Yo Wyke I was waiting until postpatch to post in MD, but you probably want to update your taxes. They're way off. Relevant links:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=33468&find=unread
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/CustomsOffice

The taxable value are the same for all items in the same tier
Advanced Commodities: 1,350,000.00 ISK
Specialized Commodities: 70,000.00 ISK
Refined Commodities: 9,000.00 ISK
Basic commodities: 500.00 ISK
Planet Resources: 5,00 ISK

Tax are indeed 100 times higher than pre-patch (In Highsec)

Customs Offices in High Sec will remain under the authority of CONCORD who will, in turn, charge doubled import and export taxes

...

The big difference comes from the updated value of PI products. Before the patch, tax was a mere 0.1% of the value or close enough, now it's actually a 10% of the market value.

The Interbus CO in my wormhole has tax set at 17%. Before patch, I was paying 200,000 isk per day, now the number will be closer to 5,000,000 isk per day. That's about 30% of my PI profit.

Can you list the pre and post patch tax rates per m3? I can't seem to find a reliable source.

The problem is, given the increase in POS costs, there are likely to be wide ranging repercussions throughout the market. This effectively eliminates new player participation in PI and heavily curtails high and low sec POS operations due to the difficulty in defending POCO units, as they're both easily destroyed by battleships and are unarmed.

As Bob said, you now simply have to monitor taxes alot more than you used to. In the past taxes where pretty much ignored as they hardly ever took a bite out of profitability, and if they did, you just moved onto soemthing more profitable. Now with it being such a large amount and a significant amount of the final products cost, you are forced to pay attention to it.

No more weekend warrior PI crap, you now need to run spread sheets or programs to figure out how much your making or loosing doing a certain thing, which is really what you should of been doing anyways as it's more efficient to use a program rather than working out numbers yourself on a pad of paper (I know..I tried and gave up).

Spreadsheets are not for everyone. I expect a good chunk of people will simply give up when they see the hefty taxes.

I'm curious, where do most of the current PI goods come from? Wouldn't the new tax just push floor prices up proportionally and level in a way that leaves highsec profits effectively the same? Or is there enough from low/null alone to make it unprofitable in the long term for some items?

Yes, profit will be relative the same once the sell price climb a bit. I know Coolant already went up to 12k.

A lot of people are math averse though, they see that million export tax and already assume they're losing money.

I am just curious about one thing. Won't the Interbus offices all be gone in a week anyway, since anyone can blow them up just for kicks?

The net result is that T2 prices rise across the board as players give up due to low perceived returns and T2 becomes a rich man's game again, just like in the bad old days of the BPO lottery. This reduction in T2 production would pretty much be the death blow to the moon goo market

The problem is not so much the prices on the market as the increase in overhead for doing other operations.

Example: POS profits for non-low/null sec are pretty thin, but represent almost half of the T2 mods sold on the market, according to some estimates. Small corps use PI to reduce overhead by producing their own fuel and either stockpiling or selling any surplus.

That surplus now, though, actually reduces short term profits due to the increased price of exports, assuming that the product does not sell immediately, and creates difficulties in acquiring materials, as too much of the corps money quickly becomes tied up in merchandise which is slow to move.

The net result is that T2 prices rise across the board as players give up due to low perceived returns and T2 becomes a rich man's game again, just like in the bad old days of the BPO lottery. This reduction in T2 production would pretty much be the death blow to the moon goo market, causing major alliances to loose money as their primary export goes into freefall.

And it will squeeze out new players, and the simple reason is that most of them will set up a single P1 planet, and see their first PI op costs more to export than their ship does, at little profit. I ran a one day load of oxygen and it cost more then most destroyers to export. I'm sure if i wait a while it will sell at a (small) profit, once sales taxes get done with it we're looking at maybe 50%, but that's assuming that the market remains stable (which is a joke in PI) and that I'm patient enough not to sell to buy orders (something I remember NOT being as a newb) at which point you may actually very well BE taking a loss.

A major problem with FCing is people getting bored. It's a constant struggle between finding a suitable target and spending too long flying about not shooting anything. POCOs are a great paliative to boredom. I can park my fleet at a red or grey POCO while waiting for my scouts to report. The twitchy kids in my fleet have something to shoot while the dozy ones get to go afk or alt tab. They will make a very useful stopping place while we're looking for a proper fight.

There's really no reason to park everyone up at a safe spot rather than parking people at a poco. Who knows maybe the locals will come to contest our casual vandalism which grants us the fight my scouts aren't managing to find. And if we reinforce it we've got a very likely fight in 24 hours time.

I've just updated it to use the new tax rates.

The only reason a FC would not be blowing up a POCO is when he wants to move the fleet to a better location or actually has a target enemy fleet or ship to engage. And this is entirely apart from any strategic or economic reasons - my members are simply happier if they're doing something rather than doing nothing.

Are most people going to make the gantries themselves after buying the blueprints from contract, or buy the manufactured item from the market?

I bought 6 blueprints and the pi materials to make them, and it cost about 600 mil. Wouldn't most people do the same or are they happy to go with the current prie on the market?

Are most people going to make the gantries themselves after buying the blueprints from contract, or buy the manufactured item from the market?

