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Argenton Sayvers
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Posted - 2006.08.20 20:14:00 -
[61]
Believe it or not, eve is actually the only MMORPG that promotes TRUE friendship and TRUE trust. Because trust actually means something here, something that no GM or game mechanic can give to you. While i dont play dating sim online, an eve friend is more likely to be "trustworthy" then an wow friend. Simply because in Eve, he has no reason to be nice to you, he can betray your trust and run away, and actually get hailed as a hero.
As i said, check Guild Wars forums.
That game is full of racists, idiots, spammers and scammers, even though the entire community pretends to be high and mighty, and the gamemasters enforce their "family" vision of the game. Well in theory.
I know its hard to understand if you are a person who values faked friendship over honesty. People who play nice but are not, because they would face consequences. No consequences in the world will stop them from betraying you when it really counts.
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Godar Marak
Amarr
Return Of Red Dawn
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Posted - 2006.08.20 20:17:00 -
[62]
 Originally by: babyblue
This of course goes completely against your rather limited and ignorant opinion on the significance of this particular IPO scam and would make you the Homo Erectus, not me.
In conclusion, please go and get an education before coming onto the forums to discuss Darwin.
lol, you are either very young or very old.
I suspect the latter.
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babyblue
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Posted - 2006.08.20 20:21:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Dekiri
I don't wish to be rude, but you are apparently not the brightest. How does the fact that the stupid loose money have nothing to do with darwins theory? It IS basically darwins theory. If you are unable to adapt and/or are unable to keep your resources you will die (loose ISK in this case). How can someone with half a brain claim that this is not the fundamental of darwins theory?
No I'm not wrong. The idea of comparing what happens in Eve to Darwin is all dependant on what is being selected for. To say that it's selecting "clever people" or "brave people" is your opinion only. In fact it is my contention that it is just as likely to be selecting for arse-holes. I say this because there are many, many people who are clearly very clever who get scammed in game and out all of the time. Very often when it comes to scams it takes one to spot one.
Originally by: Dekiri
I understand that you don't like it i see this is pretty clear, but your arguments are not really good.If you think that guy got rewarded then you are wrong. He did get a HUGE chunk of "food", but he wont be able to reproduce, because he will be avoided like the plaque in the future by others. And my friend... if eve does one thing then it is rewarding teamplay, socializing trust and positive cooperation. You just have to be SELECTIVE whom you trust.
He can reproduce as much as he likes. He is free to purchase another account and transfer the ISK, transfer the ISK to an existing account, start another account, you name it. What he won't have in all of those cases are any consequences to his actions.
Originally by: Dekiri
I have no idea what you are talking about when you go all "right wing rethoric" or anything i guess you are an american since this does not have anything to do with right wing here in europe.
If you read history, you will know about certain ideologies in the 20th century that based their international policies on the concepts of survival of the fittest, or "those being the weaker or the stronger", particularly in Europe, or the killing of those not deemed to "fit" the racial stereotype.
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Argenton Sayvers
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Posted - 2006.08.20 20:41:00 -
[64]
Edited by: Argenton Sayvers on 20/08/2006 20:46:12
babyblue is actually right about darwinism - it has no place in politics and only leads to bad results. Social Darwinism is a twisted form of the actual meaning of the original theory and has caused a lot of bad things(tm)
Compassion for the weak and the stupid is what makes humans "human".
I have however, never seen a lot of compassion for the victims in eve. The "piracy is griefing" brigade was quick to hate the pirate and propose actions agains the scammer - or better said, to drive away the harmless kiddies, and up the ante for the really bad guys to cause harm.
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Death Kill
Caldari
direkte
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Posted - 2006.08.20 20:47:00 -
[65]
Originally by: babyblue
If you read history, you will know about certain ideologies in the 20th century that blah blah!
Its.Only.A.Game.(ffs!)
For the state for the state for the state |
Argenton Sayvers
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Posted - 2006.08.20 20:49:00 -
[66]
Edited by: Argenton Sayvers on 20/08/2006 20:50:48
Its only a game as long as you stay IC. We are discussing metagaming issues, something that by definition, cannot be part of the game.
The problem is that this Darwinism nonsense is a good way to derail the actual discussion. And create the impression that eve caters to right wing griefers, instead of actually promoting an harsh, "honest" environment.
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Death Kill
Caldari
direkte
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Posted - 2006.08.20 20:51:00 -
[67]
Edited by: Death Kill on 20/08/2006 20:52:04
Originally by: Argenton Sayvers
Its only a game as long as you stay IC. We are discussing metagaming issues, something that by definition, cannot be part of the game.
