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Axton Tomas
Gallente Federation
176
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Posted - 2014.11.10 03:27:32 -
[91] - Quote
I guess I'm late to this discussion. I suppose I should keep it short, then.
To the original speaker, you are absolutely right that freedom is not free. You are also right when you say that ideals must be kept in mind, but be careful about wandering too close to decrying the state of things. If you glance around at others that inhabit the cluster, our absolute worst is better than their best with the notable exception of the Republic. Do we have improvements to make, courses to right? Absolutely. But I think this is far from 'losing our way' or other wholesale decrying. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Imperial Outlaws.
4101
|
Posted - 2014.11.10 04:24:06 -
[92] - Quote
Axton Tomas wrote:I guess I'm late to this discussion. I suppose I should keep it short, then.
To the original speaker, you are absolutely right that freedom is not free. You are also right when you say that ideals must be kept in mind, but be careful about wandering too close to decrying the state of things. If you glance around at others that inhabit the cluster, our absolute worst is better than their best with the notable exception of the Republic. Do we have improvements to make, courses to right? Absolutely. But I think this is far from 'losing our way' or other wholesale decrying.
Nothing like objective and reasoned discourse. And this was nothing like objective and reasoned discourse.
Hey, Federation man! Wake up! In many respects your best is worse than our worst. You do other things worse than the Amarr and, yes, many things worse than the Republic. You, and I mean you in particular, not just you as a people, have MUCH that you could be doing to make things better EVEN NOW, if you would just take your eye off acquiring other people's space and things and look to improving your own.
"You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions."
"Only a killer would know that..."
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Gwen Ikiryo
Alexylva Paradox Low-Class
337
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Posted - 2014.11.10 04:43:14 -
[93] - Quote
Axton Tomas wrote:I guess I'm late to this discussion. I suppose I should keep it short, then.
To the original speaker, you are absolutely right that freedom is not free. You are also right when you say that ideals must be kept in mind, but be careful about wandering too close to decrying the state of things. If you glance around at others that inhabit the cluster, our absolute worst is better than their best with the notable exception of the Republic. Do we have improvements to make, courses to right? Absolutely. But I think this is far from 'losing our way' or other wholesale decrying.
Mister Tomas,
You would likely avoid the criticism of men like Pieter if you would be more specific about what qualities you consider the Federation to possess that set it above all other nations - There are certainly some objective ones, and likely many more depending on the values of the individual passing judgement. but if you simply speak in general terms, you'll only get people riled up.
Also, it is healthy for a society to be internally critical, even perhaps to not wholly justified extremes. Remember that reason and justice withers in the face of blind patriotism. |
Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
1404
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Posted - 2014.11.10 08:09:12 -
[94] - Quote
Gwen Ikiryo wrote: Also, it is healthy for a society to be internally critical, even perhaps to not wholly justified extremes. Remember that reason and justice withers in the face of blind patriotism.
Ms. Ikiryo, yet I prefer Caldari patriotism, which is, actually, based on reason and justice: my claims are backed with reason, and my demands are demands for justice.
The justice would be to give them what they give to us. Two hundred years ago they bombed and occupied our home planet, but we haven't done yet the same with their home planet. And I like it a lot to remind this to gallenteans and suggest to them, that their homeworld should be bombed for them to understand us. They usually reply with lots of insults, calling me names, accuse in murder, genocide, even "child killing". And for what? For just my WORDS about bombing their gallente prime. This is a typical example of gallentean hypocrisy, showing their faces to the whole cluster. Because my words remain just words, and their bombing of Caldari Prime was accomplished fact, for which the justice wasn't given yet.
Of course, we can't give justice to those, who died already, but we can fix their mistakes. We can return what is ours, and secure our property by nullify the charter that stole and constantly threatens our world and way of life. And what we should do, is return justice for our current situation, not for what happened 200 years ago. For example, if gallenteans insist on occupying half of our Caldari Prime, we should occupy half of their Gallente Prime. And justice for this Operation Highlander must be delivered. All those, who were guilty in this war crime, must be detained and punished accordingly, by laws of war time. |
Liam Antolliere
University of Caille Gallente Federation
158
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Posted - 2014.11.10 12:51:04 -
[95] - Quote
Axton Tomas wrote:I guess I'm late to this discussion. I suppose I should keep it short, then.
