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Raneru Gallente Euphoria Released	Posted - 2006.08.15 12:24:00 - [31] Originally by: Waxau I suggest CCP do what they did to Yulai all those years back - for those that dont know, Yulai was rens + Jita combined, but with less players playing back then. What i suggest is now, they disperse the market more. Make more places hubs. Maybe that means more missions in other systems. Or move some agents from rens and jita. The problem with the lag is there are soooo many people in one system, the serer has trouble handling all the different processes. But im gonna get flamed for suggesting to move agents:P Are you even reading the same thread as everyone else? We are talking about large 0.0 fleet battles not empire mission runners. Back on topic.. The reason 300 people in a fleet battle lags the system out and 600 people in Jita doesn't is probably because you can bet a large proportion of the people in Jita are not doing anything. Where as in a fleet battle you have 300 people contantly hammering the node with data.
Riho Mercenary Forces	Posted - 2006.08.15 12:24:00 - [32] Edited by: Riho on 15/08/2006 12:24:37 Originally by: Garia666 you cant even handle 300 in one 0.0 system. since eve keeps growing the lagg stays the same. after years of upgrades and better code some things actualy never change. i was wondering if ccp has any idea on how to solve something like that. sine there can be over 500 people in jita. mabe its an idea to have something like an spare heavy server which can be placed in war zones. something you could place in a downtime? they know exactly whats the problem and how to fix it.... get better servers... but doh.. they (as far as i know) allredy run on one of the best servers in the world. there will allways be lagg... u CANT get rid of it.... its impossible... even if they get 1k ppl in a system whitout lag... there will be ppl who mas a fleet that will go over that. and then we are back at this same point. no point telling that CCP doesnt have no clue whats wrong.... its more like YOU have no clue what are you talking about. CCP made the game... they know how the servers work... theres even a blog that shows how the servers work. so they know exactly whats wrong :P
lofty29 Gallente Tolarri Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.08.15 12:34:00 - [33] Originally by: Par'Gellen Turst me, they can afford to buy things. Any elementry school student can figure out the math on that. So, an elementary school student could work out Tax, Employee Pay, Server Maintainance costs, Rent, phone bills, internet bills etc, to work out CCP's total profit? Smart child --------------------------- Originally by: HippoKing ...I suck at forums
Jaketh Ivanes Amarr 1st Praetorian Guard	Posted - 2006.08.15 12:37:00 - [34] Originally by: lofty29 Originally by: Par'Gellen Turst me, they can afford to buy things. Any elementry school student can figure out the math on that. So, an elementary school student could work out Tax, Employee Pay, Server Maintainance costs, Rent, phone bills, internet bills etc, to work out CCP's total profit? Smart child I don't think Par'Gellen went to elementary school
Par'Gellen Gallente Low Grade Ore	Posted - 2006.08.15 13:10:00 - [35] Originally by: Jaketh Ivanes I don't think Par'Gellen went to elementary school Actually, I'm in the second day of my 3rd Grade primary right now and yes it was easy to figure all that stuff out. You guys having trouble with it? Kinda a no-brainer actually. Mommy let me play in the sandbox today after I did our neighbor's taxes
Matthew Caldari BloodStar Technologies	Posted - 2006.08.15 13:30:00 - [36] Originally by: Par'Gellen Originally by: Jaketh Ivanes I don't think Par'Gellen went to elementary school Actually, I'm in the second day of my 3rd Grade primary right now and yes it was easy to figure all that stuff out. You guys having trouble with it? Kinda a no-brainer actually. Mommy let me play in the sandbox today after I did our neighbor's taxes Presumably you had access to your neighbour's accounts though? Without access to CCP's, anything you might calculate is pure speculation. Do you even know how many people they employ (hint: number of devs posting on the forums is a very bad indicator). BTW, you did remeber to use Icelandic tax law, and take into account fluctuations in exhange rates, right? After all, their income is in euros and dollars, their server charges are likely to be in GBP, their HQ costs are going to be in Icelandic Kroner and transactions with the chinese franchise could be in Chinese yuan. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines.
