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The Nighthawk and the incredibly complex math surrounding it's bonuses

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Elenath Gallente The Vindaloo Enema Disasters	Posted - 2006.08.23 19:00:00 - [1] Have any Devs (or Tux) been able to finally confirm what most of the player-base has already known for months - that the Nighthawk sucks until it gets an ROF bonus... and that adding the new heavy rockets to balance the ship will only break the Cerberus? Or are we looking at more months of waiting till this deeply confounding issue can be resolved?
vyperpit Gallente Yes no maybe - i dont know	Posted - 2006.08.23 19:31:00 - [2] Originally by: Elenath Have any Devs (or Tux) been able to finally confirm what most of the player-base has already known for months - that the Nighthawk sucks until it gets an ROF bonus... and that adding the new heavy rockets to balance the ship will only break the Cerberus? Or are we looking at more months of waiting till this deeply confounding issue can be resolved? its ok for what its ment to do! but i know for a fact, if people push hard enough tux will obay Precision heavy missile[max skill]: 185.625DMG: 42.18exp radius: 2.25kmps exp vel 185.62561.25= 1392.1875 DMG Add one BCU T2 gives:: 1531.4dmg burst to anything with 42 sig or higher at a range of upto 51km so basicly you are crying that you can take a taranis shields armor and half structure in one shot? at upto 50km? without worrying about tracking? well max skills + 1 target painter does that!! Or that you can pop a AF in 2 shots? hell perhaps your crying because you need to fit 1 bcu to do that? when u can easily fit 3? Use it to pop support, things like cepters/AF/interdictors/frigs/destroyers but if ur too chicken to lower your tank for one god dam painter then what can i say but no, lets show tux graphs of an astarte doing 700dps, oh and be sure not to tell him that it needs cap to use its guns, a mwd to get into range, a webber to hit anything, can fit less dmg mods, can not stab up! i hate the caldari race all you guys do is moan moan moan
Elenath Gallente The Vindaloo Enema Disasters	Posted - 2006.08.23 19:39:00 - [3] Edited by: Elenath on 23/08/2006 19:42:29 Interesting... someone responds who is whining about someone who isn't whining by calling a whiner. I love watching children. Explain how the idea you presented could not also be achieved by using a Caracal... for nearly 2% of the price. And then maybe, just maybe, you could run the numbers on the DPS of the other combat Command Ships compared to the Nighthawk. Yes, please... we want a very expensive, VERY skill intensive anti-frigate platform. GREAT IDEA! Use... your... brain... then post.
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.08.23 19:41:00 - [4] Edited by: Malthros Zenobia on 23/08/2006 19:45:04 Originally by: vyperpit Originally by: Elenath Have any Devs (or Tux) been able to finally confirm what most of the player-base has already known for months - that the Nighthawk sucks until it gets an ROF bonus... and that adding the new heavy rockets to balance the ship will only break the Cerberus? Or are we looking at more months of waiting till this deeply confounding issue can be resolved? its ok for what its ment to do! but i know for a fact, if people push hard enough tux will obay Precision heavy missile[max skill]: 185.625DMG: 42.18exp radius: 2.25kmps exp vel 185.62561.25= 1392.1875 DMG Add one BCU T2 gives:: 1531.4dmg burst to anything with 42 sig or higher at a range of upto 51km so basicly you are crying that you can take a taranis shields armor and half structure in one shot? at upto 50km? without worrying about tracking? well max skills + 1 target painter does that!! Or that you can pop a AF in 2 shots? hell perhaps your crying because you need to fit 1 bcu to do that? when u can easily fit 3? Use it to pop support, things like cepters/AF/interdictors/frigs/destroyers but if ur too chicken to lower your tank for one god dam painter then what can i say but no, lets show tux graphs of an astarte doing 700dps, oh and be sure not to tell him that it needs cap to use its guns, a mwd to get into range, a webber to hit anything, can fit less dmg mods, can not stab up! i hate the caldari race all you guys do is moan moan moan People are complaining that any inty with a clue is still not going to take any damage from precision missiles fired by this ship. You can outrun a nighthawk's precision heavies in most inties without trying very hard. It's not like you can't break 2km/s with just a T2 AB on an inty, let alone 4-5km/s with a MWD, which will laugh at the explosion speed of a precision heavy. Yes, lets show graphs of the Astre doing 700dps. Let's not forget to show how it will wtfpwn a battleship, and with a web will probably even pop ceptors that get too close, either with lucky shots, or drones.
