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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
1671
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Posted - 2014.11.15 14:47:07 -
[1] - Quote
handige harrie wrote:So to get the maximum out of your high end slaves, you'll need a compatible body I'm just gonna take out the context real quick....and there.
Nice and dirty |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
1674
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Posted - 2014.11.15 20:46:31 -
[2] - Quote
Tolkenmoon wrote:Azda Ja wrote:Tolkenmoon wrote:Eve is turning into a theme park, clones are going the way of the skill que, they said it would never be longer than a 24hour slot so you could learn all the small skills without having to set the alarm clock. Yes you could put a long skill in at the end to make it longer. They caved in and made it as long as you want.
This game really is getting easy, befor long it will be wow in space. Quality of life improvements != making the game a themepark. How is it quality of life improvement? Eve is supposed to be cold and harsh and you learn from your mistakes. By doing this they are holding your hand, you forget to upgrade your clone and die tough your fault. Well, with that thinking, why not add ship fuel and maintained crews? More harsh and punishing. No benefit to forego the decision. Why do you think we have fuel alerts and fuel blocks and visible timers? Nothing says learn from decisions like not having stopwatches and calendars to plan every minute detail. |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
1674
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Posted - 2014.11.15 22:01:21 -
[3] - Quote
I'm also curious how the two arguments "eve should be hard and punishing" and "it's not a big deal at all to players" are holding water on each other in the same thread. |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
1675
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Posted - 2014.11.15 22:19:07 -
[4] - Quote
Tau Cabalander wrote:I could see the basic clone not having any hardwiring implant slots, and having to upgrade the clone on a per-slot basis. So long as an omega clone can have 50 slots for high-grade implants. Those glorious pod mails. And the futile attempts to unplug them all. |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
1692
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Posted - 2014.11.17 03:19:29 -
[5] - Quote
Vol Arm'OOO wrote:Antihrist Pripravnik wrote:Anyone who can fly a T3 can pay off medical clones. "Can" and "willing to if they are given a choice" are not the same thing.
Thats the point - clone costs impose risk on high sp lvl players for participating in low skilled pvp. People who dont like that are just inclined to perfer risk free pvp which is not the way eve has ever been. whats wrong with high sp characters participating in anything? |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
1694
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Posted - 2014.11.17 16:25:11 -
[6] - Quote
Vol Arm'OOO wrote:Amarrian Cougar wrote:This change is a win\win all around and anyone that opposes it is out of touch.
1. This change will create content. People won't be as reluctant to PVP for fear of losing a clone. 2. Fights will be better. People will be less inclined to GTFO during a fight to save their clone. 3. Older players will be more inclined to PvP again without fear of losing a clone worth more than 7 of their ships. 4. No more "oops, my character received brain damage because I forgot to pay a bill" 5. More death will result from this, meaning more players will most likely resub. OFC people will be less inclined to GTFO because the change promotes riskless, meaningless pvp. Bet you like wow too. I don't remember the last time I saw pod fight. So what do you mean riskless? |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
1696
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Posted - 2014.11.17 18:13:09 -
[7] - Quote
Vol Arm'OOO wrote:Rowells wrote:Vol Arm'OOO wrote:Amarrian Cougar wrote:This change is a win\win all around and anyone that opposes it is out of touch.
1. This change will create content. People won't be as reluctant to PVP for fear of losing a clone. 2. Fights will be better. People will be less inclined to GTFO during a fight to save their clone. 3. Older players will be more inclined to PvP again without fear of losing a clone worth more than 7 of their ships. 4. No more "oops, my character received brain damage because I forgot to pay a bill" 5. More death will result from this, meaning more players will most likely resub. OFC people will be less inclined to GTFO because the change promotes riskless, meaningless pvp. Bet you like wow too. I don't remember the last time I saw pod fight. So what do you mean riskless? Time for you to catch up - we were talking about ship loss being riskless for vets due to the amount of isk in the game and the removal of clone costs (which is a potential loss following ship loss if you dont get your clone out). So the ship doesn't count at all in this "riskless" factor? Does it change the amount of risk I take based on the isk I have? Is my ship suddenly worth less because of wallet size?
