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| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
DeODokktor
Caldari
Dark Templars
The Fonz Presidium
   |
Posted - 2006.08.16 08:20:00 -
[31]
Well, you said yourself that until ccp fix this you would do it this way. That's an admission that you know somethings wrong, and TBH when you realise you can put 1000 lab modules on 1 pos with them working like normal then you should see something is wrong.
I hope they ban the guy's who are really exploiting this, as I offer the same service but I have to figgure in fuel (you cant say it's the same fuel as my cpu and grid suck up fuel).
I have confirm'd this is a bug in the past and the gm's have asked for the information to not be spread.
I guess a unpublished bug that can see your pos go poof is okay for me to use since it's not posted in the forums by a dev?
----
WTB Aurora S bpo - Evemail me in game..
Scammed by "Not Superman" AKA "Nyphur" Then go visit the link |
Lt Widowmaker
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Posted - 2006.08.16 11:55:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Lt Widowmaker on 16/08/2006 11:55:17
so he is using a bug to run this IPO that may or may not get hem baned.
but when CCP fix's the bug, and he can only run 15 and no more, then how is he going to grow becouse right now with that many alts in his corp there is no way he can.
So he has no room to grow, so the investors will only get a MAX amount of isk per month and no more.
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Ricdic
Caldari
Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd
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Posted - 2006.08.16 12:39:00 -
[33]
 Originally by: Lt Widowmaker
So he has no room to grow, so the investors will only get a MAX amount of isk per month and no more.
Well I guess you are lucky you didn't invest then.
Thank you for your time
Insured Research and Production Services |
Ricdic
Caldari
Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd
|
Posted - 2006.08.16 12:49:00 -
[34]
Originally by: DeODokktor
Well, you said yourself that until ccp fix this you would do it this way. That's an admission that you know somethings wrong, and TBH when you realise you can put 1000 lab modules on 1 pos with them working like normal then you should see something is wrong.
Yes I believe it may be a bug. However I don't know this. Neither does anyone else. If you as you said, have spoken to a GM about this, I would like you to email the chatlog/petition text to me at [email protected]. Once I see this, and it is legit, I will remove excess labs from my POS. However, just saying that you have spoken to someone and they said it was wrong, isn't going to cut it.
Quote:
I have confirm'd this is a bug in the past and the gm's have asked for the information to not be spread.
Out of curiosity, how far in the past did you have this confirmed? And surely seeing as you have gone to the effort to find my thread and post your GM results, you can use www.eve-search.com to locate the other 10+ threads with people all saying they are doing exactly the same thing? Or you could fly around to the hundreds of other POS's doing the same thing. Fact is that i haven't seen notice of this being a bug, what I have seen is this being the norm for POS operations.
Hell, I have been informed that another IPO PRIG are doing the exact same thing. So why are we singling me out as being this amazing exploiter, when your corp is likely doing the same thing.
Quote:
I guess a unpublished bug that can see your pos go poof is okay for me to use since it's not posted in the forums by a dev?
Well, if GM's decide to 'poof' my POS without prior explanation of their actions etc, then I will be very annoyed. It would be understandable for them to stop the research, or give a timeframe that this must be fixed. But anything like you are suggesting would just be wrong, and would guarantee my petitions bouncing through. In the event that this did happen, and they destroyed X billions worth of my belongings, if petitions didn't fix the problems, I would repay investors and close my 4 accounts.
Time will tell. As people who aren't investing and have zero plans on investing, I ask that trolling be taken back to crime and punishment forums. I understand constructive critisism but "your pos is going poof" is a simple waste of space. This wasnt directly related to your post De0.
Insured Research and Production Services |
DeODokktor
Caldari
Dark Templars
The Fonz Presidium
|
Posted - 2006.08.16 13:28:00 -
[35]
If you feel I am trolling then please report it to isd.
For isd's wishing to remove this post then I suggest they actually just lock the thread as there's a strong support of "I will use this bug because ccp doesnt have public details of it posted".
----
WTB Aurora S bpo - Evemail me in game..
Scammed by "Not Superman" AKA "Nyphur" Then go visit the link |
Ricdic
Caldari
Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd
|
Posted - 2006.08.16 14:03:00 -
[36]
As soon as my petition in exploits has been answered, I will act accordingly. I don't see how this is so hard to understand??? You guys coming on here blaming me for doing this and that, when I am actively checking to make sure it is all legit. That is why I called it trolling, initially, it was brought to my attention that this may be an exploit. Since then, it has just been blaming and "hoping I get my account banned" and crap like that.
