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Aliniel Vitissun
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Posted - 2006.08.27 22:45:00 -
[1]
Moved from EVE General Discussion to Features and Ideas Forum - Jacques
Edited by: Aliniel Vitissun on 27/08/2006 22:59:53
The way I see it, the problem with instant-jump bookmarks is that they take up a lot of space, because each jump is individual. I've seen the purely skill-based solutions, I've seen the "warp-to 0km" option solutions. Here's my proposal for an intermediary, using existing skills and adding a single new item class.
New Item: Starmap (system name)
A starmap is a full system navigational database that allows a ship navigating that system to warp directly to any target given. It can be copied (Shift+Drag) and is incorporated by the Autopilot, which checks to see if the player currently possesses a starmap of the system when executing a warp.
Acquiring Starmaps: Starmaps are made by engaging in a prolonged, thorough scan of the system via use of the new "System Astronavigation Probe," launched from a Scan Probe Launcher. The scan takes approximately 10 minutes to complete (faster depending on Astrometrics and Surveying skills), and creates a new Starmap object of the system once complete. During the scan, the ship may not cloak nor leave the system.
Degrading Starmaps: Systems change over time due to gravitational perturbrations, and starmap accuracy degrades as well. The starmap's warp-to accuracy degrades at a rate of approximately 500 meters per month. This is easy to check, as the accuracy offset can be computed directly from the current date and the starmap's timestamp.
Advantages:
-This opens a new, persisting market for scout characters who would make accurate, up-to-date starmaps to sell, of which are clearly labeled with both system and date, and thus immune to Escrow scamming.
-The ability to warp to jump range is not simply a skill timesink any more than insta bookmarks are a timesink. They require personal effort to achieve.
-There's an incentive to automatically abandon use of the current bookmarks, because starmaps tie in to the Autopilot. Sooner or later someone's going to want to clean up their People and Places, and this should spontaneously reduce the number of bookmarks in existence.
-A single starmap subtitutes for an entire system's worth of bookmarks. In a two-gate system, this accounts for a 50% cut in object count associated with that system. It also does not need to store the coordinates of the mark, just the timestamp. This should ease data usage significantly.
Flame suit ON 
Edit: Added incentive line
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Auldare
S.A.S
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Posted - 2006.08.27 22:51:00 -
[2]
I actually like this idea 
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Major Stormer
Caldari
Demon Womb
Xelas Alliance
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Posted - 2006.08.27 22:53:00 -
[3]
signed! nice idea there :)
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0.01 ISK to the first mod that writes in my sig! :D
Pay cash value in cookies plskthx - Immy
Oh man thats gonna be a lot of cookies. |
Verus Potestas
Caldari
Fiat Mort
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Posted - 2006.08.27 22:57:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Verus Potestas on 27/08/2006 22:57:17
Not a bad idea at all
Hell, couldn't be worse than the current system.
edit: make them copyable like a BPO though... 
Also, make starmaps over a certain time (6 months?) old worthless.
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Sjoor
S.A.S
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Posted - 2006.08.27 22:58:00 -
[5]
Oh.
Good good,
/me likes
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Add warp to 0km option, delete all current bookmarks ingame, remove aggro reset on jump, increase aggro timer to 30 minutes, remove secure can concord flagging.
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Vandervecken Smith
Aerial Boundaries Inc.
Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.08.27 23:02:00 -
[6]
This is fantastic!
Cut down the need for BMs significantly.
/signed!
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Aliniel Vitissun
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Posted - 2006.08.27 23:02:00 -
[7]
 Originally by: Verus Potestas
Edited by: Verus Potestas on 27/08/2006 22:57:17
Also, make starmaps over a certain time (6 months?) old worthless.
Well, after 5 months, the inaccuracy will be 2500 km, which would make them unusable as instajumps, but still offer the capability to cut down a bit on that 15-km trip. Maybe increase it to 1 km per month?
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Aliniel Vitissun
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Posted - 2006.08.27 23:07:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Verus Potestas
Edited by: Verus Potestas on 27/08/2006 22:57:17
edit: make them copyable like a BPO though...
Quote:
Shift+Drag is currently proposed as the copy mechanism, though a new profession as map copier might be an idea.
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Crumplecorn
Gallente
Aerial Boundaries Inc.
Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.08.27 23:10:00 -
[9]
Cut out the autopilot integration. With that not only can you travel at instaing speeds while AFK, but you could pretty much AFK haul through gatecamps in 0.0.
Aside from that, is good .
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Aliniel Vitissun
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Posted - 2006.08.27 23:12:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Cut out the autopilot integration. With that not only can you travel at instaing speeds while AFK, but you could pretty much AFK haul through gatecamps in 0.0.
Aside from that, is good .
The autopilot integration was more or less included in order to offer an incentive for players to not use existing Bookmarks, since those don't degrade. Laziness is a property in every one of us, and this is an appeal to it in order to replace the existing system. If you have another suggested incentive, I'm quite open to hearing it.
