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Warping to a station should place you within docking range

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Paul Tsukaya Dirt 'n' Glitter 96	Posted - 2014.11.13 13:33:39 - [1] - Quote A long time ago there wasn't an option to warp at zero to a gate. That meant that people without warp at zero bookmarks were vulnerable to being ganked. Today the issue still exists with insta dock bookmarks. When you warp at zero, or select a station and click "dock" you are meaning to warp into docking range of the station. However for many stations you'll land well outside docking range and risk being blapped by station campers. Now like with the warp at zero change, there will be those who disagree with this saying it will remove content (in this case being free kills on players who haven't grasped this completely unintuitive mechanic). if we're serious about bringing new players into eve then, then removing pointless and unintuitive rituals they need to perform in order to not die is one of those things that just has to happen. Hopefully the idea that "warping to a station should place you within docking range" isn't considered too radical and outlandish.
Paul Tsukaya Dirt 'n' Glitter 96	Posted - 2014.11.13 13:36:00 - [2] - Quote The "EPA" (Egghelende Port Authority) division of my corporation is going to hate me for this post. I'm sure many of those who have attempted to dock in Egghelende are familiar with them.
Jurico Elemenohpe Laughing Coffin's 3	Posted - 2014.11.13 13:45:17 - [3] - Quote Unless ducking range is something else (2500m radius around station), what? When I warp to 0, I can always dock.
Xindi Kraid Priano Trans-Stellar State Services Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 810	Posted - 2014.11.13 13:48:33 - [4] - Quote Huh? which station design does this? I can't say I have ever noticed a problem. What happens more often by far is having to wait a few seconds between pressing the button to dock and getting confirmation from aura and actually getting yanked inside, but that's not really a huge issue either.
Paul Tsukaya Dirt 'n' Glitter 96	Posted - 2014.11.13 13:49:14 - [5] - Quote Jurico Elemenohpe wrote: Unless ducking range is something else (2500m radius around station), what? When I warp to 0, I can always dock. This post is proof of why we need this change. There's a lot of players under the false impression that "when I warp to 0 I can always dock." This mechanic is completely unintuitive, not to mention not documented or explained anywhere.
Paul Tsukaya Dirt 'n' Glitter 96	Posted - 2014.11.13 13:50:03 - [6] - Quote Xindi Kraid wrote: Huh? which station design does this? I can't say I have ever noticed a problem. What happens more often by far is having to wait a few seconds between pressing the button to dock and getting confirmation from aura and actually getting yanked inside, but that's not really a huge issue either. Many station designs do. During the time you're "waiting a few seconds" and approaching the station, you can be killed. That's because you're not actually landing inside docking range. This is why to avoid dying to station campers people that live in lowsec use insta dock bookmarks.
Mehrune Khan Viziam Amarr Empire 10	Posted - 2014.11.13 13:56:28 - [7] - Quote I've been doing a lot of courier missions, and I haven't noticed this problem. I always warp to 0 and I always end up right next to the station I'm docking at. Sometimes the station takes a while to acknowledge your docking request. I think that is by design. Either someone else (even an NPC) is docking and there is a queue, or it's a lore thing to create the illusion that the NPC's are too busy to get around to you right now. I could be wrong, and it's just lag or something. But if it's intentional I think it's a nice touch. Anyways when it happens I just spam the dock button and they usually get around to me a little faster.
Paul Tsukaya Dirt 'n' Glitter 96	Posted - 2014.11.13 14:02:57 - [8] - Quote Mehrune Khan wrote: I've been doing a lot of courier missions, and I haven't noticed this problem. I always warp to 0 and I always end up right next to the station I'm docking at. Sometimes the station takes a while to acknowledge your docking request. I think that is by design. Either someone else (even an NPC) is docking and there is a queue, or it's a lore thing to create the illusion that the NPC's are too busy to get around to you right now. I could be wrong, and it's just lag or something. But if it's intentional I think it's a nice touch. Anyways when it happens I just spam the dock button and they usually get around to me a little faster. The reason the station takes a while to acknolwedge your docking request is because your ship needs to move into docking range first. During this time you can be targeted and killed. If you use an insta dock bookmark then you don't get this delay where "it takes a while to acknowledge your docking request."
