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YpsMaI
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2014.11.10 10:20:08 -
[31] - Quote
just nerf tengu |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1862
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Posted - 2014.11.10 10:47:00 -
[32] - Quote
Just remove HAC resistances from T3 and voil+í. They are at cororect pwoer level. Then buff the worse subsystem s that no body uses.
"If brute force does not solve your problem.... then you are surely not using enough!"
For the rest hire PoH |
Recruitment
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Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire
737
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Posted - 2014.11.10 14:43:12 -
[33] - Quote
Thought I'd chime in:
My Proteus is so OP, I just sold it as the garbage it is in current meta, got two ishars and a gila in return. My Tengu is so OP, it (cheap 1.1bil 100mn tengu) is about to be replaced by an orthrus, who does kiting like 200% better. My Loki is so OP, I last flew it to web things for a dreadnought. Since Ashimmus do the Lokis Job about as good and also provide neuts, guess which will remain in my hangar.... Right, the dread. I got corpmates for the webbing. My Legion turned into a carebear vessel for lowclass sites.
All this happened clearly because I'm a scrub and after years of exclusively flying T3s, Guardians and 100mn tengus I have no idea what I'm doing. Or it could just be that I'm not willing to deal with the many downsides of T3s to justify using one instead of superior HACs, CS or pirate cruisers.
Currently, T3s are good for blob-warfare (railprot, beamlegion, artyloki, railgu) and that's about it. They go fast, but Eve in. general goes faster (a bricked proteus makes roughly 1300m/s with decent nav skills, loki and legion can make 1700 with fitting mwd-speed subs but tengu/prot are really happy to exceed 1400 before OH. Battleships go this fast (i.E. Apoc, Mega, Phoon etc.)
Their resistances aren't plus-quam-T2, they are exactly T2. To be precise, a legion's resists are 20% worse than a sacriledge's. Ripping off the last useful piece about them, the resistances, would finally manage to make them worse than current T1 cruisers, almost regardless of price even.
Tl;dr: Go piloting 101, T3s are slow as ****. If you got caught, either your pvp setup sucks or you derped, but don't blame a hull that needs love, not nerfs. In case your fleet got owned by a few T3s with guards, don't blame fleet, improve your target calling or bring ecm next time, it slaughters T3 fleets with their average 15SS across their dps.
"I honestly thought I was in lowsec"
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Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
858
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Posted - 2014.11.10 18:37:44 -
[34] - Quote
Lloyd Roses wrote: Tl;dr: Go piloting 101, T3s are slow as ****. If you got caught, either your pvp setup sucks or you derped, but don't blame a hull that needs love, not nerfs. In case your fleet got owned by a few T3s with guards, don't blame fleet, improve your target calling or bring ecm next time, it slaughters T3 fleets with their average 15SS across their dps.
Don't agree with everything you say but this seems to be the source of a large amount of moaning about T3s - people trying to bring a knife to a gun fight. |
Triana Pure
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2014.11.10 19:54:07 -
[35] - Quote
I personally don't think most of T3s are OP. They are well worth their SP, isk invested in them etc.
Only thing that really requires nerf is Tengu in it's current version for fleet fights. 230k ehp, sig radius of 260, stable at 69%, easy to fit with T2 mods....thats a bit too much. You can't get something like that out of other T3s. It's also a reason why almost every alliance flies tengus. |
Triana Pure
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2014.11.10 19:59:27 -
[36] - Quote
Here is a link to typical Tengu fit in null: Tengu fit
More than BS EHP, HAC sig radiu and excelent DMG projection. But I think simple rehaul of engineering and def subs could fix this. |
Ellendras Silver
CrashCat Corporation
156
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Posted - 2014.11.10 21:27:43 -
[37] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote: 1. The whole T3 discussion varies from the ridiculous to the absurd. 2. They are ships with a role, they do that role reasonably well in wormhole space. 3. They have significant downsides, but we use them because they work. 4. Now someone pulls an idea out of thin air, with no idea how they work, how they are used, and screams "nerf them they are overpowered!!!"
Sorry to disillusion you they are not.
Just because they have cruiser in their name does not mean they need nerfing back to a vexor, or a stabber. They ain't T1 they ain't base cruisers, and they ain't goint to be made T1 because a random someone said they should be.
They should have been named spec-ops or something so the foolish were not encouraged to compare them with base T1 cruisers. There again CCP probably under estimated human stupidity.
