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A semi-vet's take on the Learning grind.

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Hitomi Ayame Amarr Royal Knights of Khanid	Posted - 2006.08.13 16:37:00 - [1] Let me first state that I have all my Advanced Learning skills trained to level four, and am approaching 8 mil SP. I'm not a new player going "omg I w4nt m0r3 skillz! n00bz vs. vets waaah!" I also realize that SP is not the be-all end-all of EvE. Nobody can deny that it counts for something, though. This was posted in another thread by another player, and I thought it quite summarily expresses some general feelings on a subject that catches a lot of flak around here, the Learning skills. Originally by: Aramendel While you do not "have" to train the learning skills is correct, it's also a pointless argument. You do not have to train any skill. You could train only motion prediction in the navigation tree and fly an interceptor - but it also would be plain out stupid because you would then utterly suck with one. Similary, if you want to play EVE for longer than 6 months you basically have to train the learning skills, because otherwise your progression will be very slow. There is a reason most people recommend to train them AFAP - it is simply a very good idea. But it is for new players also a huge boring timesink. And a rather pointless one. I would not be suprised if many new players loose interest in EVE during their learning skill phase because their char is effeciently not advancing then. IMO it would help new players big time if new chars would start with the basic learning skills maxxed. I do not really see any reason how that could have anything but positive effects. I endorse this position wholeheartedly. The Learning grind is just that: a pointless grind that everyone basically has to slog through just because. It's probably the single worst part of the EvE learning system. If, in the next patch, CCP said: "Every new player has to spend a month without training anything or end up sucking" would anyone support that? Because that's essentially exactly what the Learning grind does, and I'm almost positive Aramendel is right and that it is losing otherwise good, competent players who just don't see the point in sitting around for a month before they can actually play the game. I say max everyone's attributes, (+12 points on top of the starting attributes) make new players start with maxxed attributes, and refund everyone one-and-a-half to twice the SP they have invested in Learning skills. (1.5-2 x to accomodate for time trained with lower attributes) Everyone wins: the rookie doesn't have to sit through a long, dull grind and can start training right away, anyone who's already working on Learning gets the grind finished up right away, and everyone who's already trained the Learning tree (myself included) get's a few million free skillpoints to use on something useful, plus an extra point to every attribute (since nobody realistically trains Advanced Learning to 5). Plus, CCP likely retains more subscriptions, which means they make more money and can release more content! So counterarguments? I can predict a few. Q: "I had to do it so they should too!" A: My great-great-great-ish grandfather had to have his leg amputated without anesthesia because he got gangrene from a bullet wound. Does that mean they shouldn't have put me under to take out my wisdom teeth? Just because something was once bad is no reason not to improve it. Q: "Everyone knows that SP don't matter at all!" A: That's bull and you know it. If SP didn't matter, why would anyone bother training the Learning skills in the first place? I bet you trained them. I know I did. Why? Because SP does matter. Also, if SP really doesn't matter, then why not do this? Q: "Oh noes! Your solution helps n00bs a tiny bit more than vets!!1!elevntyone." A: This is probably the most fair and balanced solution I could come up with, but maybe it's not perfect, and maybe a few new players will benefit more than a few vets. So? If I said I'd give you $50 and another guy $60, would you take it? Q: "Go back to WoW." A: No, you go. - - - The Royal Knights of Khanid are now recruiting! Step up and serve God and Khanid today!
Jenny Spitfire Caldari LoneStar Industries Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.08.13 16:44:00 - [2] Originally by: Hitomi Ayame I say max everyone's attributes, (+12 points on top of the starting attributes) make new players start with maxxed attributes, and refund everyone one-and-a-half to twice the SP they have invested in Learning skills. (1.5-2 x to accomodate for time trained with lower attributes) If you could propose a way to do this refund with minimal hassle, I am sure people would take this more seriously. ---------------- Cruelty is God's way of showing kindness.
Audry Hepbern	Posted - 2006.08.13 16:48:00 - [3] I have one character with over 10 million SP and two with over 30 million SP. The plain fact is that if you want to experience as many aspects of the game as possible, you need to train skills and if you are going to train skills, you'd better train learning skills first. However, if I remember back to the last character I trained up properly (ie. while playing with him, rather than just training him and then using him later), I set priorities on which skills I want to learn, based on what I was doing. So for example, I might go up to Mining V then do another notch on a learning skill, then do another gameplay skill, etc. - interleaving them appropriately. The solution then is NOT to tell people they need to train up learning skills to level 4 advanced first, the solution is for them to train what they want, when they want and then as a bonus train up another learning skill when they feel they need it.