To the original speaker, you are absolutely right that freedom is not free. You are also right when you say that ideals must be kept in mind, but be careful about wandering too close to decrying the state of things. If you glance around at others that inhabit the cluster, our absolute worst is better than their best with the notable exception of the Republic. Do we have improvements to make, courses to right? Absolutely. But I think this is far from 'losing our way' or other wholesale decrying.
You mistake "decrying" for "awareness" and "caution," monsieur.
Since when do we settle for less than our best? Why justify a crumbling state of affairs with statements like "our worst is better than the best others have to offer?" (Whether or not that's true is a discussion for a different venue at a different time).
I'm not interested in comparing the Federation to other empires around the cluster. I'm interested in contrasting where the Federation is from where it could (and I would argue "should") be. We should not be settling for anything less than the best we have to offer. Democracy is worth it but more importantly, the people under the protection and provision of our democracy are worth it.
"Let it never be said that I have not been true to myself and, in so doing, true to those around me."
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Andreus Ixiris
Duty. Circle-Of-Two
4883
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Posted - 2014.11.10 14:29:19 -
[96] - Quote
Mssr. Antolliere has the right of it, I think - cultural and social progress is not produced by complacency. It is not by any means acceptable to merely be "not as bad as the others." That you are the best simply because others are a step behind is not sufficient.
We cannot make a perfect Federation, but we owe it to ourselves to make the best Federation possible.
Mane 614
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Tyrel Toov
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
42
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Posted - 2014.11.10 17:17:16 -
[97] - Quote
so, we can all agree to vote Liam for prez now? |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Imperial Outlaws.
4103
|
Posted - 2014.11.10 18:56:43 -
[98] - Quote
Tyrel Toov wrote:so, we can all agree to vote Liam for prez now?
10/10 - Would negotiate peace treaty with administration of.
"You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions."
"Only a killer would know that..."
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Axton Tomas
Gallente Federation
268
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Posted - 2014.11.10 22:55:51 -
[99] - Quote
Liam Antolliere wrote:Axton Tomas wrote:I guess I'm late to this discussion. I suppose I should keep it short, then.
To the original speaker, you are absolutely right that freedom is not free. You are also right when you say that ideals must be kept in mind, but be careful about wandering too close to decrying the state of things. If you glance around at others that inhabit the cluster, our absolute worst is better than their best with the notable exception of the Republic. Do we have improvements to make, courses to right? Absolutely. But I think this is far from 'losing our way' or other wholesale decrying. You mistake "decrying" for "awareness" and "caution," monsieur. Since when do we settle for less than our best? Why justify a crumbling state of affairs with statements like "our worst is better than the best others have to offer?" (Whether or not that's true is a discussion for a different venue at a different time). I'm not interested in comparing the Federation to other empires around the cluster. I'm interested in contrasting where the Federation is from where it could (and I would argue "should") be. We should not be settling for anything less than the best we have to offer. Democracy is worth it but more importantly, the people under the protection and provision of our democracy are worth it.
If you are not interested in comparison, perhaps an Intergalactic Summit is not the place? Using a public venue open to the peanut gallery is not the place, in my opinion, for open questions about the areas where we have failed to uphold our ideals.
You'll note that I agreed that we have much to work on, improvements to make, courses to change. But I referred to it as decrying because it was a public statement of our failures - inviting anyone and everyone to comment. The public nature of it is what makes it 'decrying,' from my perspective. Those who are not Federation citizens do not have opinions worth hearing on our internal affairs. We are not diplomats that are bound by the necessities of our job description to value the opinions of those that do not even remotely value the ideals you and I both agree we have not properly upheld. So why discuss it with them?
There is little substance of what you have said that I disagree with. I simply do not see the benefit of discussing our dirty laundry in mixed company in the same way citizens of the other nations are prone to do in this Summit. |
Axton Tomas
Gallente Federation
268
|
Posted - 2014.11.10 22:58:01 -
[100] - Quote
Gwen Ikiryo wrote: Also, it is healthy for a society to be internally critical, even perhaps to not wholly justified extremes. Remember that reason and justice withers in the face of blind patriotism.
Yes, internally critical.
As for the criticism of non-citizens, I have little interest in what they have to say. I clearly targeted my reply at the original poster. |
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Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Imperial Outlaws.
