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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
15898
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Posted - 2014.12.31 08:54:24 -
[1] - Quote
Mike Azariah wrote:You cannot be both safe AND a threat.
A succint explaination of the reason for the long distance travel changes.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
15925
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Posted - 2015.01.06 08:47:11 -
[2] - Quote
dragon65 wrote:in part i do not have a problem with the Jump Fatigue, on the other hand with it and the nerfing the carrier jump range it takes an entire day to move 30 jumps. honestly i have a carrier that i cant use anymore i trained up for it so i was usefull but now im not by haveing both it just seems over kill.
That was exactly the whole point of the change: To make being 30 jumps away from somewhere actually mean something.
Your carrier is still extremely useful; It's just not usable to help dunk on someone 3 regions away and get you home for tea with no consequences any more.
Since you're in TEST, fights are coming to you pretty much daily in any case.
EDIT: Incidentally, you can use gates now; it should take you no more than a couple of hours to go 30 jumps in a carrier - if you want to trade jump fatigue for risk.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
15933
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Posted - 2015.01.11 23:43:09 -
[3] - Quote
Lorren Canada wrote:M1k3y Koontz wrote:Hi, I live in nullsec. PL are two cynos over, and BL a few cynos in the other direction. Without fatigue, we would be unable to operate with capitals. For the sake of argument I won't argue this but I will say that there are much better ways of limiting capital mobility than fatigue. It's really nothing more than an enormous pain in the ass in every possible way and has severely hampered some other times of game play like Blopsing which is not longer attractive as it accumulates fatigue.
I'd be the first agree that fatigue itself isn't an ideal mechanic - I'd prefer something that makes it progressively harder and less safe to use instant travel rather than just increasing a timer.
But whatever mechanic is proposed will, in the end, have to have the same fundamental effect as the JF mechanic has now: making long distance rapid travel something that has extremely significant consequences. And candidly, it's the fact of the existance of consequences rather than their exact manifestation that is what most of the critics are really complaining about.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
15969
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Posted - 2015.01.23 19:40:19 -
[4] - Quote
Galadriel Vasquez wrote:I think its a good idea sloppily put - i like Corebloodbrothers idea of same region no fatigue....
Start fleet on far side of region A. Fatigue = Zero Cyno Jump right across region A to the gate to region B (no fatigue) Jump through gate to region B. Cyno Jump right across region B to the gate to region C (no fatigue) ... Arrive in region Z with no jump fatigue.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
16276
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Posted - 2015.04.28 18:59:38 -
[5] - Quote
You seem to think that the idea is to stop long range deployment at all. It isn't. Deploy away!
The point is to make it such that a long range deployment is now a significant commitment and involves leaving in-space assets at risk. It is.
Half the problem was that it was possible to move a supercap fleet across the map in literally less time than it takes a freighter to cross 9-2
The other half was that is was possible to move them back just as quickly.
When there is close to zero opportunity cost for moving very quickly, then everyone is your next door neighbour. A situation like this very quickly leads to a two-colour map with zero opportunity for anyone not in one of the two blocs to have any meaningful independent existence regardless of any sov system in place.
Thus the three phases of the sov rework, the first two of which have completely reversed the situation as it was in September 2014
1) The Phoebe changes make it militarily even possible to have more than 2 powers on the map. Pre-Phoebe it wasn't.
2) The "Fozziesov" changes will make it extremely difficult (not impossible, but requiring enormous effort) to hold space that you don't live in and utilise. Currently it's trivial.
3) The 3rd phase will be to rework the local economy of nullsec to make it viable to have a relatively small amount of space support a large number of players.