Insured Research and Production Services |
Ricdic
Caldari
Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd
|
Posted - 2006.08.16 16:39:00 -
[37]
Ok guys, my petition has been answered. I have been informed that this is a bug, therefore exploit. The GM thanked me for 'dobbing myself in'. I requested that we be given some time for current jobs to finish, standings to adjust etc so we can ie construct a second POS etc.
The GM accepted this request and has allowed us to fix this up of our own accord. He also advised that they would be looking to fix this in the next patch.
Therefore over the next week or two, CRA will be sending up a vote to determine whether a small portion of the capital raised should go towards a second POS, or whether we should restrict operations to one.
To those who advised me that this was/might be an exploit, I extend my gratitude. When putting these up, the thought never crossed my mind. Only when you guys started talking about it, I got to thinking that you may be correct. I think a lot of the comments were too harsh, but I will thank the fact that I was informed before GM intervention may have happened.
I also extend thanks to the GM involved as he didn't need to give us that leeway to re-organise our operations, but chose to anyway.
I will update the blog-site with further information in regards to short term planning as it becomes available.
Kind Regards
Ricdic
Insured Research and Production Services |
Serania Lai'Daigano
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Posted - 2006.08.16 17:02:00 -
[38]
I praise your decision Ricdic.
It was the honorable and right thing to do for your IPO.
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Kenz Rider
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Posted - 2006.08.16 18:33:00 -
[39]
Just as a pre-amble, you are completely free to run your operation as you see fit, but here are some financial suggestions. These are not criticisms.
On day one, when you contributed 5 billion of capital to the corporation, you owned 100% of the corporate stock. To effect the IPO, you would have issued an additional number of shares (amount unimportant). Post-IPO you would personally have 50% of the company and the other investors would have had 50% of the company. However, you say the corporation owns 40% of the shares, but this doesn't make sense based on your contributions.
Stepping aside from the above point for a minute, when the corporation 'owns' its own shares, they are considered to be retired, and therefore do not exist in an economic sense.
You should state instead that out of 60 shares, 10 are owned by you and 50 are owned by the public, giving you 16.6% of the company.
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Naphtalia
Millennium
E.R.A
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Posted - 2006.08.16 20:16:00 -
[40]
Often when founding a corporation with your own cash the corporation borrows cash from you.
Scenarios:
Scenario A:
1) Player x has 5bil isk.
2) Player x starts up Corp X and hires himself as the CEO
3) Player x buys 10% of the shares of Corp X for 1bil
4) Player x loans 4b isk to the Corp.
5) Corp sells 50% of shares to the public for 5b
6) Corp keeps 40% of the shares
7) Corp pays Salary to the CEO
In this scenario:
Corp assets: 10b isk (4b shares)
Corp liabilities: 4b loan 6b investor equity (4b shares)
Profit:
Capital + Labour = Return on 10b capital
Loss:
Salary (Price of Labour)
Interest on 4b (Price of Capital)
Principle payments on 4b loan (Reinvestment)
Profits paid as dividends to 6b investor equity (Price of Capital)
Income for CEO:
Dividends on 1b equity
Salary
Interest on 4b Loan
Scenario B:
1) Player x has 5bil isk.
2) Player x starts up Corp X and hires himself as the CEO
3) Player x buys 10% of the shares of Corp X for 1bil
4) Player x donates 4b isk to the Corp.
5) Corp sells 50% of shares to the public for 5b
6) Corp keeps 40% of the shares
7) Corp pays Salary to the CEO
Corp assets: 10b isk (4b shares)
Corp liabilities: 6b investor equity (4b shares)
(note here that the corporation has increased 60% in value immediately)
Profit:
Capital + Labour = Return on 10b capital
Loss:
Salary (Price of Labour)
Profits paid as dividends to 6b investor equity
Income for CEO:
Dividends on 1b equity
Salary
Scenario C:
1) Player x has 5bil isk.
2) Player x starts up Corp X and hires himself as the CEO
3) Player x buys 10% of the shares of Corp X for 1bil
4) Corp X borrows of 4b isk of a Bank.