Par'Gellen Gallente Low Grade Ore	Posted - 2006.08.15 13:39:00 - [37] Ok here is some speculation for you. 15 * 30,000 = 450,000 per month (I'm only using 30k here for the sake of argument. It's actually much higher than that according to CCP themselves.) Now, even if they are spending 90% of that just to keep the ball rolling (taxes, bandwidth, salaries, etc., again for the sake of argument. If it's that high then they are doing something terribly wrong...) that leaves $45,000 a month to "play" with. I've been in this business a long time and believe me 45 grand a month will buy you some nice bling bling.
Boonaki Caldari Suffoco Noctis Atrocitas	Posted - 2006.08.15 13:59:00 - [38] Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: Khajit Smitty Originally by: Boonaki Originally by: Dethis You can complain after the dragon code if it doesnt help then all hell can break loose It'll be out Oct 22nd, feel free to complain on Oct 23rd (or Oct 24th) I would give it a week or two before you start moaning, let the glitches,hiccups and bottlenecks be ironed out first - as there are always these issues with major upgrades. October 22? Last I heard was september. Originally by: Oveur Originally by: Boonaki I will be there! Who else is going? One question... Will there be internet at the hotel? If it's like most of the normal wireless internet found at hotels across the world, I have a concern. The Eve client (as I'm told, haven't checked it out for myself) sends the login information in the clear. If someone logs into Eve over an un-encrypted wireless network, their login info could be stolen. Including any devs who login over said network. It could cause allot of problems. There is internet at the hotel, the login info is actually hashed and after October the 22nd in Dragon it's heavily encrypted. Fear the Ibis of doom!
hired goon Fate. Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.08.15 14:08:00 - [39] Originally by: babylonstew trouble is, if they sort it so 500 man fleets can fight, everyone brings 700 and then complains about the lag again. its the old expand to fill the alotted space then complain when theres no more space thing Nah, people already bring the maximum amount they can to outblob the enemy - then complain afterwards. BoB didn't come blockade EC-P8R on their own because it would be laggy - they bought every other alliance with them to create a 600 man fleet. The lag they created was the reason their opponents (me, fred0, and some other guy in a griffin) didn't jump in at all. It was pointless; we'd be dead before our screens loaded. -omg-
Sensor Error 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.08.15 14:37:00 - [40] Originally by: Pepe Prawn I think they know what the problem is. Its just the solution is to expensive to inplement. ( cost/subscriber/Profit ratio thingy ) Riiiight... WTS: Clue. They just spent a STUPID amount on a server cluster that would make deep thought look like a fisher price my first computer. Software design and architecture isn't just something you can throw money at - it just doesn't work like that. The structure of the problem is not a "quick fix, but cost lot" type solution. It would involve MAJOR re-work of the architecture, and they are already doing just this. RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE!!! ------------------------------------------ Dev Responses to common questions

Garia666 Amarr adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.15 22:38:00 - [41] Originally by: Boonaki Originally by: Dethis You can complain after the dragon code if it doesnt help then all hell can break loose It'll be out Oct 22nd, feel free to complain on Oct 23rd (or Oct 24th) Well thats what they said about the drone limit all the other upgrades and patches.