There will still be wars. There will still be coalitions and diplomacy and politics. There will still be long distance deployments and failcascades and battles. What we won't have, if this all works out, is the old stagnant sitaution where everyone sat on their hands for a year at a time, then there was a gigantic lagfest battle that ultimately meant nothing, because the winner didn't even want the loser's space.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
16276
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Posted - 2015.04.28 19:01:24 -
[6] - Quote
Incidentally, if all you want to do is move your "taxi carrier", then get a corpie or a friend or even an alt to find an appropriate wormhole.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
16320
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Posted - 2015.05.05 07:39:33 -
[7] - Quote
Stuyvenstein Pompetti wrote:I support the idea of jump fatigue in making sov less stagnant, but I also think having it on jump bridges is a little overkill but removing it from jbs would then most likely make most people go jump bridge crazy. So instead, maybe have a fatigue reduction bonus on jump bridges the same way as on industrial ships?
So we can keep the lovely big coalitions intact?:
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
16362
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Posted - 2015.05.10 09:58:53 -
[8] - Quote
knobber Jobbler wrote:Malcanis wrote:You seem to think that the idea is to stop long range deployment at all. It isn't. Deploy away!
The point is to make it such that a long range deployment is now a significant commitment and involves leaving in-space assets at risk. It is.
Half the problem was that it was possible to move a supercap fleet across the map in literally less time than it takes a freighter to cross 9-2
The other half was that is was possible to move them back just as quickly. . Yes, which I agreed with, as stated. Is there something wrong with reading comprehension in this forum or are people deliberately truculent?
Because there's no tangible difference between a "space taxi" and a carrier that's being deployed to support force projection. How on earth is whatever mechanic you'd like to see going to differentiate between the two? A pop-up where you can check a box that says you pinky-swear you're not moving your "space taxi" for any nefarious purposes?
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
16374
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Posted - 2015.05.15 20:24:35 -
[9] - Quote
Devilish Ledoux wrote:If the nerves of my brain were laid out in a line, they would stretch approximately 180,000 kilometers. If the word "hate" was written on every single neuron, it would still not equal one one-billionth of the hate I have for jump fatigue.
Hate.
Hate.
HATE.
*apologies to Harlan Ellison
It sustains me.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
16389
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Posted - 2015.05.17 08:40:13 -
[10] - Quote
http://i.imgur.com/Co8JGIV.png
OP SUCCESS
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
16396
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Posted - 2015.05.19 07:32:28 -
[11] - Quote
Ashlar Maidstone wrote:Elenahina wrote:All I can say is - you did it to yourselves. The jump fatigue mechanic is a direct response to the common place actions in nullsec - to wit, blueing up half the known universe and then blasting across the galaxy in back like you were going to the corner market, and stagnating the cluster in a way that had never been done before.
You created this monster. Deal with it. I agree, current CSM sold us out and I have 30 days of jump timer to prove it.
Actually that was me, not the current CSM.
:smug:
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
16403
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Posted - 2015.05.20 22:05:57 -
[12] - Quote
test
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
16405
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Posted - 2015.05.21 06:12:26 -
[13] - Quote
I had a big long reply but the forum get 404ing every time I tried to post it. Forums script is I guess telling me not to waste my time trying to reason with people who don't care about reasons.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
16405
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Posted - 2015.05.21 06:17:04 -
[14] - Quote
It's all very well saying that there are "painless ways to deal with this", but all the "painless ways" so far proposed have either reduced down to "pinky swear" solutions or are just straight up "let me move as many ships around as fast as I like but this is a power projection nerf because whargle garble". If you've come up with a way to tesseract the hypersphere, then by all means enlighten and impress me.
Don't take too long about it though, please. I'm not sure how much longer I can hold my breath.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
16416
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Posted - 2015.05.22 15:17:09 -
[15] - Quote
Having lots of smaller groups rather than 2 ultra blocs who only have one fight a year is the very coolest of those things.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
16418
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Posted - 2015.05.22 20:02:07 -
[16] - Quote
Jump bridges are still pretty cool things to have and use even if they're not "free".
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
16444
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Posted - 2015.05.27 06:59:23 -
[17] - Quote
Reeses Peices wrote:Mike, don't you wonder why people are leaving Eve in droves since Jump fatigue was introduced?