Arkanor Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2006.08.13 16:52:00 - [4] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Originally by: Hitomi Ayame I say max everyone's attributes, (+12 points on top of the starting attributes) make new players start with maxxed attributes, and refund everyone one-and-a-half to twice the SP they have invested in Learning skills. (1.5-2 x to accomodate for time trained with lower attributes) If you could propose a way to do this refund with minimal hassle, I am sure people would take this more seriously. It would require Dev Magic to save the insane amount of GM intervention otherwise. All SP in learning skills are converted to "Free" SP and the learning skills are gone. Whenever you go to train a skill (does not apply on the one you are currently training until you tell it to train again, just in case you didnt want to use your "free" SP on that.) SPs are debited from your "SP Bank" and the skill is learned as much as possible with the SPs in your bank. When your "Bank" is empty, your training works again as normal. Originally by: Ghosthowl WoW = hardcore paladins smashin dat face. Originally by: HippoKing I just cried, you know that?
Jenny Spitfire Caldari LoneStar Industries Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.08.13 16:58:00 - [5] Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 13/08/2006 16:59:00 Originally by: Arkanor Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Originally by: Hitomi Ayame I say max everyone's attributes, (+12 points on top of the starting attributes) make new players start with maxxed attributes, and refund everyone one-and-a-half to twice the SP they have invested in Learning skills. (1.5-2 x to accomodate for time trained with lower attributes) If you could propose a way to do this refund with minimal hassle, I am sure people would take this more seriously. It would require Dev Magic to save the insane amount of GM intervention otherwise. All SP in learning skills are converted to "Free" SP and the learning skills are gone. Whenever you go to train a skill (does not apply on the one you are currently training until you tell it to train again, just in case you didnt want to use your "free" SP on that.) SPs are debited from your "SP Bank" and the skill is learned as much as possible with the SPs in your bank. When your "Bank" is empty, your training works again as normal. Obviously Dev magic is needed. You cant free SP and put them into bank and reallocate them elsewhere because skilling SP is a function of time and skill rank. How are you going to compensate those who have trained learning for years? IMHO, it is easily said than done. ---------------- Cruelty is God's way of showing kindness.
Mikal Drey Brutor tribe	Posted - 2006.08.13 16:58:00 - [6] hey hey what about if you had the ability to delete (untrain) skills but still keep the SP and have the points added to something else. this would help with some of the higher skills and let players untrain regretted skills. I can see how this would be open to abuse and with the altism that most players have there may be a sudden influx of dread pilots etc. anything CCP can do to increase training times or streamline the process would be welcome.
Ms rose	Posted - 2006.08.13 17:00:00 - [7] Why do people still feel the need to train all the learning skills to lvl5 in the first month? THAT is the main problem, all the noobs believe that they have to learn them right away or they will never be any good. The solution? Stop telling noobs that they have to do it all right away. 'Nuff said.
Labratory Rat	Posted - 2006.08.13 17:03:00 - [8] Not a bad idea. Needs the details working out. I've abandoned two alts because I got sick of how long it would take to get them useful.
Leumas Ebmocnud	Posted - 2006.08.13 17:05:00 - [9] The difficulty and time comsuming nature of gaining skillpoints is the very thing that keeps us coming back to the game, and keeps the money rolling in for CCP as a company. And to be honest with you, this is my sig.
Katura Amarr Victim Services	Posted - 2006.08.13 17:07:00 - [10] Originally by: Ms rose Why do people still feel the need to train all the learning skills to lvl5 in the first month? THAT is the main problem, all the noobs believe that they have to learn them right away or they will never be any good. The solution? Stop telling noobs that they have to do it all right away. 'Nuff said. Well said. ___________ Trader, Industrialist & Freedom Fighter.