5) Corp sells 50% of shares to the public for 5b
6) Corp keeps 40% of the shares
7) Corp pays Salary to the CEO
In this scenario:
Corp assets: 10b isk (4b shares)
Corp liabilities: 4b loan 6b investor equity (4b shares)
Profit:
Capital + Labour = Return on 10b capital
Loss:
Salary (Price of Labour)
Interest on 4b (Price of Capital)
Principle payments on 4b loan (Reinvestment)
Profits paid as dividends to 6b investor equity (Price of Capital)
Income for CEO:
Dividends on 1b equity
Salary
In Scenario A-C shares in corp wallet have no economic value and aren't used to pay dividends unless an SMO happens, corps like OT-TS and ESINV use this model.
Scenario D:
Same of Scenario A & C but with different accounting method (EMFi used this) to count shares in wallet.
Corp assets: 10b isk + 4b Shares in Corp X
Corp liabilities: 4b loan + 10b investor equity
Profit:
Return on 10b capital
Dividends from 4b shares in Corp X
Rise of Shareprice on 4b shares in Corp X
Loss:
Salary (Price of Labour)
Interest on 4b (Price of Capital)
Principle payments on 4b loan (Reinvestment)
Profits paid as dividends to 10b investor equity (Price of Capital)
I am interested which of the models A-C (or any of the Scenario D variants) RicDic is using.
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EMFi Manager
EvE Mutual Fund Inc.
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Posted - 2006.08.16 20:32:00 -
[41]
Edited by: EMFi Manager on 16/08/2006 20:33:15
Originally by: Kenz Rider
On day one, when you contributed 5 billion of capital to the corporation, you owned 100% of the corporate stock.
Depends which law/corporate model you use. EvE uses the english word "Corporation" which means it is a legal entity by itself and it "owns" its own stock.
Quote:
A body that is granted a charter recognizing it as a separate legal entity having its own rights, privileges, and liabilities distinct from those of its members.
As the CEO and Founder and Only employee, of course you could decide to sell all stock to yourself for 0.1 isk, and then sell each share for 100mil on open market. However the Capital raised in that manner will be owned by you and not "the corporation"
also:
Quote:
A corporation has the ability to raise capital by selling stock to the public.
This is of course if we use the word corporation to define the legal for of a eve-corporation.
Quote:
organizations that may carry out activities that are generally considered to be business exist under the laws of various countries. These include:
Franchising
Partnership
Limited partnership (LP)
Limited liability partnership (LLP)
Limited liability company (LLC)
Limited company (Ltd.)
Not-for-profit corporation
Sole proprietorship
Trust company, Trust (law) USA, Trust (law) non-USA
Anyways.. to conclude this: a Corporation is an entity (a non-natural person) that can own stuff, be sued, and be held liable. In priciple it owns its own stock unless he sells it for capital (or gives it away for free)
Alt of Naphtalia
Visit my investment site |
Lt Widowmaker
|
Posted - 2006.08.16 22:40:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Ricdic
Ok guys, my petition has been answered. I have been informed that this is a bug, therefore exploit. The GM thanked me for 'dobbing myself in'. I requested that we be given some time for current jobs to finish, standings to adjust etc so we can ie construct a second POS etc.
The GM accepted this request and has allowed us to fix this up of our own accord. He also advised that they would be looking to fix this in the next patch.
Therefore over the next week or two, CRA will be sending up a vote to determine whether a small portion of the capital raised should go towards a second POS, or whether we should restrict operations to one.
To those who advised me that this was/might be an exploit, I extend my gratitude. When putting these up, the thought never crossed my mind. Only when you guys started talking about it, I got to thinking that you may be correct. I think a lot of the comments were too harsh, but I will thank the fact that I was informed before GM intervention may have happened.
I also extend thanks to the GM involved as he didn't need to give us that leeway to re-organise our operations, but chose to anyway.
I will update the blog-site with further information in regards to short term planning as it becomes available.
Kind Regards
Ricdic
Your forgetting something, becasue you let so many alts into your corp there is no way you can get standing high enought to put a pos up in safe space. You mean your going to put it up in a 0.3 system, and tell everyone to move there blueprints there?
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Treelox
Amarr
Storm Industries
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Posted - 2006.08.16 23:42:00 -
[43]
widow maker, pos is already up and functioning in high sec.
