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St Dragon
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2006.08.25 22:33:00 -
[31]
lol did a industrial get past your gate camp. 
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"Kill one man, and you are a murderer. Kill millions of men, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god."
-- Jean Rostand |
Guillame Herschel
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.08.25 22:36:00 -
[32]
 Originally by: Paddlefoot Aeon
All instas mean is that someone, at some pointm has more time or more ISK than you.
You can say the same thing about skill points.
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Guillame Herschel
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.08.25 22:47:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Jerick Ludhowe
Um... I highly suggest re-reading the quoted definition of the term exploit. Skills do exactly what they were designed to do, bookmarks are being abused in a way that was not originally intended by ccp.
CCP tells new players how to make bookmarks and that it's a great idea to use them, right on this page of the official Player Guide, here on this very site.
Originally by: EVE Player Guide
Setting Bookmarks
This is what separates the advanced miners from the novices. A novice miner will bookmark the position of a good asteroid, and when returning later will spend time ap proaching it from 15km away, where his or her warp cuts out. An advanced miner will bookmark a position 15km beyond the asteroid in a line from the station that they are based out of, and thus when warping to '15km to bookmark' will appear right on top of the chosen asteroid and be able to mine immediately.
ò In order to set your bookmarks, first set a bookmark on an asteroid that is roughly in the position that you wish to mine from. Ensure that you don't have any big asteroids between it and the station that you're working out of, since it may interfere with your incoming path.
ò Warp out to the station, and back to within 15km of the bookmark. Set your camera behind your ship on the way in; it may be easier this way. Now double click your speed control (setting you to max velocity), and continue for 30km. Stop your ship and add a bookmark. Label it something sensible - like including a short identifier for the system, the belt, and the number of interesting asteroids in close proximity to the warp in point.
ò For the first few, you'll want to test them by warping back to the station, then back to the bookmark to check that they are ok. Once you've done half a dozen then you'll be confident with this process.
ò You may also wish to set a bookmark 8km beyond the station in a line from the belt. This will allow you to warp to a point where you can dock immediately instead of having to ap proach the docking perimeter. It is not strictly necessary, very useful.
ò Another quick note here: when belts are in a similar direction from the station, a single station bookmark can work for more than one belt.
(emphasis added by me to drive the point home like a nail)
Now, the only question that remains is, will you post a retraction, or will you argue that because the official Player Guide talks about belts and stations, that means EVE never intended players to use bookmarks with gates in the same way?
I await your answer eagerly.
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Zwap Latte
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Posted - 2006.08.25 23:02:00 -
[34]
If instas are an exploit, then gate camping is an exploit as well. And a big one at that.
You deliberately go sit around a point where people HAVE to go to travel from a certain system to another, just to kill them and take their belongings. That's abusing the game mechanics, and in a much larger way than setting a bloody BM in a way that is explained in the official tut.
Some people seriously need to think twice before starting to cry if something doesn't fit in their shop perfectly. It's a game, if you don't like, play something else. If you want something that is made by your standards, MAKE IT YOURSELF.
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Kaell Meynn
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Posted - 2006.08.25 23:41:00 -
[35]
Umm, how is a gatecamp similar to an insta? Some people are quite, (tries not to flame)...
Here's it simple for those who are slow... 'exploits' are using game mechanics in a way not intended to gain an unfair advandage, instas classify as this (at least originally, now that everyone uses them and CCP endorses them, they may have changed to now be an inteded mechanic), jetcan mining classifies as this (again, at least originally), shooting someone at a gate doesnt, training skills doesnt, using leadership doesnt, these have always been intended things. 'Exploits' (with a capital E) are the things which fit the defenition 'exploit' (lower case e) and the GMs declare are 'Exploits' (capital E again).
CCP decides what an 'Exploit' is. Truth decides what an 'exploit' is.
Summary, the following were originally 'exploits':
Jetcan mining
Instas
Lagbombs
Login traps
Packet floods
Removing yourself from local
the following were originally 'Exploits':
Lagbombs
Packet floods
Removing yourself from local
the following were never either 'exploits' or 'Exploits':
training skills (my god are you stupid??)
shooting someone at a gate (see above)
leading people in battle (you guys are making me sad for mankind here)
.K
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Retropsnart Eht
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Posted - 2006.08.25 23:53:00 -
[36]
Have you ever tried moving an industrial more than 10 jumps multiple times? Recently I made a hauling run 14 jumps, and it took about 12 trips just one way. That's 12 systems I have to go through twice on one run. I checked the time, and without instas, It would take approximately 19 hours to complete the run with a fully expanded industrial.
I think I'll keep my instas...
