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Jace Sarice
The Vendunari
End of Life
19982
   |
Posted - 2014.11.15 03:23:26 -
[61] - Quote
Regardless of the technicalities, the important part of this topic is the cultural weight that goes along with being Caldari. Whether someone is a full citizen, an honorary citizen, or an immigrant resident - there are expectations if you are going to live in the State outside of the hubs like Jita. |
Jvpiter
Jovelike
101
|
Posted - 2014.11.15 04:12:40 -
[62] - Quote
And there is no means to enforce these expectations and standards, short of monitoring a person around the clock and recording and analyzing their every thought.
Diversity and rebellion will find a home in any culture, and isn't absent even in seemingly most culturally homogenous areas of The State.
Even within Rome there were those who fancied themselves as Greek. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security
Imperial Outlaws.
4145
|
Posted - 2014.11.15 06:18:47 -
[63] - Quote
You don't enforce a culture from the top down, Jvpiter. You enforce it from the bottom up - everyone knows that.
"You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions."
"Only a killer would know that..."
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Tyrel Toov
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
65
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Posted - 2014.11.15 07:42:39 -
[64] - Quote
Jvpiter wrote:And there is no means to enforce these expectations and standards, short of monitoring a person around the clock and recording and analyzing their every thought.
Diversity and rebellion will find a home in any culture, and isn't absent even in seemingly most culturally homogenous areas of The State.
Even within Rome there were those who fancied themselves as Greek.
Where is Rome, and what is a Greek? |
Jvpiter
Jovelike
103
|
Posted - 2014.11.15 13:26:18 -
[65] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:You don't enforce a culture from the top down, Jvpiter. You enforce it from the bottom up - everyone knows that.
Indeed. The strongest sense of cultural solidarity comes out of community and institutions like education and public service.
In spite of a strong cultural bond amongst members of a population, there are those who would be exceptions and will reject the culture partially or outright.
You cannot enforce a culture, period. Perhaps most will conform, but people are too diverse.
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Jvpiter
Jovelike
103
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Posted - 2014.11.15 13:32:10 -
[66] - Quote
Tyrel Toov wrote:Where is Rome, and what is a Greek?
New Eden, such as it is named, is not the first Eden. Or else, why would it be "new"?
From what little I understand, the cultures I mention are nonexistent here, but the dichotomy between them should be a very familiar theme based on what we observe in this corner of the universe.
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Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
1552
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Posted - 2014.11.15 13:39:11 -
[67] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:You don't enforce a culture from the top down, Jvpiter. You enforce it from the bottom up - everyone knows that.
The Amarrian Theocracy would go against that notion, it's very much a trickle down of power and influence from a single revered figure. The few keep the majority in line using the sway of religion, it's sustained through the masses by illusion and fear, but it's constant pressure from their superiors that revitalise the hold such rhetoric has.
When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
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Vizage
Capital Allied Industrial Distribution
Evictus.
78
|
Posted - 2014.11.15 20:43:36 -
[68] - Quote
Caellach Marellus wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:You don't enforce a culture from the top down, Jvpiter. You enforce it from the bottom up - everyone knows that. The Amarrian Theocracy would go against that notion, it's very much a trickle down of power and influence from a single revered figure. The few keep the majority in line using the sway of religion, it's sustained through the masses by illusion and fear, but it's constant pressure from their superiors that revitalise the hold such rhetoric has.
Except the culture doesn't stem from the Empress, it stems from the Theology which requires the tacit approval/belief of the people before it can work it's way up.
A figurehead isn't the font of the culture it exists because of it.
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Saiden Dia
The Vendunari
End of Life
959
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Posted - 2014.11.15 20:45:52 -
[69] - Quote
Caellach Marellus wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:You don't enforce a culture from the top down, Jvpiter. You enforce it from the bottom up - everyone knows that. The Amarrian Theocracy would go against that notion, it's very much a trickle down of power and influence from a single revered figure. The few keep the majority in line using the sway of religion, it's sustained through the masses by illusion and fear, but it's constant pressure from their superiors that revitalise the hold such rhetoric has.
When you say that it is "sustained through the masses" you are essentially agreeing with the notion that it is enforced from the bottom up. It is not created that way, orchestrated that way, but it is certainly enforced that way. |
Jvpiter
Jovelike
108
|
Posted - 2014.11.15 23:16:38 -
[70] - Quote
Dynamic, living systems are not just one-dimensional caricatures.
Any theocracy has both bottom-up enforcement, because belief permeates the culture and people perpetuate and strengthen these beliefs, and top-down enforcement through some form of totalitarian or authoritarian governing body that will quash dissent and silence rebellion.
Amarrian theology is not simply cultural, which would account for bottom-up conformance.
Religion prescribes how the the Imperial State itself will operate, affecting top-down conformance in a bureaucratic and military sense.