However training skills unrelated to the loss is supposed to be the cost of a podding? So, If a fully maxed research and Indy pilot decides to fly a frigate in a fight, he needs to lose more than a person with the same amount of SP and experience invested in flying the same ship? |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
1699
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Posted - 2014.11.17 23:34:28 -
[8] - Quote
13kr1d1 wrote:Kamahl Daikun wrote:13kr1d1 wrote:But you're wrong. Or you have an agenda. Clone costs don't unduly burden new players. Below 900,000 sp you don't need a clone. The next clone cost is 28,000. You only need to upgrade clones if you get podded, which is not PvE. A ship for PvP will cost you 100x more than a clone if you fail to warp off properly. Apparently the problem is the supervets who spend, at minimum, 32m per clone. Somehow they get podded enough that they're spending a fortune in clones. They're also vets who can't secure their pods and warp out in time. I'm not even being sarcastic. These are legit arguments being presented. All too true. People complain about not going in frigates because of the clone cost. We can say that yes, in null with bubbles, people can't save their clones. Or when there's a SB gatecamp, etc. a 35 mil clone/frigate combo is still cheaper than a 300 mil cruiser/clone combo. I don't get their arguments. So, as a player gains more SP, they shouldn't fly softer/smaller ships? If thats the case I change my stance on skill removal. |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
1699
|
Posted - 2014.11.18 01:43:15 -
[9] - Quote
13kr1d1 wrote:No, you can still fly it. Its your choice. It's an equalizer between newbs and "vets" as a game mechanic, but it's so much more, it makes sense in the GAME WORLD. I didnt ask if you could fly it I'm asking if you believe they should. And no, it doen't make sense in the game world. Games are so vast and different with different rules and methods, that statement is pointless. And I would like to ask you if SP is a direct representation of someones vet status. How about someone who has skillpoints maxed in every non-combat area and just a couple in T1 frigates and cruisers. Maybe even a hauler skill or two. Is that person unevenly matched against someone with an almost identical amount of time flying those cruisers and frigs?
13kr1d1 wrote:I can hear the complaints, they sound like rich people being upset that everyone is taxed based on a percentage of their income because, being rich, they have to pay more in strict units of $.
In other words "rich people want more for less" syndrome. No, I'm discussing whjether or not it benefits the game as whole. Simply put, can you play with it? If you enjoy flicking the lightswitched in your home all day, then I geuss its just right for you.
13kr1d1 wrote:You're not treating EvE as an actual game world unto itself, you're just treating it's requirements as an impediment to you having fun "your way". Well, who do we cave to next? The people that want ship costs removed? Well, since we have to pay for clones every time, why dont we add ship crews you have to pay and feed, standard docking fees based on ship size, and restricting the character limits of NPC corp players to 120 *cough*. Screw it, lets just hire the sims designers to get their input on how we can make this game more needlessly tedious.
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Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
1703
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Posted - 2014.11.18 02:27:09 -
[10] - Quote
13kr1d1 wrote:If you're finding undocking into pod death repeatedly because somehow, for some reason, you're in a situation you can't escape from, how is that a flaw with clone upgrades? Go ahead and explain to me, in complete sentences, how the hell you got that little tidbit from my response. |
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Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
1705
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Posted - 2014.11.18 05:31:26 -
[11] - Quote
13kr1d1 wrote:Burl en Daire wrote:On some podcast I heard a dev say that there was a thread where a player asked for the clone upgrades and replacement to automatic. His statement was something like if the mechanic needs to be automatic then is is probably bad. Something along those lines, I will try to find it and link it here. Point is that the dev is correct, if the action needs to be automatic because not choosing will hurt you and there is really no other choice then it probably is a bad mechanic. Rookie ship given to you automatically for docking. Insurance automatically paid out for blowing up. Anything that "exists" in "eve" that pilots don't have to deal with is "automatic" like hiring and manning the crews, for instance. Theres no punishment for not getting a rookie ship, and you pay for the insurance, unless you didnt, which i honestly dont care either wya on that one. |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
1716
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Posted - 2014.11.18 22:59:07 -
[12] - Quote
Mharius Skjem wrote:Jvpiter wrote:13kr1d1 wrote: If it actually impacts gameplay in the moment in any way, it becomes another variable to control for in an already complex rock-paper-scissors game. Will it make rock or paper bigger, and blur the difference between being able to rationally figure out a person's fit or just go #YOLO coinflip into a fight because they might be running clone X which will push a setup over the edge?