Mehrune Khan Viziam Amarr Empire 10	Posted - 2014.11.13 14:04:27 - [9] - Quote Paul Tsukaya wrote: Mehrune Khan wrote: I've been doing a lot of courier missions, and I haven't noticed this problem. I always warp to 0 and I always end up right next to the station I'm docking at. Sometimes the station takes a while to acknowledge your docking request. I think that is by design. Either someone else (even an NPC) is docking and there is a queue, or it's a lore thing to create the illusion that the NPC's are too busy to get around to you right now. I could be wrong, and it's just lag or something. But if it's intentional I think it's a nice touch. Anyways when it happens I just spam the dock button and they usually get around to me a little faster. The reason the station takes a while to acknolwedge your docking request is because your ship needs to move into docking range first. During this time you can be targeted and killed. If you use an insta dock bookmark then you don't get this delay where "it takes a while to acknowledge your docking request." No, actually. I warp to 0 and I end up in range. When I'm waiting for the dock request my ship isn't moving.
Paul Tsukaya Dirt 'n' Glitter 96	Posted - 2014.11.13 14:07:18 - [10] - Quote Mehrune Khan wrote: Paul Tsukaya wrote: Mehrune Khan wrote: I've been doing a lot of courier missions, and I haven't noticed this problem. I always warp to 0 and I always end up right next to the station I'm docking at. Sometimes the station takes a while to acknowledge your docking request. I think that is by design. Either someone else (even an NPC) is docking and there is a queue, or it's a lore thing to create the illusion that the NPC's are too busy to get around to you right now. I could be wrong, and it's just lag or something. But if it's intentional I think it's a nice touch. Anyways when it happens I just spam the dock button and they usually get around to me a little faster. The reason the station takes a while to acknolwedge your docking request is because your ship needs to move into docking range first. During this time you can be targeted and killed. If you use an insta dock bookmark then you don't get this delay where "it takes a while to acknowledge your docking request." No, actually. I warp to 0 and I end up in range. When I'm waiting for the dock request my ship isn't moving. That's the case for some stations, but for many stations you end up out of range. It depends on the size of your ship too, so it's especially important to use the instadock when you're in a pod.

Jur Tissant The TERRA Guardians of Serenity 302	Posted - 2014.11.13 14:53:53 - [11] - Quote Yes, this is an issue, I have no idea how the people above have gone through their EVE careers without noticing it. The big problem is that it's largely arbitrary/random so you have no idea if you are going to land at 0m or 2500m from the station you just warped to. Please CCP, fix this issue.
ShahFluffers Ice Fire Warriors Snuffed Out 6517	Posted - 2014.11.13 15:07:14 - [12] - Quote This has been around for ages. Whenever you warp somewhere, there is a "margin of error" of about 2500 meters to anything you warp to. I'm pretty sure this is intentional. Nothing is supposed to be completely accurate. Hell... even drones and guns are never 100% accurate despite the best efforts of some pilots. A little unpredictability is a good thing. It keeps you on your toes and offers opportunity to others. Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. "How did you veterans start?"
Paul Tsukaya Dirt 'n' Glitter 97	Posted - 2014.11.13 15:13:03 - [13] - Quote ShahFluffers wrote: This has been around for ages. Whenever you warp somewhere, there is a "margin of error" of about 2500 meters to anything you warp to. I'm pretty sure this is intentional. Nothing is supposed to be completely accurate. Hell... even drones and guns are never 100% accurate despite the best efforts of some pilots. A little unpredictability is a good thing. It keeps you on your toes and offers opportunity to others. Except there is no unpredictability. If you use an insta dock bookmark you will land in docking range every single time. This "feature" doesn't add excitement or keep people on their toes, it just forces people to make and use bookmarks, and punishes those who aren't aware of this unintuitive and obtuse "game mechanic."
Delt0r Garsk Shits N Giggles 205	Posted - 2014.11.13 15:42:04 - [14] - Quote I have lost a few pods and shuttles to this even in Amarr (WTs! ). It was changed sometime in summer this year. I expect the warp code change introduced this inadvertently or something. Death and Glory! Well fun is also good.