It is only a game, starting to bring rl examples into the equasion is insane.
Its people like babyblue you read about in the papers, the ones that goes all mental over a game and actually kills someone.
For the state for the state for the state |
babyblue
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Posted - 2006.08.20 20:55:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Death Kill
Originally by: babyblue
If you read history, you will know about certain ideologies in the 20th century that blah blah!
Its.Only.A.Game.(ffs!)
I'm sorry you missed the point. You can't separate the character from the person behind it, because although we have an "intelligence" skill, it has absolutely no effect on the person sitting at the computer. The same applies to the opinions of people who post their Darwinist theories of Eve on the forums. It's based on a misconception of what Darwins theory implies. I was just hoping to shed a little light on why it isn't neccessarily so.
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Death Kill
Caldari
direkte
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Posted - 2006.08.20 20:57:00 -
[69]
Fair enough.
For the state for the state for the state |
babyblue
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Posted - 2006.08.20 21:00:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Death Kill
It is only a game, starting to bring rl examples into the equasion is insane.
Yes. The real life example is Social Darwinism and how some people in Eve seem to think it is the reason why anything negative that happens in-game is good, because it "selects against" certain people.
I will ignore your last comment. Clearly the ramblings of someone with too much beer in the fridge.
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Lisbo
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Posted - 2006.08.20 21:00:00 -
[71]
in darwins theory this guy has to survive the 100 scammed who come for him...in EVE, he has not.
so stop with darwin...
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Raith Seinar
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Posted - 2006.08.20 21:19:00 -
[72]
I've spent some time reading around this issue (as a returning noob, I didn't even know what "EIB" was  ). It seems to me that unlike exploits, what this guy did was perfectly legit and well within the larger scheme of how the current build of EVE is designed to work.
The reason that many are having difficulty with coming to terms with scams is because being scammed for 750bn ISK doesn't lead to Concord whacking your behind for the next 40 years as it would in RL. It's quite possible to scam in this way with no repurcussions. The guy could walk into any bar in Empire, buy a beer, and no-one could touch him.
Cause and effect, action and reaction, crime and punishment, are not something that exist in the EVE world as they do in ours. We are attempting to define a value structure using our own system of beliefs as a template; this cannot work. In RL, if there was such an issue we would campaign to our members of parliament and attempt to get something done to punish the criminal; there is no such mechanic in the EVE world. We cannot contact our agent and get him to sort out a posse.
I can see how there is the possibility of a scammer having every bounty hunter on his case for the next 100 years....but the use of Alts (effectively real-world identity change) will soon put paid to that. I expect that the majority of scammed cash is immediately "laundered" by paying it into an alts account.
With this limited opportunity for vengeance or justice, the best I would suggest for victims is to move on. Canging the game mechanics around to halt scammers would change freedoms that many of us value far above ISK...
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Syril Mert
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Posted - 2006.08.20 22:01:00 -
[73]
A lot of people in this thread seems to live under the misconception that crime is always punished in real life.
It's not.
There have been plenty RL scammers that have disappeared or whos identity is unknown.
And while we're mixing RL into this, maybe some people should think about these question:
Did you pay for all the software on your computer?
Did you pay for all the movies and music you have downloaded?
If you didn't, have you actually been punished for it?
Would you tell Microsoft if you had a friend who used a pirated copy of XP?
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mir4ge
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Posted - 2006.08.20 22:09:00 -
[74]
I don't think you'll get an agreement any time soon between the two schools of thought reflected in this and many other threads on this topic. One group seems to have a very Hobbesian outlook on what Eve life and possibly RL is and should be. The other group seems to have a very Lockeian outlook. I don't think either is very reconcilable with the other.
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Manton Nerrin
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Posted - 2006.08.20 22:20:00 -
[75]
Edited by: Manton Nerrin on 20/08/2006 22:21:26
Originally by: Syril Mert
A lot of people in this thread seems to live under the misconception that crime is always punished in real life.
It's not.
There have been plenty RL scammers that have disappeared or whos identity is unknown.
And while we're mixing RL into this, maybe some people should think about these question:
Did you pay for all the software on your computer?
Did you pay for all the movies and music you have downloaded?
If you didn't, have you actually been punished for it?
Would you tell Microsoft if you had a friend who used a pirated copy of XP?
Actually thats not a great example as its the little guy making no real impact on a global megacorp.