Auldare S.A.S	Posted - 2006.08.15 22:53:00 - [42] Eve is already run on one of the most powerful servers in the world i cant remember if it's the top 5 or top 50, trust me they have thrown money to help in that aspect. the only thing that can help right now is removing bad code etc etc and oh what are they doing right now? thats right trying to fix that problem. The thing is it's timely to optimise this all as you cant throw money at it to really make it go away ================================================
Monty Burns	Posted - 2006.08.15 22:59:00 - [43] Edited by: Monty Burns on 15/08/2006 23:00:06 Originally by: Matthew Originally by: Par'Gellen Originally by: Jaketh Ivanes I don't think Par'Gellen went to elementary school Actually, I'm in the second day of my 3rd Grade primary right now and yes it was easy to figure all that stuff out. You guys having trouble with it? Kinda a no-brainer actually. Mommy let me play in the sandbox today after I did our neighbor's taxes Presumably you had access to your neighbour's accounts though? Without access to CCP's, anything you might calculate is pure speculation. Do you even know how many people they employ (hint: number of devs posting on the forums is a very bad indicator). BTW, you did remeber to use Icelandic tax law, and take into account fluctuations in exhange rates, right? After all, their income is in euros and dollars, their server charges are likely to be in GBP, their HQ costs are going to be in Icelandic Kroner and transactions with the chinese franchise could be in Chinese yuan. COme on guys, this isn't about money. CCP are of course "coining it in" as we say in the UK, who isn't? Anyone that runs there own company knows thats exactly why they run there own company instead of going to another company with there idea. However,... throwing "surplus" money at a problem is not going to solve it, it needs time, planning, time and planning, after that .. it needs an idea how to solve it, planning, time and planning and then... only if things are right, some rough testing .... and then back to planning ...... No matter how many staff you have or can afford to hire, it needs the RIGHT PEOPLE in the eigh place. I don't understand the problem to be honest. We had 20/30 ship fights long ago which were great but laggy.... then I remember dual mwd'ing through Curse Alliance fleets (80/100 ships) (and being on the other side trying to shoot these babies) with minimal lag. We had a period of serious lag around a year ago (maybe more) and lag has decreased big time since then. Before you blame CCP why not take a loot at your net latency? Or the time it takes your disks to load the textures, or the amount of ram your pc is using ... and needing to page? There are many, MANY things that can cause you to lag and before you all (and im sure ALL does mean some of you are errantly blaming CCP) blame ccp, why not wonder how much your dual core system lacks in memory and is paging? My System? Amd 64 Single core 2gig ram Radeon 9500 pro twin raptors (stripe) O/S, Progs and Temp files twin 250gig (stripe) data disks Isn't it funny how i get no lag? Apart from the raptors its all old equipment on a 8 meg Tiscali (ooo they are the daddy! hehe). Yet I get no lag/very minimal. Have you returned a PC to a shop saying its cr$p? edit: and yes, i too run my own company and unless ccp are UBER stupid (which I doubt VERY MUCH) they won't be paying full tax etc. Darwin 4tw
Monty Burns	Posted - 2006.08.15 23:06:00 - [44] Originally by: Auldare Eve is already run on one of the most powerful servers in the world i cant remember if it's the top 5 or top 50, Statistics, a wonderfull and powerfull tool for the ignorant (no insult intended!!!) Statistics can say whatever you want them to say, its not that dificult, trust me, 85% of statistics are made up! I know! Originally by: Auldare The thing is it's timely to optimise this all as you cant throw money at it to really make it go away Could not agree more. Money does NOT solve everything, ... planning, research, analysis, research, planning and more planning... then top it off with a heft dose of testing. Darwin 4tw
Auldare S.A.S	Posted - 2006.08.15 23:10:00 - [45] Edited by: Auldare on 15/08/2006 23:10:57 Originally by: Monty Burns Originally by: Auldare Eve is already run on one of the most powerful servers in the world i cant remember if it's the top 5 or top 50, Statistics, a wonderfull and powerfull tool for the ignorant (no insult intended!!!) Statistics can say whatever you want them to say, its not that dificult, trust me, 85% of statistics are made up! I know! I'll see if i can find the official stats, reason why i didnt say top5 or top50 to be exact was i couldnt remember but afaik the source was from a reputable source that correlates that type of information. Oh and I know about statistic padding by using graphs bar charts etc :) one of the worst people to do it are greenpeace, but thats a total different story ================================================
Zaldiri Caldari Automated Industries	Posted - 2006.08.15 23:44:00 - [46] You cant solve lag by increasing server capacity, fleets will just expand to fill the avliable capacity. Maybe decreasing the size of fleets would help, but it would be hard to see how you could to this without some fixed cap, which would be worse than lag to be honest. Without knowing the bottleneck issues that cause the lag it is impossible to know if this would work but: What if the amount of data that people recieved could be cut as the number of people in a grid/system increased? So if you a 200 man fleetbattle, you would be getting minimal data, thus helping performance. All you realy need in a fleetbattle is a list of people in the grid, and info on the people you have selected/targeted. If you got position updates on everyone every 10 seconds this wouldn't cuase to many problams. You dont realy need to know the position of every missile on the grid, or the transversal velocity of every ship, so if this was cut out maybe lag would be reduced. ----------------------------------------------- Admiral of King Frieza's Super Saiyan fleet.
