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Do MMOGs teach unethical conduct?

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Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.21 16:45:00 - [61] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Am I nice? I have this picture of you going on about pain and misery being the meaning of life... so anyone who is into depressing stuff will probably like you. :) I just appriciate you because you are so different from me... --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Tristan Acoma Caldari The Eleventh Commandment	Posted - 2006.08.21 16:52:00 - [62] Edited by: Tristan Acoma on 21/08/2006 16:53:14 Originally by: ShadowKi Originally by: Tristan Acoma Originally by: Dred 'Morte No I learned it in EVE, even though I never actualyl had the chance to put that "idea" in practise. I'm a really good person you know, but since I start to get ganked in EVE I became much colder. I'm not capable of hurting people physicly, but I really don't mind telling things that really hurt. Why? Why not? It's so much more fun hurting people without moving a muscle. Ah yes, the hard lessons of eve. Soon the heart grows colder, and haulers cease to be instruments of commerce, but rather grapes to be plucked from the vine and savored as they pop in the mouth of your agression. O_O you should be a poet. I am, indeed, a miscreant rouge of a poet. My victims rarely appreciate my work, however...
Kraven Kor Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e	Posted - 2006.08.21 16:57:00 - [63] I would argue this point exactly opposite of the OP. I think people's behavior in MMOG's (or games in general) is a reflection of their real-life personality, maturity, and morality. If you scam someone in EVE, I'd bet you would be willing to scam someone in real life -- if it weren't for the much harsher consequences. Now, some people might be "role playing" as an evil person, and I highly doubt every Pirate in EVE is just waiting for a chance to raise the the black flag in real life... but I think the relationship between your in-game actions and personality exists, and I doubt the "alter ego" influences the real person. Remember that the only responsible party for your actions is you -- not the games you play, not the people you hang out with (as they are a result of your choice to associate with them). The only exception to that is for children, where then at least the majority of the responsibility falls onto the parents. Strength through Unity, Discipline, and Honor!
JP Moregain Gallente Moregain Holdings	Posted - 2006.08.21 17:07:00 - [64] Originally by: Juwi Kotch With fascination and utter dismay I read about the EIB scam. I had to realize, that a megalomanic crook was able to pull off the biggest scam in EVE's history obviously with impunity. Fortunately neither me nor one of my corp mates lost any money here, because we invest what we get in our own corporation only. But I was thinking about this and a concern grew more and more in me: What do all the kids learn for life while playing EVE, or any other MMOG? We all know that there are a lot of minors playing EVE, young people who are still struggling to find answers for the questions of life. For many of those, their corpmates and friends in EVE are very important to them, especially when they are adults and spend time with them. I don't want to go into the detail of internet relationships and their impact on RL lifes, but I think you get the idea. So, while playing EVE, what do these youngsters learn? Attacking the weak is not only acceptable, but expected and rewarded Scamming might lead to success, and you will be congratulated for that Distrust is the only safe way to approach others Living in lawless regions are the only true way of life, sticking in to regulated areas is just uncool Being evil, foulmouthed and nasty helps you to get a reputation ... and so on. I know, EVE is a game, and one should make a clear distinction between this game and RL. But for many people this game is just a (major) part of their RL. Quite some people, and not only the young ones, have a hard time to seggregate their actions within EVE from their actions in RL. And EVE tells them, that being evil is something being rewarded. They learn, that being evil lead to success, to wealth, to reputation. I know, I might be exaggerating a bit, but as a studied philosopher, pointing to such things is part of what I've learned to do. And that I'm closing to 50 might also play a part in my urge to express such thoughts, people half my age may look at this much differently. However, I ask you all: Do MMOGs teach unethical conduct? Before the flames start, you should know, that I play MMOGs since more then 7 years now, and do not intend to stop that habit anytime soon. I'm just concerned, and had the need to express this concern. /me puts the asbestos/kevlar underwear on and presses the "Post New Topic" button. Juwi Kotch Perhaps the question you should ask is are the game mechanics skewed against legitimate 'businesses' where the trade off between trying to build something and run it as a legitimate enterprise are usually overwhelmed by the short term 'profit' of the scam. The latter generally has no negative consequences since they are typically perpetrated by generally unused/less trained alt that ends up being disposed... If they made legitimate businesses require expensive time consuming skills this would probably be less of an issue(e.g. an expensive liscense/skill for for a bank?? hello where is it?...) Think about this in contrast to normal PvP situations. I go and attack people in an unprovoked manner and eventually my reputation will suffer and I will be unable to use Empire space effectively. Additionally, if my uber PvP player doesn't care about Empire reputation, if I go and attack people in an unprovoked manner I will eventually have a few cheesed off corps/alliances hunting me and my corp/alliance down. Since I don't want to abandon my PvP character which I have worked so hard to build up, I take all of the above into consideration when making decisions to attack other players. Where is the comparable cost/loss for pirate businesses? JP "In JP We Trust, All Others Require Collateral..."