The alts that do the research are not allowed to have any standings at all. Since they have no standing, only ric's main, which is the ceo, comes into play for the factional standings.
Want to join the Storm? |
Lt Widowmaker
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Posted - 2006.08.17 01:36:00 -
[44]
but he said he going to put up a 2nd, I was just wanting to know how if his standing isnt high enought anymore becouse of the alts.
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Ricdic
Caldari
Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd
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Posted - 2006.08.17 02:09:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Lt Widowmaker
but he said he going to put up a 2nd, I was just wanting to know how if his standing isnt high enought anymore becouse of the alts.
You are somewhat correct. Out of the 30 odd players in my corporation, only this character, and my second main Ricdics have standings towards the Gallente Federation. Ricdic has approx faction standings of 6.8. Ricdics has basically 0.5 faction standings.
So when the average is determined between both characters, Ricdics is obviously letting the team down. Therefore for the moment whilst we finish a t2 components job (which he is one of the few that can handle) I am hammering out missions to being to increase the corp faction standing on Ricdics.
Once this work is complete (Approx 2 days), Ricdics will likely leave the corporation for a week or so, until standings are back up and the second POS is deployed. There are a few other possible alternatives, which I have been speaking to a few people in-game about, but we need to do some research before they come into fruition. (ie joining an alliance, having ricdics start a placeholder corp in the alliance and use the labs through alliance tab, until standings increase.) This will be decided shortly.
To answer your previous question. We will be placing the second tower in the same 0.5 again. There is zero option of it being placed in low-sec.
Cheers
Insured Research and Production Services |
Ricdic
Caldari
Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd
|
Posted - 2006.08.17 03:23:00 -
[46]
Due to reservations not met, I am relisting 178,400 shares. Now, in order to give everyone a fair chance to get ready for these (as a lot were annoyed due to me only catering for OZ time zone), the shares will go live directly after the next downtime.
The first person/people to send funds after downtime will get the shares. So basically, the faster you log on, the faster you get them. This should be quite amusing. Anyone who sends funds after no more shares remains, will be sent their isk back.
Remember guys, when sending your funds, make sure to send an evemail as well.
May the best man/men/woman/women win :)
Insured Research and Production Services |
Salazar N'terre
Caldari
Intergalactic Combined Technologies
|
Posted - 2006.08.17 04:09:00 -
[47]
damn and here I was thinkin their would be an employee option stock plan later on!
"People who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do."
"Laugh and EVE laughs with you. Cry and EVE laughs louder."
-Anonymous |
Proton Power
Power Corrupts Trading Inc
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Posted - 2006.08.17 04:36:00 -
[48]
1. As per the exploit. Who cares. ATM CCP does nothing about it so leave it be.
2. As per his IPO. If its a scam then its a scam, but I am tired of every IPO out there getting crushed. Let the guy be and do what he needs to do. I still get asked daily if I am a scam, and get accused of things that have nothing to do with me.
3. I can verify he is working on a job only he can do atm, since the job is for me, which I paid for upfront. I dont think he is starting this as a scam, but to be honest, keep accusing him and he will probably walk.
-----------------------------------------------
Keep the Game Rolling. |
DeODokktor
Caldari
Dark Templars
The Fonz Presidium
|
Posted - 2006.08.17 11:16:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Proton Power
1. As per the exploit. Who cares. ATM CCP does nothing about it so leave it be.
No, This is wrong.
If you find a shedload of offline labs at a pos you should petition it so it's known. GM's will contact the owner and tell them they shouldnt be doing such a thing.
I am glad to see that yet another person is supporting bug usage however, it says a lot about you guys. |
Ricdic
Caldari
Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd
|
Posted - 2006.08.17 11:37:00 -
[50]
Good luck guys, these shares will become available any time in the next 20-30 minutes. I have been contacted by a few big players already so if you want to get in there, I suggest you don't delay. I look forward to the frantic flashing of my wallet upon entrance back into Eve after downtime. I will post as soon as all shares are sold, and transfer excess payments back to their rightfull owners.