Here's a nice example fo a global megacorp dropping one on the little guys and getting away with it completely:
http://prisonplanet.com/articles/july2006/120706Bayer.htm
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Argenton Sayvers
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Posted - 2006.08.20 22:38:00 -
[76]
Edited by: Argenton Sayvers on 20/08/2006 22:42:57
Exactly. There has been a nigh unlimited amount of misdeeds, starting from from lone con artists to entire nations that have gone unpunished.
People in Russia or Argentinia experienced financial breakdowns first hand, many lost all of their savings, and its really hard to tell wether there was a group or individual who caused it on purpose. Thats the problem of real life. Because of all the so-called sa***uards, its better for an evil-doer to lie and deny. In eve, many more people have the courage to openly admit that they are the bad guys, and i think that its a lot less debasing for a victim to see a "lolz pwned" flash after a scam, then to see a wall of smoke and exuses. But a lot of people prefer to see the smoke - it makes them feel comfortable to NOT know about the dangers out there.
Scamming wont go away if GMs start to police it. It didnt go away in real life, and you can be imprisoned, tortured or killed there. The only thing that will disapear is the bragging of the scammer. And i think most would agree that Istvaan is a positive aspect of eve, someone that adds actual content inbetween the POS spamming and level4 grind.
Ignorance is bliss. Blessed is the mind to small for doubt.
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eLLioTT wave
Art of War
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Posted - 2006.08.21 01:19:00 -
[77]
It is simple: EVE = harsh world lots of crime.
HOWEVER, there is no risk for criminals because they have alts. THIS NEEDS FIXING.
There is currently NO WAY POSSIBLE to get back at alt scammers.
IRL if you have the $ and time you can find and punish ANYONE. This should be possible in EVE just as the scam is.
People say silly for trusting an alt, but what is the difference. If Verone decided to scam he could, soon as he make his trillions he can never log verone on again and start alt, who can stop him or ever punish? NO ONE, not even mains can be trusted with current system.
FYI i have not been scammed by one of these, but if i had i would like to be able to track down my enemy and cause them much greif and suffering :P
alts FTL |
Kieli Rast
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Posted - 2006.08.21 01:42:00 -
[78]
This OH NOES THE ALT SCAMZORRED US!!! crap is just that.
I have given you my main details, and told you what I did rather than disapear into the background like all previous scammers before me.
Oh and another thing, probably belongs in the events forum though..
Me and some friends are going to do a EVE wacky races, paid for by you, the EVE public.
We basically get the best setup faction ship possible and attempt to get from home base (0.1) to the other end of EVE through Empire space using whatever tactics neccessary. Since all of us are -5 and below this should be a difficult task.
Spectators are welcome. The route will start from somewhere in Molden Heath and end in fountain.
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Johnny Twoshoe
Infinite Style Incorporated
Chorus of Dawn
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Posted - 2006.08.21 02:21:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Johnny Twoshoe on 21/08/2006 02:24:34
Originally by: babyblue
Originally by: Nerf Caldari
That's the reason I'm paying for Eve and now WoW. Had this been WoW, the GMs would have swooped in to "save the day" once it was made public it was a scam.
However, CCP doesn't punish some players for taking advatage of the fact that they're smarter than others.
If you fell for the scam, you deserved it.
Frankly, one of the first things that attracted me to Eve was this freedom. You can be a mean bastard as much as you want, and if someome wants revenge they'll just have to get it *IN GAME* just like everyone else. If CCP punishes Cally for this, I'll be canceling my subscription because, to be honsest, I'm not paying for a game where everyone has to work together and hug eachother everyday.
This kind of attitude is one of the reasons I cancelled two of my accounts and only reactivated this one to post about it. I have ISK invested in EMFI, which had a small exposure to the EIB scam. We investors were trying to build something positive in Eve, ie. a working stock market. Right now, we are doing it on trust and reputation. Those of you who think that the height of achievement in this virtual world is ripping off hundreds of small investors for their hard earned ISK have no idea how much harm this kind of thing does to Eve. Don't talk to me about rising subscriptions, talk to me about the rising numbers of alts increasingly needed to get ahead, because I very much doubt even half the number of actual players are logged in when you hit your "record".
If you think this kind of thing is "cool" and should be spun in a marketing campaign, then I say it's your house, you are welcome to invite every arse-hole in the universe into it if you want. Eve is a "PvP" game afterall, as you all keep saying. Personally I think that by shaking out the good guys and attracting the needle-****s of the world, you are ****ting in your own nests. Eve is increasingly attractive to people like you. As far as I'm concerned, you are welcome to it.
You want risk for scammers
But not investors, apparently.