4109
|
Posted - 2014.11.10 23:04:03 -
[101] - Quote
Axton Tomas wrote:Gwen Ikiryo wrote: Also, it is healthy for a society to be internally critical, even perhaps to not wholly justified extremes. Remember that reason and justice withers in the face of blind patriotism.
Yes, internally critical. As for the criticism of non-citizens, I have little interest in what they have to say. I clearly targeted my reply at the original poster.
I wouldn't worry about it, Gwen. We're clearly so far away from healthy here as to make the point moot.
The man comes to a forum for citizens of the cluster to compare notes and opinions for the reason of suggesting it would do it's job better if nobody spoke.
"You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions."
"Only a killer would know that..."
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Liam Antolliere
University of Caille Gallente Federation
159
|
Posted - 2014.11.10 23:34:51 -
[102] - Quote
Axton Tomas wrote: If you are not interested in comparison, perhaps an Intergalactic Summit is not the place? Using a public venue open to the peanut gallery is not the place, in my opinion, for open questions about the areas where we have failed to uphold our ideals.
Au contraire, monsieur. By opening the discussion to the public then we are able to weigh perspectives that we otherwise may not ever know anything about. An outsider's perspective can say a lot about something that an insider may not ever even consider.
There is a distinct difference between considering an outsider's perspective and comparing the Federation to other nations and peoples, however. On one hand, we are considering an outside perspective on the Federation, its ideals and its people. On the other, we are using other nations and people to validate our own nation and people. The former is good for instruction and criticism, the latter is good for chest-beating and little else.
In light of this, I am not commenting on your second paragraph because we clearly have differing ideologies on the value and merit of the opinions and comments of others.
Axton Tomas wrote:There is little substance of what you have said that I disagree with. I simply do not see the benefit of discussing our dirty laundry in mixed company in the same way citizens of the other nations are prone to do in this Summit.
Because we are an open democracy. This, by its very nature, demands of us that we consider criticisms and opinions from any source and direction as we forever seek to better ourselves.
"Let it never be said that I have not been true to myself and, in so doing, true to those around me."
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Axton Tomas
Gallente Federation
273
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Posted - 2014.11.11 00:02:41 -
[103] - Quote
Liam Antolliere wrote: Because we are an open democracy. This, by its very nature, demands of us that we consider criticisms and opinions from any source and direction as we forever seek to better ourselves.
Yes, we just have different opinions about the value of an outsider's opinion on certain issues. I am more than willing to discuss a wide variety of topics in a public forum with those outside the Federation - but our internal politics and failures is not one of them. In order for someone to assess whether we have followed our ideals, the person in question must actually hold to those ideals. I would not pipe in on a discussion about what it means to be Caldari. In the same vein, I do not hold put any worth to the opinions of outsiders about what it means to follow our ideals. |
Liam Antolliere
University of Caille Gallente Federation
159
|
Posted - 2014.11.11 01:09:59 -
[104] - Quote
I understand your point and point of view, monsieur. I truly do.
I simply find that sometimes an outsider's idea of what that ideal means can lend perspective to our own understanding and perhaps even help us understand it with greater depth and clarity than we otherwise could.
If we disagree on this point, then so be it. It is only opinion, after all.
"Let it never be said that I have not been true to myself and, in so doing, true to those around me."
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Gwen Ikiryo
Alexylva Paradox Low-Class
342
|
Posted - 2014.11.11 01:30:26 -
[105] - Quote
Axton Tomas wrote:Yes, internally critical.
As for the criticism of non-citizens, I have little interest in what they have to say. I clearly targeted my reply at the original poster.
Axton Tomas wrote:Yes, we just have different opinions about the value of an outsider's opinion on certain issues. I am more than willing to discuss a wide variety of topics in a public forum with those outside the Federation - but our internal politics and failures is not one of them. In order for someone to assess whether we have followed our ideals, the person in question must actually hold to those ideals. I would not pipe in on a discussion about what it means to be Caldari. In the same vein, I do not hold put any worth to the opinions of outsiders about what it means to follow our ideals.
If you would reread my post, Mister Tomas, I believe you will observe that I never criticized the Federation at all. I praised it, in fact. Further, if you would read earlier in the thread, you will notice I have done the same several times already. And I understand and even somewhat agree with your statement that it can be useless and even self-destructive to discuss ideological failings with someone who fundamentally doesn't understand your ideals.