Nerkal	Posted - 2006.08.13 17:15:00 - [11] Every vet managed to train without all the new fancy learning skills, so can you. And a new player dosnt _need_ to have all the learning skills to max, they can bee done on the go betwen other skills. A new player today can specc into certain builds spending their learning points and attributes far better than a vet could 3 years ago. Not to mention that skill attributes have been swithced around quite extensivily since launch rendering manny of the older players primary attributes crap. Id say anny new player starting today is at a far bigger advantage than the vets. A vet wont bee using his 60 million sp 100% of the time. Yet a new player can specc for a purpose and bee just as effective as that 60 mill vet inn anny given task. So to anny new players, reasearch and decide what you want to do with your char at early stage.
spurious signal Caldari Brainiacs	Posted - 2006.08.13 17:16:00 - [12] Originally by: Hitomi Ayame I say max everyone's attributes, (+12 points on top of the starting attributes) make new players start with maxxed attributes, and refund everyone one-and-a-half to twice the SP they have invested in Learning skills. (1.5-2 x to accomodate for time trained with lower attributes) Agree 100%. It's been requested before but not even acknowledged by CCP that this could even be a possible cause of them losing a lot of potential subscribers. regardless of whether or not someone gets told they "have to" do the learning skills first, a lot of people decide that it would be a good idea once they understand how skill training in EVE works. And then a lot of those people get bored before the skills finish and go play something more interesting. The real question is, do CCP want to increase the subscriber numbers to EVE?. I actually suspect that the answer to that might just be "no, not right now" due to lack of enough trained staff to provide good enough customer support. Just a hunch though.
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.13 17:24:00 - [13] People who tell new players to train all their learning skills first may be trying to help max that character, but they gimp their gaming experience. When you hit the high ranked skills they are useful, but before that they just delay the Eve experience. That is why players get frustrated. It isn't the system that is broken, it is the advice. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Jenny Spitfire Caldari LoneStar Industries Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.08.13 17:30:00 - [14] TBH, it isnt the noobs/newbs who are whining. It is the semi-vets and semi-noobs with alt accounts who are whining. ---------------- Cruelty is God's way of showing kindness.
Father Weebles Lost Dawn Technologies	Posted - 2006.08.13 17:46:00 - [15] I remember back about 4 months ago when i started learning V and all the advanced ones. To put it short, it sucked ass, and i was a smige away from quitting eve. Take out the learning skills. Max everybodys attributes, and give us "free" sp depending on how much was put into learning.
Plutoinum German Cyberdome Corp Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.08.13 17:58:00 - [16] Edited by: Plutoinum on 13/08/2006 17:58:50 No idea about this refund thing, personally I don't care much. But I've always agreed that the whole idea of advanced learning skills is bad for newbies. Newbies want to see progress in the beginning like a better frig, an industrial ship, a cruiser or so, but many vets tell them to do learning skills for several weeks in the beginning. If you tell a fresh newbie that he should better sacrifice some fun in the first month to profit from it later, then I believe that it doesn't make much sense to him. If I start with a new game, I expect to have an absolutely great experience in the first month. Learning skill grind like adv. skills up to level 4 is everything else but fun.
Neslo Gallente Four Horsemen	Posted - 2006.08.13 18:00:00 - [17] Leave the system how it is. Quote: Q: "I had to do it so they should too!" A: My great-great-great-ish grandfather had to have his leg amputated without anesthesia because he got gangrene from a bullet wound. Does that mean they shouldn't have put me under to take out my wisdom teeth? Just because something was once bad is no reason not to improve it. You had gangrene in your mouth? yes you should be put down. Counter arguement to this false logic is... Every Generation that wanted to learn something quicker... had to go to school. The higher the education... the more money you can make. The lower your education... the less you make. Learning skills are the same... the higher your learning skills the faster you train other skills (which in turn allows you to make more money faster) The lower your learning skills the slower and longer it takes to make money. Quote: Q: "Everyone knows that SP don't matter at all!" A: That's bull and you know it. If SP didn't matter, why would anyone bother training the Learning skills in the first place? I bet you trained them. I know I did. Why? Because SP does matter. Also, if SP really doesn't matter, then why not do this? Everyone knows that SP DO matter... BUT what doesn't matter is if you get to do every single aspect of Eve to the best of it's ability (the difference between a 6 million sp and a 40 million sp char) Infact a 6 million sp with the right guidance from the community could be more specialized than the 40 million and be a better refiner / miner / fighter... so in that sense.. SP DOESN'T matter... it's what / where you put your points when you do train. Quote: Q: "Oh noes! Your solution helps n00bs a tiny bit more than vets!!1!elevntyone." A: This is probably the most fair and balanced solution I could come up with, but maybe it's not perfect, and maybe a few new players will benefit more than a few vets. So? If I said I'd give you $50 and another guy $60, would you take it? The appeal stay in this game long term is that the longer you stay the more kewler better stuff you get to do. While we (vets) don't lose in your deal... we don't gain anything by you giving a leg up to newer players. Infact the newer players lose a sense of "when I was a newb.. we had to train whatever"... the Game already makes those situations go away. Look at the cost of a thorax in 2003 versus one now... the value of isk has MUCH less meaning to a new player than it did for us older players. Quote: Q: "Go back to WoW." A: No, you go. This isn't a question, it's a statment... so didn't need an answer by ya. From Ashes to Ashes... From Dust to Dust....
