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Therem Harth
DAB RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2006.08.21 15:20:00 -
[31]
I would think that people who regularly use EW-immune, often permacloaked at a (deep) safe mothership to obstruct other people's business, should expect that similarly skewed tricks will be used against them.
I would understand if you were complaining about a fighting ship logging out from under you, but freighter is just not a very nice example here, IMHO. If you just scale both sides of the equation down, it becomes roughly about the same as people gate-sniping noobs in 0.4 systems using maxed out sniperthrons or tempests, stabbed and fully aligned, of course.
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DuckM4n Vo
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Posted - 2006.08.21 15:22:00 -
[32]
What about people who only have so much time to play and they have to log off quickly? You want to leave them outthere to die? Why dont you guys just camp around where the freighter was and get him when he comes back. Freighters are defenseless why should it be made easier for you to destroy them?
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.21 15:34:00 -
[33]
Originally by: DuckM4n Vo What about people who only have so much time to play and they have to log off quickly? You want to leave them outthere to die? Why dont you guys just camp around where the freighter was and get him when he comes back. Freighters are defenseless why should it be made easier for you to destroy them?
Because if logging out to escape death was acceptable, everyone would do it and no ship would be lost. They might as well introduce a button in the interface with "Skip fight".
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.08.21 15:38:00 -
[34]
As long as login traps are legal, so should logging out be to save your ship.
Wanna change it, make all ships persistent.
No more lame login traps, no more lame logging out.
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xHoodx
The Establishment
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Posted - 2006.08.21 15:39:00 -
[35]
There should be a way to save the game before every jump, so that if you jump into something you don't want to fight you can just go "woops, bad idea, load last save" and refrain from jumping.
Also, did you just call owning and operating a mothership an exploit Therem? A carrier can't control it's fighters cloaked, if it cloaks with them out they're lost. What are you afraid of here?
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Locke DieDrake
Port Royal Independent Kontractors Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2006.08.21 15:44:00 -
[36]
Originally by: DukDodgerz
Originally by: Rawthorm And, while we are on the subject, why isnt punishment for logging off in combat harsher?
prove why they disconnected/logged...go ahead, prove it beyond doubt that they logged off and they didn't lose their connection (I agree it's wrong, but you can't prove it was done is what I am saying).
It shouldn't make a differance.
If your computer CTD's just as you enter combat, guess what, you are ******. Or at least, you should be.
Logging out and having your ship disapear is crazy stupid. ___________________________________________ The deeper you stick it in your vein, the deeper the thoughts there's no more pain. ___________________________________________
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Therem Harth
DAB RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2006.08.21 15:53:00 -
[37]
Originally by: xHoodx
Also, did you just call owning and operating a mothership an exploit Therem? A carrier can't control it's fighters cloaked, if it cloaks with them out they're lost. What are you afraid of here?
/me checks his posting for a word "exploit"... fails
It's not a case of exploits, I'm just pointing out that there are certain imbalanced situations in the game, which, while being technically fully legal and understandable, remind me of trying to do origami with a ballpeen hammer. The analogy I made is with gate-sniping noobs in 0.4 systems. It is certainly not an exploit. Do some people find it lame? Yes. Do gate-snipers find it lame? No. Will noobs log sometimes to escape it? Yes. Will those noobs find their behaviour lame? No. It's all in the eye of the beholder.
I'm not preaching for wider usage of logoff trick to save your ship, far from that, however I am trying to indicate that as you actually use your mothership to create some singularly imbalanced situations and should really expect the opposing side to try and compensate by whatever means possible.
Cloaking your mothership at a safespot makes it totally invulnerable to people wanting to locate and destroy it, their effort in composing and bringing adequate forces notwithstanding; just another example of local imbalances.
Hope this helps to parse my opinion better.
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eLLioTT wave
Art of War
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Posted - 2006.08.21 15:54:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Originally by: DuckM4n Vo What about people who only have so much time to play and they have to log off quickly? You want to leave them outthere to die? Why dont you guys just camp around where the freighter was and get him when he comes back. Freighters are defenseless why should it be made easier for you to destroy them?