1. indeed and you score very high on this point! 2. seriously what is their role ? plz enlighten me 3. you can loose a few SPs which should be fixed but you make it sound like they have a ton of disadvantages and CCP must be happy "some" people want to use them. 4. its not out of thin air, but you dont have the wits to see it, they are OP and that is why it outclasses every T2 cruiser with the exception of logistics
you can name it all you want but it is a cruiser, if it was a battle cruiser CCP would have made it train *race* battle cruiser to 5 and named it a strategic battle cruiser.
[u]Carpe noctem[/u]
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Ellendras Silver
CrashCat Corporation
156
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Posted - 2014.11.10 21:31:43 -
[38] - Quote
Cassius Invictus wrote:Reaver Glitterstim wrote:Cassius Invictus wrote:The idea is terrible. You clearly didn't do a research on the current use of T3. Your idea would make them useless in many aspects of the game (ie. sleeper PvE) where they are the only viable choice. epicurus ataraxia wrote:The whole T3 discussion varies from the ridiculous to the absurd. They are ships with a role, they do that role reasonably well in wormhole space. They have significant downsides, but we use them because they work. Now someone pulls an idea out of thin air, with no idea how they work, how they are used, and screams "nerf them they are overpowered!!!"
Sorry to disillusion you they are not. Translation: Strategic Cruisers are the only ships overpowered enough to run sleepers, therefore if you nerf them in-line with other ships.....(reasoning fades out at this point) Define overpowered. They are very powerful in relation to their size. Its countered by massive price and sp loss. "Reasoning fades out at this point" - well this is the reasoning. So you propose to essentially kill WH space and propose nothing in return? I told you I support nerf to T3 resilience at the same time I told you why your idea is not the best way to do it. So your point is? price and losing some SPs is not balancing! glad we agree that it is OP i posted in several threads about the T3 rebalance and if someone says lets get rid of the SP losing after a T3 loss, and all the T3 lovers yell NO, its a trade off or some BS like that.
[u]Carpe noctem[/u]
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Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
858
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Posted - 2014.11.10 23:44:54 -
[39] - Quote
Triana Pure wrote:Here is a link to typical Tengu fit in null: Tengu fitMore than BS EHP, HAC sig radiu and excelent DMG projection. But I think simple rehaul of engineering and def subs could fix this.
Fairly anaemic dps and only really suited to medium to large gang use - even an eagle in that role has over 100K EHP and slightly better damage projection. |
Triana Pure
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2014.11.11 07:48:08 -
[40] - Quote
Rroff wrote:Triana Pure wrote:Here is a link to typical Tengu fit in null: Tengu fitMore than BS EHP, HAC sig radiu and excelent DMG projection. But I think simple rehaul of engineering and def subs could fix this. Fairly anaemic dps and only really suited to medium to large gang use - even an eagle in that role has over 100K EHP and slightly better damage projection. Outside of a situation where it isn't a pure numbers game those mids sacrificed for tank would get you very dead.
Sure but mid-large fights is what i was talking about :P Adding my opinion on things I know about. |
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Faren Shalni
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
78
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Posted - 2014.11.11 11:11:40 -
[41] - Quote
Any ship in the game is OP when you bring 500 of the things (ok exaggerated but you get the Idea)
Harpies, Eagles, Navpoc's, Drake's, Caracal's, Munnin's, Ishtars(even more op than T3) are all op in their own way when you have loads of them until you use a counter.
Did you know to counter T3's you can Neut them? (except the HAM legion that's designed to keep going) but heres the kicker. You have to be in Neut range............oh dear that means getting close.....something Nullsecers Don't like doing. So part of the Issue With T3's being so OP in Null is that your not bringing the Counter to T3 fleets.
Of course with all that said T3's need a rebalanced amongst themselves with some HP taken off and the less used subs buffed. This is whats needed to be done. Not an axe to knee. You forget that an entire population in the game relies on theses ships as they were designed for W-space to be used in W-space.
Everyone says T3 skill loss was not an excuse for them to be powerful and I call Bull to that as they are the only ship that does it and as much as you may say it 5 days doesn't matter. to a lower SP character that means a lot, and removing SP loss from T3 will remove the uniqueness of a T3. Remember that 5 day train will have the possibility of being lost again
So Much Space
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Bl1SkR1N
Euphoria Released Triumvirate.
47
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Posted - 2014.11.11 12:40:34 -
[42] - Quote
Faren Shalni wrote:Any ship in the game is OP when you bring 500 of the things (ok exaggerated but you get the Idea)
Harpies, Eagles, Navpoc's, Drake's, Caracal's, Munnin's, Ishtars(even more op than T3) are all op in their own way when you have loads of them until you use a counter.
