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Scams that go against the spirit of the game

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Pete Wilson Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2006.08.20 15:43:00 - [1] Edited by: Pete Wilson on 20/08/2006 15:45:01 Scams are a legitimate part of the game. But scams that rely on out of game lies and excuses to keep the ruse going for as long as possible go against the spirit of the game. We can all make our own judgements and decsions before we hand over our isk to a stranger who is running an IPO or investment business within eve online, and if that person ends up being a scam artist, then thats fair enough. There are no rules against it. However, if that person uses lies and deciet that have absoultley no bearing on the Eve Online gameworld - like RL motor vehicle accidents, prison sentences, and even faking their own RL death - just to keep the in-game scam ticking over until its time to cash out, then I seriously think that person is no longer conducting his business within the confines of Eve Online, and is instead using totally unfair advantages of out of game mechanics to feed off a victims trust and emotions (especially when those who have made friendships with that person are fooled into believing he's died in RL!). I really hope CCP draw a line here. Yes, scams should remain legitimate wether they're conducted in game or on these forums. But anyone who escalates their scam to include out of game instances like what we've witnessed should not be allowed to profit from their decent. Its totally unfair, and totally immoral. Scams should remain in-game and in-character 100% of the time. Any out of game RL deceit that is brought into the scam should immediately make the scam void and subject to CCP intervention. In my opinion, CCP should remove that ISK from the game and finally once and for all lay down clear guidelines on what is acceptable and what isn't.
Obaspacula	Posted - 2006.08.20 15:48:00 - [2] Edited by: Obaspacula on 20/08/2006 15:51:24 IF he sold the ISK for real life funds and if the ISK wasn't owned by CCP he would go to jail. He would have a level of protection against this because the courts don't understand online gaming. Time of customers making in game goods could be considered labor, he then may have fraudulently stole that labor.
Semblence	Posted - 2006.08.20 15:53:00 - [3] Originally by: Pete Wilson ... to feed off a victims trust and emotions ... To feed off a victim's greed, laziness, and stupidity, you mean.
Pete Wilson Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2006.08.20 15:54:00 - [4] Originally by: Obaspacula Edited by: Obaspacula on 20/08/2006 15:50:08 IF he sold the ISK for real life funds and if the ISK wasn't owned by CCP he would go to jail. He has a level of protection against this because the courts don't understand online gaming. Time of customers making in game goods could be considered labor, (sic) he has fraudulently stole that labor. Well if CCP are unwilling to remove the isk, I realy hope they keep an eye on where it goes. We're talking over $100,000 worth on ebay. And despite what Dentar Rast/Cally claims, there's no way he's going to use it all soley to fund his PvP activities. Anyone who saw the video can easily work out what type of person he is. 100K will buy him a lot of glue.
Obaspacula	Posted - 2006.08.20 15:55:00 - [5] Originally by: Semblence Originally by: Pete Wilson ... to feed off a victims trust and emotions ... To feed off a victim's greed, laziness, and stupidity, you mean. I think the issue is he allegedly used a bus crash, home robbery and a heart attack due to a drug overdoes/death to perpetuate the scam.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari LoneStar Industries Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.08.20 15:56:00 - [6] If Dentara had used his main to run EIB, would you put your ISKs in his bank? Why would it be any different in alts? --------- In the blindness, a streak fiery thread violently cuts the horizon. Bleeding golden mists, engulfing the blindness from within. Burning the darkness. The touch of dawn.
vyperpit Gallente Yes no maybe - i dont know	Posted - 2006.08.20 15:56:00 - [7] by the sounds of his vid, he is a crap pvper and will out in faction BS kitted with faction crap, and 1bil on his pod. so at 5bil per loss, that money will not last that long, if he doesnt learn also. buy GTC off forums, sell on ebay. isk into cash the legal way
Semblence	Posted - 2006.08.20 16:01:00 - [8] As he said in his video, he already had all the ISK, and just wanted to inject a little drama at the end. And the reason he already had all the ISK before he started the burglary/bus crash/death drama was... greed, stupidity, and laziness on the part of the victims.
Pete Wilson Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2006.08.20 16:04:00 - [9] Originally by: Semblence As he said in his video, he already had all the ISK, and just wanted to inject a little drama at the end. And the reason he already had all the ISK before he started the burglary/bus crash/death drama was... greed, stupidity, and laziness on the part of the victims. And you believed everything he said on the video? His out of game excuses go back a long long time, take a look through the older posts. The bus accident was only one in a long list of excuses as to why he wasn't around to answer questions whilst the isk still kept pouring in.