I bought 6 blueprints and the pi materials to make them, and it cost about 600 mil. Wouldn't most people do the same or are they happy to go with the current prie on the market?

Say, it looks like you might expect PI prices to rise?

As of midnight (so 15 hours old now), 1,534 Interbus Customs Offices had been destroyed.

I think you're forgetting that the POCOs (as opposed to Interbus COs) have reinforcement timers. Who wants to alarm clock to shoot down a custom's office~?

(nobody)

The report of



Making my 6k POCO demand look very modest.

My estimates:

P0 - still worthless to export, turn it into P1 and have 1/4 the haul volume.

P1 - The low priced stuff will have to rise to at least 250 ISK/u. The high priced stuff might move up another 50-85 ISK/u. That puts P1 prices at 250-900 ISK, with 700 ISK as a broad baseline.

P2 - It takes 16 P1 to make a P2. So 700 * 16 + 900 ISK/u tariff + 5% profit = about 13k. Some P2 will be lower at 9k, some will be higher at 15k, but overall most of it will end up around 13k +/- 1k. I think that will get shaved back down to 11-12k by the end of December as people adjust.

P3 - It takes 6.67 to 10 units of P2 to make a P3. Export tariff is 7000 ISK/u. So the 2-input P3 would end up at at 98k and 3-input P3 might end up around 140k. But I expect the market to revolt a bit at that price and people will instead make P3 from P1 inputs. Making P3 from P1 in hi-sec saves you anywhere from 9k to 13.5k ISK/u in tariffs on each unit of P3. So instead of 140k at the upper-end, I expect that to end up more in the 120-125k range, with the average being around 100k.

P4 - Bit fuzzier here, but the low-end would probably be no less then 1.2M ISK/u with the high end at around 2M ISK/u. Hi-sec factories will have to rework to make P4 from P2 in order to avoid the P3 tariffs.

The main reasons I think P1 will end up around 700 instead of 1000 ISK/u number:

- PI harvesting is still a low-skill endeavor. Train CCU4 and IPC4 and optionally Planetology III and you're done. That's about 4 days of skill training.

- Setting up a PI harvest planet only costs about 6.5M ISK for a CCU4 world. Payback is only 7-10 days. Low investment.

- Last summer, people were willing to do hi-sec PI harvesting for as little as 600k ISK/day. Now they're making closer to 1M ISK/day. Unless they get tired of spending 5-10 minutes every other day to reset 5 planets, that supply will continue.

For most new players learning how to make 4-5M ISK/day from 5 hi-sec planets is a big deal. At less then 2 months in-game, a few million ISK is still a lot if they play less then 10 hours per week. We're constantly teaching people in our channels how to setup PI harvest colonies as a step stone into putting them more in control of their own destiny. So there will always be new players entering the supply side.

However, the long-term impact of POCOs on lo-sec P1 supply has yet to be seen/felt. But without a dev-post, we have no way of knowing how much P1 production was done in hi/low/null/w space. My guess is that at least 50-70% of the P1 materials come from hi-sec planets. But nobody knows.

There's also an extremely high demand on the PI system at the moment from everyone wanting to build POCOs. So I don't think my predictions will come true until January after the markets stabilize around the new tariffs / supply / demand.

P1 - The low priced stuff will have to rise to at least 250 ISK/u. The high priced stuff might move up another 50-85 ISK/u. That puts P1 prices at 250-900 ISK, with 700 ISK as a broad baseline.

P2 - It takes 16 P1 to make a P2. So 700 * 16 + 900 ISK/u tariff + 5% profit = about 13k. Some P2 will be lower at 9k, some will be higher at 15k, but overall most of it will end up around 13k +/- 1k. I think that will get shaved back down to 11-12k by the end of December as people adjust.

I'm thinking more that the passage of fleets will casually put POCOs into reinforcement mode in the manner of elephants damaging trees by moving through a forest. Subsequent fleets may destroy reinforced pocos just because it's a target of opportunity.

Put it this way if you are running a fleet, don't have a target and there happens to be a red or grey poco in reinforced on your overview would you consider finishing it off? I think some people might.

You seem to be discarding the option to generate P2 directly on the harvest planet. In my limited experience, that should work fine. At least well enough to undercut P1->P2 factory planets. Any reason not to do it?

Someone said: If these estimates are accurate, there is massive room for trading right now - on anything that contains a lot of PI stuff (either directly or indirectly). P4 materials being the biggest... I mean, POS gear is going to go up a lot. Hello 400M control towers?

I wish I'd have more liquid isk on hand... but I guess I need to be happy with the massive piles I'm going to make now, confident that next time a patch like this hits, I have even more liquid isk to take advantage of market shifts :D "

Man you are 2 months late !!

I wave to you with 4534 units of Organic Mortar Applicators all made by myself and 2 alts in lowsec in last 2 months.
I'll show you my new shinny Jump Frieghter and a Carrier when prices will be high enough to dump all things on market

I'm curious, where do most of the current PI goods come from? Wouldn't the new tax just push floor prices up proportionally and level in a way that leaves highsec profits effectively the same? Or is there enough from low/null alone to make it unprofitable in the long term for some items?

Cool my numbers where roughly right, tghat sheet just totally threw me and being tired as hell didnt help too much either lol