Eadoin Remontoire Caldari Spectral Armada Eternal Empire	Posted - 2006.08.13 18:55:00 - [18] Originally by: Mikal Drey hey hey what about if you had the ability to delete (untrain) skills but still keep the SP and have the points added to something else. this would help with some of the higher skills and let players untrain regretted skills. I can see how this would be open to abuse and with the altism that most players have there may be a sudden influx of dread pilots etc. anything CCP can do to increase training times or streamline the process would be welcome. I am for this, except I do not want the SP refund. I just want to clean my Character Sheet up... ...It was a different time way back when, now how it is now. I was young, naive, and I did my share of illicit activities. I am not afraid to admit I trained Defenders I. All the cool kids were doing it. I just wanted to fit in. I trained Destroyers I too, even though I fly Tech II Cruisers. I thought a Cormorant was going to fun. We didn't have the awareness programs that we have today to tell me how wrong I really was. At my worse I was selling my body for every R&D book I could get my hands on, only to train it for a moment, let the euphoria set it and move on to the next high I could find. The dark times that they were.
nahtoh Caldari Bull Industries	Posted - 2006.08.13 19:18:00 - [19] Originally by: Avon People who tell new players to train all their learning skills first may be trying to help max that character, but they gimp their gaming experience. When you hit the high ranked skills they are useful, but before that they just delay the Eve experience. That is why players get frustrated. It isn't the system that is broken, it is the advice. Well said, learning skills don't gimp you, you grinding exclusily them do... Still don't have the damm things fully trained up myself... ========= "I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem fix its self
Edania Caldari Ordo Adeptus Astartes	Posted - 2006.08.13 19:25:00 - [20] put rather simply you wish to remove some aspects of choice and complexity from the game im so ot for this

Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2006.08.13 19:28:00 - [21] Quote: Originally by: Aramendel IMO it would help new players big time if new chars would start with the basic learning skills maxxed. This is possibly the stupidest idea I have ever heard. For the state for the state for the state
Tobias Sjodin Caldari Ore Mongers	Posted - 2006.08.13 19:33:00 - [22] Originally by: Avon People who tell new players to train all their learning skills first may be trying to help max that character, but they gimp their gaming experience. When you hit the high ranked skills they are useful, but before that they just delay the Eve experience. That is why players get frustrated. It isn't the system that is broken, it is the advice. Q for the F'ing T! \\ contact me in-game for sig-purchase \
Eschwen Gas Giant Industries	Posted - 2006.08.13 19:47:00 - [23] Originally by: Mikal Drey what about if you had the ability to delete (untrain) skills but still keep the SP and have the points added to something else. this would help with some of the higher skills and let players untrain regretted skills. The ability to 'untrain' skills is a bit of a tricky one, since it will promote even greater attribute specialization than already exists today. Imagine I can untrain any existing skill and apply the SP to another skill of my choice. It would make sense, in order to maximize my gain of SP, to always train the skill I was best suited to learn according to my attributes (SP/hour), then untrain it and assign the points to skills where I would not have gained the SP so fast. As an Intaki myself, memory/intelligence skills train much faster than perception/willpower skills (even with implants), so of course I would always be training mem/intel skills and then transferring the SP over to perc/will skills. Regarding the learning skills themselves, I agree that the learning 'grind' is pretty harsh. Unfortunately a precedent has been set and it's difficult to change that now. Perhaps some of the 'simultaneous' training ideas that we've heard from the devs will help alleviate this to a small degree?