Locke DieDrake Port Royal Independent Kontractors Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.08.21 17:33:00 - [65] Originally by: Juwi Kotch I'm thinking about a more subtile influence in ones decision making. I'm not talking about blowing up your neighbours car, but about bringing this purse with 100 Dollars in it to the lost and found - or keep it. I'm talking about ethics. Juwi Kotch If you (or anyone) are learning ethics from online games, especially eve, god help us all. ___________________________________________ The deeper you stick it in your vein, the deeper the thoughts there's no more pain. ___________________________________________
Tristan Acoma Caldari The Eleventh Commandment	Posted - 2006.08.21 17:41:00 - [66] Originally by: Kraven Kor I would argue this point exactly opposite of the OP. I think people's behavior in MMOG's (or games in general) is a reflection of their real-life personality, maturity, and morality. If you scam someone in EVE, I'd bet you would be willing to scam someone in real life -- if it weren't for the much harsher consequences. Now, some people might be "role playing" as an evil person, and I highly doubt every Pirate in EVE is just waiting for a chance to raise the the black flag in real life... but I think the relationship between your in-game actions and personality exists, and I doubt the "alter ego" influences the real person. Sure, and a relationship exists between the color of my shoes and my decision making. Butterflies in Peru causing thunderstorms off the coast of Africa. I The problem with armchair psycologists is that they tend to simplify complex things - and this is certainly more complex than that. :) Quote: Remember that the only responsible party for your actions is you -- not the games you play, not the people you hang out with (as they are a result of your choice to associate with them). The only exception to that is for children, where then at least the majority of the responsibility falls onto the parents. True - and when you join a -game- you agree to an understanding that you don't OWN anything in the game, and any rational adult should be able to distinguish reality from fantasy - watching movies about screwy things dosen't make you screwy in of itself. Bringing reality into a MMOR(ole) P(laying)G in the form of morality only shows a simplistic assesment of the situation - you say Quote: If you scam someone in EVE, I'd bet you would be willing to scam someone in real life but would you make the same assesment of someone who plays RISK? Obviously if they're wililng to attack in the board game, they might be willing to be a dictator and crush legitamite governments and take over the world OHNOES! Speaking for myself (as a semi-rational thinking adult ;) ) - I play to escape the real world, and I have no problem with scams (although I prefer easier methods of getting ISK), villany, etc. Why? Because the items being stolen are not real and people who assign value to them to the level of -real- physical things need to take a moment and go enjoy real life. The ONLY currency in EVE is entertainment - thinking of ships and ISK as real-world possessions is simply deluding yourself.