Maybe there is a core EVE philosophy somewhere that loss should be meaningful, and players should always be careful in the choices they make and so on and so forth. This is what HTFU is about, after all. But I think what CCP saw is that clone grade costs were so discouraging to pilots with expensive clones is that it deters undocks and good fights. EVE thrives on conflict, and I believe what this change will encourage is more conflict. I don't think so personally, I just think the null bears will start whining about implant costs next, and how they shouldn't be penalised for losing them etc. eventually eve will be like wow in space. If that happens I can assure you all that my name won't be on the next ******* monument in Iceland. Cool thing about implants is you don't get penalized for it plugging them in. |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
1716
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Posted - 2014.11.19 00:45:18 -
[13] - Quote
Derath Ellecon wrote:While i dont think clone cost removal is the big issue this thread seems to make, implant loss removal would be BAD This I agree on. Only caveat, option of some form of salvage from corpse. Opportunities for killer and killed. But that's a separate discussion. |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
1720
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Posted - 2014.11.19 15:23:52 -
[14] - Quote
Kamahl Daikun wrote:Derath Ellecon wrote:Kamahl Daikun wrote:Magormor wrote:13kr1d1 wrote:I agree. I don't really see why they have to further negatively impact the gameplay of Eve because people can't adapt. lololol who is "not adapting"??? my 10 cents. Clone cost is silly. I often wont engage a gang with a sabre unless I know I can win. I do otherwise take fights that have a high probability of my loosing, but I hate to add an extra 20mill to each death so there is less content. I am a PVPer saying I will adapt for the good effects of me PVPing more. You have 0 PVP kills and 1 pod loss. This does not affect you. https://zkillboard.com/character/581013969/ You're a PvPer who can't get your pod out? Are you the one who has the magic method for getting your pod out of a sabre's bubble? Didn't realize everyone bubbles for a 1v1. Have you tried not engaging Sabres? I didn't realize pvp is greatly composed of 1v1. |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
1733
|
Posted - 2014.11.20 16:50:29 -
[15] - Quote
Ssabat Thraxx wrote:Mashie Saldana wrote:This change is great. I have about 188m sp and a new clone costs me more than 50m isk. I mostly do pvp in lowsec so I rarely lose my pod but if I lived in null I'd hate to spend 50 mil just on clones.
Good job CCP You have 188m SP and a 50m hit on what I would expect to be a less than average death rate is upsetting to you? I have about 31M sp and I can wipe my arse with 50M Isk Bills. He who does not learn from the past is doomed to repeat it: RIP Every other MMO that went soft hoping to draw in more of the Mighty Morphing Power Rangers generation. wel then, if its so damn easy for high SP characters, why keep it around? |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
1739
|
Posted - 2014.11.22 20:31:01 -
[16] - Quote
Medalyn Isis wrote:FunGu Arsten wrote:Medalyn Isis wrote:Pod death should result in SP loss. Just a small amount, but enough to make it a deterrent that you would not want to lose your pod. the more you pvp the worse you become // i like your highsec attitude! Or, actions have consequences. Eve isn't meant to be a theme park as you would seem to believe. and I'm assuming that clone expenses were the only consequences then? There are no others? Removing clones would remove all consequences? |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
1739
|
Posted - 2014.11.22 20:46:30 -
[17] - Quote
Mharius Skjem wrote:Rowells wrote:Medalyn Isis wrote:FunGu Arsten wrote:Medalyn Isis wrote:Pod death should result in SP loss. Just a small amount, but enough to make it a deterrent that you would not want to lose your pod. the more you pvp the worse you become // i like your highsec attitude! Or, actions have consequences. Eve isn't meant to be a theme park as you would seem to believe. and I'm assuming that clone expenses were the only consequences then? There are no others? Removing clones would remove all consequences? It's certainly one more nail in the sandbox's coffin, which is why I am uneasy about it. Each nail in the sandbox is yet another birth pain for the theme park. Most people who are supporting the removal of the clone costs are doing so as a result of their own self interest. Null bears and F1 monkeys mostly. So far, I have seen to main arguments on how clones are useless in providing any meaningful content.