Cheers and good luck all
Insured Research and Production Services |
Ricdic
Caldari
Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd
|
Posted - 2006.08.17 12:01:00 -
[51]
ok guys, I have recieved more isk than there are shares, so please stop sending funds through. I will begin processing now, and will evemail the lucky ones who got through. For those that didn't you will also be evemailed and funds sent back. Please stop sending me your money :)
Insured Research and Production Services |
Kasia Pelarar
|
Posted - 2006.08.17 12:43:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Kasia Pelarar on 17/08/2006 12:44:59
My first post and it is an apology.
Sorry, sent the money for shares before checking here.
Now, if anyone wants to send me money, for no reason, I will not say anything, well, maybe a thank you. 
KP (not nuts!)
Kasia Pelarar is also Kaylanar Ortan
(edit) Missing word
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Kenz Rider
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Posted - 2006.08.17 17:48:00 -
[53]
I can see one of the problems here is how we account for "company-owned" shares. In reality, the company does not own the shares in the sense that a shareholder owns the shares. They are simply not counted in the ownership structure at all, at least in real life.
Let me re-write scenario a for you using the proper accounting:
Your way:
Scenario A:
1) Player x has 5bil isk.
2) Player x starts up Corp X and hires himself as the CEO
3) Player x buys 10% of the shares of Corp X for 1bil
4) Player x loans 4b isk to the Corp.
5) Corp sells 50% of shares to the public for 5b
6) Corp keeps 40% of the shares
7) Corp pays Salary to the CEO
Reality:
1. dic starts the corp (its 100% his)
2. dic makes a capital contribution of 1b (it's still 100% his)
3. dic loans the corporation 4b (in rl this would be very difficult to get away with, it would likely be called equity by the tax autorities)[the corp is still 100% his]
4. corp creates and issues shares to effect the desired distribution of ownership, in this case it seems the distribution is 5 public shares for every 1 dic share.(dic now owns 16.6% and 83.3% is owned by the public)
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Kenz Rider
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Posted - 2006.08.17 17:52:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Kenz Rider on 17/08/2006 17:55:30
Originally by: EMFi Manager
Anyways.. to conclude this: a Corporation is an entity (a non-natural person) that can own stuff, be sued, and be held liable. In priciple it owns its own stock unless he sells it for capital (or gives it away for free)
Sorry, this is completely wrong. A corporation cannot own itself. A corporation always has a third-party owner, that can be another corporation or a natural person.
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Ricdic
Caldari
Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd
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Posted - 2006.08.17 18:20:00 -
[55]
Hi Kenz, I spoke to EMFi in-game, and he explained to me how it comes across as confusing, ie me not explaining the scenario correctly. I tried explaining what I was trying to achieve with him, and he has advised he will post in here to explain it in business terms.
I know my idea is sound, at least in terms of making money for my shareholders, however the corporate details etc are fuzzy. Initially, I was happy to just give the 4b to the corporation, however EMFi has explained this to me a little better.
Once he makes his post, if it still doesnt clear things up, I will try to explain it myself trying to make it as clear as possible.
I guess I could have easily gone with some huge amount of isk required, and brought home dividends on that. However, due to my limited knowledge in the IPO area, I am still learning so please bear with me.
I have advised EMFi and am happy to stand by this. Once his post is made, which explains things better, if anyone feels they have been misled in any way, I will buy back their shares at IPO price, and re-issue them to the public at the same price who can then make their own decisions based on the new information in this thread. I am not trying to mislead anyone, however it is quite obvious that I am unaware of a lot of the fineprint.
Kind Regards guys,
Ricdic
Insured Research and Production Services |
EMFi Manager
EvE Mutual Fund Inc.
|
Posted - 2006.08.17 19:35:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Kenz Rider
Sorry, this is completely wrong. A corporation cannot own itself. A corporation always has a third-party owner, that can be another corporation or a natural person.
Well this is the difference between a Corporation (as defined by a Corporate Charter) and any of the other business forms (LTD. etc). In general your description is sound, however that is not what really happened, since I know what really happened I assumed some steps :)
Alt of Naphtalia
Visit my investment site |
EMFi Manager
EvE Mutual Fund Inc.
|
Posted - 2006.08.17 19:51:00 -
[57]
Edited by: EMFi Manager on 17/08/2006 19:51:02
as requested by RicDic, explanation of the Corporate structure of C-R-A and example reports.
The truth behind C-R-A.