However, if anything, the only thing I criticized was you, and in the gentlest way possible - I was trying to give you a little friendly advice about how you might avoid starting another argument. If what you meant was that you don't want to hear a foreigners opinion about anything, then I might accuse you of being a bit of a xenophobe. |
Dessau
Ethnebdomon
217
|
Posted - 2014.11.11 02:14:23 -
[106] - Quote
Axton Tomas wrote:If you glance around at others that inhabit the cluster, our absolute worst is better than their best with the notable exception of the Republic. Do we have improvements to make, courses to right? Absolutely. But I think this is far from 'losing our way' or other wholesale decrying. Judging the state of affairs in the Federation based on the criteria set by other peoples (for their own societies) is a mistake. The founding principles are clear, committed to record, and should be the only metric against which we measure our success as a Federation. That metric reveals a stark and unflattering reality.
Axton Tomas wrote:If you are not interested in comparison, perhaps an Intergalactic Summit is not the place? Using a public venue open to the peanut gallery is not the place, in my opinion, for open questions about the areas where we have failed to uphold our ideals. Addressing Federation citizens in this dismal venue can be a means to establish more meaningful discussion somewhere else. I believe M. Antolliere simply separates the wheat from the chaff here beforehand, though he will of course correct me if I am mistaken.
Andreus Ixiris wrote:It is not by any means acceptable to merely be "not as bad as the others." That you are the best simply because others are a step behind is not sufficient. Even this presumes much, at least in the hypothetical. That is why, as I believe you suggest, our attention is properly focused on righting our course, rather than on making domestic policy comparisons to other nations throughout the cluster. |
Liuni Kalthis
Scope Works
48
|
Posted - 2014.11.17 16:43:18 -
[107] - Quote
Your first mistake is to assume that the summit is a place of good discussion and that all topics have not been debated, hashed, and eventually devolved into shouting matches.
The point about up holding other peoples views and their creeds goes to a point but I highly doubt the founders of our society would be ok with us saying to the Amarr "Well it's their way" or to the Sansha "at least they are happy" especially when they have been known to take our citizens and force those chains on them. I bet most Minmatar will also say that they are happier now than reduced to children due to Vitoxin.
The cluster changes, the Gallente change with it to deal with new challenges and even create some of our own such as the rogue drones. But, instead of just sitting by, becoming isolationist and stagnate at the expense of the next Amarr conquest due to their religion, the Caldari slipping more and more into a trade war instead of open army against army warfare....and never mind the constant dangers from the pirates such as the weakened Sansha and Blood Raiders, we must remain proactive and at the very least and raise voices to harshness and injustice.
Invite with open arms and a soft voice but carry a big stick. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Imperial Outlaws.
4157
|
Posted - 2014.11.17 18:15:39 -
[108] - Quote
You talk about trade competition like it's a bad thing. I think both of our economies could benefit from limited and healthy competition and cooperation.
"You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions."
"Only a killer would know that..."
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Andreus Ixiris
Duty. Circle-Of-Two
4987
|
Posted - 2014.11.17 18:36:46 -
[109] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:You talk about trade competition like it's a bad thing. I think both of our economies could benefit from limited and healthy competition and cooperation. Indeed. The Sotiyo-Urbaata Drive, stargate research, the monumental strides made before the collapse of the Criellere Project - these are testimony to the fact that any time the minds of the Federation and the State work together, rather than against each other, there is no limit to what we can accomplish.
It's one of the reasons I advocate peace between our peoples. If we didn't have to fight each other, we could fight genuine threats to the stability and prosperity of the cluster like the Serpentis, the Guristas and the Sanshas - together, we'd be almost unstoppable.
Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.
Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.
Andreus Ixiris > ...
Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
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Liuni Kalthis
Scope Works
48
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Posted - 2014.11.17 18:50:32 -
[110] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:You talk about trade competition like it's a bad thing. I think both of our economies could benefit from limited and healthy competition and cooperation.
