xhosa Girl once said, "the winter of our discount tent." You could fit a whole CRUISER in there. In what world does it make more sense to carry around single ships in a t1 industrial everywhere you go over using a jump freighter on an alt, or employing a corp/alliance/coalition JF service to do the hauling for you? This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 888	Posted - 2014.10.10 05:17:00 - [40] - Quote Kalissis wrote: With T1 Indis having only 90% fatigue, power projection is going to be: 1. get into T1 into 2. project your ass over 10 titans (5ly bridges) to BS cache location. 3. get into BS, fight 4. fly back with your T1 indi using same 10titans. @CCP Greyscale this benifits verly large groups that can cache their ships across EVE, please take away the 90% bonus and stick to your plan having this bonus only on Rorq and JF (and maybe BLOPS bridged ships). This is false. Interceptors are much better at travel than t1 industrials, even in the face of jump bridges. Check here for the math that proves it takes interceptors half the time to cross large distances. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 889	Posted - 2014.10.10 05:30:00 - [41] - Quote Ukiah Oregan wrote: CCP Greyscale wrote: For players less than thirty days old, once per player corporation joined, or For all players greater than thirty days old, once per year: You may push a button in your corp interface (while a member of a player corp and docked) that: GÇóMoves your medical clone to a station designated by your corporation, and GÇóThen moves you to the (new) station containing your medical clone Exact method of corporations designating target station still being ironed out, but it will involve at the very least being able to designate a default station for all corp members, and will likely be allowed for any station with a corp office, regardless of system sec status. This seems to us like it solves the "I want to recruit people to Nullsec" concern, and also gives non-Nullsec recruiters an easier way to get genuinely new players to the right location easily. Is anyone concerned about the idea that a pilot can become more or less locked into a corp for a year? How does this allow a player to realistically relocate - change corp or alliance in a timely manner? Personally i would think this should be given a second thougth and revise the wait to a 15 to 30 day wait limit having to wait 15 to 20 days would help eliminate the "immediate" force projection factor while allowing for a better player movement as they search for a permanent home i would think this could be a hard sale to pitch to a recruit if you're in deep NULL with no way out for year..... They're actually iterating on this and allowing you to revoke your clone contract, which has the effect of setting your medical clone to a (single) rookie system in empire as a "Last Helicoptor out of Saigon" type action. This doesn't solve all of your issues, but it does give folks an option to beat feet, should they find their current situation untenable. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 889	Posted - 2014.10.10 05:50:00 - [42] - Quote Grath Telkin wrote: You math was proven to be true only in the extreme cases, it was also proven you didn't understand how the 90% reduction worked The "extreme cases" are exactly the point of the change. Did you forget that the whole point of fatigue was to punish long-distance travel, while leaving comparatively short-range travel less inhibited? Besides, you yourself went out of your way to mention Tenal to Delve as the fulcrum of your issue with the proposed changes. You don't get to use an "extreme case" on one hand and then denounce it later when math makes it inconvenient. And I understand the 90% reduction just fine -- I just think managing long-term fatigue is more important than squandering it on one-way fast travel. People have to get back from their little excursions, too. The whole point of the fatigue formula is to allow short bursts, but to make you pay for your haste later. Even if you did get your way and the 90% fatigue reduction was removed from hauling ships, what exactly have you gained? Interceptors still exist; interceptors still ignore bubbles; interceptors still have best-in-class warp speed. You're tilting at windmills because you have created a bogey man in Jump Bridges that does not actually exist, when the real issue is the interceptor. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 889	Posted - 2014.10.10 05:55:00 - [43] - Quote Kalissis wrote: Querns wrote: Kalissis wrote: With T1 Indis having only 90% fatigue, power projection is going to be: 1. get into T1 into 2. project your ass over 10 titans (5ly bridges) to BS cache location. 3. get into BS, fight 4. fly back with your T1 indi using same 10titans. @CCP Greyscale this benifits verly large groups that can cache their ships across EVE, please take away the 90% bonus and stick to your plan having this bonus only on Rorq and JF (and maybe BLOPS bridged ships). This is false. Interceptors are much better at travel than t1 industrials, even in the face of jump bridges. Check here for the math that proves it takes interceptors half the time to cross large distances. It is not, while using gates has a certain risk (doesnt matter if you are using Interceptors, risk is there) and you dont get to leave systems out (as per jumping 5ly ahead), thus maintaining very low footprint compared to using gates and traveling system to system. Using Indis and bridges will yield no such thing, also what about JUMP BRIDGES? using Indis is not and is never as fast as using jump bridges with 90% less fatigue. Take a look at the math again. Using interceptors to cross the distance from YA0 to F2O takes half the time of using jump bridges in a travel fit industrial. You can't talk about comparative risk while completely ignoring bubble immunity. That interceptors are vulnerable in a very specific scenario requiring significant setup time (and the accumulation of a boatload of fatigue for the smartbombing battleships) does not even remotely compare to the dangers a T1 industrial faces taking gates. You do know that jump bridges are only one per system, right? That anyone using them has to take a gate to get to the next one? This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 890	Posted - 2014.10.10 06:09:00 - [44] - Quote Perseus Kallistratos wrote: I think you should come up with some more math calculations to prove that your interceptor is faster than jump bridges. If you come up with more numbers that substantiate your claim, then you're either bad at math or your jump bridge network is a pile of ****. I find both options promising. I already did. Do all of you forget that fatigue is a thing when it is inconvenient? I'm sorry that your shared, institutional paranoid fantasies of jump bridges aren't substantiated by reality. Truly, I am. They just don't compare to the nullified interceptor. Hell -- the guy who came up with them is from your tribe. Really, you only have yourselves to blame. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 890	Posted - 2014.10.10 06:20:00 - [45] - Quote Perseus Kallistratos wrote: Querns wrote: Perseus Kallistratos wrote: I think you should come up with some more math calculations to prove that your interceptor is faster than jump bridges. If you come up with more numbers that substantiate your claim, then you're either bad at math or your jump bridge network is a pile of ****. I find both options promising. I already did. Do all of you forget that fatigue is a thing when it is inconvenient? I'm sorry that your shared, institutional paranoid fantasies of jump bridges aren't substantiated by reality. Truly, I am. They just don't compare to the nullified interceptor. Hell -- the guy who came up with them is from your tribe. Really, you only have yourselves to blame. Sir I am going to have to ask you for more numbers and equations before i can take your claims seriously. Tribal politics I'm afraid. [x] ran out of rational arguments Eve-o posters, ladies and gentlemen. I'll be here all week. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 890	Posted - 2014.10.10 06:22:00 - [46] - Quote Kalissis wrote: You are ignoring so many facts in your calculation. T1 industies can be learned in no time while interceptors can take up to 23d on a fresh char. Smartbombing incoming Interceptors is very well possible, look at how rens pirates perfected smart bombing back then, a focused group will kill every interceptor crossing. Well timed bombing runs will kill your interceptors too. Insta locking is possible in some cases (wrong inti fit/****** skills). So there is a lot of risk involed, and I bet ppl find even more ways. Fact is you can keep ppl away from any risk using Industials and JB/Titans while going gate to gate involes risk, more attention from the player and a way bigger footprint (even on the ingame MAP). You're ignoring that bubbles stop T1 industrials cold, while being literally ignored by an interceptor. Constructing a complicated vignette to try and prove an edge case is a pretty sure sign that you're out of ideas, and are only arguing because someone you don't like disagrees with you. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 890	Posted - 2014.10.10 06:26:00 - [47] - Quote Burneddi wrote: Kalissis wrote: You are ignoring so many facts in your calculation. T1 industies can be learned in no time while interceptors can take up to 23d on a fresh char. Smartbombing incoming Interceptors is very well possible, look at how rens pirates perfected smart bombing back then, a focused group will kill every interceptor crossing. Well timed bombing runs will kill your interceptors too. Insta locking is possible in some cases (wrong inti fit/****** skills). So there is a lot of risk involed, and I bet ppl find even more ways. Fact is you can keep ppl away from any risk using Industials and JB/Titans while going gate to gate involes risk, more attention from the player and a way bigger footprint (even on the ingame MAP). I wonder what would happen if someone bubbled the JB when a fleet of T1 Industrials warp to it and launched some bombs at it. I'd kinda like to see that. Same. This doesn't happen to interceptors~ This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 890	Posted - 2014.10.10 06:31:00 - [48] - Quote Tootenh'amon wrote: I wonder where in a jb titan chain the bubbles will be... You'll deploy them yourselves? So, now instead of jump bridges, it's titan chains? Are we taking titan bridges the entire way from YA0 to F2O? http://evemaps.dotlan.net/jump/Moros,044/YA0-XJ:F2OY-X (yes it says moros 0 but dotlan doesn't let you use the jump bridge option through lowsec and npc 0.0, and moros 0 has the same range as a JB and a post-phoebe titan's bridge range) That's sixteen jumps. No matter how much you might want to throw caution to the wind and ignore fatigue, at 16 jumps you HAVE to obey the 5 minute speed limit. That's 1h20m and 16 pilots that have to be carefully placed along the route who can do nothing else but cannon wreathes and mastodons around. Again, unfit interceptors can do that run in 30 minutes. God help you if you actually rig for warp speed. You're not thinking these vignettes through particularly well. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 890	Posted - 2014.10.10 06:35:00 - [49] - Quote Inslander Wessette wrote: i can do 37 k m^3 on my interon 5 ? + Force projection is not entirely about time taken to travel but also how you travel. Moving through cyno's makes you hard to intercept . An the harder to predict /intercept . Exactly why would i be travel fit again ? Because, no matter what, you still have to take gates. You still have to warp, you still have to align. These things take time. Titan bridging is not instantaneous travel, and neither are jump bridges, and that is even before you take fatigue into account. Being travel fit cuts a significant amount of time off your journey. 37k m^3 isn't even enough to hold a battleship, anyways. You need a DST for that, which costs a hell of a lot more than a T1 industrial or an interceptor. They also take a lot more training time -- not that I think that is a particularly relevant argument, but it keeps getting brought up, so I might as well use it to my own advantage, seeing as it seems to be important to some. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 890	Posted - 2014.10.10 06:42:00 - [50] - Quote Perseus Kallistratos wrote: Putting aside all the bad things that can happen to the one jump a hauler needs to make between JBs or the zillion gates the interceptor has to take... the point is still that its faster to travel long distances using a well designed jb network than an interceptor. My point has nothing to do with you being in goonswarm or cfc or whatever identity you think makes people disagree with you. People are disagreeing with you because you're wrong and are literally too stupid to see this glaring hole in making t1 haulers exempt from the extra large nerfbat. Perhaps if you made a 3d animation of your tests we could be convinced otherwise. Feel free to design a better jump bridge network than we currently have. Ours is pretty darn efficient at getting nerds from Deklein to Delve. Fountain in particular. I'm not wrong -- I can prove my points with simple math. All you and yours have are some weird, hypocritical hatred for jump bridges, and an example in one region where you've chosen the worst possible central location by gates because it's one jump from the irrelevant lowsec craphole you seem so hellbent on reaching. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 890	Posted - 2014.10.10 06:45:00 - [51] - Quote Kalissis wrote: Querns wrote: Kalissis wrote: You are ignoring so many facts in your calculation. T1 industies can be learned in no time while interceptors can take up to 23d on a fresh char. Smartbombing incoming Interceptors is very well possible, look at how rens pirates perfected smart bombing back then, a focused group will kill every interceptor crossing. Well timed bombing runs will kill your interceptors too. Insta locking is possible in some cases (wrong inti fit/****** skills). So there is a lot of risk involed, and I bet ppl find even more ways. Fact is you can keep ppl away from any risk using Industials and JB/Titans while going gate to gate involes risk, more attention from the player and a way bigger footprint (even on the ingame MAP). You're ignoring that bubbles stop T1 industrials cold, while being literally ignored by an interceptor. Constructing a complicated vignette to try and prove an edge case is a pretty sure sign that you're out of ideas, and are only arguing because someone you don't like disagrees with you. I called you out on at least 4 risks for interceptors beeing used and you are ignoring 2 of them. Also no how are you going to bubble Titan to Titan jumping, tell me? FACT1: T1 industies can be learned in no time while interceptors can take up to 23d on a fresh char. FACT2: Smartbombing incoming Interceptors is very well possible, look at how rens pirates perfected smart bombing back then, a focused group will kill every interceptor crossing. -> Need warp offs, more time involed! FACT3: Well timed bombing runs will kill your interceptors too. FACT4: Wrong inti Fit -> caught FACT5: Bad skills -> caught FACT6: Pilot error -> caught FACT7: Bigger footprint -> intel! Now you dont need to use JBs but yes it will be faster not only on fleet ops but if you want to go in your NULL imperium from A->B. And I'm fully aware that you need to take 1 jump over to the next system (in best case) to get to the next JB, still no intercepter can make 12-40jumps while you only take 2 JB and 1 system gate. There you go with that complicated vignette again. All of the dangers you listed for interceptors apply to t1 industrials too. I showed earlier that going from titan to titan is, frankly, a ludicrous waste of time compared to gate travel post-patch. It's two and a half times slower than taking gates in an interceptor and requires 32 pilots staged in boring lowsec crapholes to light cynos and run nerd cannons. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 890	Posted - 2014.10.10 06:55:00 - [52] - Quote Inslander Wessette wrote: T1 hauler: The 30 min training time , The cheap cost The reduction in fatigue. m^3 transported. Jumping from Titan1 to station --> warping station to Titan 2 --> Titan 2 to target location . Using key jump points, making it a lot safer . Sorry to say the adv out weight the small disadv they will have over interceptor travel of being a bit more faster . Edit : Lol i guess someone replied similarly above before me :p Ah, yes, training time -- truly the lynchpin of the experience. Woe is me -- the 10 days it takes to fly an interceptor is truly a barrier worth mentioning. And the cost -- lord have mercy, that 30m cost for an interceptor. All this time, I have been ignoring the ability of the interceptor to use a jump bridge. Sure, you can't use nearly as many, but the interceptor can use one on his journey with few adverse effects. This cuts his travel time down too! You're insane if you think that jumping from titan to titan without taking gates every once in a while is somehow faster than zipping down the pipe in a nullified interceptor. Five minutes per jump. Five minutes per jump. Please repeat that until it is burned into your brain. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 890	Posted - 2014.10.10 06:59:00 - [53] - Quote Kalissis wrote: Querns wrote: Kalissis wrote: FACT1: T1 industies can be learned in no time while interceptors can take up to 23d on a fresh char. FACT2: Smartbombing incoming Interceptors is very well possible, look at how rens pirates perfected smart bombing back then, a focused group will kill every interceptor crossing. -> Need warp offs, more time involed! FACT3: Well timed bombing runs will kill your interceptors too. FACT4: Wrong inti Fit -> caught FACT5: Bad skills -> caught FACT6: Pilot error -> caught FACT7: Bigger footprint -> intel! Now you dont need to use JBs but yes it will be faster not only on fleet ops but if you want to go in your NULL imperium from A->B. And I'm fully aware that you need to take 1 jump over to the next system (in best case) to get to the next JB, still no intercepter can make 12-40jumps while you only take 2 JB and 1 system gate. There you go with that complicated vignette again. All of the dangers you listed for interceptors apply to t1 industrials too. I showed earlier that going from titan to titan is, frankly, a ludicrous waste of time compared to gate travel post-patch. It's two and a half times slower than taking gates in an interceptor and requires 32 pilots staged in boring lowsec crapholes to light cynos and run nerd cannons. The only complicated thing here is that you are complete ignorant of FACTS. I'm not biased or have any hatred towards you or your group, your playstyle is not affecting me at all. But facts are facts and you are not even trying to argument them because you dont have any, because there are none against. Your facts are equally applicable to T1 industrials. Interceptors take 10d to train (racial frigate: 3d, evasive maneuvering 5: 7d) -- low training time, check. Smartbombing kills T1 industrials, check. Well timed bombing runs kill T1 industrials, check. Wrong T1 industrial fit = caught, check. Bad skills -> caught? T1 industrial, checkaroonie. Pilot error -> caught? You better believe T1 industrials get a check here. Bigger footprint? Logging on 16 titan pilots to bridge industrials around ISN'T a big footprint? Contact lists exist. T1 industrial footprint? Check. You can't selectively apply your "facts" to interceptors and not allow them to touch T1 industrials too. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 890	Posted - 2014.10.10 07:07:00 - [54] - Quote Kalissis wrote: Querns wrote: Kalissis wrote: [quote=Querns] The only complicated thing here is that you are complete ignorant of FACTS. I'm not biased or have any hatred towards you or your group, your playstyle is not affecting me at all. But facts are facts and you are not even trying to argument them because you dont have any, because there are none against. Your facts are equally applicable to T1 industrials. Interceptors take 10d to train (racial frigate: 3d, evasive maneuvering 5: 7d) -- low training time, check. Smartbombing kills T1 industrials, check. Well timed bombing runs kill T1 industrials, check. Wrong T1 industrial fit = caught, check. Bad skills -> caught? T1 industrial, checkaroonie. Pilot error -> caught? You better believe T1 industrials get a check here. Bigger footprint? Logging on 16 titan pilots to bridge industrials around ISN'T a big footprint? Contact lists exist. T1 industrial footprint? Check. You can't selectively apply your "facts" to interceptors and not allow them to touch T1 industrials too. All the risks do not apply if you are using titans, and even when you are using JBs they dont! Because a fleet cant camp JB as effective as gates (GUNS ON POSES!)!!! So now argument again that it apply, it does not! Wrong -- a single drag bubble >300km away from a POS cannot be targeted by pos guns automatically. Dragging folks off of a jump bridge is trivial. (Oh, and hey, interceptors ignore this.) Jump bridges can also be incapacitated. Having 16 titans to exclusively bridge t1 industrials around is safer, but it's the slowest possible option because of fatigue. At more than 6 jumps, you have to stick to the 5 minute per jump rule. Not taking gates means that you can't use gate connections that are >5LY apart to speed travel. You can't have both. Yet again, your vignette clashes with reality. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 890	Posted - 2014.10.10 07:08:00 - [55] - Quote Inslander Wessette wrote: Lol your sarcasm cant deny facts . Five min per jump . but my assurance to the destination is certain . yours is not . If you get podded to home base . do your jumps all over . Ahem yeah . Also my point is 5 mins is less of a fatigue when i'm taking an assured path . 10 mins all together to cross a lot of space. Exactly how much territory do you think is getting crossed in only 10 LY? Like, what is your scenario here? This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 891	Posted - 2014.10.10 07:18:00 - [56] - Quote Kalissis wrote: You have a ton of intel channels,do you really think a drag bubble on JB will go unnoticed? If on scan just use warp offs, EASY. Fact is not the same risk. Nearly none. But you are ignoring again the HUGE factor that you only need to be on the edge (defending) those gates between JBs rest is not important, while going gate to gate you need to cover way more systems. Again, not the same or equal, JB/TITANs way safer then using Interceports gate to gate. Hint: Dictors and hictors do not reveal their presence until they uncloak. They can lie in wait, and only drop a bubble at the moment when they would catch a lot of people. I guess I forgot to mention that dictor/hictor bubbles do the same thing. At sufficient distances from the POS, the guns can't reach you. Bubble, light cyno, in come fatigue-bonused covert ships to clean up defenseless T1 haulers in complete safety from the POS guns. Game over. I do like that you are resorting to the old, tired "intel channel" bit to try and make your point. Your playbook is starting to run a bit ragged. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 893	Posted - 2014.10.10 07:35:00 - [57] - Quote Inslander Wessette wrote: Querns wrote: Inslander Wessette wrote: Lol your sarcasm cant deny facts . Five min per jump . but my assurance to the destination is certain . yours is not . If you get podded to home base . do your jumps all over . Ahem yeah . Also my point is 5 mins is less of a fatigue when i'm taking an assured path . 10 mins all together to cross a lot of space. Exactly how much territory do you think is getting crossed in only 10 LY? Like, what is your scenario here? Around 15 jumps Vestouve to CT7. Seems like a JF could do this even better. http://evemaps.dotlan.net/jump/Anshar,444/Vestouve:CT7-5V (JDC4 now = JDC5 post-phoebe) This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 895	Posted - 2014.10.10 13:18:00 - [58] - Quote Yun Kuai wrote: Well yeah, when you follow goons mantra of just "dock up and blue ball them until they get disinterested and don't come back" of course it's not fun for anyone. The real fun is when you send the freighter through the gate first to make sure you get everyone agressed and then jump the rest of the fleet and cyno in all of your archons...oh wait....sorry...too soon? Yes, let's use our paper thin freighters holding up to 35b apiece as bait. Rational people don't let this happen. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 897	Posted - 2014.10.10 13:37:00 - [59] - Quote Speedkermit Damo wrote: Ilyana Nehla wrote: So everyone can jump with T1 haulers across new eden via bridge and reship in a stashed Super? mkay. 90% fatigue bonus for T1 industrials means that you know who can now jump subcap blobs long distances again. With minimal penalty. Nah. Interceptors are up to twice as fast as taking jump bridges in T1 industrials. YA0 to F2O is 30m by interceptor, and an hour by jump bridge. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 897	Posted - 2014.10.10 15:09:00 - [60] - Quote Current Habit wrote: CCP in charge of screwing their own power projection nerf. 1. Use barely nerfed JFs to create ship caches around the galaxy. 2. Travel in Haulers with JBs around half the map in 15min. 3. ??? 4. Power projection nerfed! /s Try an hour. Crossing our own territory in fatigue-bonused industrials takes an hour. Interceptors do it in 30 minutes, without using jump bridges or titan bridges. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 897	Posted - 2014.10.10 15:19:00 - [61] - Quote I miss you, Dinsdale. Please come back to us. These half-hearted attempts at tinfoil do not compare to your mastery. RIP Dinsdale Pirannha, it's been nearly a month since you posted. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 897	Posted - 2014.10.10 15:37:00 - [62] - Quote Kagura Nikon wrote: Querns wrote: Current Habit wrote: CCP in charge of screwing their own power projection nerf. 1. Use barely nerfed JFs to create ship caches around the galaxy. 2. Travel in Haulers with JBs around half the map in 15min. 3. ??? 4. Power projection nerfed! /s Try an hour. Crossing our own territory in fatigue-bonused industrials takes an hour. Interceptors do it in 30 minutes, without using jump bridges or titan bridges. You decided to cross the Universe.. but if your objective is to get to 10 LY away, depending on the part of the universe it will be faster trough the hualer. AND the hauler movement cannot be detected or intercepted so easily . Something that is MORE important military wise than the speed of movement itself. Compared to how catchable interceptors are? Hint: interceptors enjoy a role bonus that prevents them from being caught by bubbles. Hint two: Jump bridges are confined to one per system. This means you have to take gates in between. Jump bridges provide static routes through space, which can be discerned beforehand and camped. Interceptors can vary their route to avoid the infinitesimal dangers they do face while traveling. Why aren't you all focusing your efforts on the interceptor instead? It just boggles the mind that so much effort is going into trying (poorly, I might add) to prove one edge case where a T1 industrial might have an edge, when you could be attacking the root of the problem instead. I suspect the motives here are disingenuous and have more to do with maintaining the supremacy of interceptors than they do with the surface goal, but that could just be paranoia talking. I don't know for sure. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 897	Posted - 2014.10.10 15:48:00 - [63] - Quote CCP Greyscale wrote: Tiberizzle wrote: a bonus to covert jump portal fatigue is stupid bomber siegefleets are one of the most effective tools in the sov null strategic toolbox and nearly everyone has a combat T3 doctrine, which can carry a depot and refit in space to a minimal mass covert/nullified travel fit pretty much the absolute last thing the game needs is everything except low-counterability, non-content-generating coward strategies and convenience features to be kneecapped in the name of nerfing force projection while the most egregious examples of content avoidance tactics are buffed stratospherically This isn't the only change we're making to bombers in this release. Bombers aren't really the issue to which he refers. Bombers are pretty easy to destroy. It's the other stuff you can stuff into a covert jump portal, such as covert strategic cruisers, and the blackops battleships themselves. (Yes, you can bridge blackops BS in lieu of using their built-in jump drives -- it eats a lot of fuel, but the 50% reduction in fatigue makes it worthwhile.) It seems somewhat misleading to announce broad reductions in power to jumping and bridging, while maintaining (and, in fact, augmenting!) the power of the blackops BS drop in the same breath. Most of this has to do with the range -- that they enjoy an outsized range bonus seems too powerful, especially in concert with their reduced fatigue. I can make the same arguments about Jump Freighters too, but I get why you're special casing them -- the state of nullsec industry is such that the umbilical cord to empire cannot yet be cut, and that it's a work in progress. I'm not HAPPY about it, but I understand why you're doing it. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 897	Posted - 2014.10.10 16:03:00 - [64] - Quote Yun Kuai wrote: Rational people wouldn't put all their eggs in one basket either but hey you guys just keep doing what you're doing. See that right there is the problem with you null bears, you are exactly the kind of people who expect easy, instant gratification...moving that kind of value, I.e. 35bil a piece, should never have anything but beyond impossible tagged to it. The fact that you can move that kind of value from highsec out to nullsec with such ease just validates the point that it should be significantly harder and put at significantly higher risk. Here's a novel idea, given the size of freighters and the massive cargo hold of them, why not take into consideration all of the m3 of the contents being moved inside the freighter in addition to the freighters mass. It would make Titan bridging freighters or having them jump through a JB cost a about a billion in fuel. It's rather ironic that you used the word "egg," because an egg is exactly what I meant by 35b -- the top tier outpost upgrade platform (the monument) is a single item that is 750k m^3 and costs 14.4b, and it looks like an egg when you deploy it in space. You have no choice but to use freighters to get this item into nullsec. You have to put all your egg (singular) into one basket in this case. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 898	Posted - 2014.10.10 16:07:00 - [65] - Quote I would say that it isn't so much any particular rivulet of entitlement making us pack so much value into a freighter as it is actual game mechanics forcing us to do so. But, hey -- don't let me stop you from spouting a completely uninformed opinion that falls flat in the face of reality. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 900	Posted - 2014.10.10 16:39:00 - [66] - Quote Speedkermit Damo wrote: Retar Aveymone wrote: would one of the many idiots who think an industrial through jump bridges will ever be faster than a taxi interceptor post a video proving it i look forward to the utter lack of videos as you discover an interceptor will always be faster in any reasonable situation Can interceptors carry ships, fittings and ammo in their cargo bays? No, but jump freighters can. They're much more efficient at the task, too. Also, you can't have it both ways -- the travel Wreathe being posted here has a staggering 13k m^3 cargo. Deep Space Transports can better manage the hauling needs, but they are extremely slow to align and warp, even when fit for the task. (Doing this, incidentally, comes at a significant cost to their ability to tank and travel.) This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 900	Posted - 2014.10.10 16:50:00 - [67] - Quote CCP Greyscale wrote: Retar Aveymone wrote: CCP Greyscale wrote: - Battle rorqual -- Lots of cross-training for questionable value and the certainty that we'll nerf it anyway -- Reduced/removed drone bonus just out of curiosity let us suppose the battle rorqual fleet was deployed how long do you think we'd have to play around with it before it got nerfed :sun: Depends how funny we found it, I think. What kind of funny are we talking here? Like, does it count if we paint clowns on the side of the rorqual? This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 900	Posted - 2014.10.10 17:12:00 - [68] - Quote Drak Fel wrote: So basically what you're saying is, don't do anything that can give you an advantage or we will nerf it to the ground. Not much of a sandbox. I'd say it's more "expect something that gives an outsized, game-breaking advantage to get toned down." This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 900	Posted - 2014.10.10 17:19:00 - [69] - Quote Drak Fel wrote: Querns wrote: Drak Fel wrote: So basically what you're saying is, don't do anything that can give you an advantage or we will nerf it to the ground. Not much of a sandbox. I'd say it's more "expect something that gives an outsized, game-breaking advantage to get toned down." So the eventual goal seems to be that only numbers will determine the outcome of fights. Player skill and the willingness of one side to risk more by flying more expensive ships should be negated as much as possible. Ah, but the addition of fatigue adds mobility to the picture. Attacking simultaneously at disparate portions of the large empire you wish to weaken will help you degrade the numerical advantage of a defender. Also, I'd hardly consider large supercapital gangs in the sizes that you and yours and mine and ours field in TYOOL 2014 to be at significant risk. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 900	Posted - 2014.10.10 17:30:00 - [70] - Quote Drak Fel wrote: He mentioned nerfing carrier roaming to. Just what are people like me supposed to train now and do with all our isk? I'm sure you can find something more fulfilling than "grinding out the isk to buy a supercapital, then leaving it mostly logged off, acting as an instrument of terror towards any that would oppose you simply by the dint of its existence," but I don't know what turns your crank, specifically. Me, personally, I like building empires. Maybe you guys might like doing that too? You've got a month before the jump nerfs make it moderately harder to do so -- you guys can probably get started on that now. Stick to the space in the south and east -- we have no desire for it. Should be a lot easier to take and hold. (Note that the backhanded comment about logged off supercaps is in no way intended to impugn you and yours -- we do it, too. We're both guilty of this.) This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 900	Posted - 2014.10.10 17:31:00 - [71] - Quote Cyrus Ildemar wrote: still no cap on the fatigue though? Can still reach the month or year mark for fatigue, no? Fatigue is capped at a month. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 900	Posted - 2014.10.10 17:35:00 - [72] - Quote Just to clarify -- I think supercaps will still be plenty relevant post-Phoebe. Hell, I'm having a Hel built right now. It will be babby's first supercapital ship. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 902	Posted - 2014.10.10 22:15:00 - [73] - Quote Irya Boone wrote: now nerf the number of ships which can Jump on a cyno please This doesn't do anything meaningful. The ships that cyno in can light their own cynos, allowing more people through, who can light their OWN cynos, and so on. It just adds extra tedium for no real benefit. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 903	Posted - 2014.10.11 04:08:00 - [74] - Quote xXThe EntityXx wrote: I hope you guys realize that these changes still do not allow the supply of anything to Venal unless you own Tribute, essentially making it SOV space rather than NPC nullsec. The shortest jump available is 10.028 ly, just outside the range of a JF. Close, but keep trying. There's actually a way in under the 10LY range. I guess I could TELL you, but what would be the fun in that? This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 904	Posted - 2014.10.11 19:59:00 - [75] - Quote Sigras wrote: 6 years ago - Jump freighters didnt exist and null logistics were much more difficult (say hello to POS sov warfare before fuel blocks) somehow null sec empires limped along, its not like BoB or fortress delve was a thing... Jump freighters did not exist, but carriers did -- and carriers, in that time, could hold assembled ships with any kind of cargo in them in their Ship Maintenance Bays. This allowed carriers to hold a significant amount of items, pretty close to how much Jump Freighters can hold today. In fact, Jump Freighters were added at the same time the carrier's ability to have loaded ships in its SMB was removed. The first supercarrier that Goonswarm built was to be used as a logistics vessel. In short, for a significant portion of the game's existence, jumping of large volumes of goods was possible. And let's not even talk about using dreadnoughts to do roughly the same thing (because I forget exactly how it worked and when it stopped working.) This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 910	Posted - 2014.10.13 22:52:00 - [76] - Quote Anthar Thebess wrote: Can we get some new nullsec gate connections that could shift current universe a bit? For example Stain to North lowsec, Venal to south lowsec, or something that will shakeup some of the local travel routes, and will make some of the space more viable for the living , making at the same time some dead ends more viable. Something from my own yard. Total dead end : http://evemaps.dotlan.net/jump/Moros,044/HED-GP:ZDYA-G ( i know that nothing will survive this trip, bit this is just to point some stuff). Can we get some new gates that will bring this part of space back to life, especially after the change : Something like : YE17-R <>ZDYA-G This dead end pocket after those changes will be safe haven for all ratting people, and just by adding new gate you are creating something that will thrive , while it will be still cut off from any higsec or lowsec. Venal doesn't need this. It has a perfectly serviceable route that avoids all conquerable 0.0. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 910	Posted - 2014.10.13 23:08:00 - [77] - Quote Skyler Hawk wrote: Querns wrote: Venal doesn't need this. It has a perfectly serviceable route that avoids all conquerable 0.0. A route for capitals in general, or just one for JFs? Just one for JFs. All other capitals are pretty screwed at getting to npc 0.0 in general. IIRC, only Syndicate, Outer Ring, and NPC Pure Blind remain in range from lowsec. However, other capitals can fit cloaks, and can defend themselves if attacked (to varying degrees of success.) For example, I never hesitate to mid a rorqual in unfriendly space, even if there is nowhere to dock or no POS shield in which to hide, because the rorqual has a cloak. The JF is largely defenseless. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 910	Posted - 2014.10.13 23:49:00 - [78] - Quote Sgt Ocker wrote: Querns wrote: Venal doesn't need this. It has a perfectly serviceable route that avoids all conquerable 0.0. You keep saying that but it keeps coming up as an issue. I can't find it and obviously others can't either. Venal is bordered by Branch,Deklein, Tribute and Perrigen Falls How about put (it) up or shutup. Okay, okay, fine. I can't believe none of you figured this out. The trick is to stop thinking "lowsec." You actually want to look to the west, to NPC Pure Blind. http://evemaps.dotlan.net/jump/Moros,444/Aunenen:5ZXX-K:H-PA29 (note: JDC4 dread today = JDC5 JF post-phoebe) I'd use a different starting point than Aunenen, personally, but there's a couple of lowsec border systems in range of 5ZXX that you can use. From H-PA, you can hit every other station in Venal. This route takes you into Venal without having to mid in potentially unfriendly conquerable 0.0. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 913	Posted - 2014.10.14 15:41:00 - [79] - Quote Moloney wrote: xttz wrote: Moloney wrote: Ccp, for the love of God, please grow a pair end ensure that there is n't a bloody obvious workaround to your up coming jump distance changes. Power blocks are simply going to have taxi alts to move / swap out pilots to move caps. The change is utterly useless unless it cannot be circumvented with the usual player ingenuity/exploitation. So what you're saying is that Interceptors need a nerf?!?! Learn to read or go get mittens to read it for you if all intelligence in your coalition is in one member. But since it would be a heavily propaganda influenced recitation here is the statement in less words: Attach equal cooldown to pilots and ship. Why do I need to incur any jump fatigue at all? Interceptors cover territory using gates only faster than a fatigue-bonused ship does taking jump bridges at any meaningful distance, and do it much more safely to boot. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 925	Posted - 2014.10.17 14:58:00 - [80] - Quote Has any thought been given to trading the Rorqual's drone damage bonus for a 10LY range? This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 925	Posted - 2014.10.17 15:40:00 - [81] - Quote elitatwo wrote: Querns wrote: Has any thought been given to trading the Rorqual's drone damage bonus for a 10LY range? Is it just me or do others also see that Rorquals need to be nerfed? This gigantic mining ops boat is in every fleet, no matter what and makes all mining barges and exhumers why too strong for the game. The way the Rorqual adds to the mining madness all over nullsec and now even in lowsec must be stopped. Yea, yea, I know, e2 is raving over miners and wants stability for Orca boosted mining ops and sounds like a carebear (with guns). Maybe I am. I have been a carebear for about five years before I changed my mind- oh well someone else changed my stand on pvp in general and after smelling blood the first time it is something you do not want to get rid of. Anyhow, a tiny bit of 'carebear' still exists and some of my adventures to low or nullsec could not have been done without mining or level 4 highsec missions :P:P:P:P:P:P Now back to this monstrosity. The Rorqual and the insane combat abilities that ship has makes miners in all soverentiy based super-mega-tidy fleets unbeatable. Something must be done. This is somewhat offtopic, but I feel it is worth mentioning. I'll probably repost this in the (eventual) rorqual balance thread, especially if the rorqual's bonuses are untouched. I actually agree with this, broadly -- the rorqual's bonuses roughly double the output of a single miner. When we talk about mining ISK / hr, you always factor in maximum rorqual gang boosts, because you'd be a fool not to do the one thing that doubles your mining output. The third person invited to a mining fleet should always be a rorqual booster; he has the largest effect on your ISK / hr. I'd like to see mining throughput tilted more strongly towards the mining ship by removing some of the power of the rorqual's boosts and giving it to mining barges instead. This improves isk / hr for the folks who haven't had the better part of a year to train leadership skills and rorqual piloting skills (which is, invariably, the newer players.) This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 932	Posted - 2014.10.20 17:26:00 - [82] - Quote So I'd like to bring up a slightly different point -- something that, to the best of my knowledge, hasn't been mentioned before: missing lowsec gate connections. This primarily concerns combat capitals; those limited to five lightyears' range. The goal of the long distance travel changes is to make taking gates be, in general, faster than jumping for capital ships. However, this is predicated on the availability of corridors for capital ships to travel in the first place. While most of lowsec is reasonably interconnected, there exist three exceptions to this rule. Namely, sections of lowsec in southern Aridia/Khanid, Tash-Murkon, and Derelik are completely isolated from the rest of lowsec and REQUIRE at least one jump to traverse. The inaccessibility of these regions via lowsec-gate-only corridor range from relatively easy to overcome (Aridia's inaccessibility is the fault of a single highsec island system, Sazilid) to punishing (all traffic to lowsec Tash-Murkon must jump in and out a single system, Mai.) These regions represent a very important strategic staging location for assaulting the regions of Delve, Querious, and Providence with the capital ships needed to wage modern warfare. I'm not trying to suggest that ALL systems in lowsec be interconnected with each other, but having large pockets of strategically crucial lowsec be inaccessible outside of jumping does not feel right to me. With this in mind, my question becomes does CCP consider large sections of inaccessible lowsec an issue? If so, I'd be happy to suggest some fixes to the problem. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 932	Posted - 2014.10.20 17:52:00 - [83] - Quote Serendipity Lost wrote: The goal of long distance travel changes IS to limit force projection and its various aspects. It IS NOT "to make taking gates be, in general, faster than jumping capital ships. Your premise is wrong. It sounds like you're complaining that you have to make one jump because there are HS systems blocking you from gate to gate travel?? Make the one jump and forget about it. It looks like CCP just created 3 areas of new and interesting fun. Actually, it's not. From the long distance travel changes devblog: Quote: We are going to allow capital ships to use gates in lowsec/nullsec, and we are aiming to make gate-to-gate travel take less time than jump travel over distances of more than ~20 LY. We've run simulations for capital ships travelling between arbitrary pairs of systems, and settled on the target movement speed of no less than 3 minutes per lightyear for travel over 20 LY. This should allow us to bring about the main change we want to see GÇô less sustained use of jump travel GÇô while still preserving its value for short bursts of movement. I feel that the issue I've brought up is in the same spirit as the section I've quoted. Having these natural barriers in place and forcing you to accrue fatigue just to get into an area seems counterproductive. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 938	Posted - 2014.10.21 18:28:40 - [84] - Quote Sven Viko VIkolander wrote: Querns wrote: So I'd like to bring up a slightly different point -- something that, to the best of my knowledge, hasn't been mentioned before: missing lowsec gate connections. This primarily concerns combat capitals; those limited to five lightyears' range. The goal of the long distance travel changes is to make taking gates be, in general, faster than jumping for capital ships. However, this is predicated on the availability of corridors for capital ships to travel in the first place. While most of lowsec is reasonably interconnected, there exist three exceptions to this rule. Namely, sections of lowsec in southern Aridia/Khanid, Tash-Murkon, and Derelik are completely isolated from the rest of lowsec and REQUIRE at least one jump to traverse. The inaccessibility of these regions via lowsec-gate-only corridor range from relatively easy to overcome (Aridia's inaccessibility is the fault of a single highsec island system, Sazilid) to punishing (all traffic to lowsec Tash-Murkon must jump in and out a single system, Mai.) These regions represent a very important strategic staging location for assaulting the regions of Delve, Querious, and Providence with the capital ships needed to wage modern warfare. I'm not trying to suggest that ALL systems in lowsec be interconnected with each other, but having large pockets of strategically crucial lowsec be inaccessible outside of jumping does not feel right to me. With this in mind, my question becomes does CCP consider large sections of inaccessible lowsec an issue? If so, I'd be happy to suggest some fixes to the problem. Except the relative isolation of some low sec system is a good thing. Low sec doesn't exist merely as a staging point for null blocs, or do you not realize other people have vastly different playstyles, such as living in low sec pockets? The game isn't balanced around capitals as the universal end-game; that much should be obvious from the jump changes. I wrote a blog post about this when the changes were announced because of how good of a change this is for low sec, making some pockets even more isolated: http://evelostfound.blogspot.com/2014/10/phoebe-madness.html There are other problems in your post as well. Just because a general goal of the jump changes is to encourage capitals to take gates (as well as not travel so far, in general) does not mean that, therefore, low sec pockets should to be connected to others by gates. Your post contradicts itself when it says that such low sec pockets are "completely isolated" and "inaccessible"--but you can still jump there. What you mean to say is that some systems are now less convenient for you to use to as staging points for logistics into null, to which the appropriate response is, "Good." You're vastly over-evaluating the scope of my suggestions as well as the intended goal. I'm not trying to force interconnectivity between ALL lowsec systems -- just these three particular areas. These particular examples represent a huge swathe of systems; one could hardly consider them "pockets" nor representative of the sort of utopian small gang microclimates you're lionizing. Besides -- adding more potential for gate travel adds lots of content. Imagine a group of vulnerable dreadnoughts traveling through your stomping grounds, with you and yours at the ready to gank a straggler. People often complain about how dead lowsec is; how could additional traffic NOT be desired? Additionally, use of the terms "inaccessible" was always predicated by "gate travel" throughout the entire post. Under no circumstances did I imply that they were also inaccessible by jumping. If they had been, I would have mentioned that as well -- however, during my research, I failed to find a single area that was unaccessible by jump OR gate, so I left that point out due to its gross inaccuracy. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 938	Posted - 2014.10.21 19:01:29 - [85] - Quote Dwissi wrote: I had as well answered to that part - but i didnt quote you so you might have missed more arguments against your suggestion - so i repeat them here: Making the eve universe a 'uniform' place is wrong to start with. Regional differences in appearance and nature, differences in reachability and traffic - all that has to stay to keep Eve a diverse and interesting universe. By uni forming everything in Eve conflicts become obsolete - by keeping diversity and areas that are worth more than others constant conflict is kind of pre-programmed. Not every system HAS to be reachable by jumps - its actually very healthy if they are not to keep the diversity most players want. The argument about diversity like this is very romantic, but it falls flat due to the fact that it doesn't actually exist, today. Right now, the current range of capital ships is such that no part of lowsec actually meets these requirements. If I and my closest one thousand friends wanted to take a weekend trip to an isolated lowsec pocket, move in, and put cars up on cinder blocks, it'd be trivial for us to do so. (This is not a threat; the vagaries of the current political climate make this particularly infeasible anyways as we have a multi-front war that we are currently fighting. Just take it as an example of how things are today. This also neatly discounts the "conflict becomes obsolete" argument.) The diversity you speak of is being manufactured, from whole cloth, by the jump range reduction and the introduction of fatigue. As such, this future diversity is not yet set in stone. If this proto-diversity was sacrosanct, then we wouldn't have seen the easing of the jump freighter range from five lightyears to ten lightyears. I was particularly saddened by this revelation, having spent a significant amount of time optimizing for it and finding ways to use it to my advantage. (But I digress.) I find it difficult to take seriously an argument that denounces the change on the grounds of a vignette that, by the very physical reality of how the game works, cannot possibly have taken place, as well as a vignette that has already been encroached upon once by revisions to the proposed changes in question. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 938	Posted - 2014.10.21 19:33:05 - [86] - Quote Dwissi wrote: First of all - thanks for agreeing with my main point. Its diverse enough as it is - and the jump part is about to be changed to ensure that even more. To use a different analogy for your argument: The universe is as it is - if you dont like the climate of where you live you wont seriously consider moving the sun around or stop the earth rotation. But your proposed change is exactly that. We are not able to create gates (yet) but will one day. Until then live with pockets and secluded areas. High sec and low sec are not areas that are created to be a pinball for null sec's interest but their completely own areas. They cater many people with their complete own playstyle and requirements. No -- my point is exactly the opposite. There IS no diversity in lowsec along the veins that you describe, today, due to the current ability for capital ships to travel. Even if you don't use capital ships directly to participate in fights or to consume PVE content, capital ships are widely used to move people, sub-capital ships, and materiel to and from areas at a rate much more effective than taking gates. They affect everything that players do, and make current gate topography completely unimportant. Your analogy is also flawed because the jump range reduction and addition of jump fatigue are doing exactly as you describe -- we are moving the sun, stopping the rotation of the earth, etc. by restricting the ability to move. I can't agree that doing this is right, while simultaneously denouncing the addition of the odd gate or two to make the new style of capital movement possible. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 938	Posted - 2014.10.21 19:39:08 - [87] - Quote Dwissi wrote: The universe is your box - the rest are the tools that reside inside the box. One tool is going to be changed - not the box. Your suggestion is to change the box affecting many more tools than just your puny jumpdrives. The box is not sacrosanct. It can be changed. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 938	Posted - 2014.10.21 20:02:50 - [88] - Quote Dwissi wrote: Or to use a picture again: You started a game of chess with a given set of pieces and a given board. One doesnt change the board constantly just because one single piece has some flaws - you change the rules or the piece itself. Sorry, but your metaphors are pretty weak. The universe's geographical layout isn't sacrosanct. It just isn't. They've added regions and gates since version 1.0. No amount of metaphor changes that. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 938	Posted - 2014.10.21 20:18:41 - [89] - Quote Dwissi wrote: Well - those changes have obviously been the source of a lot of evil. But lets play along with your theory and request. Then please CCP - remove Jita from the universe if you change any access between null and empire. Disregarding the utter absurdity of your logical leap from "adding a stargate" to "removing solar systems", this would do precisely nothing. Jita is not special; another system would easily take its place. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 938	Posted - 2014.10.21 20:24:47 - [90] - Quote Dwissi wrote: Querns wrote: Dwissi wrote: Well - those changes have obviously been the source of a lot of evil. But lets play along with your theory and request. Then please CCP - remove Jita from the universe if you change any access between null and empire. Disregarding the utter absurdity of your logical leap from "adding a stargate" to "removing solar systems", this would do precisely nothing. Jita is not special; another system would easily take its place. Then its as relevant as your request - thats why i made it. I don't follow -- it's difficult to place blatant hysteria on the same shelf as my suggestion. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 938	Posted - 2014.10.21 21:15:36 - [91] - Quote Dwissi wrote: Stacking people from your alliance against any kind of different idea wont help. We all understand by now that you follow the same ideas and trends inside your group. And there are other groups who simply look at things differently and will continuously oppose any suggestions you make. Because you dont try to ruin my game - but THE game ;) I accept your ad hominem as surrender. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 938	Posted - 2014.10.21 21:16:47 - [92] - Quote Dwissi wrote: Capitals are a null sec deal and any changes to a null sec ship class should not affect anything else except maybe a meta level. Its the first change of many to come but you flood this topic constantly with changes that basically point to keep as much of the current meta as possible by changing other aspects of the game. Uh, this is expressly incorrect. Capital ships can be and are actively used in lowsec. e: grammar This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 938	Posted - 2014.10.21 22:04:20 - [93] - Quote Dwissi wrote: Querns wrote: Dwissi wrote: Capitals are a null sec deal and any changes to a null sec ship class should not affect anything else except maybe a meta level. Its the first change of many to come but you flood this topic constantly with changes that basically point to keep as much of the current meta as possible by changing other aspects of the game. Uh, this is expressly incorrect. Capital ships can be and are actively used in lowsec. e: grammar I never doubted or ignored that fact - but they are a ship class that has its roots in null sec. I am sure you are old enough to recall when and why they where introduced. The main argument still stands - changing the jump capability of them has no relation at all to a change of traffic routes and gates between null sec and low sec. At least not for the current stage - if that becomes feasible at a later stage when more changes are being introduced is a different story. You're delusional. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 938	Posted - 2014.10.21 22:17:11 - [94] - Quote Perhaps I should elucidate on the previous post I've made. Your argument is "because I think that capital ships 'have their roots in nullsec', despite the fact that capital ships are used daily in lowsec, no accomodations could possibly be made to ease their use in a new environment where jumping is heavily penalized." Just... wow. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation 938	Posted - 2014.10.21 22:56:59 - [95] - Quote Dwissi wrote: Querns wrote: Perhaps I should elucidate on the previous post I've made. Your argument is "because I think that capital ships 'have their roots in nullsec', despite the fact that capital ships are used daily in lowsec, no accomodations could possibly be made to ease their use in a new environment where jumping is heavily penalized." Just... wow. I dont think - i know. Rephrasing my words fits very much to your post right before this one. Maybe a few moments spend in the Evelopedia brings you up to common ground and reduces the 'wow' effect for you. Even though citing Evelopedia is the height of folly and irredeemably renders any point you have meaningless, I'll take this one anyways. The capital ships entry on evelopedia does, in no way, mention that capital ships "have their roots in nullsec," neither by direct quote nor content of writing. The only thing it even mentions about nullsec is a couple of anecdotes about player events. Your link does nothing to bolster your own point, and that's before you throw in the incredulity of using it as a primary source. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

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