Except that there is no counter to them...unless you suggest hostile geddon fleet should be hunting them around with bunch of nano geddons. They outperform even napocs. Now this is in terms of fleet fights ofcourse |
Faren Shalni
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
78
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Posted - 2014.11.11 16:59:52 -
[43] - Quote
Bl1SkR1N wrote:Faren Shalni wrote:Any ship in the game is OP when you bring 500 of the things (ok exaggerated but you get the Idea)
Harpies, Eagles, Navpoc's, Drake's, Caracal's, Munnin's, Ishtars(even more op than T3) are all op in their own way when you have loads of them until you use a counter. Except that there is no counter to them...unless you suggest hostile geddon fleet should be hunting them around with bunch of nano geddons. They outperform even napocs. Now this is in terms of fleet fights ofcourse
or fighting them close range, landing on them tackling them etc. I hear curse's are good at neuting and can shield tank really well for a recon
Null sec combat meta is based around Kite, outranging and outmanoeuvring your opponent. So outmanoeuvre them. Your not going to get an I win ship to kill T3's, we WHers learnt this and utilize other tactics to deal with them effectively, (ewar, damps, neuts)
Lets also not forget that Rails are super strong right now
So Much Space
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Bl1SkR1N
Euphoria Released Triumvirate.
47
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Posted - 2014.11.11 19:18:06 -
[44] - Quote
Faren Shalni wrote:Bl1SkR1N wrote:Faren Shalni wrote:Any ship in the game is OP when you bring 500 of the things (ok exaggerated but you get the Idea)
Harpies, Eagles, Navpoc's, Drake's, Caracal's, Munnin's, Ishtars(even more op than T3) are all op in their own way when you have loads of them until you use a counter. Except that there is no counter to them...unless you suggest hostile geddon fleet should be hunting them around with bunch of nano geddons. They outperform even napocs. Now this is in terms of fleet fights ofcourse or fighting them close range, landing on them tackling them etc. I hear curse's are good at neuting and can shield tank really well for a recon Null sec combat meta is based around Kite, outranging and outmanoeuvring your opponent. So outmanoeuvre them. Your not going to get an I win ship to kill T3's, we WHers learnt this and utilize other tactics to deal with them effectively, (ewar, damps, neuts) Lets also not forget that Rails are super strong right now
Nope, thats not how nullsec warfare works :) I know that you, WH dudes, use those tactics a lot, but those fights are very different. With fights of 400 guys on grid you can't do stuff like tackle down enemy fleet. Ofcourse they can be killed by blobbing, bringing more tengus or caps...but that's back to unbalanced question. |
Soldarius
Deadman W0nderland The 99 Percent
876
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Posted - 2014.11.11 19:37:58 -
[45] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:The reason T3s are utterly overpowered is because they have ridiculous stat values. It has little to do with their flexibility, in fact most subsystems rarely get used if at all by people who know what they're doing. Those subsystems may be overpowered but not AS overpowered as some of the others.
A strategic cruiser can have small end of cruiser signature radius, agility, and max velocity while having battlecruiser slot and weapons layout, capacitor, and hit points. This alone is way too much, but then on top of that they get higher than tech 2 resistances and weapon damage bonuses that allow their overall DPS to beat even battlecruisers. Their effective hit points go up to the upper end of battleship hit points, often beating Abaddons and Rokhs in overall EHP.
This is absolutely true. Nerf their resists and PG. Make them cruisers, not HACs with BS EHP. They are better HACs than HACs, Ishtar excepted, because Ishtar OP. Something about BS weapons on a cruiser, and a full rack of utility high slots, full rack of shield tank, and a full rack of dps mods n the lows+ DC.
"Remember remember the 4th of November!"
Phoebe. Coming soon to Eve Online.
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Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
1897
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Posted - 2014.11.11 21:16:10 -
[46] - Quote
Rroff wrote:even an eagle in that role has over 100K EHP and slightly better damage projection. If an Eagle has better damage projection than a Tengu, then you've done something very wrong with the Tengu.
Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance)
"What if [climate change is] a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing?" -comic on Greenmonk
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YpsMaI
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2014.11.20 12:44:02 -
[47] - Quote
Nerf tengu.
Necromancer |
Daide Vondrichnov
SnaiLs aNd FroGs Triumvirate.
4
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Posted - 2014.11.20 14:47:10 -
[48] - Quote
Nerf defensive subs and we go. |
Bl1SkR1N
Euphoria Released Triumvirate.
49
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Posted - 2014.11.20 23:50:52 -
[49] - Quote
Daide Vondrichnov wrote:Nerf defensive subs and we go. would probably sufficie yeah... |
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