mechtech	Posted - 2006.08.16 02:34:00 - [47] the key is real time load balancing, and maybe a couple of extra backup servers to distribute power to needy systems. After kali, the programmers should work full force on this, it would make the game alot better than another expansion would ill bet.
Xelios Minmatar Rampage Eternal	Posted - 2006.08.16 03:08:00 - [48] I don't know jack about running a server cluster but it'd be nice if there was a smaller secondary cluster that could copy a star system from the main cluster and run it in parallel (or take it over completely), then transfer most of the players in that system over to it. But I'm sure this would require a major rewrite of the server side code, if it's feasible at all. There are certain systems in 0.0 that should have more resources allocated to them all the time though, mainly the ones with conquerables and outposts. These days most of the huge fleet battles happen in those systems, usually because of POS warfare. The new BFG.
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.08.16 03:18:00 - [49] Originally by: Hellspawn01 It cant be fixed. More players come while the server gets upgraded so nothing changes. If the server would have a limit, then you can expect to have less lag. With the current server, it will die a very painfull death when we reach 30k players. Say bye to fleet combat Funny, Serentity uses the Dragon code and they've beenable to handle 40k+ beta testers who probably sit in empire.
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.08.16 03:30:00 - [50] Originally by: Auldare Eve is already run on one of the most powerful servers in the world i cant remember if it's the top 5 or top 50, trust me they have thrown money to help in that aspect. the only thing that can help right now is removing bad code etc etc and oh what are they doing right now? thats right trying to fix that problem. The thing is it's timely to optimise this all as you cant throw money at it to really make it go away Top 500 computers in the world.

Dao 2 Generals Of Destruction Syndicate Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.08.16 03:39:00 - [51] Originally by: Leam Edited by: Leam on 15/08/2006 12:14:51 Cross your fingers and hope dragon make it better :P. Then, long long long ago in the first battles, people complained cause there was so much lag in 40 vs 40 battles. Then 150 vs 150, then 200 vs 200... in few words, it has improved A LOT... so that's what a 30k peeps server is for no actually ur VERY wrong 40vs40 not really 100vs100, 150vs150, 200vs200. Yeah there was lag, but playable lag, a little big of lag not "omg uber were stuck for hours lag, 30min activation lag" Lag in fleet battles has NOT gotten better. Before there could even be battles, now you can't. It has NOT gotten better, its gotten WORSE. Though its probably because of the increasing amount of people on at one time. ------------------------------------------------ NEWLY ADDED ON 1/19 (though applies to all posts before ;p) the usual "I don't represent my corp or alliance" and stuffs like that Also the gal
Dao 2 Generals Of Destruction Syndicate Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.08.16 03:41:00 - [52] Originally by: EvilNate It's suppose to be fixed in the new dragon client, it's been stated like a zillion times, please feel free to moan after it's been released. Nate. No he has every right to moan about it now, do you know why? cause its also been stated a zillion times (by the devs themselves) THE DRAGON CODE WILL NOT HELP FLEET BATTLES. THERE IS NOT ANYWAY TO ADD MORE RESOURCES TO A SYSTEM WITHOUT SHUTTING DOWN THE SERVERS THIS HAS BEEN SAID BY THE DEVS THEMSELVES. No asking for more resources before hand will not help, the only way the dragon code would help if theres like 200+ more ppl constantly for hours at a time for like 2-3 days in a row. ------------------------------------------------ NEWLY ADDED ON 1/19 (though applies to all posts before ;p) the usual "I don't represent my corp or alliance" and stuffs like that Also the gal
WeetBix Amarr	Posted - 2006.08.16 03:43:00 - [53] Originally by: Jobie Thickburger Have you ever sent your battleplans to CCP 48h ahead of the fight, Detailing about how many large ships, and how many POSs you intend to bust? Because otherwise they don't even have ANY clue as to what 0.0 system to backup. A massive group already tried that just recently, asking weeks before the event. CCP said it doesn’t not make any difference letting them know in advance, since manually allocating server resources is worse than just letting it do it on its own.