Because they pine for the good old days when 0.0 was split between 2 blocs and there was 1 big fight per year?
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
16445
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Posted - 2015.05.27 15:20:52 -
[18] - Quote
knobber Jobbler wrote:I think http://eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility says where we're at in current game interest. Mike, when was the last time you used a JB? Have you ever used one? That's not a facetious question but so far in this thread I see passive aggressive former CSMs and current CSMs who I don't think have the experience in this field to give anything other than opinions based on anecdotes. Neither which are really that helpful to discussion about what is a divisive issue.
And your evidence that jump fatigue is the major cause is....?
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
16446
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Posted - 2015.05.28 10:54:58 -
[19] - Quote
Still waiting for a suggestion that isn't either pinky-swear or whargle garble.
When you come up with one, let's continue the discussion then.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
16465
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Posted - 2015.06.02 21:07:26 -
[20] - Quote
Well that's the voice of the whargle-garble constituency, everybody.
Now let's hear from the "viable alternative suggestion" demographic.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
16467
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Posted - 2015.06.02 21:36:41 -
[21] - Quote
General Xenophon wrote: To people who trololol and say this Jump Fatigue thing is the best thing since sliced bread, what does this change actually address or -dare I say- fix, in any way at all?
Since you couldn't be bothered to participate in or even follow or even be aware of the lengthy and closely argued discussion that started a couple of years ago, and which was reprised at length in the change announcement thread, it doesn't seem that it would be a worthwhile expenditure of my time in explaining it to you all over again.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
16467
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Posted - 2015.06.02 21:42:49 -
[22] - Quote
General Xenophon wrote:Malcanis wrote:General Xenophon wrote: To people who trololol and say this Jump Fatigue thing is the best thing since sliced bread, what does this change actually address or -dare I say- fix, in any way at all?
Since you couldn't be bothered to participate in or even follow or even be aware of the lengthy and closely argued discussion that started a couple of years ago, and which was reprised at length in the change announcement thread, it doesn't seem that it would be a worthwhile expenditure of my time in explaining it to you all over again. Since I've seen no argument worth responding to as to why this helps any part of Eve beyond just breaking something. No. and since while you were posting about how I didn't read and missed reading where I wrote 'any links would be great' and how I just got back and am learning about this atrocious change.
Here you go
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
16468
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Posted - 2015.06.02 22:25:55 -
[23] - Quote
General Xenophon wrote:
It would be great that instead of nerfing the crap out of things, something else was added to the game instead to balance it out. What that would be in this case is a good question.
For example, capitals and supercapitals can now use gates. That's a pretty big balancing change.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
16474
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Posted - 2015.06.03 07:53:48 -
[24] - Quote
Well the travel changes are explicitly supposed to be a power projection nerf. A "balancing change" that was 'a big enough positive' wouldn't really meet the target goals.
Anyway: you asked for the reason for the jump fatigue mechanic. You've been given a source for the reasons.
It's thoroughly evident that you're not going to accept those reasons and are just sealioning, so at this point I will content myself with the following
1) I did it: it was me. Along with Manfred Sideous, Marlona Sky, I campaigned as hard as I could for a power projection nerf; it was one of the core issues in my CSM campaign, and I was voted in by the players who were left in no doubt whatsoever about my views on the topic. I put the case as passionately and eloquently as I could, face to face in person, with Fozzie until he cried and asked me to stop.
So that answers your other question about who voted for this, and I get to smug about being instrumental in making it happen too.
2) Immediately after it was announced - before it was even implemented - the PP nerf started having the desired effect, and now 6 months later the EVE sov map is hugely more diverse and fragmented. From a single political axis between CFC:N3 a year ago, we now have this with whatever the factorial of all those independent blocs are to provide content and drive events.
So I also get to smug about being proved completely correct about the effects of power projection, and the visible and undeniable benefits of removing it.