Because if logging out to escape death was acceptable, everyone would do it and no ship would be lost. They might as well introduce a button in the interface with "Skip fight".
I think "teleport ship to destination station" and "teleport ship to next gate" would be sufficient. Also a "i don't want to fight so make my ship invulnerable" button would be nice...
And while we're at it lets add a "win eve" option.
Alternatively make the disconnect timer 15mins or if you are agressed 60 minutes. You say eve is harsh and let people scam nearly trillions with no punishment, yet pilots can logoff and not have to fight whenever they want?? So basically CCP encouraging out of game tactics/scams/logon traps/ logoffski etc... nice
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Ozzie Asrail
Hybrid Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.08.21 16:02:00 -
[39]
The main problem here is that PvP agression AFTER a logout does not trigger the 15 minute countdown and imho that has got to be a bug. Make it so any agression on a ship causes the countdown - regardless if the player is logged on or not.
Yes it may be a little harsh to unlucky people who crash 30 seconds before a fight but as it stands it's actually safer to logoff than it is to crash\disconnect anyway. -----
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Rawthorm
Gallente The Establishment
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Posted - 2006.08.21 16:15:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Therem Harth I would think that people who regularly use EW-immune, often permacloaked at a (deep) safe mothership to obstruct other people's business, should expect that similarly skewed tricks will be used against them.
I would understand if you were complaining about a fighting ship logging out from under you, but freighter is just not a very nice example here, IMHO. If you just scale both sides of the equation down, it becomes roughly about the same as people gate-sniping noobs in 0.4 systems using maxed out sniperthrons or tempests, stabbed and fully aligned, of course.
Since when did this become about Motherships being unfair? I had it on the gate right in their face when all 20 of them jumped in lol. They could have fought but didnt, they cheated instead.
I've jumped through gates in a frig before and ran into a HAC, but I dont log because hes bigger than me lol.
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Rawthorm
Gallente The Establishment
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Posted - 2006.08.21 16:17:00 -
[41]
As for being fair to people who geniunly crash...have you ever seen CCP's petition replies if you crash and want your ship back?
The official stance is if your ISP or your PC sucks, then oh well its your problem (as it should be). This gapping hole to let people log off contradicts CCP's official stance so it needs to be fixed.
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Sir Juri
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2006.08.21 16:20:00 -
[42]
Originally by: HippoKing
Originally by: Sir Juri
Originally by: Turiya Flesharrower Petition it as an exploit.
It isnt one so nothing will happen. But if you log off and get hit by someone (not npc perhaps,) just one shot it should activate 15min timer if/when logging and during that time you can warp scramble and keep him after 15min.
Ding, you win
Obvious solution, why it isn't there already I have no idea.
What do I win? can I pick something? plz? damnit do it CCP!
damn need to make a new sig... |
ArcticShadow
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Posted - 2006.08.21 16:33:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Twilight Moon
Originally by: Sir Juri
Originally by: Turiya Flesharrower Petition it as an exploit.
It isnt one so nothing will happen. But if you log off and get hit by someone (not npc perhaps,) just one shot it should activate 15min timer if/when logging and during that time you can warp scramble and keep him after 15min.
Something like a Comerant with 4 Sensor Boostwers in the mids to lock it quick and lay down aggro?
When you jump into the system you are cloaked, there is no way to aggro before someone logs off, as they log off while still cloacked. Then their ship moves, you warp jam, but it dissapears in 30-60 seconds.
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xHoodx
The Establishment
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Posted - 2006.08.21 17:06:00 -
[44]
I wasn't being terribly serious here Therem but bringing the mothership in here as an argument is rather ridiculous especially as it is not being used in any ways not intended by the devs as far as I know. I can only assume the devs don't want people to be able to log off to avoid combat hence the 15 minute timer if aggroed... which is why I think logging off in this way should be considered an exploit which in turn is why I used the word exploit when replying to your post. No need to get hung up on it tho.