- Clones are so cheap they just become an annoyance. - clones are so expensive they become a detrimental factor in deciding whether to undock or not
So on both ends of the spectrum you see it providing no meaningful content, and on the flipside, having a negative impact on content. In a worst case scenario, it makes people want to risk less. Its not because nobody wants to pay isk for it, but why do it? Why pour isk into something that provides no benefit? Why would you fit an expensive module on your ship if it did absolutely nothing, aside from keeping your ship from prematurely exploding? Theres nothing to be gained by spending more on it, but something to be lost by spending less on it. It doesnt even follow the rule of diminishing returns like everything else. There is a set point for each person where it either works, or it doesnt. Its annoyingly binary.
Simply put, it reduces the amount of 'fun' risk pilots are willing to take and provides no 'fun' gameplay in return. Getting rid of clone costs offers otions to replace it with a better system later, as has been mentioned.
E: do we really want a mechanic that discourages risk for higher SP characters? Don't we want them undocked and shootable? Don't we want them risking real assets in space more often? Clone costs do not help that in any way. Not to mention it doesnt even remotely follow risk vs reward, which the actual risk situation eve should encourage. |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
1739
|
Posted - 2014.11.22 22:14:28 -
[18] - Quote
Ssabat Thraxx wrote:Rowells wrote: So far, I have seen to main arguments on how clones are useless in providing any meaningful content.
- Clones are so cheap they just become an annoyance. - clones are so expensive they become a detrimental factor in deciding whether to undock or not
So on both ends of the spectrum you see it providing no meaningful content, and on the flipside, having a negative impact on content. In a worst case scenario, it makes people want to risk less. Its not because nobody wants to pay isk for it, but why do it? Why pour isk into something that provides no benefit? Why would you fit an expensive module on your ship if it did absolutely nothing, aside from keeping your ship from prematurely exploding? Theres nothing to be gained by spending more on it, but something to be lost by spending less on it. It doesnt even follow the rule of diminishing returns like everything else. There is a set point for each person where it either works, or it doesnt. Its annoyingly binary.
Simply put, it reduces the amount of 'fun' risk pilots are willing to take and provides no 'fun' gameplay in return. Getting rid of clone costs offers otions to replace it with a better system later, as has been mentioned.
I disagree. In other MMO's where one had a choice as to if they wanted to play in a PVP or straight PVE shard, I always chose PVP even if I wasnt wild about that game's PVP. This is because, to me, half the damn fun of playing is having to watch your back, a constant threat of danger and loss! I keep 4 rather expensive clones, and 1 empty. The empty is for wild shenanigans in null, the others are optimized for certain ships. I make a "meaningful decision" with real consequences to my gameplay just about every day as I decide whether to jump into another clone and which one. Like I said, removing the element of danger is removing part of the fun! do you mean empty as in implants or as in clone upgrades |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
1739
|
Posted - 2014.11.22 23:15:15 -
[19] - Quote
Medalyn Isis wrote:Rowells wrote:E: do we really want a mechanic that discourages risk for higher SP characters? Don't we want them undocked and shootable? Don't we want them risking real assets in space more often? Clone costs do not help that in any way. Why don't we turn tranquillity into sisi, put everything on the market at 100 isk with unlimited supply, after all, we don't want to discourage people from pvp do we? Your logic is flawed. Pod loss is meant to be the most detrimental thing which can happen to a pod pilot, the consequence should reflect that. Then the bounty system might finally make sense too. Your calling my logic flawed while pulling a slippery slope? Good lord.