Tchulen Trumpets and Bookmarks The Volition Cult 843	Posted - 2014.11.13 15:43:05 - [15] - Quote Whilst I agree with ShahFluffers regarding a little unpredictability being a good thing, I do see the OP's point. If I remember correctly, it's not unpredictable. Those stations where the warp to zero is inside the docking perimeter you always warp to inside the docking perimeter and for those that it isn't you don't. Mind you, the direction you warp in from often makes a difference. That said, I don't think it's a massive issue. The development time required to normalise all the station docking ranges so that warp to zero always warps you to inside the docking range irrespective of where you warp from for every station without making station docking work from ludicrously far away would seem better spent on more worthwhile things.
Vadeim Rizen Doughboys Overload Everything 94	Posted - 2014.11.13 16:03:49 - [16] - Quote This is also a contributing factor to haulers dying in jita. If a cloaky hauler warps to station 3 in jita (i cant remember from what gate) but it's nearly 100% landing ~2k off station which is close enough to decloak your ship but far enough you cant dock until you slowboat for 4-5 seconds to 300m docking radius. People who don't know this is happening will die. Every one of my chars has an insta-dock at every busy station just for these reasons.
Paul Tsukaya Dirt 'n' Glitter 99	Posted - 2014.11.14 00:55:42 - [17] - Quote Vadeim Rizen wrote: This is also a contributing factor to haulers dying in jita. If a cloaky hauler warps to station 3 in jita (i cant remember from what gate) but it's nearly 100% landing ~2k off station which is close enough to decloak your ship but far enough you cant dock until you slowboat for 4-5 seconds to 300m docking radius. People who don't know this is happening will die. Every one of my chars has an insta-dock at every busy station just for these reasons. I use insta dock and undock bookmarks in jita regardless of the circumstances, the jita undock is a spooky place where a lot of people who doesn't understand game mechanics well have died.
Some Rando University of Caille Gallente Federation 1282	Posted - 2014.11.14 01:03:38 - [18] - Quote ShahFluffers wrote: This has been around for ages. Whenever you warp somewhere, there is a "margin of error" of about 2500 meters to anything you warp to. I'm pretty sure this is intentional. Nothing is supposed to be completely accurate. Hell... even drones and guns are never 100% accurate despite the best efforts of some pilots. A little unpredictability is a good thing. It keeps you on your toes and offers opportunity to others. I agree with the quoted post. I've noticed this on gates as well, having to slowboat in even when warping to 0, and the same thing also happens when I warp to a wormhole or bookmark at 0. CCP has no sense of humour.
McChicken Combo HalfMayo The Happy Meal 65	Posted - 2014.11.14 23:16:47 - [19] - Quote It's like this purposely and it creates content. A big -1 from me. Creating the instadock bookmark is not always available so it's not a matter of extra unnecessary steps to achieve safety. There are enough scenarios where you need to dock up in a station you don't have a bookmark for and don't have the opportunity to obtain a bookmark first. A couple Tornado on the undock can make quick work of a cruiser docking up during a roam in low. Tchulen wrote: Whilst I agree with ShahFluffers regarding a little unpredictability being a good thing, I do see the OP's point. If I remember correctly, it's not unpredictable. Those stations where the warp to zero is inside the docking perimeter you always warp to inside the docking perimeter and for those that it isn't you don't. Mind you, the direction you warp in from often makes a difference. I've never encountered a station where you always end up in the docking ring and never encountered one where you always end up out of it. It could be though that player owned stations are different than empire, as I've never docked in sov. ~ Bookmarks in overview ~ Fleet improvements
Discomanco We pooped on your lawn Resonance. 53	Posted - 2014.11.14 23:22:11 - [20] - Quote ShahFluffers wrote: This has been around for ages. Whenever you warp somewhere, there is a "margin of error" of about 2500 meters to anything you warp to. I'm pretty sure this is intentional. Nothing is supposed to be completely accurate. Hell... even drones and guns are never 100% accurate despite the best efforts of some pilots. A little unpredictability is a good thing. It keeps you on your toes and offers opportunity to others. Pretty much this. This doesn't only count for stations, but also stargates, other players, beacons or whatever. Now of course this doesn't affect stargates since they have an activation range of 2500m (I have a few times landed at 2480m), but docking is much smaller. The docking range is around 300m (from observation), but you still have a chance of landing upto 2500m, meaning you likely have to slowboat some of the way, which is not far. Whether this needs change or not, I'm neutral on

