I see the problem now. You're arguing with numbers, but not actually providing any, you know, NUMBERS to back it up. Let me show you an example of how we argue while using actual proof to back our claims:
Zealot versus vaga:
For the zealot we'll use the fist fit, swapping the tc/sebo for a web and a WD:
For the vaga, we'll go with the standard 2 LSE 2 damage mods + DC II (the other slots are largely irrelevant since we're not looking at speed or range, this is just a brawling fit)
Raw numbers:
Zealot has 500 DPS with 56k EHP
Vaga has 530 with 29k EHP
After resists on opposing ship are factored in:
Vaga deals 135 DPS with RFPP
Zealot deals 130 with INMF
Meaning:
Zealot takes 223 seconds to kill a vaga
Vaga takes 437 seconds to kill a zealot

Every race is balanced, some are just more balanced than others. Why don't you try flying minmatar before you complain.

Yes I am aware of the patch. I am encouraged. (I actually bought fittings for a couple of 200mm Rail Thorax just for kicks - they will create LOL lossmails, but I want to test the tracking of them at disruptor range). I think they should do nothing to any other races until this patch shakes out and we see how it goes. Too many changes at once can hide real issues.

If I said Amarr need general buffing, I didnt mean to. I thought I said they were balanced with Matar. They Amarr (and everyone else) do need some individual ship-rebalances though.

EDIT: And Liang, I agree with you. Baby steps are best.

Matar ships eighter have to loose their speed advantage or have real drawbacks in other fields like dps or tank or something ,but currently they dont have any disadvantages at all , pls show me what disadvantages matar has , you wont be able to find any meaningfull I'm sure of it.
+ add that matar has the most advantages too , I dont want to list it as it was done many times.

So pls step out the 1v1 no disengage situation ,which never happens and try to use actual situations.
Like many vs few, where if matar is the many im pretty sure they can win the fight easily , or if they are the few they can just run away. Basically matar wins or it is a draw.

More or less this...

Ok Forum ate my post so here is the short version so I can go to sleep.

Remove High Slot from Drake, Cane, Harbinger. Remove Weapon Hardpoint from Drake and Harbinger. Give 7.5-10% Opt Bonus to Harbinger replacing Cap Bonus. Replace Cane Rof Bonus with Opt / Falloff / Tracking Bonus. Cut Heavy Missile Flight Time so Heavies work out to 50-60 Km. Leave current Myrm in as is.

Do you remember for the amarr buff back than some years ago, when they lowered EM resists due some stupid reasons
(oh no lasers hit the highest resist or something bs) ?
They also lowered explo resists ,and resulted in an over the top matar buff.
Same stealth matar boost just like now. For some reason CCP just cant let opmatar to go.
It is rly said.

Looks like thinking isnt in the matar op set.
The patch made projectiles to hit harder--> matar buff no matter how you try to hide it ,it was a matar buff after all.
It boosted emp ammo too, what most matar used for close range.

And why would that not make Battlecruisers useful.

Are 6 Weapons with 1 Damage Bonus not enough. Would people stop using Heavy Missiles because they go to 60. What about this will kill Battlecruisers.

5% falloff bonus, show me the fit that hits that far.

Cyclone has a falloff bonus now huh.

BTW the new 10% Opt Harbinger stats with Heavypulse would be able to hit that far to it's optimal range with 2 TC's. While a Cane hitting that far would be so far in it's falloff it's Damage would be a joke.

As for outrunning a Harbinger... It is Minmatar of course it will. The long optimal more then makes up for it.

650mm Optimal is not under 4km and you fit 720mm Artillery on a Cane always.
Always.

So the Harbinger would be overpowered but the Cane you were complaining about being underpowered would beat it... Ok there champ.

Absolutely nothing. Since you will still do less DPS then the Drake at that Range without the tank. It will however be instant Dmg and you can switch to MF dmg Crystals up close.

Vega has twice the Falloff Bonus that was proposed so your still using the wrong ship.

Are you using a speadsheet for this sillyness? This is your idea of balance?

Whatever, I can fit both I prefer 650s, YOU may fit 720s "always" but for the type of fighting I often to 650s are better all around, they are right in sweet sport of long point, you can actually hit something with the MWD below 35k AND it lets you fit a better tank.....on a ship that is ALWAYS going to thin in sheild trim.