You invested, you lost. Your fault, you took the risk.
I see no 'harm' that this is doing to EVE. EVE is a PVP game, as you said. EVE is also brutal and unforgiving.
~~~
Like a blind hammer...
That destroys what it can't see... |
Dagam
Dagam Corp
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Posted - 2006.08.21 05:45:00 -
[80]
Edited by: Dagam on 21/08/2006 05:45:59
Quote:
You want risk for scammers
But not investors, apparently.
You invested, you lost. Your fault, you took the risk.
I see no 'harm' that this is doing to EVE. EVE is a PVP game, as you said. EVE is also brutal and unforgiving.
That's not what he said. If you invest in a scheme, and this scheme doesn't turn out to be a scam, you still take the risk, the risk being whether the scheme turns a profit, or it goes under. You know, like a legitimate RL public business? Scam != Risk. Or rather, not a scam != not a risk.
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Death Kill
Caldari
direkte
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Posted - 2006.08.21 05:49:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Manton Nerrin
Here's a nice example fo a global megacorp dropping one on the little guys and getting away with it completely:
http://prisonplanet.com/articles/july2006/120706Bayer.htm
Off with their heads
For the state for the state for the state |
Gort
Rampage Eternal
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Posted - 2006.08.21 06:09:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Cherybol
I'm dancing with glee at the fact that this scam made it as far as it did.
Lets trust billions of isk to this company, in which we have absolutly NO security of knowing they arn't gonna skip off with our cash.
By all means, if you fools were idiotic enough to just drop some serious cash into this company. And then deal with the whole EIB is a scam phase. Then, you wern't scammed, by all means. He liberated it.
So while some of you got ripped a new ass. I profited handsomly buy purchasing EIB shares, and reselling them to some bloke on EGSE for 66% profit.
He isn't manipulating game mechanics. The only part that i see with this that blows. Is the fact that you can't hunt him down, and liberate your cash back. He can just alt the cash.
Despite im a carebare right now. I just love bigtime scams.
Even if i get shafted by one. Which is yet to happen. I just kinda brush it off, as I'll make it back in due time. And after all, this is a game.
And for all who wish to know. Im only 15yrs old. Yet im profiting of fools. Trading is the true form of piracy.
$moral_imbeciles++
Low-tech sig:
"When in doubt, empty the magazine." |
Sergeant Spot
Black Eclipse Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.08.21 06:19:00 -
[83]
Remember before the PvP timer? Folks logging off in combat to save their ship and/or implants??
Remember how lame that is??
Alt scamming (or ANY type of risk free scamming...) is worse.
THAT is my objection to alt scamming.
Scamming IS a form of PvP, economic PvP, but still PvP.
ANY form of PvP that is risk free for an attacker is INVALID game play. Lame is another good word.
Stupid victims?? Not part of the issue.
Trusting victims?? Not part of the issue.
Greedy victims?? Not part of the issue.
The issue is that ALL forms of PvP should include "real" risk, ESPECIALLY for the attacker.
The risk need not be immediate, nor must it be direct, but it must be "real".
For example, if my hauler gets ganked by a Battleship at a gate, there is no "immediate" risk for the battleship, but you can be assured there is "real" risk for the battleship. He can be hunted.
Everytime BNC ganks someone, I've indirectly helped BNC gank them. Folks can indirectly strike at me (and BNC) by shooting the POSs we run. Indirect risk.
Some scams are valid play. If the scammer used his "main", for example.
Invalid play is when a scammer uses an untrained alt to scam. Maybe only idiots fall for it, but the stupidity of victims is a TINY issue compared to the HUGE issue of risk free PvP for the scammer. It does not matter how stupid and/or greedy the victims were if the scammer is taking no risk, the scammer is the lamest of them all.
Unfortunately, this is not a simple issue to fix. However, fixing alt scamming, and condemning it are two different things. I'm condemning it because it is the ultimate in lameness as far as PvP goes. NOTHING is lamer. I'd love to see a "fix", but I recognize that it is better to have no fix than a bad fix.
Such scammers do not affect my game, but their mere existance is an insult due to their extreme lameness.
*snip*
This type of comment has no place in a signature, please remain courteous - Pirlouit
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Ephemeron
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Posted - 2006.08.21 06:27:00 -
[84]
To those who think that there should be no game mechanics to prevent scamming: consider an EVE where there is no Escrow interface and no in-station Trade window. Imagine that all non-market item trade had to be done in open space, with people ejecting cans and sending isk directly.