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Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
1553
|
Posted - 2014.11.15 23:16:59 -
[71] - Quote
Saiden Dia wrote:Caellach Marellus wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:You don't enforce a culture from the top down, Jvpiter. You enforce it from the bottom up - everyone knows that. The Amarrian Theocracy would go against that notion, it's very much a trickle down of power and influence from a single revered figure. The few keep the majority in line using the sway of religion, it's sustained through the masses by illusion and fear, but it's constant pressure from their superiors that revitalise the hold such rhetoric has. When you say that it is "sustained through the masses" you are essentially agreeing with the notion that it is enforced from the bottom up. It is not created that way, orchestrated that way, but it is certainly enforced that way.
No, sustained, not enforced. There's a difference.
If they don't have the dogma coming down from above, there's nothing there. The illusion and fear that sustains the masses comes from that dogma.
It's trickle down, but when it hits base level, so long as it's constantly fed in, it self sustains. Remove the source and the whole system collapses, the bottom level however is too big to fail.
When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
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Vizage
Capital Allied Industrial Distribution
Evictus.
79
|
Posted - 2014.11.16 00:26:33 -
[72] - Quote
Jvpiter wrote:
Dynamic, living systems are not just one-dimensional caricatures.
Any theocracy has both bottom-up enforcement, because belief permeates the culture and people perpetuate and strengthen these beliefs, and top-down enforcement through some form of totalitarian or authoritarian governing body that will quash dissent and silence rebellion.
Amarrian theology is not simply cultural, which would account for bottom-up conformance.
Religion prescribes how the the Imperial State itself will operate, affecting top-down conformance in a bureaucratic and military sense.
Calling a top-down or bottom-up system a "one dimensional Charicature" is straw man at the best of times. These systems are incredibly complex and adapting models that are defined by their source. That being said a Theocracy is inherently bottom-up as all power stems from the beliefs of the people.
One only needs to ask a simple question to understand where the Theocracy draws is power.
"Would the Amarr empire continue to function if the population of the empire woke up tomorrow and no longer held their religious beliefs? "
The answer is obviously no. The legitimacy of the government and leadership would immediately collapse if people no longer believed in the divine right of the Empress and the Amarr in government.
Top-down systems of government do not require this kind of tacit approval and are usually dictatorial in nature. This is usually indicative of police-states and the like, that can actively enforce a stable sovereignty with or without the approval of those whom they rule. |
Jvpiter
Jovelike
273
|
Posted - 2014.11.16 02:52:10 -
[73] - Quote
Vizage,
I find your assessment to be fair. Excellent point.
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Vizage
Capital Allied Industrial Distribution
Evictus.
81
|
Posted - 2014.11.16 02:55:23 -
[74] - Quote
Jvpiter wrote:
Vizage,
I find your assessment to be fair. Excellent point.
By the Maker, you just earned so much respect from me. This place needs more people like you.
Sincerely
-K
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Kale Silence
Sebietar Scavenging and Hacking
73
|
Posted - 2014.11.19 20:11:24 -
[75] - Quote
Quote: Series of Comments regarding citizens of the State and whatever.
Wow.  All this fuss over little ol' me?
Boys! Calm down and make a line!  I prefer to be asked in person.
Also, I'm not Caldari. Just sayin'.
"Love me or hate me, but money don't judge me. I don't care about your opinion, unless you intend to pay me. Then I care."
- Anonymous
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Tyrel Toov
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
78
|
Posted - 2014.11.19 22:43:00 -
[76] - Quote
Kale Silence wrote:Quote: Series of Comments regarding citizens of the State and whatever. Wow. All this fuss over little ol' me? Boys! Calm down and make a line! I prefer to be asked in person. Also, I'm not Caldari. Just sayin'.
Who are you and why do we care if you're Caldari or not? |
Utremi Fasolasi
La Dolce Vita
437
|
Posted - 2014.11.20 04:20:10 -
[77] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:You don't enforce a culture from the top down, Jvpiter. You enforce it from the bottom up - everyone knows that.
I'm no enforcer of Caldari culture but I've done my share of embracing it occasionally from the bottom up, if you get my drift. And occasionally top down too, us Gallente are versatile.
Roleplaying for someone with a kink for Caldari protocol can be a bit mentally exhausting though.. |
Elmund Egivand
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
211
|
Posted - 2014.11.20 05:50:52 -
[78] - Quote
Utremi Fasolasi wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:You don't enforce a culture from the top down, Jvpiter. You enforce it from the bottom up - everyone knows that. I'm no enforcer of Caldari culture but I've done my share of embracing it occasionally from the bottom up, if you get my drift. And occasionally top down too, us Gallente are versatile. Roleplaying for someone with a kink for Caldari protocol can be a bit mentally exhausting though..
Lots and lots of paperwork. And also a queue number. And a number of lawyers.
- Would very much love to cobble anyone who insinuates that I am a loyalist in the head with a 125mm calibre Fusion round.