vyperpit Gallente Yes no maybe - i dont know	Posted - 2006.08.23 19:44:00 - [5] Originally by: Elenath Interesting... someone responds who is whining about someone who isn't whining by calling a whiner. I love watching children. Explain how the idea you presented could not be better achieved by using a Caracal... for nearly 2% of the price. Use... your... brain... then post. are you stupid or what? Caldari have it so easy you play the game on king mode! But i keep saying, if enough people cry for a long enough time tuxford will bend now, tell me what you dont like about the dam nighthawk! because its a fine ship, what the fek do u want changing. its got a role, anti support, hell you cant complain about the role which is what all you are doing, u want more damage which will change it from anti support to damage dealer. now if u want its role changed cry for that, dont say its underpowered because i dont know any other ship which can insta cepters and support like the nighthawk can, it can do this with no webber and at 0meters to 50km while maintaining a MASSIVE tank!
vyperpit Gallente Yes no maybe - i dont know	Posted - 2006.08.23 19:45:00 - [6] Edited by: vyperpit on 23/08/2006 19:45:10 Originally by: Malthros Zenobia People are complaining that any inty with a clue is still not going to take any damage from precision missiles fired by this ship. and why not? also same could be said about the astarte, any inty not stupid enough to get within 10km gets ZERO DPS
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.08.23 19:48:00 - [7] Originally by: vyperpit Edited by: vyperpit on 23/08/2006 19:45:10 Originally by: Malthros Zenobia People are complaining that any inty with a clue is still not going to take any damage from precision missiles fired by this ship. and why not? also same could be said about the astarte, any inty not stupid enough to get within 10km gets ZERO DPS The Astarte isn't given bonuses made for killing faster ships, and it is actually more useful than a HAC of its racial type. The nighthawk is NOT more useful than the cerb, unless you plan to passive tank and do **-poor DPS. The Nighthawk is borked. The bonus velocity for explosions sucks out loud. Are you getting it yet? Or are you still too blinded by your "OMG TEH CLADARI WHINE I HATE THEM ** YOU NIGHTHAWK USERS" bias?
babylonstew Caldari Caldari Scouting and Intel Group	Posted - 2006.08.23 19:48:00 - [8] Originally by: vyperpit Edited by: vyperpit on 23/08/2006 19:45:10 Originally by: Malthros Zenobia People are complaining that any inty with a clue is still not going to take any damage from precision missiles fired by this ship. and why not? also same could be said about the astarte, any inty not stupid enough to get within 10km gets ZERO DPS last i checked it could field twice as many light drones as the uber frig killer nighthawk and like the op said, wtf is the point of a coomand ship anti frig platform? or would you like the astate to get tracking bonuses on small guns in exchange for its current ones? Forum advice Linkage
Elenath Gallente The Vindaloo Enema Disasters	Posted - 2006.08.23 19:50:00 - [9] You, once again, managed to respond without answering any questions. All you are doing is crying like a child about Caldari being easy mode and other assorted garbage. Your corporation name fits you PERFECTLY. Please stay out of conversations until you have something of substance to say and can answer questions properly. Stop trolling, ruining threads (as I see you have done in other places), and grow up. Until then I'm ignoring your responses... which I have failed to do up to this point.
vyperpit Gallente Yes no maybe - i dont know	Posted - 2006.08.23 19:50:00 - [10] Originally by: Malthros Zenobia Are you getting it yet? Or are you still too blinded by your "OMG TEH CLADARI WHINE I HATE THEM **** YOU NIGHTHAWK USERS" bias? no, you have yet to provide me with any evidence it sucks, all u say is that it does, what is wrong with it eh?