Is it ok for someone to dock a carrier in an npc station? It would be equally invulnerable and you wouldn't be able to get it out without the person hitting undock themselves. This goes for any ship below mothership class I suppose, maybe do away with stations altogether. Npc ones anyway :) The mothership was designed to be hard to catch which is ok when you consider the pricetag ;) I bet you've had oppurtunities where you COULD have taken the mothership on if you had been on the ball. Griping about it being cloaked after you've missed such an oppurtunity seems a bit... lame :) At least you will see this particular one on grid rather than sitting inside a pos bubble sending fighters.
Anyways, this particular freighter logged off with 9 BS plus a bunch of support on its side in the face of a mothership and a couple frigs? Correct me if I'm wrong Raw. This is the equivalent of sniping n00bs in empire with a battleship, Therem? As in the mothership is just shooting fish in a barrel here?
Originally by: Therem Harth I would think that people who regularly use EW-immune, often permacloaked at a (deep) safe mothership to obstruct other people's business, should expect that similarly skewed tricks will be used against them.
I would understand if you were complaining about a fighting ship logging out from under you, but freighter is just not a very nice example here, IMHO. If you just scale both sides of the equation down, it becomes roughly about the same as people gate-sniping noobs in 0.4 systems using maxed out sniperthrons or tempests, stabbed and fully aligned, of course.
Anyways, suppose I'm going a bit off topic here by going on about the ms. The guy obviously logged off, just make it so the ships stays for 15 minutes if you can aggro it before it warps off and I'm happy. At least then it can be scanned down and killed along with the guys pod for logging.
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Ange1
Gallente The Establishment
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Posted - 2006.08.21 17:26:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Therem Harth
I'm not preaching for wider usage of logoff trick to save your ship, far from that, however I am trying to indicate that as you actually use your mothership to create some singularly imbalanced situations and should really expect the opposing side to try and compensate by whatever means possible.
Cloaking your mothership at a safespot makes it totally invulnerable to people wanting to locate and destroy it, their effort in composing and bringing adequate forces notwithstanding; just another example of local imbalances.
Hope this helps to parse my opinion better.
Technically speaking, Motherships were designed with Alliances in mind. We are a tiny corp in comparison to the huge corps and alliances that like to control territory. We do not have the resources to protect the Mothership from an uber blob of doom. We worked 5 months, spent over 30 billion ISK, and you expect us to not protect it in any legal way we can? When we cloak the ship, it makes it impossible to find yes, but then it also makes the ship useless. We can't use its Fighters, we can't change ships or store loot. We currently can't use the Clone Bay because - like Cyno's - its classed as a cloaking device. Its just like any other non-covert/recon with a cloak on.
Before the days of our Mothership, I have had a Freighter log on me to escape. I was on my own, with my Deimos, was hitting it for a good few mins with it scrambled and webbed, and it managed to crawl back to the gate in time to jump with deep armour damage After it jumped, he promptly logged off before decloaking and he dissappeared within a minute. I was so angry and contacted their CEO who seemed to be unable to understand that its essentially cheating. Thankfully, although I didn't kill it, SAS finished the Freighter off later in the day, which made me happy again. The guy got what he deserved.
The Establishment is at your service...
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Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.08.21 17:38:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Malachon Draco As long as login traps are legal, so should logging out be to save your ship.
That is the truth of the situation.
Both are as bad as the other, but to what extent do you wish to allow CCP to dictate when you can or cannot play Eve?
There has to be some middleground here to aim at, but any fix must address both issues.
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
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Sir Juri
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2006.08.21 17:43:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Sir Juri on 21/08/2006 17:45:17
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Malachon Draco As long as login traps are legal, so should logging out be to save your ship.
That is the truth of the situation.
Both are as bad as the other, but to what extent do you wish to allow CCP to dictate when you can or cannot play Eve?
There has to be some middleground here to aim at, but any fix must address both issues.
Just make it so if you get shot once by any player you get hit with a 15min timer and if scrambled the timer goes on. If an NPC shoots you no timer, if a player doesnt shoot you once (just one hit) in 30 sec or whatever the time is, then you logofski! (remember to bring probes.) edit; your ship will also remain were it is when shot upon for those 30sec-1min before it warps off unless its scrambled.
why cant this work?
damn need to make a new sig... |
Ozmodan
Minmatar Storm Industries
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Posted - 2006.08.21 17:52:00 -
[48]
Yeah, a very lame tactic, but unfortunately lacking a suitable solution.