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Tyrel Toov
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
80
|
Posted - 2014.11.20 05:54:29 -
[79] - Quote
Elmund Egivand wrote:Utremi Fasolasi wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:You don't enforce a culture from the top down, Jvpiter. You enforce it from the bottom up - everyone knows that. I'm no enforcer of Caldari culture but I've done my share of embracing it occasionally from the bottom up, if you get my drift. And occasionally top down too, us Gallente are versatile. Roleplaying for someone with a kink for Caldari protocol can be a bit mentally exhausting though.. Lots and lots of paperwork. And also a queue number. And a number of lawyers.
and done in an emotionless, overly formal, manner. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security
Imperial Outlaws.
4186
|
Posted - 2014.11.20 06:58:06 -
[80] - Quote
Tyrel Toov wrote:Elmund Egivand wrote:Utremi Fasolasi wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:You don't enforce a culture from the top down, Jvpiter. You enforce it from the bottom up - everyone knows that. I'm no enforcer of Caldari culture but I've done my share of embracing it occasionally from the bottom up, if you get my drift. And occasionally top down too, us Gallente are versatile. Roleplaying for someone with a kink for Caldari protocol can be a bit mentally exhausting though.. Lots and lots of paperwork. And also a queue number. And a number of lawyers. and done in an emotionless, overly formal, manner.
You need to go watch "know your Caldari - an FDU primer" as it seems you have no idea. The Deteis do a reasonable job of pretending to be emotionless but us Civire don't even try.
You know, speaking as an actual enforcer of Caldari culture and all.
"You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions."
"Only a killer would know that..."
|
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
1426
|
Posted - 2014.11.20 11:41:31 -
[81] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
You know, speaking as an actual enforcer of Caldari culture and all, I like to think I penetrated a fair selection of "targets" in Gallente space.
This is great, Tuulinen-haan!! I have penetrated a selection of targets in Gallente space as well.
We definitely should do it together someday! |
Wendrika Hydreiga
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
110
|
Posted - 2014.11.20 16:07:32 -
[82] - Quote
Diana Kim wrote:
This is great, Tuulinen-haan!! I have penetrated a selection of targets in Gallente space as well.
We definitely should do it together someday!
Miss Kim! How could you? Wanting to penetrate Gallentean armor with bullets, with or without Mister Tuulinen, is wrong and terrible!
You should just burninate them with explosions so that only space dust remains! Why? Because the Federation must be destroyed!
Also, I'm well aware of what Mister Tuulinen actually meant, and that's equally terrible! He just lost 0.2 standing with me because of that! |
Kale Silence
Sebietar Scavenging and Hacking
73
|
Posted - 2014.11.20 18:56:39 -
[83] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote: You know, speaking as an actual enforcer of Caldari culture and all, I like to think I penetrated a fair selection of "targets" in Gallente space.
Oh you naughty boy!
"Love me or hate me, but money don't judge me. I don't care about your opinion, unless you intend to pay me. Then I care."
- Anonymous
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Pieter Tuulinen
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security
Imperial Outlaws.
4190
|
Posted - 2014.11.21 06:10:21 -
[84] - Quote
Kale Silence wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote: You know, speaking as an actual enforcer of Caldari culture and all, I like to think I penetrated a fair selection of "targets" in Gallente space. Oh you naughty boy!
Aww, I'm sorry. Was it only funny when the Gallentean said it?
"You let one of them go, but that's nothing new is it? Every now and then a little victim is allowed to escape; because she smiled, because he's got freckles, because they begged. And that's how you live with yourself. That's how you slaughter millions."
"Only a killer would know that..."
|
Elmund Egivand
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
213
|
Posted - 2014.11.21 07:10:56 -
[85] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Kale Silence wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote: You know, speaking as an actual enforcer of Caldari culture and all, I like to think I penetrated a fair selection of "targets" in Gallente space. Oh you naughty boy! Aww, I'm sorry. Was it only funny when the Gallentean said it?
Actually, it's alot less funny when the Gallentean said it. Mostly because we already expected it. Humour has to subvert expectations.
- Would very much love to cobble anyone who insinuates that I am a loyalist in the head with a 125mm calibre Fusion round.
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Darsena Izuma
Pan Galactic Gargle Blasters
Ocularis Inferno
15
|
Posted - 2014.12.08 17:30:23 -
[86] - Quote
Diana Kim wrote:Haven't you watched news for that period of time, when gallenteans were defacing Caldari monuments with losungs "EXTERMINATE ALL CALDARI"?!...
Normal person response to seeing one group preach the extermination of another: "It is wrong for one group to preach the extermination of another group. I should refrain from/condemn this."
Kim response: "It is wrong for one group to preach the extermination of another. THUS, I WILL EXTERMINATE EVERYONE ASSOCIATED WITH THEM!"
Fedo are not what they seem to be.-á Welcome to Night Vale.
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