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Kaell Meynn
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Posted - 2006.08.26 00:08:00 -
[37]
Have you ever tried moving a freighter from 0.0 to Jita without <exploit deleted> to teleport there instantly? It takes forever even with instas. Does that mean <exploit deleted> should be allowed?
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Gretek Lal
Minmatar
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2006.08.26 00:33:00 -
[38]
I consider instas to be an exploit, and wish they were removed from the game.
I have used them in the past, and have found them to be more trouble than they are worth. They take too long to copy, and once I leave a particular corp the instas I obtained as a member of that corp are useless, because I always move to a different part of space. Plus I don't venture into lo-sec or 0.0 space unless I'm part of a corp that lives there.
Remove instas or don't remove them. I don't feel strongly about them. I choose not to use the ones I have.
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Gretek Lal
Minmatar
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2006.08.26 00:34:00 -
[39]
When I have to travel long distances through Empire, I just use autopilot and go get a beer from the refrigerator. Autopilot is my good friend.
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Tellenta
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Posted - 2006.08.26 01:48:00 -
[40]
I believe endorsing instas was CCP's way of avoiding the outcries for shorter travel times... other than that this just sounds like a WCS whine. even with instas I can be wtfpwned on the other side of the gate... and I have been so color me confused about this debate
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ChanibintLiet
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Posted - 2006.08.26 03:38:00 -
[41]
the way I see it is a bookmark is a bookmark is a bookark. there is no differance in someone bookmarking the location of a loot can or favorate mining spot. You can do a basic Bookmark and warp to about 15k from the target location or you can Bookmark a spot over there somewhere that will let you warp alot closer to the target location. So what if the location is a stargate or space station? All it does is let a person go from point A to point B in a maner that lest them make the best use of their time. So what if someone got past your gate camp using a bookmark that let them jump on contact. You still had a window of opertunity where you could have attacked them but you either didn't have the skills or wern't on your toes enough to catch them. That dosn't make a bookmark an exploit. Not unless you think it gives the guy in an unarmed hauler an unfair advantage over the guy in the Battleship waiting to kill him? if so then you probily don't see the overwelming advantage the Battleship already has against the unarmed hauler.
The is the little issue of people having entre regions of space bookmarked. I've got one set consisting of over 500 bookmarks and thats just one Region. I know people who have several sets of these regional Bookmarks. People have been saying lately that all those bookmarks cause lag. How? How are having a large number of Bookmarks any differant than having a ton of junk loot in your hanger? I know that there are many people who hord the junk loot so they can refine it once they have enough. Item for item I don't really see a differance in the amound of server load that a bunch of bookmarks take up and the space a bunch of junk mods take up. In the time I have been playng, I haven't seen any more people using Bookmarks to travel then i did when I started. i have seen several records broken for the number of people logged in at one time or in one place at the same time. I've seen several major upgrades in the client and server hardware as well as a few minor patches in between.
I really dont' think the bookmarks or the people using them are the problem. More like a symthom of or some other problem somewhere else. I really can't see anyone playing this game with out the ability to make and use bookmarks. mission runners us them re clean up loot cans, miners us them to get into position to mine. And people use them to travel.
I don't know what the real problem is but i'm sure getting rid of Bookmarks isnt going to fix it.
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Karoth Tyu
FATAL REVELATIONS
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Posted - 2006.08.26 03:53:00 -
[42]
Ahh, I love insta threads. All you have to do is say "Hi, I (hate or use) instas." And there'll be like 10 pages of flames.
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Sergeant Spot
Black Eclipse Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.08.26 04:19:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Sergeant Spot on 26/08/2006 04:19:45
Originally by: Adoro
Edited by: Adoro on 25/08/2006 19:22:48
Some dude in another thread sated:
What is an exploit?
The common definition of an exploit is ôto use the game mechanics in such a way as they were not intended for the purpose of gaining an unfair advantage over other players.ö Due to the ever-changing dynamics involved with maintaining a virtual, persistent world, it can sometimes be difficult or confusing to determine what might be considered an exploit.
Do I hear bookmarks?  Isnt that the exact explenation of insta bookmark?
A while back, I made it a point to point out the raw stupidity of folks who tried to claim that Ore Theft was not theft. They too used selective reading.
While BMs were an unintended feature, they were quickly deemed by CCP to not constitute "unfair advantage", in spite of the unending whining.
To top it off, CCP own Player guide TELLS new players how to make and use Instas.
As for BMs themselves, I'm looking forward to the feature that will replace them that will make many (not all) in the anti BM crowd whine even more (The folks who hate BMs because they want more easy ganks are going to have a miserable time the day CCP gets rid of BMs....)
Be careful what you wish for......
*snip*
This type of comment has no place in a signature, please remain courteous - Pirlouit
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Michiyo Daishi
Royal Knights of Khanid
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Posted - 2006.08.26 04:39:00 -
[44]
good god... someone stop the flames already. Its getting tediously annoying already.