Joshua Foiritain Gallente Coreli Corporation	Posted - 2006.08.21 17:42:00 - [67] Originally by: Juwi Kotch So, while playing EVE, what do these youngsters learn? Attacking the weak is not only acceptable, but expected and rewarded Scamming might lead to success, and you will be congratulated for that Distrust is the only safe way to approach others Living in lawless regions are the only true way of life, sticking in to regulated areas is just uncool Being evil, foulmouthed and nasty helps you to get a reputation The ones that believe mimixing a game is a good idea need to find SERIOUS help. ----- [Coreli Corporation Mainframe]
Ozmodan Minmatar Storm Industries	Posted - 2006.08.21 17:46:00 - [68] I think his point just zoomed over most of your heads. You can be extremely successful in this game being very unethical. You can mouth the word game all you like, when a young person is presented with a situation in real life where a choice has to be made, you can bet his experiences with eve will be ever present in his mind. The big question is can they distinguish the difference from the game and real life to make a correct decision. Unfortunately in a lot of cases they cannot. Agreed there are a lot of parents who need a 101 primer in parenting because of the above. Learners permit still current
Tristan Acoma Caldari The Eleventh Commandment	Posted - 2006.08.21 17:46:00 - [69] Originally by: Joshua Foiritain Originally by: Juwi Kotch So, while playing EVE, what do these youngsters learn? Attacking the weak is not only acceptable, but expected and rewarded Scamming might lead to success, and you will be congratulated for that Distrust is the only safe way to approach others Living in lawless regions are the only true way of life, sticking in to regulated areas is just uncool Being evil, foulmouthed and nasty helps you to get a reputation The ones that believe mimixing a game is a good idea need to find SERIOUS help. And their parents should have a better idea of where they're spending their time (and if they're able to handle such things). The world isn't made for children, that's why they have parents :)
Xelios Minmatar Rampage Eternal	Posted - 2006.08.21 17:49:00 - [70] Could we stop assuming youngsters don't know the difference between a video game and real life? This seems to be a common trend these days among older people, from trying to ban video games like GTA to blaming street racing on NFS. Lets look at another side of the coin shall we? What if games give youngsters an outlet for behaviours that are already there and would be unacceptable in the real world? I can pretty much guarantee that the majority of teens playing EVE thought about scamming people to get rich in real life long before they came across something like the EIB, and maybe, just maybe, EVE and other games give them a relatively harmless outlet for thoughts like this. The new BFG.
Tristan Acoma Caldari The Eleventh Commandment	Posted - 2006.08.21 17:52:00 - [71] Originally by: Xelios Lets look at another side of the coin shall we? What if games give youngsters an outlet for behaviours that are already there and would be unacceptable in the real world? I can pretty much guarantee that the majority of teens playing EVE thought about scamming people to get rich in real life long before they came across something like the EIB, and maybe, just maybe, EVE and other games give them a relatively harmless outlet for thoughts like this. Firstly, I agree with the idea that 'protecting' children is dangerous. But, I think the OP is trying to say that games like GTA and EVE -may- teach those kids who cannot tell the difference yet or are curious about the conept that theft and deciet has few consequences (in games, if you die, you re-clone). In the real world if you screw over a crimelord (pirate, whatever) they have a nasty tendancy of tracking you down and making you wish you hadn't. And sadly, there are no clones (yet). Personally I think the process of evolution should take it's toll in those cases, but I'm in a bad mood today ....
tadig smik	Posted - 2006.08.21 17:53:00 - [72] In regards to this, or any other video games that are deemed, FANTASY. Would you rather me gang, kill, rob or scheme in here or in the real world....?
Locke DieDrake Port Royal Independent Kontractors Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.08.21 17:53:00 - [73] Originally by: Ozmodan I think his point just zoomed over most of your heads. You can be extremely successful in this game being very unethical. You can mouth the word game all you like, when a young person is presented with a situation in real life where a choice has to be made, you can bet his experiences with eve will be ever present in his mind. The big question is can they distinguish the difference from the game and real life to make a correct decision. Unfortunately in a lot of cases they cannot. Agreed there are a lot of parents who need a 101 primer in parenting because of the above. It's silly to assume that gaming experiance has the same affects as real life experiance when at a crossroads. For instance, driving thru downtown at night, I see hookers, but I don't think. Hey, I could pick her up, ****** and then kill her for a bunch of money and health boost. Nor, if I find a valuable item do I think... hey, I could sell this on the market for a bunch, I think I'll keep it. If a person makes the chioce to do the wrong thing, then it's as simple as them making that choice. And it's safe to assume that eve didn't influence that choice in any great way. ___________________________________________ The deeper you stick it in your vein, the deeper the thoughts there's no more pain. ___________________________________________
Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2006.08.21 18:04:00 - [74] Originally by: Ozmodan You can be extremely successful in this game being very unethical. Just like in the real world Quote: The big question is can they distinguish the difference from the game and real life to make a correct decision. Unfortunately in a lot of cases they cannot. Thats because of their own short comings. A 16 year old is smarter than you think, and anyone below that age isnt ready for EVE in my opinion. If however, some youth were to kill his neighbour because he thought he was in low sec then its not the games fault, its the kid and his/her parents. For the state for the state for the state
Galk Gallente Autumn Tactics	Posted - 2006.08.21 18:05:00 - [75] I was realy going to make a post just like this one. I think the day somebody started a post faking his own death was the day it had gone too far tbh. It doesn't matter realy, from day zip on the internet, you have allways had people that bleet it from behind the screen, it's unlikely they repeat it on the flip side. Like the guy above... he finds it acceptable... and in fact it's my problem if i have a problem with a guy calling me a retard for no good reason... even though it's considered socialy unacceptable. I know if i called my boss a retard because i didn't agree with his point... id be walking down the road and out of a job on the spot. I think we pretty much agreed last week in that thread that it is perfectly acceptable to say such a thing here in eve to people.... just how many of those people would call a guy a retard that standing next to them in a pub... Not one id imagine. That pretty much tells you what i think. As of everything else.. im just glad im over 30 now and know good morale values, i would hate to be growing up now with the influences around such as mmo's. I look back to when i was a young teenager and know i took influences from things, im glad it was of better values than what i see here. ______ Long ago one gorgeous night, we let the stars grow free. We let Zhuge do that once, he came back carrying a traffic cone, a forsale sign and three empty bottles of dutch lager. He also lost his Zimmer Frame... - Imaran
Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2006.08.21 18:21:00 - [76] Originally by: Galk Like the guy above... he finds it aceptable... and in fact it's my problem if i have a problem with a guy calling me a retard for no good reason... even though it's considered socialy unacceptable. You got it all wrong. I tolerate it, would I like to be scammed? No. Does that mean I would take away a persons right to be a thief in A GAME? No. Quote: I know if i called my boss a retard because i didn't agree with his point... id be walking down the road and out of a job on the spot. just how many of those people would call a guy a retard thats standing next to them in a pub... Not one id imagine. That pretty much tells you what i think. As of everything else.. im just glad im over 30 now and know good morale values, i would hate to be growing up now with the influences around such as mmo's To be over 30 you sure use retarded examples. How you possibly can drag your poor boss into a scam that took place in cyberspace is beyond me. For the state for the state for the state
Kenz Rider	Posted - 2006.08.21 18:22:00 - [77] Originally by: Death Kill Originally by: Ozmodan You can be extremely successful in this game being very unethical. Just like in the real world Quote: The big question is can they distinguish the difference from the game and real life to make a correct decision. Unfortunately in a lot of cases they cannot. Thats because of their own short comings. A 16 year old is smarter than you think, and anyone below that age isnt ready for EVE in my opinion. If however, some youth were to kill his neighbour because he thought he was in low sec then its not the games fault, its the kid and his/her parents. Why is Lee Raymond unethical?
Locke DieDrake Port Royal Independent Kontractors Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.08.21 19:33:00 - [78] Originally by: Kenz Rider Why is Lee Raymond unethical? Lee Raymond, the chief executive of Exxon Mobil, Thats pretty much any rational person needs to hear to understand the "ethics" or lack there of involved. ___________________________________________ The deeper you stick it in your vein, the deeper the thoughts there's no more pain. ___________________________________________
Jenny Spitfire Caldari LoneStar Industries Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.08.21 19:36:00 - [79] Originally by: Locke DieDrake Originally by: Kenz Rider Why is Lee Raymond unethical? Lee Raymond, the chief executive of Exxon Mobil, Thats pretty much any rational person needs to hear to understand the "ethics" or lack there of involved. How about Larry Ellisson? --------- In the blindness, a streak fiery thread violently cuts the horizon. Bleeding golden mists, engulfing the blindness from within. Burning the darkness. The touch of dawn.