...and don't bother BCing it, I've never lost one, despite 20 some odd kills.

Not to mention, no kidding atrilery has more than a 4km optimal...I was talking optimal DPS after you cut the ROF bonus and nerf the ship 30% overall. Go back to your spread sheet and show me a 500 DPS arty fit, you aren't getting there without some fairly exotic hardwires AND 650s AND HAMs along with perfect skills....and you are still going to need to overheat.

You play your spreadsheets, I play the game.





After you chop DPS and make it so the options for a shield cane and alpha or leave the field because you harbi is hitting 60km with SHORT RANGE TURRETS

Spare me

What is "going to beat it" a single neut Armor cane? That MAY get to 350DPS





.......jeee that wouldn't sort of make my point.


[quote=Alara IonStorm]
Vega has twice the Falloff Bonus that was proposed so your still using the wrong ship.

No because it should not exist.

We were talking about a Hurricane.... obviously the fact that Tornadoe's 5% falloff bonus only applies to BATTLESHIP SIZED TURRETS would make that a) an outlier, and b) a **** poor comparsion to a Hurricane that mounts MEDIUM guns now would it.

My mistake I wasn't in la la land, I asked where the ship you modeled you numbers was.....

[quote=Alara IonStorm]
That Armor Cane would get 440 DPS with 425mm with RF Ammo(which it could fit now) not counting Drones. As for one Neut sure two is to much for it and should be nerfed.

As for comparing it cut the Trajectory Analysis off of a Vega or Cyn to get the correct number. I can not believe I have to spoon feed you this.

"It'll still win", whch is horseshit, if a shield cane is beating you in an armor Harbi solo your are doing it wrong. I intentially avoid them because a decent point will chase me off the field or draw it out until I screw up. Three times I've JUST managed to escape by virtue of suddely ECM drones when I've tried it.

But again, I want to hear how making a Harbi fire to lock inside optimal is in ANY way balanced.

Fact you can disengage. That is Minmatars strength. You want them to be hard to catch and beat the slowpokes at the same time? Again can not hit to lock range that's twice now.

Your Lock is 62km, with the bonus and Heavy Pulse Scorch you could not hit that far. Why is it that you keep posting wrong numbers. I know you want to here something other then your numbers are wrong but they are again and they make up your argument.

Counter fits are fine but the Cane should get 1 Neut. I don't see what fitting gun size has to do with an RoF Bonus but I am gonna take a wild stab and guess that you meant to say something else again but got it wrong.

Minmatar can disengage without ECM Drones based on speed alone how do you not get this. Your the only one talking bout ECM Drones.

I was right then and am now.

By fitting 425mm Auto's because the loss of the Neut frees up grid space.

You just want to keep your overpowered Cane as is.

[
The problem in general is Teir 2 Battlecruisers as whole. They completely obsolete the Cruiser Class and are just too good for there price.

[
A Targeted nerf to the top 2 would help with the issue as well a change to Cruiser Roles through fitting, bonuses and slot layout.

Bottom Line even with the missing Neut and Bonus Change the Hurricane will still be more then worth the price you pay for it.

[
Back on topic. Is she single?

Hopefully, pls teach us how to do that. As it seems for close range tornado is just superior , and for long range aka 100km insta pop arties are better , if there would be long range sniping reinstituted thing could be different.
At least rail naga is useable , not the best but useable , have to test it out thou in real situations.

It would be a good way to handle it. That or changing Cruisers to be more Role based such as useful Logistics.

Really there is an issue and 1000 different ways to fix it. That was just my 2 Isk

Damn, but it is nice to see a Marriage work out in this day and age.

I think we pretty much argued all of the finer points of this one out. Sorry if I was a kind of a ****.

Fortunately, the Naga has come to blow Winmatar up.

That being said - I dont want them nerfed if it can be helped. I think they are pretty close to Amarr as far as balance. Gallente, and to some extent Caldari (excluding Draek) need to be brought up to a comparable level.

Just my opinion.

Ruah Piskonit yep, matar should have lost his speed advantage when ac-s were buffed.
Just look at the tornado wtf is that 1660mps , that is faster than my nano cruisers... clearly unbalanced.