Dao 2 Generals Of Destruction Syndicate Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.08.16 03:45:00 - [54] Originally by: babylonstew trouble is, if they sort it so 500 man fleets can fight, everyone brings 700 and then complains about the lag again. its the old expand to fill the alotted space then complain when theres no more space thing this is the stupidest argument I have heard about this, and your not the first person to come up with it either. How do you even get this idea? Do you think alliances keep their fleet numbers down to stop lag? NO They come with everything they can, so no they WON'T bring more people because the server can handle it. How the hell do you people get these things in your head? The only reason fleet battles have had increasing numbers is because the game has had increasing numbers, more people ingame = more people in 0.0 = more people in fleet fights. Get it through your thick skulls. ------------------------------------------------ NEWLY ADDED ON 1/19 (though applies to all posts before ;p) the usual "I don't represent my corp or alliance" and stuffs like that Also the gal
Dao 2 Generals Of Destruction Syndicate Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.08.16 03:47:00 - [55] Originally by: Savio they could make more 0.0 space = more space for people to be at = less crowded systems... crowding isn't really a problem (resources wise maybe, but not lag wise) creating more 0.0 will actually have the nodes stretched further to occupy more systems. ------------------------------------------------ NEWLY ADDED ON 1/19 (though applies to all posts before ;p) the usual "I don't represent my corp or alliance" and stuffs like that Also the gal
Dao 2 Generals Of Destruction Syndicate Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.08.16 03:54:00 - [56] The amount of people isn't really the problem Hell even the amount of people in one place isn't the biggest problem (it does create lag, but not the omg freeze lag) If thats because of client side lag or server lag I dunno, to me It seems like computer lag. Thats why jita doesn't lag really, yeah theres a bit but far from a lot. The things that create the biggest lag for thsi sorta stuf is a) mass jump ins b) mass warp ins but not so much i think c) people locking, dampening, jamming, shooting, and doing all sorts of things at once (of course this is needed for a fleet fight, this is the biggest source of lag for fleet fights in my eyes next to jumping in) ways to reduce lag in fleet fights, well only way would be to have both fleets already in system and instead of just warping straight to a shooty shooty point have ur fleet first warp to a in-grid point then warp to the shooty shooty point ;p still considerable lag cause of all the shooting at each other and stuff but it helps... I'm not a computer buff so I'm sure im wrong on some points but eh ;p Only way I see of fixing this is a) sharding the server (no I DON'T want this to happen ever, but someday it might be necessary :( ) b) getting a node and or cpu for every system (I don't even know if this is possible in a technical sense :\| and it would be expensive as hell otherwise ;p) c) somehow a lot less ppl start coming on the servers ;p ------------------------------------------------ NEWLY ADDED ON 1/19 (though applies to all posts before ;p) the usual "I don't represent my corp or alliance" and stuffs like that Also the gal