vyperpit Gallente Yes no maybe - i dont know	Posted - 2006.08.23 19:52:00 - [11] Originally by: Elenath You, once again, managed to respond without answering any questions. All you are doing is crying like a child about Caldari being easy mode and other assorted garbage. Your corporation name fits you PERFECTLY. Please stay out of conversations until you have something of substance to say and can answer questions properly. Stop trolling, ruining threads (as I see you have done in other places), and grow up. Until then I'm ignoring your responses... which I have failed to do up to this point. more proof that the nighthawk needs a boost, with this much evidence i dont think it will take long u know
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.08.23 19:55:00 - [12] Originally by: vyperpit its got a role, anti support, hell you cant complain about the role which is what all you are doing, u want more damage which will change it from anti support to damage dealer. now if u want its role changed cry for that, dont say its underpowered because i dont know any other ship which can insta cepters and support like the nighthawk can, it can do this with no webber and at 0meters to 50km while maintaining a MASSIVE tank! 1. The Nighthawk sucks as Anti-support, the Caldari CBC are the only ones that aren't 'bigger hacs', and technically speaking, it's the other CBCs that are broken, however don't be so naive as to call a COMMAND SHIP an anti-support ship. I can give better anti-frig support in a Harpy or a Moa, or even a Railox with T2 ammo. A useless explosion velocity bonus does not an anti-support ship make. 2. Rupture, Moa, Thorax, all 4 destroyers. Those are just a few ships off the top of my head which can kill inties better than a Nighthawk. You'd be suprised at how hard it is to cover 50-70km in an inty when even a cruiser is blasting you to hell with rails or arties. All CBCs can maintank a MASSIVE tank, as you put it, as well. I'm done wasting my time with you, because you are speaking out of ignorance, and have no clue as to what you are talking about. As an 'anti-support ship', the nighthawk FAILS. End of discussion.
vyperpit Gallente Yes no maybe - i dont know	Posted - 2006.08.23 20:03:00 - [13] Originally by: Malthros Zenobia Originally by: vyperpit its got a role, anti support, hell you cant complain about the role which is what all you are doing, u want more damage which will change it from anti support to damage dealer. now if u want its role changed cry for that, dont say its underpowered because i dont know any other ship which can insta cepters and support like the nighthawk can, it can do this with no webber and at 0meters to 50km while maintaining a MASSIVE tank! 1. The Nighthawk sucks as Anti-support, the Caldari CBC are the only ones that aren't 'bigger hacs', and technically speaking, it's the other CBCs that are broken, however don't be so naive as to call a COMMAND SHIP an anti-support ship. I can give better anti-frig support in a Harpy or a Moa, or even a Railox with T2 ammo. A useless explosion velocity bonus does not an anti-support ship make. 2. Rupture, Moa, Thorax, all 4 destroyers. Those are just a few ships off the top of my head which can kill inties better than a Nighthawk. You'd be suprised at how hard it is to cover 50-70km in an inty when even a cruiser is blasting you to hell with rails or arties. All CBCs can maintank a MASSIVE tank, as you put it, as well. I'm done wasting my time with you, because you are speaking out of ignorance, and have no clue as to what you are talking about. As an 'anti-support ship', the nighthawk FAILS. End of discussion. eh, i didnt say the other cs where anti support, but the nighthawk is! and no, the nighthawk definitly doesnt fail as an anti support ship! now it seems like u dont like the role of anti support, cry me a river! it can and does kill support very very easily, but dont give up hope, tux can only take so much crap before he has to do something oh, and lets assume you do get astarte damage, hope u dont ***** too much when you got 5km range!