Competition is fine but I speak of the recent sleeper mad grab being sold and given to the Empires and other small flare ups. |
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Jvpiter
Jovelike
2030
|
Posted - 2014.11.23 07:00:44 -
[111] - Quote
Axton Tomas wrote:Yes, we just have different opinions about the value of an outsider's opinion on certain issues. I am more than willing to discuss a wide variety of topics in a public forum with those outside the Federation - but our internal politics and failures is not one of them. In order for someone to assess whether we have followed our ideals, the person in question must actually hold to those ideals. I would not pipe in on a discussion about what it means to be Caldari. In the same vein, I do not hold put any worth to the opinions of outsiders about what it means to follow our ideals.
Behold the Gallentean who laments his loss of the proverbial fig leaf during an open discussion about the faults of the Federation. Give him a strobe-lit room with opiates and writhing bodies and he would forget that modesty were ever a word.
I am not surprised, in the least.
Call me Joe.
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Eli Hakomairos
Creeper Co. Bohica Empire
61
|
Posted - 2014.11.24 17:41:24 -
[112] - Quote
Merdaneth wrote:Elmund Egivand wrote: Forcing an ideal onto another person or society doesn't work. I believe this lesson is learnt from the Caldari-Gallente War and more recently, the Democracy Experiment in the Minmatar Republic. You can't force an ideal and claim it to be for freedom's sake, for the very act of forcing the ideal is already denying one's freedom of choice.
Indeed, you cannot force an ideal on someone like you also cannot force faith on someone.
Coming from an Imperial I find that pretty funny. |
Andreus Ixiris
Duty. Circle-Of-Two
5013
|
Posted - 2014.11.24 17:46:30 -
[113] - Quote
Merdaneth wrote:Indeed, you cannot force an ideal on someone like you also cannot force faith on someone. Would you mind telling that to, say, purely hypothetically, just an example off the top of my head here... other Amarrians?
Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.
Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.
Andreus Ixiris > ...
Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
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Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
871
|
Posted - 2014.11.24 17:51:18 -
[114] - Quote
You can't force it, short of using TCMCs. You can only encourage it.
His lordship's comment is hardly at odds with our culture. |
Stitcher
Alexylva Paradox Low-Class
4076
|
Posted - 2014.11.24 17:57:04 -
[115] - Quote
Starve a donkey, then wave a carrot at it. Have you forced it to walk towards you, or merely encouraged it? And are you or are you not being cruel?
An in-character blog and a video:
http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
871
|
Posted - 2014.11.24 17:59:58 -
[116] - Quote
Encouraged. Forcing would be tying a rope around its neck and dragging it towards you. |
Stitcher
Alexylva Paradox Low-Class
4076
|
Posted - 2014.11.24 18:02:56 -
[117] - Quote
Donkeys being as strong as they are, the rope might realistically be classified as "encouragement" as well.
But let's not overextend the metaphor here: the point I'm trying to make is that there is no such thing as forcing somebody to do something: There is only "encouraging" them so strongly that the alternatives become more than they are willing to bear. So for the purposes of this conversation, that's what I will intend the word "forced" to mean whenever I use it, okay?
An in-character blog and a video:
http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Liuni Kalthis
Scope Works
55
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Posted - 2014.11.24 18:28:54 -
[118] - Quote
Jvpiter wrote:
Behold the Gallentean who laments his loss of the proverbial fig leaf during an open discussion about the faults of the Federation. Give him a strobe-lit room with opiates and writhing bodies and he would forget that modesty were ever a word.
I am not surprised, in the least.
Sounds like a good time, when are you going to be throwing this party sir? |
Liuni Kalthis
Scope Works
55
|
Posted - 2014.11.24 18:29:55 -
[119] - Quote
Stitcher wrote:Donkeys being as strong as they are, the rope might realistically be classified as "encouragement" as well.
But let's not overextend the metaphor here: the point I'm trying to make is that there is no such thing as forcing somebody to do something: There is only "encouraging" them so strongly that the alternatives become more than they are willing to bear. So for the purposes of this conversation, that's what I will intend the word "forced" to mean whenever I use it, okay?
Just to overextend the metaphore here; what about vitoxin that makes many people simply do what they are told; almost like in a child-like or brain dead state?
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Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
871
|
Posted - 2014.11.24 18:39:44 -
[120] - Quote
You can't force someone to change their principles. You can only force them to act contrary to them.
Obediance to avoid punishment, to sate an addiction, to earn a reward, or to survive is only lip service. You can't force an ideal or a faith. There would be no Republic if you could. |
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