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Cailais
Amarr
THE SEFRIM INSTITUTE
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Posted - 2006.08.30 19:29:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Cailais on 30/08/2006 19:29:25
This OP is one of the best ideas I have seen so far. Its simple, and elegant, provides a player based economy (not NPC please) for starmaps which is recuring as they degrade (perhaps through use rather than over time???).
I prefer a starmap that is system based, rather than any larger. And in terms of copies perhaps only as 'BPCs' rather than infinite BPOs.
Perhaps this could be combined with corporation storage of starmaps (iirc there was another popular post for this for insta bms)? This would allow a corporation to easily manage it portfolio of current starmaps, for ease of distribution to new pilots.
As for encouraging a conversion would it be possible for current bm's around gates to be slowly off set? This would allow time for current insta bm users to adapt, and a starmap base to become established.
Claims of 'grind' are unfounded as we all effectively 'grind' for isk in one way or another and this is simply another way of doing so.
I realise the dev team rarely post on here but at least a nod to say this has been seen before it slips down the pack?
/signed
www.sefrim.com
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Cailais
Amarr
THE SEFRIM INSTITUTE
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Posted - 2006.08.30 20:38:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Cailais on 30/08/2006 20:38:39
Edited by: Cailais on 30/08/2006 20:38:29
 Quote:
R
The idea is horribly complex, and simply isn't going to be done in any reasonable timeframe. We need an answer NOW - one CCP can do in a week. 0km warp and bubbles which work in Empire for war targets are that answer.
THEN, and only then, is your idea worth further discussion. But it's an overly complex system which does not address the basic issues of making it too easy to insta everywhere, while adding an ongoing undesired grind and allowing insta-AFK warping.
//Maya
I disagree - we hardly need a half baked answer now, when the problem was identified over a year ago. I for one would rather wait for a good solution in time, than a poor one to patch up the current system.
An alternative to the starmap for insta exchange is that starmaps are 'tied' to station services. You don't remove them but prior to departure you 'upload' your route providing you with a 0km warp from point A to point B. Deviate from that preprogrammed course and your 0km option is lost and you are back to 15km. This would enable fast 'pre-planned' travel, but not so useful in the more dynamic environment of warfare, where by default, you are adapting on the fly. This would be a incentive to control a POS in a 0.0 region as without access to one your ability to adapt is severely constrained. removing bms around stations would therefore create a natural combat zone as pilots head to a station to upload their next 'pre-planned' route.
www.sefrim.com
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Cailais
Amarr
THE SEFRIM INSTITUTE
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Posted - 2006.09.08 16:16:00 -
[3]
To start with, lets look at what instas ((or starmaps)) do for you as a player:
- You become [close to] invulnerable
- Your travel time decreases significantly
Both are very good for you as a player, but anything close to invulnerability will in the end ruin a game. - Oveur (my inclusion)
Granted a degrading starmap adds an element of reduced invulnerability as, an old star map, is inherently less safe than a up to date one.
Starmaps are one option of replacing Bookmarks but they do not effectively resolve the question posted a year ago. I like the flavour of the ideea, and I am all for new itms to 'build/research/discover' and could see it implemented on top of another solution but in basic terms instas =
 FAST & SAFE travel - with no compensating disadvantage other than a small investment in A. Time or B. ISK.
I would argue that we should have a solution that is reflected like so:
FAST & LESS SAFE or, as an alternate option
SLOW & SAFER
The pilot picks which touse depending upon his circumstance and need.
www.sefrim.com
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Cailais
Amarr
THE SEFRIM INSTITUTE
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Posted - 2006.09.20 20:42:00 -
[4]
Or er...you could just have a 0km warp option and er..no Db issue???
Not that I support that line of thought but there you go..
C.
www.sefrim.com
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Cailais
Amarr
THE SEFRIM INSTITUTE
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Posted - 2006.10.04 00:17:00 -
[5]
I think most people have read this now and commented if they're going to Aliniel.
www.sefrim.com - sig design - eve mail for details
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Cailais
Amarr
THE SEFRIM INSTITUTE
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Posted - 2006.10.05 21:59:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Taedrin
Originally by: Cailais
I think most people have read this now and commented if they're going to Aliniel.
The funny thing is everytime this gets bumped, more people come in and say they like the idea...
Yeah, fine its a nice idea. Not perfect but popular with those who like to 'make stuff' and those that want '0km warps' without restriction (pretty much invulnerable everywhere then).
I like it as a rough concept - I just don't agree people should just 'bump' an idea without adding real value: otherwise why shouldnt I 'bump' my ideas until I get enough "I likes" and then hold up a placard saying - here you go devs everyone likes it.