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.23 20:05:00 - [14] Since this is a Caldari thread, I would expect a reply within a few days. Never mind me, im just bitter. :) --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Waxau Liberty Rogues Tactical Narcotics Team	Posted - 2006.08.23 20:09:00 - [15] What everyone is annoyed with, as am i, is that the nighthawk has THE ONLY purely specialised role out of the field CBC. Astarte - damage...sleipnir - damage...absolution - damage...nighthawk - paper fan for flies Get real - we dont want all the ships uber, just as uber as the rest of the damn ships
vyperpit Gallente Yes no maybe - i dont know	Posted - 2006.08.23 20:15:00 - [16] Originally by: Waxau What everyone is annoyed with, as am i, is that the nighthawk has THE ONLY purely specialised role out of the field CBC. Astarte - damage...sleipnir - damage...absolution - damage...nighthawk - paper fan for flies Get real - we dont want all the ships uber, just as uber as the rest of the damn ships this i can agree with
Waxau Liberty Rogues Tactical Narcotics Team	Posted - 2006.08.23 20:20:00 - [17] Now i dont know about others, but i do not mind if the nighthawk gets a boost, or not. But i would like it to be on par with the other field command ships. The way i see it is that the Fleet command ships are often chosen due to their tanks, and therefore can soemtimes survive longer to outdamage the field command ships. Now if we nerf the other field command ships to make them on par with the nighthawk, no one will be happy, and the fleet command ships will be used even more in the way field command ships should be. However the other alternative is boost the nighthawk so its on par. This has alot less downsides than the first idea. But thats just my opinion, and im certain others wont agree. But thats why i think it needs a boost. Not because im not loving the ship, as i really do. But i feel at a different level compared to the other CBC pilots out there. Im waiting to pilot my vulture so i can do more DAMAGE - and that shouldnt be the case. It should be the oposite. Wax
babylonstew Caldari Caldari Scouting and Intel Group	Posted - 2006.08.23 20:21:00 - [18] so exactly how many anti frig ships do you think any one race actually needs? lets see, caldaro have in no particular order. kestrel merlin caracal (precission lights) hawk harpy cormorant even flycatcher could prolly do a better job with rockets or lights then the nighthawk nighthawk ferox with precission lights moa at range eagle at range cerburus have i missed any? so dont you think the nighthawk should actually be a DAMAGE DEALER like the other cbc's? Forum advice Linkage
Elenath Gallente The Vindaloo Enema Disasters	Posted - 2006.08.23 20:22:00 - [19] Originally by: Waxau What everyone is annoyed with, as am i, is that the nighthawk has THE ONLY purely specialised role out of the field CBC. Astarte - damage...sleipnir - damage...absolution - damage...nighthawk - paper fan for flies Get real - we dont want all the ships uber, just as uber as the rest of the damn ships While I understand the underlying premise... and agree that all ships should not be cookie cutter replicas of one another... nearly every single person that I have spoken with that has any long-time experience in this game with Caldari ships has absolutely no desire for a very expensive anti-frigate platform that takes months to train for... particularly when it is no better at taking out frigates than any other mid-sized Caldari ship armed with heavy or assault launchers. The TNP bonus on the ship is next to useless... and without an ROF bonus the ship cannot even achieve the same DPS as a Cerberus... which is a ship class below Command Ships. All the other combat Command Ships have equivalent tanking ability with far superior damage output... even against frigates. The Nighthawk is, in every definition of the word, redundant. Not to mention... expensive, time consuming to train for... and completely sub-par when compared with it's counterparts.
vyperpit Gallente Yes no maybe - i dont know	Posted - 2006.08.23 20:25:00 - [20] the nighthawk takes out support much faster than any of the other command ships for sure! now if that is its role. then its doing a good job, if you dont think it shoul have this role, then say that!
Lucian Corvinus Gallente Expert Systems	Posted - 2006.08.23 20:32:00 - [21] Edited by: Lucian Corvinus on 23/08/2006 20:35:14 Originally by: vyperpit eh, i didnt say the other cs where anti support, but the nighthawk is! and no, the nighthawk definitly doesnt fail as an anti support ship! now it seems like u dont like the role of anti support, cry me a river! it can and does kill support very very easily, but dont give up hope, tux can only take so much crap before he has to do something oh, and lets assume you do get astarte damage, hope u dont ***** too much when you got 5km range! Ohhh mighty all knowing EVE oracle, have you actually tried the nighthawk, or are you just busy trying to keep the gallente edge, as the current win button of the month, by flaming other players posts? EDIT: Ohh and people are complaining that the nighthawk got that "frig killing duty". Mainly because the cerberus and caracal can do a better job because they are ALOT more agile, cost a fraction and you need alot less skills to pilot them.
vyperpit Gallente Yes no maybe - i dont know	Posted - 2006.08.23 20:35:00 - [22] Edited by: vyperpit on 23/08/2006 20:35:36 Originally by: Lucian Corvinus Originally by: vyperpit eh, i didnt say the other cs where anti support, but the nighthawk is! and no, the nighthawk definitly doesnt fail as an anti support ship! now it seems like u dont like the role of anti support, cry me a river! it can and does kill support very very easily, but dont give up hope, tux can only take so much crap before he has to do something oh, and lets assume you do get astarte damage, hope u dont *** too much when you got 5km range! Ohhh mighty all knowing EVE oracle, have you actually tried the nighthawk, or are you just busy trying to keep the gallente edge, as the current win button of the month, by flaming other players posts? yes yung one,le ol nighthawk cant ***frigs and i dont fly galante, i fly mini
Lucian Corvinus Gallente Expert Systems	Posted - 2006.08.23 20:51:00 - [23] Originally by: vyperpit yes yung one,le ol nighthawk cant ***frigs and i dont fly galante, i fly mini let me try again... Nighthawk pilots want what the other races got, which is a ship capable of doing 140% of damage compared to their race hacs. The nighthawk can do 90% of the cerberus. So weeee if it can kill a frig, so can the astarte with some t2 drones, but that ship can also ***battleships, which the nighthawk can't.