Your move, kid. I'll be over here, making things happen and being right.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
16483
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Posted - 2015.06.04 08:22:17 -
[25] - Quote
Sorry, I can't make out what you're saying over the background sound of the sov map being radically redrawn and multiple independent new coalitions showing up.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
16486
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Posted - 2015.06.04 18:26:36 -
[26] - Quote
General Xenophon wrote:Malcanis wrote:Sorry, I can't make out what you're saying over the background sound of the sov map being radically redrawn and multiple independent new coalitions showing up. Goons have sov? Last I checked your alliance was blue to the Imperium. Although I just recently rejoined Goons after being away, I find they get a lot less butthurt about losing ships and sov than everyone else in Eve and can still find enjoyment in the game no matter what happens. After all, they just blew up a stupidly expensive and rare hundred bil ship for giggles and it was an epic fun event.
Yes that's true. Completely irrelevent, but true.
General Xenophon wrote:Changes that affect logistics affect everyone, and while I miss the days of seeing lots of big name alliances holding various areas of space with their allies (06-07 time period, Dusk and Dawn, Razor, MM, for better or worse-BOB, ASCN, RA, etc), changing logistics mechanics via the jump fatigue thing is a bit nutty.
Well I say they not "a bit nutty" and to back my assertion up, I can point to the fact that it has in fact worked.
As you yourself say, you were away for 4-5 years, That means you missed the ever increasing stagnation and homogenisation of nullsec into
Two households, both alike in dignity, In fair Verona, where we lay our scene, From ancient grudge break to new mutiny, Where civil blood makes civil hands unclean.
Merely those two great houses, neither willing to make the first move against the other because both had far more space than they could reasonably use but neither could release any of that space as it would be captured and rented out by the other. So if you were in 0.0, you were in CFC or N3 or renting. Or being punchbagged in Provi, I suppose, as if being a pet kept alive at the whim of greater powers was any fun.
By the end, it was awful, utterly awful. All there was to do was log in for a posted op, wait on titan and hope beyond hope that maybe, just maybe, this time there'd be a fight.
(Just kidding, there was never a bloody fight)
Then you repped the POS or blapped the POS and you logged off again.
General Xenophon wrote:One could just expect that this whole argument about 'power' and how its wield, is now more than ever a numbers game. Who has the most pilots in a set area of space to respond to an area under attack. Or, imagine that, all those capitals in the game just being left where they're needed and more being built to be left in another area, so the whole 'jumping range' or 'fatigue' business becomes an ignored -if annoying- 'feature' of Eve. Game mechanic changes like this are just like building sandcastle walls at low tide and claiming victory against the ocean.
So while the shift from fast travel has been nerfed in a game which is impossibly long and boring to travel in, one might expect an upswing of the 'mega-alliance' numbers thing, which is a whole nother debate altogether, and harkens back to the 'we miss the massive doomsday weapon' thing that cleared fields of ships (although lets be honest, that DD mechanic is never coming back and with as many Titans in-game right now, 0.0 Eve would just turn into a strobe-light-flash animation game).
There can't be an "upswing of the 'mega-alliance' numbers thing" from the starting point, because it was all just two mega alliances. Even if the end point is that it settles down to 3 blocs, that's still 50% better than the shitpile we had in 2014.
Oh and the whole "blocs will just make as many caches as they need with infi ships and infi people willing to put in infi effort to keep them updated to current doctrines" that you're groping your way towards?
Yeah, didn't happen.
Seriously kid, all these obvious objections and os so cunning plans have been raised, examined and dismissed by people far smarter than either of us. They're the people running your alliance, who have - correctly in my opinion, decided that in the new geo-strategic environment abandoning everything south of Fade was the smart play.
Oh, and giving INIT. half of Tenal. That was a master stroke of strategic genuis too!
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
16495
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Posted - 2015.06.05 18:56:15 -
[27] - Quote
Oh jesus, not the "limit the number of systems an alliance can have" thing.
I mean really?
Seriously you had me going for a while there. Now I know you're trolling.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!"
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