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Sjoep enLai
Azure Horizon
Coalition Of Empires
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Posted - 2006.08.27 23:39:00 -
[11]
ooohh. very good. this deserves some CCP attention. Best idea to solve the bookie problems i've seen so far.
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Kael Brahe
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Posted - 2006.08.28 00:01:00 -
[12]
/signed
First idea that I've seen that solves a resource-intensive, exploitative (debated, not my opinion) use of game mechanics with some real mechanics. Now bookmarks only mark actual, useful locations in a system, as the name implies!
<The ideas expressed in this post do not reflect the beliefs, opinions, or other properties of 20th Legion Corporation.>
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Pairadice
Caldari
Paradise Venture
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Posted - 2006.08.28 00:21:00 -
[13]
Quote:
but you could pretty much AFK haul through gatecamps in 0.0.
Even with the new changes, would YOU risk afk hauling anything through 0.0 with any type of system in place? I think not.
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Reggie Stoneloader
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Posted - 2006.08.28 00:26:00 -
[14]
Gatecamps in 0.0 use interdictors and warp disruption bubbles. Autopilot won't get through that under any circumstances.
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Crumplecorn
Gallente
Aerial Boundaries Inc.
Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.08.28 00:48:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Aliniel Vitissun
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Cut out the autopilot integration. With that not only can you travel at instaing speeds while AFK, but you could pretty much AFK haul through gatecamps in 0.0.
Aside from that, is good .
The autopilot integration was more or less included in order to offer an incentive for players to not use existing Bookmarks, since those don't degrade. Laziness is a property in every one of us, and this is an appeal to it in order to replace the existing system. If you have another suggested incentive, I'm quite open to hearing it.
I can't think of another incentive, other than instas are bad for the server, so people might just decide to delete them for the greater good? Yeah, I think that's pretty unlikely too, but with the autopilot integration it lets you get around too fast too easily, and rather than trying to argue why this is bad for the game, I'll just point out that it would stop this idea from ever seeing the light of day, because you weren't originally supposed to be able to get around as fast as you can with instas while at the keyboard, let alone while AFKing.
Quote:
Even with the new changes, would YOU risk afk hauling anything through 0.0 with any type of system in place? I think not.
Yes, actually I would, I practically AFK through 0.0 anyway, all I have to do is hit the correct insta when I enter each system, if I do get stopped by either bubbles or tacklers, I'm dead anyway. I usually just watch TV or read a book, letting the sound of my ship jumping prompt me to look up and warp to an insta.
Quote:
Gatecamps in 0.0 use interdictors and warp disruption bubbles. Autopilot won't get through that under any circumstances.
No, but nothing will, so it's irrelevant. If you are AFKing and hit a bubble, you die. If you are at the keyboard and hit a bubble, you die.
Unlike some I'm in favor of being able to skip the 15km trundle and thus greatly speed up travelling. However, I think it should require some effort on your part.
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Aliniel Vitissun
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Posted - 2006.08.28 00:57:00 -
[16]
Very true, though now the effort can be traded, just as most anything in EvE can be traded. There's going to be quite the lively market in starmap trades now, so basically you're paying to have someone else do the work for you. I figured that was was a key feature of EvE, but as you say, most people with instas basically AFK through their jumps now. This does takes a more effort to maintain over time, but doesn't require you to be minimally at the keyboard.
At least this way, people who don't want others insta'ing through their system all the time can hunt down and kill the scouts while they're scanning the system. Block starmap-scanning for a month or so and nobody will have accurate maps of the place.
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Reggie Stoneloader
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Posted - 2006.08.28 04:22:00 -
[17]
I have nothing against using it with autopilot. Faster travel isn't bad by itself, especially if it's universally applied. It's the security of instas that harm the game. Better, more diverse ways to have a fight, that can't be completely countered by these starmaps, would be great. AFK travel should carry the risk of losing the ship.
Starmaps should be copied at stations with a skill affecting copy speed.
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Darodem
Minmatar
STK Scientific
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Posted - 2006.08.28 04:52:00 -
[18]
Best idea so far, and the only idea I favor.
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Sjoor
S.A.S
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Posted - 2006.08.28 09:04:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Sjoor on 28/08/2006 09:05:57
Edited by: Sjoor on 28/08/2006 09:04:09
This is great.
No AP combo tho and to help the new system implement quickly the following:
patch 1 (after testing): introduction
patch 2 (1 month later): removal of all old bookmarks
Sure people will whine a little, but who cares, instadocks need to be redone. Deepsafes need to be redone. People stash stuff in cans in safes, hehe they need to find those spots themselfes the hardway again. Oh and of course old fashioned bookmarks can't be copied anymore now :)
Well this would be really nice to implement the same time as the new scanner system goes life, but I guess that's a little to much to ask.
If I'm correct the new probing system makes u able to scan for cans anyways.
Again best idea I have seen lately.
/me votes for job offer from ccp to op.