In that EVE, many people would get scammed. Many people would argue that only stupid people get scammed, that EVE doesn't need any special rules to prevent that sort of scamming.
But what impact would it have on EVE economy? do you realize that every possible scam leads to crippling of economic growth? it cripples development and progress.
Stability and security in business is essential to success of EVE-world.
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Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
LoneStar Industries
Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.08.21 07:24:00 -
[85]
Originally by: eLLioTT wave
There is currently NO WAY POSSIBLE to get back at alt scammers.
CCP and fanboys try to promote EvE. EvE is all about risks vs rewards. You can get away with scams in EvE. EvE is a sandbox game. EvE is about skills. You can do whatever you want in EvE. <Insert fanboyism here.>
The one thing fanboys forget is EvE is borked with alt problems. PvP is borked with alt shuttle spies in second account. Soloers use cov ops and BS to "solo". If alts werent a problem, CCP wouldnt really care about alts in the politic forum. Alts really kill a game with high penalties like EvE. You cant really say EvE is hardcore.
My 5 ISKs.
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In the blindness, a streak fiery thread violently cuts the horizon. Bleeding golden mists, engulfing the blindness from within. Burning the darkness. The touch of dawn. |
Sha'blach
Amarr
Cereal Killerz
Chimaera Pact
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Posted - 2006.08.21 07:40:00 -
[86]
response to the bank scam.
Dont give it back, ccp. if they are stupid enough to fall for it, let them pay.
^^ and I even said it on my main!
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Peregrinus Amarria
Your signature is too large. Please see the Forum Rules for the limits - Serathu ([email protected]) |
Seltrin
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Posted - 2006.08.21 08:42:00 -
[87]
Everyone saying that irl scammers don't get away with it have obviously not been in Eastern Europe. I've seen, in the past 10 years, at least 3 multi-billion dollar scams that left thousands of people broke: 1 pyramid game, 1 investment firm, 1 bank. Hundreds of thousands of, generally old/poor, people who invested everything they had in those bussinesses.
People still protest, still cry about getting their money back and the guys who pulled them off are still on a beach somewhere. Fact is in real life there is little action taken against skilled scammers since they run before action can be taken. And even if they're caught, money back just isn't happening.
Bottom line: If you're stupid enough to fall for pyramid games/totally uninsured banks..... You deserve to be broke.
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Willis Drummond
Lordless
Unbrella Alliance
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Posted - 2006.08.21 09:19:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Ephemeron
do you realize that every possible scam leads to crippling of economic growth? it cripples development and progress.
Scams don't happen in a vaccuum. They retard the economic growth of the individual or individuals that were scammed for a month or two but that ISK doesn't just go away. Even if that ISK ends up being used on timecards by the scammer it still ends up in someone else's account who then goes out and buys something with it.
Quote:
Stability and security in business is essential to success of EVE-world.
Stability is boring. It's so boring that alliances find the most retarded reasons to attack each other. It's so boring that people stop playing.
Again, if things are reaching this dire critical mass why is EVE's subscriber base growing? Are all these scammers buying 2 accounts for everyone they scammed who then quit?
Awesome Post# 93088 |
Capt Harlock
Band of Builders Inc.
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2006.08.21 09:42:00 -
[89]
TBH i think scamming is fine but 790 bil needs to be looked into. It doesn't hurt just the people that lost isk it hurts the legit people trying to sell shares in their business.Which imo is ripe for development an eve stock exchange would add a whole new dimention to the game but as it stands with current game mechanics will just not work because people can just pack up and keep your investmet.
I have a fair bit of isk i was thinking about investing in shares or something this latest scam has just put me off that forever. At this time however i wouldn't know what to suggest how would we add a regulated stock exchange to the game whilst keeping the game open to scammers? Maybe a npc entity could be a kind of broker a safe middleman in the process.
If there is a default on payment or original seller disappears the original cost of the share (held by the broker) defaults to the original buyer. This doesn't solve the problem if the char transfers the isk but then maybe something could be added (if not already in place) to track isk transfers to player. Then the original isk that has been transfered could be pulled by the broker (npc) and sunk this wouldn't include any increase of value to the stock but would be some kind of insurance to the original investment. Anyway just thinking out loud.
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Clavain Gobuchul
Minmatar
Conjoined
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Posted - 2006.08.21 10:15:00 -
[90]
I'm not sure I see the point in scamming being OK, up until a certain amount of money and then suddenly its no longer OK. Either it's acceptable or not. If someone gets away with it and it's a lot of money, good luck to them.
Personally I say keep it in the game, it's one of the things that seperates Eve from all the other games out there.
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