Zari Fate.	Posted - 2006.08.21 19:47:00 - [80] While not, in exactness, my own opinion on the matter, this link is extremely relevant to the OP. http://www.gamerevolution.com/oldsite/articles/violence/violence.htm
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.21 19:50:00 - [81] Originally by: Zari While not, in exactness, my own opinion on the matter, this link is extremely relevant to the OP. http://www.gamerevolution.com/oldsite/articles/violence/violence.htm You cant really even be sure that violance and video gaming has any connection to eachother. It could be any number of things contributing to violence going down, like more police, education or whatever. Right? --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Zari Fate.	Posted - 2006.08.21 19:57:00 - [82] Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: Zari While not, in exactness, my own opinion on the matter, this link is extremely relevant to the OP. http://www.gamerevolution.com/oldsite/articles/violence/violence.htm You cant really even be sure that violance and video gaming has any connection to eachother. It could be any number of things contributing to violence going down, like more police, education or whatever. Right? Right! Not that that stops people from talking about youth violence going through the roof... which it is clearly not... Just more broadcasted :D If violence among teens is going down, then clearly video games can't be causing an increase in teen violence, mutually exclusive :P My point wasnt to prove that teen violence and video games aren't connected, it was to disprove the theory that video games are causing teen vilence to go UP.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.21 20:00:00 - [83] Originally by: Zari My point wasnt to prove that teen violence and video games aren't connected, it was to disprove the theory that video games are causing teen vilence to go UP. I believe you are right here.. I would be surprised otherwise.. and start refering to people as idiots. :) --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Kybane Atreides LoneStar Industries Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.08.21 20:12:00 - [84] Only read first post, but IT'S A GAME... An escape from reality. That's the same as saying playing Quake III tells you to go kill people. Comments like yours may destroy video games someday.
Hakera	Posted - 2006.08.21 20:14:00 - [85] eve sufficiently covers most of the seven sins. If anything it will teach youngsters that the real world is a harsh place, it will teach you that when you get knocked down, you learn to pick yourselves up! true to eve, true to life :) And they also get hours of entertainment in eve.
Dred 'Morte Minmatar Sammael's Legion	Posted - 2006.08.21 20:15:00 - [86] Originally by: Tristan Acoma Edited by: Tristan Acoma on 21/08/2006 16:53:32 Originally by: Dred 'Morte No I learned it in EVE, even though I never actualyl had the chance to put that "idea" in practise. I'm a really good person you know, but since I start to get ganked in EVE I became much colder. I'm not capable of hurting people physicly, but I really don't mind telling things that really hurt. Why? Why not? It's so much more fun hurting people without moving a muscle. Ah yes, the hard lessons of eve. Soon the heart grows colder, and haulers cease to be instruments of commerce, but rather grapes to be plucked from the vine and savored as they pop in the mouth of your agression. As much as I hate you Tristan, I'm going to have to agree on that one! Signature made by Mr Floppykickners
Waxwing	Posted - 2006.08.21 20:33:00 - [87] Some players are less like the fellow who uses aggressive tactics in Chess and more like the guy who moves a piece when the other player's not looking. Yes, you do learn behavior when playing MMORPGs. Ethics are ethics, whether the world is real or virtual. Fair play is fair play whether the game is on grass or silicon. Someone who plays to win is called a "sportsman". Someone who cheats is called a "scumbag". No game, no sport, no aspect of life should ever reward scumbags.
Locke DieDrake Port Royal Independent Kontractors Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.08.21 20:33:00 - [88] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Originally by: Locke DieDrake Originally by: Kenz Rider Why is Lee Raymond unethical? Lee Raymond, the chief executive of Exxon Mobil, Thats pretty much any rational person needs to hear to understand the "ethics" or lack there of involved. How about Larry Ellisson? The guy from oracle? That might be a bit fuzzier. I'm not totally familar with the situation in that case. But oil companies are clearly extorting money from both sides of the fence. You really only have to look at crude prices compaired with pump prices and then time match oil company profits together with that to see just how dirty these guys really are. As a basic example... Crude price goes up, pump price goes up within a day. Crude price goes down, pump price takes 2-3 weeks to drop about half the differance between the old and new price. Even when crude oil goes below average prices, the pump price never trends downward. Thats not a working economy, thats price fixing. ___________________________________________ The deeper you stick it in your vein, the deeper the thoughts there's no more pain. ___________________________________________
Arkanor Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2006.08.21 20:36:00 - [89] Originally by: HippoKing I would say that I have no more reason to blow up a car in real life thanks to my interest in eve piracy than GTA makes me want to run over policemen until the army comes or Pacman wants me want to eat dots. Agreed, it is much safer to carry out these rather humanesque instincts in a relatively harmless environment, where everyone (well, most everyone) has accepted risk. I kill people in games, sometimes it works rather well for relieving stress. Originally by: Ghosthowl WoW = hardcore paladins smashin dat face. Originally by: HippoKing I just cried, you know that?
Tekka Caldari Dark Cartel	Posted - 2006.08.21 20:41:00 - [90] I found $300 at the post office and kept it. GO ME! »»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»»

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