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Insta solution
Remove aggro reset on jump, remove secure can concord flagging |
Auldare
S.A.S
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Posted - 2006.08.28 09:14:00 -
[20]
Maybe let AP stay with it but it takes a few seconds extra to enter into warp, scanner calibrating the starmap or something like that
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Joerd Toastius
Octavian Vanguard
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Posted - 2006.08.28 10:08:00 -
[21]
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Relworp
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2006.08.28 10:37:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Aliniel Vitissun
At least this way, people who don't want others insta'ing through their system all the time can hunt down and kill the scouts while they're scanning the system. Block starmap-scanning for a month or so and nobody will have accurate maps of the place.
First thing that jumped out at me was the fact that they would, instead, revert back to using the insta's they had previously. Thusly only this, coupled with BM removals would work. And we all know why that wouldn't be welcomed.
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Maya Rkell
Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2006.08.28 11:06:00 -
[23]
*GRIIIIND*
Every month, seven weeks at best, you need to replace them. There is ALLREADY a natural innacuracy of ~1.5km on a warp.
"Autopilot"
No. Allowing AP instas is a bad thing.
"This opens a new, persisting market for scout characters "
A new, persistant market for leeches which take ISK from players to ENABLE normal gameplay, nothing else.
"and thus immune to Escrow scamming."
Dream on. People will still try.
I'd not change for this system if I had a choice. Period. And that's key - I'd switch to corp BM's in an instant, frex.
//Maya |
Aliniel Vitissun
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Posted - 2006.08.28 14:24:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Auldare
Maybe let AP stay with it but it takes a few seconds extra to enter into warp, scanner calibrating the starmap or something like that
Brilliance
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Aliniel Vitissun
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Posted - 2006.08.28 14:29:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Maya Rkell
*GRIIIIND*
Every month, seven weeks at best, you need to replace them. There is ALLREADY a natural innacuracy of ~1.5km on a warp.
"Autopilot"
No. Allowing AP instas is a bad thing.
"This opens a new, persisting market for scout characters "
A new, persistant market for leeches which take ISK from players to ENABLE normal gameplay, nothing else.
"and thus immune to Escrow scamming."
Dream on. People will still try.
I'd not change for this system if I had a choice. Period. And that's key - I'd switch to corp BM's in an instant, frex.
And that's the problem I can't figure out with this idea. I don't see a way to get people willingly off of the pre-existing system into the newer system. The autopilot integration was an attempt at offering some incentive. You can't just go around deleting all bookmarks, either. Any ideas towards how people can be convinced to stop using BMs, without the introduction of a vastly superior system, would be most welcome.
Well now you can see exactly where each starmap goes, so these escrows, unlike BMs, can be properly examined before purchase.
I was fairly certain that we have an abundance of scout characters already. Making them essential in maintaining travel seemed like a good way to add roles of playing to the game.
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Ellaine TashMurkon
MetaForge
Knights Of the Southerncross
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Posted - 2006.08.28 15:22:00 -
[26]
I just made a few trips about 20 jumps in 0.0 on weekend partially on aoutpilot. This prooves that instas are not nercesary for travel. They just increase comfort :)
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Maya Rkell
Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2006.08.28 21:04:00 -
[27]
Ellaine, if you're LUCKY. And in secured space, sure.
Next time you might get 1 jump. "Might" does not cut it. Citing ANY specific example does not cut it. It's invalid the moment someone warps to 15km and gets ganked.
Aliniel Vitissun, as a fix purely for scramblers/WCS, it works. I don't think it relates to instas at all. I do know that adding time hanging there vulnrable in space when alligning is a bad thing.
//Maya |
Joerd Toastius
Octavian Vanguard
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Posted - 2006.08.29 00:44:00 -
[28]
Looks like fairly weak complaints to me, tbh. Autopilot is fixable as suggested by eg adding a slight delay (also means ships can be caught leaving a gate on AP as well as arriving at it). "Grind" doesn't apply directly as the majority of people won't need to do anything of the sort, especially if you think positively for thirty seconds and say "corporate starcharts". And *****ing about having to rely on other people? Oh noes, let's remove player industry entirely and just spawn cheap ships everywhere. Gimmie a break...
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Maya Rkell
Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2006.08.29 00:49:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 29/08/2006 00:50:55
"Autopilot is fixable as suggested by eg adding a slight delay"
Where is there ANY requirement for a delay? No, AP == 15km warp. Period. No need to change anything there.
"the majority of people won't need to do anything of the sort"
Yes they will.
"corporate starcharts"
A new concept for the thread. I'm not here to fix other peoples problems for them, and I don't see that this is any different from CorpBM's: a patch which makes them less painful but is in NO way a fix.
There's a vast difference between dealing with other people and a parasitic class which enables normal gameplay.
And sure, would you like it behind the third ventral or lateral thruster?
//Maya |
Reggie Stoneloader
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Posted - 2006.08.29 00:52:00 -
[30]
I like the delay to warp when on AP. In terms of RP, having the computer calculate the jump without the attention of the pod pilot would probably be less efficient than doing in with your help. It makes AP travel slower and more dangerous, and allows a manual pilot to catch up to an AP pilot.
The precise delay could be matched to ship size, or it could just be a universal five seconds or so. Adjusting it would modify the time advantage of manual travel.
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