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"Warp to 0 KM" option desperately needed

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Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.24 08:16:00 - [1] Edited by: Avon on 24/08/2006 08:22:00 Personally I'd be happy with all bookmarks within 300km of a gate being deleted, and it being made impossible to create new ones within that range. Period. However, if a replacement was introduced, I would favour a cheap module based solution (no skill requirements) using lo-slots or as a second choice, rig slots. Warp to 0km is not a solution to the problem. It addresses only one small part of the issue, whilst legitimising all the other things about Eve that instas break. Insta jumping, if it is to exist, [b]must[/i] involve compromise. Travel in Eve is not the mindless timesink it is in other games, and drawing inaccurate analogies to those games is counter-productive. If you want faster travel in Eve, you already have it, it is not something that needs to be introduced. You don't need a 'horse' because if you want to travel faster you pick a more appropriate ship, and fit it for speed. You don't need 'magic portals', because we already have jumpclones. If other issues are created by removing instas (not travel related issues), then they need to be addressed also, but the link between instas and protection needs to be broken. Snipers are certainly a consideration (although they would no longer be able to warp directly to their sniping spot). I saw before a proposal to allow players to warp to any other ship over 150km away. That would be a fine counter to snipers. It would greatly increase the risk of combat over 150km, and staying below that range would put you within sentry gun range. Anyway, I have rambled again. Warp to 0km is a kludge, not a solution. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.24 09:10:00 - [2] Originally by: DOGNOSH imagine(in empire space) i need to travel 10 jumps, it could take the best part of 1 hour How long would it take to move the same volume of goods as a freighter can carry using an industrial instead? The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.24 09:37:00 - [3] Originally by: Deja Thoris Edited by: Deja Thoris on 24/08/2006 09:16:09 Originally by: Avon ... Avon, why not be pragmatic and admit that most serious players have bms for their usual routes. The jump to 0km proposal is better than the current situation. (imo - and I said why ealier) CCP have spent so long looking for the perfect answer to travel. Isn't it about time they implemented something like this and admit it's an improvement but still not perfect? No instas is what we should do. Module based system is being pragmatic. Adding warp to 0km is not pragmatism, it is defeatism. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.24 09:59:00 - [4] Originally by: Thelmarr Originally by: Avon Originally by: Deja Thoris Edited by: Deja Thoris on 24/08/2006 09:16:09 Originally by: Avon ... Avon, why not be pragmatic and admit that most serious players have bms for their usual routes. The jump to 0km proposal is better than the current situation. (imo - and I said why ealier) CCP have spent so long looking for the perfect answer to travel. Isn't it about time they implemented something like this and admit it's an improvement but still not perfect? No instas is what we should do. Module based system is being pragmatic. Adding warp to 0km is not pragmatism, it is defeatism. So you would de facto take away one module slot from all but highsec ships. Would this again be lowslot to shaft the armourtankers even more? And perhaps make it go through T2 BPO lottery crap to make sure there might be lack of those things. (thus driving people AWAY from lowsec. everyone who thinks that people would stick to risky territory after removal of instas has not thought this through) If the result is something that is practically quaranteed to be needed by everyone (with exception of highsec people) why bother doing it at all? Everyone would get the skill, everyone would get the module... Same as letting everyone get the benefit anyway. It certainly wouldn't be a T2 seeded item. Yes, it would remove slots from those who choose to use them, giving a tangible advantage to those who don't ... much like WCS. I wouldn't fit them because I think I am able to play the game perfectly well as intended. If you can't manage that, fit the mod and gimp your ship. It is a choice. The benefit of instajumping would come at a cost. As to the slot choice, either lo-slots, or rig slots. I'd prefer lo's because they also house WCS, nano's & damage mods. If you think it is a proposal to gimp armour tanking, I assume you believe that shield tanked ships fly around with empty lo-slots, right? Ultimately, if we are to allow insta-jumps, they should not be the free meal ticket they currently are. You want fast food, fine. Just accept it isn't going to be as good as a slap up meal. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.24 09:59:00 - [5] Originally by: Thelmarr Originally by: Avon Originally by: Deja Thoris Edited by: Deja Thoris on 24/08/2006 09:16:09 Originally by: Avon ... Avon, why not be pragmatic and admit that most serious players have bms for their usual routes. The jump to 0km proposal is better than the current situation. (imo - and I said why ealier) CCP have spent so long looking for the perfect answer to travel. Isn't it about time they implemented something like this and admit it's an improvement but still not perfect? No instas is what we should do. Module based system is being pragmatic. Adding warp to 0km is not pragmatism, it is defeatism. So you would de facto take away one module slot from all but highsec ships. Would this again be lowslot to shaft the armourtankers even more? And perhaps make it go through T2 BPO lottery crap to make sure there might be lack of those things. (thus driving people AWAY from lowsec. everyone who thinks that people would stick to risky territory after removal of instas has not thought this through) If the result is something that is practically quaranteed to be needed by everyone (with exception of highsec people) why bother doing it at all? Everyone would get the skill, everyone would get the module... Same as letting everyone get the benefit anyway. It certainly wouldn't be a T2 seeded item. Yes, it would remove slots from those who choose to use them, giving a tangible advantage to those who don't ... much like WCS. I wouldn't fit theEVE Online \| EVE Insider \| Forums \| 205
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.24 21:49:00 - [6] Originally by: Maya Rkell And Avon, simple math. Let's say a freighter can carry 800k m¦. A Iteron V can cary, at best, 25k m¦, and only 15k m¦ with your modules. That's 53 trips, or 32 with 0km warps. So.. It was a rhetorical question. It would take longer in a hauler than it would in a freighter. Even though it seems very slow, it is actually faster and safer than the alternative method. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.24 21:53:00 - [7] Warp to 0km is a nerf to Minmitar, and a boost to Caldari. Remember that when then come to get you. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.24 22:34:00 - [8] Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2 2) People already warp to 0km anyways with insta's so allowing the optin to warp to 0km doesnt change SQUAT for 90% of the player base. Proof please that 90% of the players have every gate to gate insta in Eve. Making stuff up just makes you look even dumber. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.24 22:40:00 - [9] Originally by: Exioce Originally by: Avon Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2 2) People already warp to 0km anyways with insta's so allowing the optin to warp to 0km doesnt change SQUAT for 90% of the player base. Proof please that 90% of the players have every gate to gate insta in Eve. Making stuff up just makes you look even dumber. how many people in your corp/alliance do you estimate don't have gate instas? I doubt any have every g2g insta in Eve, and that is what warp to 0km gives everyone. It isn't a case of keeping things as they are now, as the warp to 0km crowd would have you believe. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.24 22:49:00 - [10] Originally by: Exioce a further question, when your corp/alliance decides to go adventuring outside its normal space, does it do so without buying/copying gate instas? Well, lots of us didn't have instas around SU when we came up to visit. I certainly didn't have any. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.24 23:03:00 - [11] Edited by: Avon on 24/08/2006 23:03:48 Originally by: Exioce as you've said you didn't arrive with them, did you acquire Syndicate instas during your stay? No. Still haven't got any. Still didn't stop me roaming around. I guess the difference is that I was looking for fights, not looking to avoid them. As to the percentage of people with g2g instas, I think you are missing the point somewhat. (And I honestly don't know) Some people may have lots, some may have only a few, but with warp to 0 everyone gets them all. That is not maintaining the status quo, as those who argue for it claim. That was my point. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.24 23:16:00 - [12] Originally by: EnEs TaLuNdZiC Well, since it's a skill with high ranking and a number of sub skills required, not everyone will have L5 by far, and at level 5 you'r almost in jumprange from gate, no difference as of todays system, same as having some bad instas, maybe a little chance based warpin around the gates, CCP can surely improve on this. Really, if you think of it, there wont be any problems ganking people , bubbles , still sniping around gates and so on. No need to worry. Just be hapy with lagless Eve-O A skill based solution is, at best, a delaying tactic to the introduction to warp to 0km; and more realistically is will become an even more annoying timesink for new players than the learning tree. Skills are not the way. Modules, cheap, tech 1, no skill requirement, no fitting requirements - either low or rig slot - that is the way. The compromise, the 'price', to balance insta jumping comes from having to reduce the effectiveness of your ship compared to those who choose not to use the modules. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.24 23:20:00 - [13] Originally by: Exioce Stuff Look, warp to 0km would be ace for me. I'd have every insta in Eve, and I would use it against my enemies. I'm not arguing against it because it would make me less effective, but because it would make me more effective. Warp to 0km would be great for me, but that doesn't mean it would be great for the game. We don't all feel the need to argue for changes to Eve from our own selfish perspective. Eve deserves better than that. I want a better game, and that does not always mean easier or more convenient. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.24 23:29:00 - [14] Originally by: EnEs TaLuNdZiC Well, make it a rig solution, one free rig for use of whatever you want/or just navigation processor specific as sugested earlier, thus not gimping shield nor armor tankers. It isn't about gimping tankers, and it is a pretty dumb arguement if you think it through. You are fitting these mods to AVOID conflict, so what exactly are you planning on tanking? Armour tankers, not surprisingly, have lots of lo-slots, and so in percentage terms a low-slot uses less slots that it does for a shield tanker. 4 slots with good skills will give you a fairly reasonable tank, and if you get to the stage where that isn't enough, chances are you a toast anyway. As the devs have stated that the plan for rigs is more defensive in nature, it is fair to assume that giving them over to travel mods will still gimp you survivability in a firefight over those who use defensive combat rigs. With that, you also have the drawback that it would do nothing to balance haulers (max expanders with no thought to speed), and still allows people to fill their lows with nano's and stabs. Yuck. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.24 23:30:00 - [15] Originally by: Exioce there is a price that comes with Warp to 0km, i'll be the first to agree. but the benefit to server performance outweighs it. we have 100k users and millions of instas currently, and we often find ourselves chugging along. how much worse will it be when we have double or triple that number. instas must be killed, and Warp to 0km may not be pretty, but it is certainly effective. So why not go for a module based solution if your only concern is server performance? Scared you might have to compromise? The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.24 23:33:00 - [16] Originally by: EnEs TaLuNdZiC I don't think that with high enough skill reqs, not everybody is gonna train to L5, L4 and maybe only L3. It would be seen as a required skill. It would be maxed. It also hurts new players at a time when they should be experiencing the game, not grinding the 'vital' skills. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.24 23:39:00 - [17] Originally by: Exioce simply this, a module will not get people to delete their instas to the extreme degree Warp to 0km would, because keeping the instas would mean they wouldn't then have to 'waste' a slot. They don't get the choice. The instas are deleted, and creating them again is made impossible (not all bm's, just those around gates and stations). The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.24 23:41:00 - [18] Originally by: EnEs TaLuNdZiC I agree with you, no more skills, but, having a choice between fire=instalag and ashes=skill, I choose skill instead. They aren't the only two choices. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.24 23:50:00 - [19] Originally by: Exioce i'm not sure CCP would go for such an invasive act as deleting all bookmarks from their end. perhaps they do have the means to determine what is a gate/station insta and what is not from the data, but it is just as likely they don't. and i should think they shudder at the amount of programming they have to do and petitions that would result. They don't really have a choice. It isn't like you can rely on the player to do it. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.25 12:53:00 - [20] People are starting to only try and address one aspect of this issue again. A solution must tackle all aspects of instas. Koth made a good post, but (in my opinion) came to a bad conclusion because he did not consider anything other than catching people at gates. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.25 18:34:00 - [21] I have already addressed every question raised in your post. If you are unable or unwilling to read and comprehend those answers, then I am sorry, but I'm not exactly sure what the point of discussing this with you is. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.25 18:43:00 - [22] Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2 "Warp to 0 breaks the game just as instajumps do. And its not just about gatecamps so no, it does not remove any objection at all against warp to 0." How I have yet to see how warping to 0 or insta jumps break the game. Please provide details. Last i checked I doubt the intent for the game was that anyone with a inty and a few friends ready to warp in should be able to lock down a gate that leads to hundreds of systems with 100% certainty. You notice how different ships have different speeds .. and certain modules effect that speed? Think it was all just for show? Come on, you're a birght lad, work it out. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.25 18:53:00 - [23] Originally by: Jim McGregor Avon, people already have instas.... Everyone, for every gate? Or do some people have a meta-game advantage over others? Remember, my ideal position is the total removal of instas - my proposal for a system to allow instas by forcing a compromised ship setup (in the same way that WCS provide increased safety) is me trying to propose a replacement system which comes with a tangible cost. The thing is, the Warp to 0km brigade are not interested in a balanced solution, they want one that gives them everything for nothing. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.25 18:54:00 - [24] Originally by: Koth Krakenworth Originally by: Avon You notice how different ships have different speeds .. and certain modules effect that speed? Think it was all just for show? I don't see how this "ships do different speeds, make all ships approach gates from 15km!" argument holds at all. Maybe you've realised that if an inty did 200 m/s with a mwd, it wouldn't be very useful now would it. Speed is used in combat, in order to survive or gain a strategic upperhand. Frigates are fast so that large weapons cannot hit it, not just because they can approach gates faster. Same with differences in speed in the same shipclass, a fast BS such as the phoon can gain the upperhand in combat simply because it can close a distance fast, or by tracking disrupting and orbiting make the enemy miss it simply through it's speed. But I'm sure you know that, no? Or did I miss your hint totally. Totally .. unless cargo expanders are now considered a combat mod. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.25 19:35:00 - [25] Originally by: Maya Rkell Dukath, you mean that they are not conducive to your specific chosen style of play. It is hardly as if you are being altruistic, is it? The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.26 07:51:00 - [26] Originally by: Cuisinart You know, I've seen several people claim that using bm's create's lag. Yet I have never seen anyone employed by or affiliated with CCP make or back-up this claim. Until I do, I'll operate under the assumption that it's BS made up by opponents of insta's (since that's what I believe it is anyway). Originally by: Oveur 100's of instas on the majority of characters are causing unnecessary server load in many scenarios (logon, switching systems, on use etc.) The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.26 08:09:00 - [27] Originally by: EnEs TaLuNdZiC A weeee bit more whining made the devs remove the AutopilotAutoMwd/Afb Such an interesting version of Eve history you have in your head. If I was a Dev, I'd be insulted at your lies an innuendo. Autopilot never activated your ab / mwd for you. You used to come out of warp at max speed, and you could manually activate your speed mods in warp. Quote: Today everybody is sick of the lag and has propsed different methods of getting rid of the instas, but , again, the griefers whine and whine. Noooooooooo, that would be giving everybody an insta!!!! It is about offering a similar method of travel, but with drawbacks. Originally by: Oveur From my point of view, I think it is acceptable to have the option of doing things in a safer and faster way as long as you sacrifice something else for it. Some will undoubtedly disagree :) Quote: One more thing about whining, quite off topic. Anyone remember the use of dual MWD or dual AFB or MWD+AFB ? No ? You can't use it today, because people were whining yet again, and again it was so hard to get a kill, we can't catch them this time either!!!!!!!!! If you still don't see the pattern YET, YOU need a CAT-SCAN! Ravens and other missile using ships could hit targets with impunity, but could not be hit due to tracking issues with turrets. Of course, that wouldn't have been an issue of missiles could still hit your own ship ... It wasn't about getting kills .. all the people who wanted kills were flying Ravens, it was about balance. Ah hell, you're seriously not worth the effort typing out a reply to. Look, if that is honestly how you feel about Eve you should consider looking for another game. If you are hanging around waiting for CCP to stop listening to the 'griefers', then don't. The 'griefers' are customers too .. and just because they don't want to play nice characters does not mean they are somehow inherently evil. At some point you have to wake up and realise that there are some nasty things out in Eve, it isn't the flowerpicking fairyland utopia you want it to be, and it shouldn't be. If you want to survive then maybe you should take a good long look at those you despise so much and see why they succeed. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.26 09:13:00 - [28] Nanobotter Mk2, you didn't say if you thought cargo expanders were combat mods or not. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.26 14:45:00 - [29] Originally by: Maya Rkell Avon, "It is about offering a similar method of travel, but with drawbacks." No, that is ONE option, and one which you are utterly stuck into, when there are other perfectly adequate soloutions to Oveur's posed problems, and some temporary soloutions like CorpBM's which would work for reducing lag, allowing time for a proper soloution to be found. "The 'griefers' are customers too .. and just because they don't want to play nice characters does not mean they are somehow inherently evil." Nope. There is just, as said before, a consistant push from them for certain sorts of changes. Changes which suit only their playstyle, and must be looked at in that light. Maya, the system I propose is NOT my preference. My preference, as with most "Grief PK's", it the total removal of instas with no substitute. My proposal is my compromise position. You think it is just "Grief PK's" pushing their agenda here? Or that all game change proposals are put forward by those players? Get over yourself. The game is nowhere near as harsh as it used to be .. so I wonder who pushed for all the changes that brought us to where we are today? Things change, I know. Hell, the fact that a carebear like you is in Forsaken Empire is proof enough of that. How that name has fallen. That does not, however, mean that the ideal of Eve is lost. Some of us will stand up and fight for it. Eve isn't meant to be easy. The whole game is a struggle against adversity. Without that struggle, what is left? A hanger full of goodies and a wallet full of ISK? Whoopdy-doo. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.26 14:53:00 - [30] I don't appreciate people questioning my honesty, k? The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur

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