As has been said before there is a spectrum of effects clones have. It doesn't affect low so characters that much but much more against higher sp characters.
The point is, clone costs add nothing to the game. Everything else has the diversity of decision to either increase risk and possible reward, or decrease risk and potential reward. Do clones fit in there? No, they are binary. Can't play with them, can't risk one that is better than your opponent, no gameplay. Eve is supposed to be risky, but there is also supposed to be degrees of reward for taking that risk. It's just not there. And until the current system gets removed, there is not much room for improvement |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
1740
|
Posted - 2014.11.23 01:03:12 -
[20] - Quote
Ssabat Thraxx wrote:Rowells wrote:
The point is, clone costs add nothing to the game. Everything else has the diversity of decision to either increase risk and possible reward, or decrease risk and potential reward. Do clones fit in there? No, they are binary. Can't play with them, can't risk one that is better than your opponent, no gameplay. Eve is supposed to be risky, but there is also supposed to be degrees of reward for taking that risk. It's just not there. And until the current system gets removed, there is not much room for improvement
No. Today, do I take my HG Slave Pod out? It gives a huge advantage to me should I be flying armor... sure would suck to lose it tho... Should I take out my Talisman Pod? I sure like that new Ashimmu.... Maybe I'll just hop in a frig and derp around in the local null systems, don't really need an implant for it... and dont rly care if I die... See? Choices, diversity, risk vs reward. All right there. TBH, for me it's the principle here that matters more than the substance of the nerf. Clone replacements are cheap enough that they should be trivial for just about anyone. The big deal here IMO is gonna be if your implants survive. They let that happen and fuggit, yes you can have my stuff. A freakin gamre based around PVP with no penalty for dying... the thought of it makes me angry, lol. Implants have absolutely nothing to do with clone costs. You don't lose anything other than opportunity for not using them. |
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Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
1740
|
Posted - 2014.11.23 01:06:50 -
[21] - Quote
Mharius Skjem wrote:Rowells wrote:Medalyn Isis wrote:Rowells wrote:E: do we really want a mechanic that discourages risk for higher SP characters? Don't we want them undocked and shootable? Don't we want them risking real assets in space more often? Clone costs do not help that in any way. Why don't we turn tranquillity into sisi, put everything on the market at 100 isk with unlimited supply, after all, we don't want to discourage people from pvp do we? Your logic is flawed. Pod loss is meant to be the most detrimental thing which can happen to a pod pilot, the consequence should reflect that. Then the bounty system might finally make sense too. Your calling my logic flawed while pulling a slippery slope? Good lord. As has been said before there is a spectrum of effects clones have. It doesn't affect low so characters that much but much more against higher sp characters. The point is, clone costs add nothing to the game. Everything else has the diversity of decision to either increase risk and possible reward, or decrease risk and potential reward. Do clones fit in there? No, they are binary. Can't play with them, can't risk one that is better than your opponent, no gameplay. Eve is supposed to be risky, but there is also supposed to be degrees of reward for taking that risk. It's just not there. And until the current system gets removed, there is not much room for improvement The reward is that you've accrued and are protecting a **** load of sp that you are using to pwn the enemy. not getting a punishment =/= reward. If I decide not to invest money into a new capital production line, do I have less money than I started? No. If I don't decide to fit a mid slot in my ship, does it suffer from a detriment? No. If I don't use implants, do I lose anything at all? No. The only thing lost is opportunity to do more or lose more. Clone costs don't allow that. You either pay enough to keep sp or enough to keep it.