Problem with Eve today is that the client tends to drop you for no reason.
Losing a ship for many of us in such situation can be a very expensive problem as equipment can sometimes cost more than the ship.
I can see CCP's reluctance to change this, there petition system is already overworked, and implementing a fix to this would drive them bonkers.
Learners permit still current |
Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.08.21 17:53:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Sir Juri Edited by: Sir Juri on 21/08/2006 17:45:17
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Malachon Draco As long as login traps are legal, so should logging out be to save your ship.
That is the truth of the situation.
Both are as bad as the other, but to what extent do you wish to allow CCP to dictate when you can or cannot play Eve?
There has to be some middleground here to aim at, but any fix must address both issues.
Just make it so if you get shot once by any player you get hit with a 15min timer and if scrambled the timer goes on. If an NPC shoots you no timer, if a player doesnt shoot you once (just one hit) in 30 sec or whatever the time is, then you logofski! (remember to bring probes.) edit; your ship will also remain were it is when shot upon for those 30sec-1min before it warps off unless its scrambled.
why cant this work?
Because it puts a limitation on when you can't play, without addressing when you can. Freighter heads to a gate in an empty system. Gank squad logs on. Freighter logs off. Gank squad engages immediately. Freighter hangs around for 15 minutes and dies.
Freighter has no way to know the gank squad is there, and so avoiding it is not within the players control.
If you want the mechanics changed to prevent the freighter escaping, you must also change the mechanics that allow log-on traps.
Now, I have no idea how you would do that without making the system annoying for normal gameplay - but I'm sure someone will dream up a spiffy idea.
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
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Rawthorm
Gallente The Establishment
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Posted - 2006.08.21 18:04:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Sir Juri Edited by: Sir Juri on 21/08/2006 17:45:17
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Malachon Draco As long as login traps are legal, so should logging out be to save your ship.
That is the truth of the situation.
Both are as bad as the other, but to what extent do you wish to allow CCP to dictate when you can or cannot play Eve?
There has to be some middleground here to aim at, but any fix must address both issues.
Just make it so if you get shot once by any player you get hit with a 15min timer and if scrambled the timer goes on. If an NPC shoots you no timer, if a player doesnt shoot you once (just one hit) in 30 sec or whatever the time is, then you logofski! (remember to bring probes.) edit; your ship will also remain were it is when shot upon for those 30sec-1min before it warps off unless its scrambled.
why cant this work?
Because it puts a limitation on when you can't play, without addressing when you can. Freighter heads to a gate in an empty system. Gank squad logs on. Freighter logs off. Gank squad engages immediately. Freighter hangs around for 15 minutes and dies.
Freighter has no way to know the gank squad is there, and so avoiding it is not within the players control.
If you want the mechanics changed to prevent the freighter escaping, you must also change the mechanics that allow log-on traps.
Now, I have no idea how you would do that without making the system annoying for normal gameplay - but I'm sure someone will dream up a spiffy idea.
Why not simply have a 60 minute log on count down. A time where you are held in limbo after character selection but before being placed in space fully (tho u apear in local) watching a nice 60 second count down on your screen.
A minor anoyance but its enough to stop people logging on and running right into a fight.
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Sir Juri
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2006.08.21 18:06:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Sir Juri on 21/08/2006 18:07:38
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Sir Juri Edited by: Sir Juri on 21/08/2006 17:45:17
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Malachon Draco As long as login traps are legal, so should logging out be to save your ship.
That is the truth of the situation.
Both are as bad as the other, but to what extent do you wish to allow CCP to dictate when you can or cannot play Eve?
There has to be some middleground here to aim at, but any fix must address both issues.
Just make it so if you get shot once by any player you get hit with a 15min timer and if scrambled the timer goes on. If an NPC shoots you no timer, if a player doesnt shoot you once (just one hit) in 30 sec or whatever the time is, then you logofski! (remember to bring probes.) edit; your ship will also remain were it is when shot upon for those 30sec-1min before it warps off unless its scrambled.
why cant this work?