Kieli Rast	Posted - 2006.08.20 16:05:00 - [10] ^^ boo hoo
Obaspacula	Posted - 2006.08.20 16:08:00 - [11] Edited by: Obaspacula on 20/08/2006 16:09:46 Originally by: Semblence As he said in his video, he already had all the ISK, and just wanted to inject a little drama at the end. And the reason he already had all the ISK before he started the burglary/bus crash/death drama was... greed, stupidity, and laziness on the part of the victims. Okay so he fabricated stories in the end to bring a mentally ill twist to it all. I'm sorry I can see its a lot better this way. Funny how you don't see its his greed, stupidity, and laziness that is the issue. Most people worked hard for the initial ISK and tried to invest it wisely, not that uncommon of a thought. I get though how your line of thinking works, just like a *****victim is in the wrong for looking too good.....
Argenton Sayvers	Posted - 2006.08.20 16:11:00 - [12] You are somewhat right actually. But not for the reasons stated. Its not "unfair", its just lame. The entire EIB drama was a forum mess full of flaming, real emotions etc. I personally think it was a poorly executed scam for those reasons. But faking death doesnt make it any more "unfair". Seriously, did anyone actually invest into EIB after the messed up attacks against currin? If yes, the exist point was the supposed account sharing of those nameless alts who emptied UEMA. if you gave cally / EIB a single ISK after that point, you deserve to be sued IRL for something like "funding terrorism" or whatever it is that they use these days to get people one doesnt like into prison without any valid reasons ;) Everything done afterwards was just chest-beating. Bus accident, prison, death - i doubt that made him a single ISK. And if it did, people are so stupid, CCP should take away the money a second time. Thats actually good for humanity. As i stated in another thread, i lost 650m to this, but i personally value the mess and the drama that has cluttered up the forums (and the minds) to be ten times worse. We dont need it, same way we dont need people who play "goons in space". But eve is a free world, and that means that we have to take matters into our own hands.
Mung Lore Supero Omnia	Posted - 2006.08.20 16:42:00 - [13] Edited by: Mung Lore on 20/08/2006 16:42:55 Dentara Rast is Pete Wilson as stated in the video Kal D'vogh is Cally as stated by Pete Wilson Cally Is Dentara Rast and Kal D'vogh is Dentara Rast commming soon!
Obaspacula	Posted - 2006.08.20 16:47:00 - [14] Originally by: Mung Lore Edited by: Mung Lore on 20/08/2006 16:42:55 Dentara Rast is Pete Wilson as stated in the video Kal D'vogh is Cally as stated by Pete Wilson Cally Is Dentara Rast and Kal D'vogh is Dentara Rast I have to agree with this considering all characters have followed the same pattern of not loging into the game.
Barbicane The Gun Club	Posted - 2006.08.20 16:47:00 - [15] Originally by: Mung Lore Dentara Rast is Pete Wilson as stated in the video Nah, I believe he said he was "Peter", the guy who was supposidly looking after Cally's interests while Cally was in jail.
Pete Wilson Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2006.08.20 17:39:00 - [16] Originally by: Mung Lore Edited by: Mung Lore on 20/08/2006 16:42:55 Dentara Rast is Pete Wilson as stated in the video Kal D'vogh is Cally as stated by Pete Wilson Cally Is Dentara Rast and Kal D'vogh is Dentara Rast I think you need to train your reading comprehension beyond level 1, and while you're at it get your ears syringed and try listening a little harder next time
Khatred Lacuna Viators	Posted - 2006.08.20 17:43:00 - [17] Originally by: Argenton Sayvers edit: nevermind, as long as you are not khatred as well, you are noone important ;) ? _______________________________________________ CCP please hold my hand. I suck at Eve and I can't compete with other players in a multiplayer environment.
Aeaus Tharsis Security	Posted - 2006.08.20 20:12:00 - [18] Originally by: Khatred Originally by: Argenton Sayvers edit: nevermind, as long as you are not khatred as well, you are noone important ;) ? Probably alluding to how isk earned the honest way is much greater then scamming people through out-of-game lying and deciet. My Guides
Argenton Sayvers	Posted - 2006.08.20 21:18:00 - [19] And the fact that 500b public + 300b from EIB < Khatred's hangar ;)
Khatred Lacuna Viators	Posted - 2006.08.20 21:50:00 - [20] Originally by: Aeaus Originally by: Khatred Originally by: Argenton Sayvers edit: nevermind, as long as you are not khatred as well, you are noone important ;) ? Probably alluding to how isk earned the honest way is much greater then scamming people through out-of-game lying and deciet. Well, the only problem would be that for a lot of people that don't know me (and that would actualy be most of the people) I fall under the "cliche" of yet under T2 lottery winner who did nothing to deserve his wealth. Wich would put me in their view (by watching the usualy t2 whinage threads on one side and Cally's threads on the other) as a bigger "villain" than Dentara Rast. I especialy like that dude who wished in thread that t2 producers should die a slow and painful death _______________________________________________ CCP please hold my hand. I suck at Eve and I can't compete with other players in a multiplayer environment.