DoctorColossal Pervius	Posted - 2006.08.23 22:00:00 - [24] Edited by: DoctorColossal Pervius on 23/08/2006 22:01:58 Missles = multiple frig pawnage. Caldari command ships = super tanked whether passive/active or combo. Missles = zero cap use Allows for neutralisers to rip BS tanks I assume with probably one of the best tanks in game the Caldari Command ships need not worry mch about cap issues. With no way of disrupting their weapon systems apart from standard ECM it is yet another advantage. Not 100% sure of the point your making.... guess what? Ships are different! EDIT* drones can be.....targeted and shot down. Oooooh. Doc P Chief Engineering Officer Black Ice Tech
Elenath Gallente The Vindaloo Enema Disasters	Posted - 2006.08.23 22:21:00 - [25] Originally by: DoctorColossal Pervius Edited by: DoctorColossal Pervius on 23/08/2006 22:01:58 Missles = multiple frig pawnage. Caldari command ships = super tanked whether passive/active or combo. Missles = zero cap use Allows for neutralisers to rip BS tanks I assume with probably one of the best tanks in game the Caldari Command ships need not worry mch about cap issues. With no way of disrupting their weapon systems apart from standard ECM it is yet another advantage. Not 100% sure of the point your making.... guess what? Ships are different! EDIT* drones can be.....targeted and shot down. Oooooh. If you have read all the intelligible responses in this thread (ergo. ignoring most of Vyperpit's responses) and you still do not understand what the problem is... then I have no idea what else to tell you. This is a long standing issue that many people have a problem with... this is not a new or complex issue. As for your comment about drones being 'shot down'... according to that argument... so can missiles.
Kyguard LFC 3rd Front Alliance	Posted - 2006.08.23 22:28:00 - [26] The simple fact of the matter is that the Nighthawk has a useless bonus ad it needs to e changed to something that isn't redundant === God is on the side with the best artillery.
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.08.23 22:34:00 - [27] Can you people please stop feeding the troll?
Nathanial Victor	Posted - 2006.08.23 22:43:00 - [28] to flame or not to flame... that is the question but of course :) caldari ship that isn't top of its class? aw thats too bad. i support the person above w/ the (you got game on easy mode) comment lolololololololol. omg why didn't anyone tell me i was an alt ?!?!
Sapphiraa	Posted - 2006.08.23 23:24:00 - [29] Originally by: Nathanial Victor to flame or not to flame... that is the question but of course :) caldari ship that isn't top of its class? aw thats too bad. i support the person above w/ the (you got game on easy mode) comment lolololololololol.[/i] As far as Caldari beign the best ships in the game,a nd Caldari being easy button? Bull -.- Caldari rely on sheilds to tank, and a lot of cap to do it...I havent personally flown any other races ships but a raven cant kill a megathron at range...nor can a scorpion even bust its tank with only 4 launcher hardpoints/4 gunnery hardpoints...but then i guess any self respecting caldari pilot who knows what hes doing wont be running an ecm boat when hes in a scorpion will he? noooo we cant have a scorpion pilot using ecm when he gets a bonus to the ship, thatd be fitting the caldari bs role too well wouldnt it? same point with the nighthawk, which im looking at right now, its not supposed to be a frigate killer. ITS A T2 BATTLECRUISER FOR CRYIN OUT LOUD!! you woudlnt use a t1 bc to kill frigates, so why would you use a t2 one for such reasons? point proven -.- now stfu and crawl back under your rock
Nathanial Victor	Posted - 2006.08.23 23:31:00 - [30] Originally by: Sapphiraa I havent personally flown any other races ships thank you, professor

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