And the end of it all 'starmaps' are basically summed up as:
Player produced item that produces 0km warp to gate. A more condensed version of the insta BM - but that doesn't solve the fundamental issue:
"Today there are no drawbacks to having instabookmarks, the drawback is not having any instabookmarks" - Oveur.
C.
www.sefrim.com - sig design - eve mail for details
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Cailais
Amarr
THE SEFRIM INSTITUTE
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Posted - 2006.10.06 08:08:00 -
[7]
What Oveur was trying to say is that instabookmarks give you fast, and nearly invulnerable travel. He felt (and I agree) that this was contary to the spirit of the game. Now, he also explained that he recognised there was a 'need' amongst players to travel fast, and sometimes safely and that instabook marks provided that. His point was though that there was no disadvantage to having that ability. In simple terms if a player wants to 'instajump' he sould sacrifice something else for it (and he's asked the community to suggest what that 'something' might be).
Now the 'starmap' idea reduces the pile of bookmarks (good thing), provides a new player driven industry (good thing), but still has the same effect as instabookmarks in terms of travel and safety (bad thing).
Aliniel believes the cost of purchasing/producing a starmap is sufficient to cover Oveur's "sacrifice/disadvantage" - and I disagree.
Why? Well effectively purchasing a starmap is getting you to 'pay' for insta travel. Now even assuming that the cost of starmaps is quite high (and much of the arguments posted here suggest they wouldn't be) due to their longevity the price you are paying per insta jump is really very very small. In fact those that produce their own in theory get it for free: exactly the same as insta bookmarks.
So what are we left with? Starmaps are a complex way of 'reinventing' the instabookmark. Sure its a interesting and possibly appealing way to reinvent the instabookmark - BUT it doesn't address the core issue.
In summary let it put it another way; If I said I had a solution to the instabook mark and it was this:
"Each insta jump you make costs 100ISK".
Would it get much support? I doubt it. Now if you can come up with a suitable disadvantage to using a starmap then I'll be really interested.
C.
www.sefrim.com - sig design - eve mail for details
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Cailais
Amarr
THE SEFRIM INSTITUTE
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Posted - 2006.10.06 14:33:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Cailais on 06/10/2006 14:34:24
With a concept like this its very difficult to judege 'how much' a star map might cost. Now if cost is a disadvantage to insta use, who - amongst the player base - suffers that disadvantage most? I would argue the 'noobie': He/she has less isk than everyone else. So if 0.0 space is 'expensive' to get into (you need the starmap to survive) it is likely to discourage the newer / poorer player from going there.
In a sense this makes your wealth and indication of your 'level' in EVE. High 'level players (with lots of isk) play in 0.0, because they can afford insta travel. Low 'level' players don't. But EVE isnt about "levels" is it?
Who suffers the least from this disadvantage? The rich - they can afford to pay for multiple starmaps without batting an eyelid. So the rich have the greatest ability to travel fast and safely. One might imagine the age old truism here - the rich get richer, while the poor: well they just get podded. 
Perhaps if having lots of 'starmaps' effected something else it could be a good system. Maybe lots of starmaps on your database reduces your targeting speed, restricts your mining capability, reduces your maximum cap, skill learning speed etc etc.
Which everway you look at it there should (I would argue) be a 'disadvantage' that is not purely based on cost and or time.
C.
www.sefrim.com - sig design - eve mail for details
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Cailais
Amarr
THE SEFRIM INSTITUTE
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Posted - 2006.10.06 15:32:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Cailais on 06/10/2006 15:32:34
"The starmaps idea was not created to solve the "invulnerability" problem (I have already mentioned this, btw). It was created to handle the other problems caused by bookmarks (which you have already mentioned - the sheer number and memory cost of bookmarks). The invulnerability problem would have to be solved seperately.... "
Wouldn't it make sense that if you're going to fix BM load (including BM Instas) you solve both issues at the same time??
Afterall the sheer number of BMs is created by what? - everyone having lots of instas per chance? The two issues are implicitly linked. (edit: hence the OP title 'a quality insta solution')
C.
www.sefrim.com - sig design - eve mail for details
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Cailais
Amarr
THE SEFRIM INSTITUTE
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Posted - 2006.10.13 22:09:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Cailais on 13/10/2006 22:11:08
Originally by: Vandervecken Smith
This was and is a great idea.
I think we'd all appreciate some mod attention, given the post count and discussion.
I shall endevour to post my next idea here and bump it at every opportunity. I'll choose something thats bound to get some discussion going, let me think - ah here's one:
Instas Bookmarks. Remove them - 15 km warp for all - no data base lag. Purely based on number of views, and total posts I think you'll find the favoured solution to all EVE's woes have been addressed by a Mr INNOMINATE NIGHTMARE. Check General if you've no idea whom Im talking about.
Stop bumping.
C.
www.sefrim.com - sig design - eve mail for details
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