Ikthorn Balhar Caldari LoneStar Industries Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.08.13 19:48:00 - [24] While this may seem like a nice idea for some, it's really without merit. As some on the thread have already mentioned, no one is forcing the new player to train all his Learning skills to 5 and then the Advanced Learning ones. This is a choice they themselves make, and if they get bored, oh well. You will enjoy the game a lot more by simply training the Basic Learning skills to 4, go do other stuff when done, then resume the Learning training at a later date. This will allow you to have a more balanced gaming experience without thinking of it as a huge borefest. One thing that the OP seems to be overlooking is that this 'Learning grind' is actually the perfect time for the player to build up his isk and gear stash, to be able to afford the nice fancy gear and ships that he'll be training to later on, as well as learn the game mechanics. Seriously, what is the point on having every learning skill trained to 4 or 5, training for a T2 ship and guns in no-time (relatively), but then you realize that you don't have enough isk to afford it? We end up with a number of reimbursement petitions from whiners that lost their 'pride and joy' because they made some dumb mistake, so now it's CCP's 'duty' to reimburse them, like we're seeing lately on this very forum. Yah, right. In short, the training system doesn't need to be changed. EvE has been very successful because it is a game where you're required to actually put some thought into your efforts, not simply 'running outside and start hacking away at the lizards'. We don't need to change EvE simply to compensate for the mediocrity and the lack of patience of a vocal minority.
ching'sta Amarr	Posted - 2006.08.13 19:50:00 - [25] Well its good cash for ccp and most newb seems to be able to grind them without quiting the game. It ad's none to the gameing experience for the player besides faster learning in the end. I think ccp just needed to get more attribute points to players ingame for the game to develop faster and even i think its a wierd idea to just hand points out all of a sudden so they desided to make it a skill tree. I dont think they will do any changes, but i wish they did.
Byzan Zwyth	Posted - 2006.08.13 20:00:00 - [26] well I'm new to the game and the advice I keep getting is that if you think you are going to play eve for more than a couple months you will get a lot more out of the game if you work the learning skills first. Which is true so I dont think it's a case of people giving out bad advice. And I do agree that the learning tree is a bit of a pointless grind and does not help the newb experience ---------------------- Gallente Cruiser Pilot
Skraelingz Gallente Gallente Federal Bank	Posted - 2006.08.13 20:01:00 - [27] Coming from a noob of two weeks playtime here. It really isnt that bad, no seriously it isnt. Dont grind the learnings exclusivly thats a borderline retarded move. Isntead get each of em up to like 2 each (doesnt take any time), then get some fun stuff. Or heck get fun stuff while your online, then train learnings while offline (its what i do). Or while online and you have a quick skill to train train that switch to learning for a few minutes until you find somthing else you wanna train, go to sleep start your learnings overnight. This really isnt that horrid, just dont try and do every learning at once at the beginning. -----------------------------------------------
Dr Felonius Caldari The Starlight Society	Posted - 2006.08.13 20:37:00 - [28] Edited by: Dr Felonius on 13/08/2006 20:40:13 Originally by: Byzan Zwyth well I'm new to the game and the advice I keep getting is that if you think you are going to play eve for more than a couple months you will get a lot more out of the game if you work the learning skills first. Which is true so I dont think it's a case of people giving out bad advice. And I do agree that the learning tree is a bit of a pointless grind and does not help the newb experience If you think it's pointless, why do you think it's good advice? I always assumed I'd be in this game for the long haul, so I trained my learning skills aggessively at first, and then slacked off a bit. My notion was to keep about half my SP in learning until I had four of the advanced learning skills to at least a 3. By alternating learning and other skills I was able to increase my in-game capabilities while still investing in the future, just as I save some of my real life money for the future and spend the rest. Being told to go right for massive learning skills as newbie is absurd. You don't tell a recent college grad to put off all other spending until he has a house. You tell him to have fun but save a few bucks when he can. People should treat learning skills as that sort of investment.
nahtoh Caldari Bull Industries	Posted - 2006.08.13 20:41:00 - [29] Originally by: Byzan Zwyth well I'm new to the game and the advice I keep getting is that if you think you are going to play eve for more than a couple months you will get a lot more out of the game if you work the learning skills first. Which is true so I dont think it's a case of people giving out bad advice. And I do agree that the learning tree is a bit of a pointless grind and does not help the newb experience Your second point is why its crap advice... ========= "I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem fix its self
kurg Amarr Sha Kharn Corp Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.08.13 20:43:00 - [30] sigh.... just play the game... even the paranoid has real enemies...



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