Instas are here to stay until CCP themselves say its out. Live with it.
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Sentinel Eeex
Caldari
Two Brothers Mining Corp.
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.08.26 05:48:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Adoro
insta = exploit. It gives you an advantage other players might not have, most do...but not all...
Mothership/Vagabond/BCS2/LVL4_agent/R&D_agent/... = exploit. It gives you an advantage other players might not have, most do...but not all...
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LUGAL MOP'N'GLO
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Posted - 2006.08.26 06:32:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Sentinel Eeex
Originally by: Adoro
insta = exploit. It gives you an advantage other players might not have, most do...but not all...
Mothership/Vagabond/BCS2/LVL4_agent/R&D_agent/... = exploit. It gives you an advantage other players might not have, most do...but not all...
pwnt?
/me nods head and smuckers lips
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Lurtz
Caldari
Gunrunners and Gamblers
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Posted - 2006.08.26 17:51:00 -
[47]
Originally by: lofty29
Originally by: LUGAL MOP'N'GLO
Due to the ever-changing dynamics involved with maintaining a virtual, persistent world, it can sometimes be difficult or confusing to determine what might be considered an exploit.
...and that's why instas are NOT 'exploits'. Of course, if you want to ban EVE go for it.
I wont be getting a ban then 
Nor I.
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Lurtz
Caldari
Gunrunners and Gamblers
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Posted - 2006.08.26 17:55:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Retropsnart Eht
Have you ever tried moving an industrial more than 10 jumps multiple times? Recently I made a hauling run 14 jumps, and it took about 12 trips just one way. That's 12 systems I have to go through twice on one run. I checked the time, and without instas, It would take approximately 19 hours to complete the run with a fully expanded industrial.
I think I'll keep my instas...
use a freighter. still slow, but without multiple trips. Yes, I haul. I have played over 3 years, and have never made, bought, or in any way used an insta BM. Cargo ships are supposed to be slow. The Galaxy is supposed to be big. You should not go from 1 side to the other in minutes.
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Majin82
Caldari
Sammael's Legion
Arkhangelos Command
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Posted - 2006.08.26 18:30:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Adoro
Originally by: Aralin
Cool, finally a thread about instas, I'm sure we can all talk this out and come to a consensus now that it up for discussion...
lol...well its not the first topic no...but couldnt be arsed to respond in the other topics...
insta = exploit. It gives you an advantage other players might not have, most do...but not all...
The only advantage a good set of bookmarks can give you is being able to avoide being sniped or attacked by a gate camper. Or to be able to travil quicker which in turn can help you with transporting or just general travil.
I don't get why people feel bookmarks are wrong.
As someone said, you have to work or pay to get them.
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Sammael's Legion
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Ellandrian D'Amerathe
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Posted - 2006.08.26 18:47:00 -
[50]
The same logic used here to say BMs are an exploit also say that gate sniping is an exploit because the game mechanics (sentry guns) in place at .1 - .4 gates are intended to keep those gates safe. The sniper is exploiting the range limitations of the sentry guns to allow himself to fit a pure ranged DPS rig and gain an unfair advantage over other players.
(The above, tongue in cheek, I have no issue with either instas or snipers, I just love to argue)
I do have to ask the following question of those who snipe at gates...
Do you always warp in at 15KM to the gate then turn around and slowboat to a proper sniper position when setting up or do you use an insta to the sniper spot? Every time? Really?
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lofty29
Gallente
Tolarri Conglomerate
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Posted - 2006.08.26 19:00:00 -
[51]
Originally by: LUGAL MOP'N'GLO
Originally by: lofty29
Originally by: LUGAL MOP'N'GLO
Due to the ever-changing dynamics involved with maintaining a virtual, persistent world, it can sometimes be difficult or confusing to determine what might be considered an exploit.
...and that's why instas are NOT 'exploits'. Of course, if you want to ban EVE go for it.
I wont be getting a ban then
No lofty, after you warp from your moon or whatever in Oursalert after killing some poor n00b you will still be able to use your instas to the station and SS's to avoid any fair fights. I wouldn't worry about it. I'll roll eyes at you all day long but that doesn't help does it...
Or maybe it does. 
Uhm. I dont have Instas to the oursu stations (any of them) and the only 'safespot' I have is where I commit my crimes. 
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Originally by: inSpirAcy
Just like a tumour, the Brutix grows on you.
Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty - Cortes |
Gamer4liff
Caldari
Metalworks
THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY
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Posted - 2006.08.26 19:11:00 -
[52]
O ffs, this has been discussed to death, no it's not an exploit, yes it provides an unfair advantage, yes CCP knows this, and yes it will probably be changed in the future.
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