Process:
1) RicDic has loaned 5b isk from a bank (personal liability)
2) RicDic starts up C-R-A
3) C-R-A starts hiring staff (researchers and CEO)
3) RicDic buys 50% of the shares of C-R-A for 5bil
4) Corp sells 50% of shares to the public for 5bil
5) RicDic promisses to *donate* to the bank dividends he gets over the 40% stake in excess of 500mil each month for reinvestment.
(on 5: dividends on 1b equity will always be kept by RicDic, dividends on 4b equity will be used to pay of the personal loan RicDic has with the bank, any dividends in excess of the bank payments will be donated to C-R-A for corporate growth. If the loan is ever paid back or voided RicDic will still give monthly donations to C-R-A but may more more then just what is received in excess of 500m)
C-R-A Balance:
Assets:
Towers and Equipment
Pos Fuel Reserves
BPO's to Research
Corporate wallet
ISK in Clients hands as Colleteral
------------------
total: 10bil
Liabilities:
10bil shareholder equity
C-R-A Profit/Loss:
Operational Profit:
Income from Research Services
Income from BPO Reselling
Non-Operational Profit:
Donations from CEO
Loss:
Consumed POS Fuel
Salary to research staff (per job)
(extras such as brokerfees and cscp charges)
Conclusion
I would like to see the Donations from the CEO take a mandatory Character (voluntary contract which could be added to balancesheet) or I would like to advise the shareholders not to take the donations and corpgrowth into account when deciding how much they would like to pay for shares.
RicDic admitted that if he would sell part of his 50% equity he would consider the revenue from those sales as personal profit and personal capital.
Since RicDic is a major shareholder, corporate growth is in his interest and it is likely he will reinvest into C-R-A whatever he wants.. However nothing is stopping him to become his own client (purchase 1b in Blueprints to resell instead of donating 1bil to C-R-A to purchase the same blueprint.
I hope I explained the structure of C-R-A for everyone to understand.
Alt of Naphtalia
Visit my investment site |
Kenz Rider
|
Posted - 2006.08.17 20:13:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Ricdic
Hi Kenz, I spoke to EMFi in-game, and he explained to me how it comes across as confusing, ie me not explaining the scenario correctly. I tried explaining what I was trying to achieve with him, and he has advised he will post in here to explain it in business terms.
I know my idea is sound, at least in terms of making money for my shareholders, however the corporate details etc are fuzzy. Initially, I was happy to just give the 4b to the corporation, however EMFi has explained this to me a little better.
Once he makes his post, if it still doesnt clear things up, I will try to explain it myself trying to make it as clear as possible.
I guess I could have easily gone with some huge amount of isk required, and brought home dividends on that. However, due to my limited knowledge in the IPO area, I am still learning so please bear with me.
I have advised EMFi and am happy to stand by this. Once his post is made, which explains things better, if anyone feels they have been misled in any way, I will buy back their shares at IPO price, and re-issue them to the public at the same price who can then make their own decisions based on the new information in this thread. I am not trying to mislead anyone, however it is quite obvious that I am unaware of a lot of the fineprint.
Kind Regards guys,
Ricdic
Actaully I was stating this for your benefit, because it seems you gave away more of the Company than you intended.
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Tirg
Forum Moderator
Interstellar Services Department
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Posted - 2006.08.18 04:20:00 -
[59]
Thread has been given a good scrubbing. Please don't discuss exploits on the forums. If you have any questions, feel free to email us at [email protected].
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Lt Widowmaker
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Posted - 2006.08.19 12:31:00 -
[60]
Hi there I did the math and I just dont see anyway for you to put up a 2nd pos with your corp. it will take 20 people, with a 9.0 standing to get the 5.0 your needing for the corp your size.
Here is something you could do.
Making your own allance, send one of your chars to it to make the corp put up a pos, then use one corp for bus class reserch and one for norm reserch.
and if you need more pos's just start up a 3rd corp have it join your allance and so on and so forth. But again this will cost you 1bil to make the allance (+ about 20 days training if you dont have teh skills) + concord fees per month. (not sure how much)
But its the only way I see you can do it, and again if you need to do it, its need to config your stuff a little make sure you have that "allow alliance members usage" and your if you other corps in your allance wants to use it you need to set that corp at a +10 (and even then its still buggy, so to be safe set everyone + corp who needs to use it to a +10)
But its the only way I seeing you putting up a 2nd pos.
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