Because it puts a limitation on when you can't play, without addressing when you can. Freighter heads to a gate in an empty system. Gank squad logs on. Freighter logs off. Gank squad engages immediately. Freighter hangs around for 15 minutes and dies.
Freighter has no way to know the gank squad is there, and so avoiding it is not within the players control.
If you want the mechanics changed to prevent the freighter escaping, you must also change the mechanics that allow log-on traps.
Now, I have no idea how you would do that without making the system annoying for normal gameplay - but I'm sure someone will dream up a spiffy idea.
wait wait here wait a minute if he logs off he is gonna get ganked from another system within 30sec-1min tops? you gotta be kidding unless he loggs at the gate offcourse. He wont remain for 15min unless shot once by a player (not npc) and he wont remain longer then 15min unless scrambled. Isnt that fair enough for the comon person getting a CTD and stuff?
plus unless they scramble within the 30sec-1min he warps away like any logofski. Should be fair enough for both parties no? but plz continue the discussion I hope the devs comes up with a great idea or gets presented with one soon
edit; and yeah like above poster says ad a 15-20sec (should be enough) showing in local of character before appearing ingame to.
damn need to make a new sig... |
Avon
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.08.21 18:08:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Sir Juri
wait wait here wait a minute if he logs off he is gonna get ganked from another system within 30sec-1min tops?
You know what a log-on trap is, right?
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
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Sir Juri
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2006.08.21 18:10:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Sir Juri on 21/08/2006 18:11:05
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Sir Juri
wait wait here wait a minute if he logs off he is gonna get ganked from another system within 30sec-1min tops?
You know what a log-on trap is, right?
well read my edit in last post, but login trap without a tackler/scout wont work really unless really really lucky.
edit; but solutions will have to be provided for both logon trap and logofski!
damn need to make a new sig... |
Kamduis
Caldari Carbide Industries
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Posted - 2006.08.21 18:36:00 -
[54]
You want to make it so that if I am moving items in my ship, and you jump me that *I* get an aggression counter? You have got to be kidding me. Why should I be penalized for something YOU started.
If I am being attacked and I crash, you want to make it so that my ship as a count down before it logs out? Why should I be yet again penalized because of a client crashing.
Now, if I read the posts wrongs and this was not the suggestion, my apology.
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Rawthorm
Gallente The Establishment
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Posted - 2006.08.21 18:46:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Kamduis You want to make it so that if I am moving items in my ship, and you jump me that *I* get an aggression counter? You have got to be kidding me. Why should I be penalized for something YOU started.
If I am being attacked and I crash, you want to make it so that my ship as a count down before it logs out? Why should I be yet again penalized because of a client crashing.
Now, if I read the posts wrongs and this was not the suggestion, my apology.
Because:
A) You put urself in the situation where you could get killed. You know its a dangerous route, so its your fault.
B) Again if your ISP or PC sucks then its not CCP's or our problem.
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Akira Kaneshiro
Caldari Associated Press
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Posted - 2006.08.21 19:01:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Rawthorm
text
---- sig ---- Stop whining. Deal with it or quit the game. |
Sir Juri
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2006.08.21 19:06:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Kamduis You want to make it so that if I am moving items in my ship, and you jump me that *I* get an aggression counter? You have got to be kidding me. Why should I be penalized for something YOU started.
If I am being attacked and I crash, you want to make it so that my ship as a count down before it logs out? Why should I be yet again penalized because of a client crashing.
Now, if I read the posts wrongs and this was not the suggestion, my apology.
Nope no need for an apology, thats the point yes.
damn need to make a new sig... |
Feline Ferocity
Caldari The Establishment
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Posted - 2006.08.21 21:11:00 -
[58]
Bah!
CCP should just make it so you can't actually log off/quit after you have been aggro'd for 15-20mins, or while you've just jumped through a gate and your 'naturally' cloaked.
People would then have to move, safespot or dock.
That should sort it
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