Etien Jeins Gallente University of Caille	Posted - 2006.08.21 00:06:00 - [21] Originally by: EULA. Section 6 TERMINATION; SUSPENSION OF ACCOUNT A. By CCP for Termination of the Game CCP does not guarantee that it will continue to offer access to the System or support the Game. CCP may, in its sole discretion, cease to provide any or all of the services offered in connection with EVEÖ (including access to the System and any or all features or components of the Game), terminate the EULA, close all Accounts and cancel all of the rights granted to you under the EULA. CCP may communicate such termination to you upon 30 days notice in any of the following manners: (i) when you log into your Account; (ii) in a notice on CCP's website; (iii) via electronic mail; or (iv) in another manner that CCP deems suitable to inform you of the termination. If CCP terminates the EULA pursuant to this section, you will not receive a refund of prepaid subscription fees. B. By CCP for Breach or Misconduct i. Suspension of Account Without limiting CCP's rights or remedies, CCP may immediately, and without notice, discontinue or suspend access to the System through your Account, and any and all other Accounts that share the name, phone number, e-mail address, internet protocol address or credit card number with the discontinued or suspended Account, in the event of (i) a breach of the EULA (including the Rules of Conduct) by you or any user under your Account; or (ii) unauthorized access to the System or use of the Game by you or any user under your Account. ii. Termination of EULA CCP may terminate the EULA, close all your Accounts, and cancel all rights granted to you under the EULA if: (i) you fail to pay the subscription fee when due; (ii) CCP is unable to verify or authenticate any information you provide; (iii) you or anyone using any of your Accounts materially breaches the EULA, makes any unauthorized use of the System or Software, or infringes the rights of CCP or any third party; or (iv) CCP becomes aware of game play, chat or player activity under your Account that is, in CCP's discretion, inappropriate or in violation of the Rules of Conduct. Such termination shall be effective upon notice transmitted via electronic mail, or any other means reasonably calculated to reach you. CCP reserves the right to terminate any and all other Accounts that share the name, phone number, e-mail address, internet protocol address or credit card number with the closed Account. Termination by CCP under this section shall be without prejudice to or waiver of any and all of CCP's other rights or remedies, all of which are expressly reserved, survive termination, and are cumulative. You will not receive a refund of prepaid subscription fees for a termination pursuant to this section. Scams like EIB and the like need to be prevented. There is absolutley no reason why CCP shouldn't ban the originator and participants. I am a fairly new player, and I know that scamming was allowed when I came to the game. However, as mentioned before, scams on such a grand scale, involving real life shaningans ought to be deemed Illigal and detrimental to EVE. Personally I feel that CCP losing allot of credibility when they would allow thousands of people get scammed and do nothing about it. I qouted the ELUA to in order to make my point, CCP owns our accounts, period. They can cancel it for ANY REASON and ANY TIME, ANY ACCOUNT. I think they should exercise that power now. Ban the participants in the latest big scam, ban all accounts associated with it, and flush the ISK down the black hole. Yea people will not get their ISK back, but if CCP bans the originator, or takes away and destroys the illgotten gains, many will feel better. [Hi, I am an exclamation mark! What's your name? And no, I am not a Goon ALT]
Ricdics Corporate Placement Holding	Posted - 2006.08.21 10:12:00 - [22] Originally by: Etien Jeins However, as mentioned before, scams on such a grand scale, involving real life shaningans ought to be deemed Illigal and detrimental to EVE. Personally I feel that CCP losing allot of credibility when they would allow thousands of people get scammed and do nothing about it. I think thousands is nowhere near the number who got scammed. If my records as a bank teller are at least partially accurate, single user accounts were approximately 300 or so users, plus about 20 corporations. I never saw any alliance ones however. CCP won't do anything about this. It would open up another huge can of worms. If CCP set this precedent, I would soon expect petitions along the lines of: " CCP, I demand you reimburse my ship. The east coast of Australia suffered a tornado last night so my corpmates weren't able to log on and save my carrier from being destroyed by BoB." Anyway, thousands and thousands of players daily would by lying about RL situations. Hell, when I log onto eve every day, I have to refer to RL at least 20-30 times. I am not defending him in any way, however a ban or anything along these lines would make CCP no worse than him, using out of game reasoning/abilities to solve/evade the problem. Insured Research and Production Services Queues
Tachy	Posted - 2006.08.21 12:10:00 - [23] Originally by: Etien Jeins Originally by: EULA. Section 6 [...] Scams like EIB and the like need to be prevented. There is absolutley no reason why CCP shouldn't ban the originator and participants. I am a fairly new player, and I know that scamming was allowed when I came to the game. However, as mentioned before, scams on such a grand scale, involving real life shaningans ought to be deemed Illigal and detrimental to EVE. Personally I feel that CCP losing allot of credibility when they would allow thousands of people get scammed and do nothing about it. I qouted the ELUA to in order to make my point, CCP owns our accounts, period. They can cancel it for ANY REASON and ANY TIME, ANY ACCOUNT. I think they should exercise that power now. Ban the participants in the latest big scam, ban all accounts associated with it, and flush the ISK down the black hole. Yea people will not get their ISK back, but if CCP bans the originator, or takes away and destroys the illgotten gains, many will feel better. Why would they ban anyone for that? If you fell for it you deserve to lose all you invested. If you fell for your second big scam, you should sit down and think about your position in the world. Maybe tending trees and herbs in a monastery ... Applying 5 minutes of simple math -when you're slow- would have shown you that EIB could not work and was intended to be a scam in form of the pyramid system from the very first post. Mods removed the posts pointing at that within minutes because discussions are not allowed even if those posts stated the result of simple math and didn't discuss. --==*-- Even with nougat, you can have a perfect moment.