ShahFluffers Ice Fire Warriors Snuffed Out 6525	Posted - 2014.11.15 00:06:01 - [21] - Quote Paul Tsukaya wrote: Except there is no unpredictability. If you use an insta dock bookmark you will land in docking range every single time. That is called planning ahead. Doing so can reduce or eliminate unpredictability. This also applies to the turrets and drones I mentioned in my previous post. Failure to plan ahead should give someone else the opportunity to take advantage of the situation (as you have become painfully ware of). Paul Tsukaya wrote: This "feature" doesn't add excitement or keep people on their toes, it just forces people to make and use bookmarks, and punishes those who aren't aware of this unintuitive and obtuse "game mechanic." Let me rephrase that for you; This "feature" adds excitement for the people taking advantage of it. It forces people to plan ahead and punishes those who overlook small details or patterns. If you have been playing for more than a month or two you should begin to notice this variance as it applies to everything you warp to. The most obvious example of this is with stargates. Sometimes you land just outside jumping range of a stargate, other times you land right in the middle of the damn thing and "bounce off." Vadeim Rizen wrote: If I remember correctly, it's not unpredictable. Those stations where the warp to zero is inside the docking perimeter you always warp to inside the docking perimeter and for those that it isn't you don't. Mind you, the direction you warp in from often makes a difference. You are confusing the massive differences in station docking radii and the warp landing variance. I can assure you, they quite unrelated. When you warp to a station, your ship lands within a 2500m "sphere" around the edge of the station docking radius... with the center of that sphere landing exactly at the edge. That is why you sometimes end up well within the station radius and sometimes you land well outside of it. Here is another way to think about it: For those of you familiar with cyno mechanics, imagine lighting a cyno just on the edge of a station's undock radius. The jump-in point is anywhere within 2500m of that cyno. That is how the warp variance mechanic works. Minus the cyno. Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. "How did you veterans start?"
Jvpiter Jovelike 100	Posted - 2014.11.15 00:25:31 - [22] - Quote Warping to station should work 100% exactly as it does right now. Creating an instadock bookmark takes less than a minute to do. This additional step is a good way to filter out lazy players.
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 1990	Posted - 2014.11.15 02:14:36 - [23] - Quote when warp to 0 was created it was to reduce the lag created by the millions of bookmarks that were made for gate to gate travel. it was not because warping to 15km left players too vulnerable. Players being vulnerable is a damn good thing. But if the bookmarks at stations start to cause crippling lag then sure, and make warping to an insta undock the typical undocking process as well. until then -1 EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Alvatore DiMarco Capricious Endeavours Ltd 3082	Posted - 2014.11.15 04:29:11 - [24] - Quote I have noticed something reasonably important, and maybe it's been mentioned already. When you select to "Dock" at a station, you may or may not come out of warp within docking range. When you select "Warp to Zero", however, (at least in my experience) you generally always land in docking range.
Gay Pornstar Surprisingly Deep Hole Try Rerolling 17	Posted - 2014.11.15 18:44:22 - [25] - Quote Im +1 for this change. The existing mechanic is annoying and breaks what little flow this game has sometimes. While I am aware that this would eliminate some content for PVPers I highly doubt anyone is taking heavy advantage of this as it stands, and just looks to it for incidental kills on noobs too lazy to make proper bookmarks and too unlucky to get a good warpin. There is an idea of a Gay Pornstar; some kind of abstraction. But there is no real me: only an entity, something illusory. And though I can hide my cold gaze, and you can shake my hand and feel flesh gripping yours and maybe you can even sense our lifestyles are probably comparable... I simply am not there.
Daichi Yamato Xero Security and Technologies 1991	Posted - 2014.11.16 13:44:10 - [26] - Quote Gay Pornstar wrote: and just looks to it for incidental kills on noobs too lazy to make proper bookmarks and too unlucky to get a good warpin. You've just justified this 'feature'. lazy ppl die un lazy ppl dont die. /thread. EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided" "So it will be up to a pilot to remain vigilant wherever they may be flying and be ready for anything at any time"
Arla Sarain 115	Posted - 2014.11.16 13:57:07 - [27] - Quote Reasons for: alleviate the need of Docking Bookmarks, reducing the load on the database as per CCPs statement that a huge part of is effin bookmarks. Reasons against: Same reason. What the random docking range does is makes it necessary to chart enemy/hostile systems with stations. I'm not inclined to one or the other. But this change won't be without a loss.


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