Dao 2 Generals Of Destruction Syndicate Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.08.16 03:55:00 - [57] Edited by: Dao 2 on 16/08/2006 03:55:56 Originally by: WeetBix Originally by: Jobie Thickburger Have you ever sent your battleplans to CCP 48h ahead of the fight, Detailing about how many large ships, and how many POSs you intend to bust? Because otherwise they don't even have ANY clue as to what 0.0 system to backup. A massive group already tried that just recently, asking weeks before the event. CCP said it doesnÆt not make any difference letting them know in advance, since manually allocating server resources is worse than just letting it do it on its own. It's true that the devs, not just the gms, said they won't. Though I don't think it was because it would mess around with the server :S edit: god damn sorry i got so ****ed over this topic but all these ppl i keep saying when these topics come up are like "omg dragon code!!1!!!111!ONE!" or "omg theyre just gonna bring more ppl!" which the answers are NO dragon code WILL NOT help and NO THEY WONT CAUSE THEY ALREADY BRING EVERYTHING THEY CAN ------------------------------------------------ NEWLY ADDED ON 1/19 (though applies to all posts before ;p) the usual "I don't represent my corp or alliance" and stuffs like that Also the gal
Digitalfox Central Defiance	Posted - 2006.08.16 05:52:00 - [58] You know what I find really funny in this thread? Its that fact that the OP is complaing about not being able to have 300 person fleet battles, do you guys even realise how many people 300 people is? Mark off 300 marks on a sheet of paper, thats alot of marks. With each of those marks doing an insane number of tasks form jumping in, warping, activating mods, and everything else that goes along with it your asking alot of a server that has on average 13000 people on at once and on weekends, where these types of battles generaly take place, upwards of 25000 people on. I would say CCP is doing a pretty good job. Having played WoW for about 5months where servers would lag and crash out if 50 people tried to raid I think CCP is doing alright. But hey thats just my 5 cents (inflation)
Haniblecter Teg F.R.E.E. Explorer EVE Animal Control	Posted - 2006.08.16 05:58:00 - [59] Get the ^(&^(& out of empire. Solution. ---------------------------------------- Friends Forever
BuSHiDo ZiN Black Omega Security E.R.A	Posted - 2006.08.16 06:14:00 - [60] Originally by: Oveur Originally by: Boonaki I will be there! Who else is going? One question... Will there be internet at the hotel? If it's like most of the normal wireless internet found at hotels across the world, I have a concern. The Eve client (as I'm told, haven't checked it out for myself) sends the login information in the clear. If someone logs into Eve over an un-encrypted wireless network, their login info could be stolen. Including any devs who login over said network. It could cause allot of problems. There is internet at the hotel, the login info is actually hashed and after October the 22nd in Dragon it's heavily encrypted. [ 2006.07.30 21:36:18 ] Achtura > the dragon client just looks better [ 2006.07.30 21:36:22 ] Oveur > it's in use in China, where they had almost 40K simultaneous users [ 2006.07.30 21:36:37 ] Ouroboron > o.O [ 2006.07.30 21:36:50 ] Oveur > it's now in testing on singularity [ 2006.07.30 21:36:56 ] liquidism > with the big success of the china node, will you get more yarrdware for us on TQ? :) [ 2006.07.30 21:36:57 ] Bigfood > will this code be adapted to tranquility? [ 2006.07.30 21:36:59 ] Shimpu > yeah, but they don't do fleetbattles there yet, do they? [ 2006.07.30 21:36:59 ] Oveur > I hope to deploy it to TQ this month Grain of salt, man. Grain of salt. Also: [ 2006.07.30 21:38:36 ] BuSHiDo ZiN > Will the dragon client help in the massive fleet battles? [ 2006.07.30 21:38:57 ] Oveur > remains to be seen, china is a brand new shard, not many fleet battles happening there



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