BurnHard	Posted - 2006.08.21 12:21:00 - [24] Originally by: Tachy If you fell for it you deserve to lose all you invested. If you fell for your second big scam, you should sit down and think about your position in the world. Maybe tending trees and herbs in a monastery ... The trouble is, people don't deserve to lose all they invested - unless you think it's more criminal to be naive than it is to scam them in the first place. It happened, but whether it was deserved or not is not for you to decide. Moreover, it has no relevance to the debate at all. I have to say from the discussions I've read, a lot of people think like you in Eve. They are the kind of Vile people you sometimes meet out in the real world. Over the years their number has grown (I've played since Beta) - I somehow get the feeling Eve is now attractive to Vile characters who get booted out of other MMO's for being arse-holes. The quality of the Eve playerbase has been slowly deteriorating since it went live. We are now at the level where a huge scam, affecting possibly hundreds of people, is applauded and thought the height of Eve gameplay. I honestly think that it isn't the kind of environment I want to live in (virtually speaking) and neither are many of the people I read posting on the forums the kind of people I want to hang out with.
Argenton Sayvers	Posted - 2006.08.21 15:14:00 - [25] The people of eve may be vile, but they are honest about it. Other vile people play "police-state" happy familiy games, its just that they dont tell you until its too late. I would say that because of the game environment, trust actually means something in eve. Every scammer, every betrayel makes those people who actually keep their word more valuable.
Rechal	Posted - 2006.08.21 17:08:00 - [26] From day one in this game I was taught to be paranoid, to trust no one. I thank my teachers for that lesson. And I don't think this will cause as much disruption of the game as people think. I mean for everyone who was scammed there are many more who weren't.
Genesis Dweller	Posted - 2006.08.21 17:18:00 - [27] Originally by: Tachy Applying 5 minutes of simple math -when you're slow- would have shown you that EIB could not work and was intended to be a scam in form of the pyramid system from the very first post. Mods removed the posts pointing at that within minutes because discussions are not allowed even if those posts stated the result of simple math and didn't discuss. Would you mind giving an example of this simple math that irrefutably shows EIB to be a pyramid scheme?
Sun Win Gallente Eve University	Posted - 2006.08.21 17:37:00 - [28] If scammers aren't allowed to use RL details and lies to further their scams, then scam busters should not be allowed to use RL details to "guarantee" that something is legitimate, the sword should cut both ways. The use of RL/out of game lies arose as an arms race response to the investment community's demands of RL/oog facts and guarantees and contact info in their attempts to ferret out and prevent scams. Websites, TS convos, phone calls etc. There is no reason why scammers should be denied these tools in their efforts to scam us unless the scam stoppers will also be denied these tools in their efforts to ferret out scams. Let's play fair to both sides of this particular war. Join channel: "Eve University" or read here

Tirg Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department	Posted - 2006.08.21 18:27:00 - [29] Thread has been moderated. Keep the discussion civil. Email us at [email protected], if you have any questions. Oh yeah, Please.

Lazuran	Posted - 2006.08.25 16:03:00 - [30] Scams are part of the game. CCP has stated this clearly. Therefore, the EIB scam was perfectly legitimate. Selling ISK for RL money is a completely different issue and should not change CCPs stance on scams such as this one. What I found most amusing in this whole issue was that people seemed to be more gullible in a game than they would (hopefully) have been in RL if someone approached them wich such promises. It's a game guys, a game where scams are even more common than in RL. How could you possibly trust him? ;-) "The whole of NYC is not 1.0. Some back alley in the Bronx is deep 0.0, while right outside NYPD headquarters is 1.0." -- Slaaght Bana

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