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Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
1740
|
Posted - 2014.11.23 01:10:10 -
[22] - Quote
Mharius Skjem wrote:Ssabat Thraxx wrote:Rowells wrote:
The point is, clone costs add nothing to the game. Everything else has the diversity of decision to either increase risk and possible reward, or decrease risk and potential reward. Do clones fit in there? No, they are binary. Can't play with them, can't risk one that is better than your opponent, no gameplay. Eve is supposed to be risky, but there is also supposed to be degrees of reward for taking that risk. It's just not there. And until the current system gets removed, there is not much room for improvement
No. Today, do I take my HG Slave Pod out? It gives a huge advantage to me should I be flying armor... sure would suck to lose it tho... Should I take out my Talisman Pod? I sure like that new Ashimmu.... Maybe I'll just hop in a frig and derp around in the local null systems, don't really need an implant for it... and dont rly care if I die... See? Choices, diversity, risk vs reward. All right there. TBH, for me it's the principle here that matters more than the substance of the nerf. Clone replacements are cheap enough that they should be trivial for just about anyone. The big deal here IMO is gonna be if your implants survive. They let that happen and fuggit, yes you can have my stuff. A freakin gamre based around PVP with no penalty for dying... the thought of it makes me angry, lol. That my friends is how you win the moral argument. If there's nothing to risk is there actually any contest. If there's no loss when you lose it diminishes the value of the other guys win. good post. You're making the assumption that the only thing someone brought was a pod. How often to you engage someone in your pod? And assuming someone brought a ship, then they have risked something. Clones are not the risk we should be associating with combat. The actual things (ships implants and modules) are the risk. And there is plenty of room for risk to get involved there. |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
1740
|
Posted - 2014.11.23 01:17:33 -
[23] - Quote
Ssabat Thraxx wrote:Rowells wrote:Ssabat Thraxx wrote:Rowells wrote:
The point is, clone costs add nothing to the game. Everything else has the diversity of decision to either increase risk and possible reward, or decrease risk and potential reward. Do clones fit in there? No, they are binary. Can't play with them, can't risk one that is better than your opponent, no gameplay. Eve is supposed to be risky, but there is also supposed to be degrees of reward for taking that risk. It's just not there. And until the current system gets removed, there is not much room for improvement
No. Today, do I take my HG Slave Pod out? It gives a huge advantage to me should I be flying armor... sure would suck to lose it tho... Should I take out my Talisman Pod? I sure like that new Ashimmu.... Maybe I'll just hop in a frig and derp around in the local null systems, don't really need an implant for it... and dont rly care if I die... See? Choices, diversity, risk vs reward. All right there. TBH, for me it's the principle here that matters more than the substance of the nerf. Clone replacements are cheap enough that they should be trivial for just about anyone. The big deal here IMO is gonna be if your implants survive. They let that happen and fuggit, yes you can have my stuff. A freakin gamre based around PVP with no penalty for dying... the thought of it makes me angry, lol. Implants have absolutely nothing to do with clone costs. You don't lose anything other than opportunity for not using them. They have everything to do with clone value. A clone can have a few billion ISK worth of implants in it, do you risk it and get the benefit those implants offer, or do you feel the risk is too great and you decide not to use that clone? They have nothing to do with clone costs. I use implants rarely and I don't get punished for not using them.
This discussion is on the clone upgrade costs. Not the implants. |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
1740
|
Posted - 2014.11.23 01:43:53 -
[24] - Quote
I understand the the clone value argument thing.
My stance in the death cost: it's not necessarily a bad idea, but the current system is too binary. Dying is not the issue, it's what you lost previous to the death that actually matters. And one could argue being sent back to home station is pretty risky, and that can be mitigated by not going far, or increased by going farther in search of potential content. Clones are not where the risk should be and especially shouldn't be related to SP at all. |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
1740
|
Posted - 2014.11.23 01:47:03 -
[25] - Quote
Rain6637 wrote:jump fatigue for the distance you were reset to your med clone. a time throttle, rather than an ISK throttle. Wrong. The fatigue would be based on SP. The more you have the longer timer. Regardless if distance. |
Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
1749
|
Posted - 2014.11.25 23:06:09 -
[26] - Quote
Arune Malieka wrote:Next they'll remove explosions because its too graphic.
In fact they'll remove any rendering what so ever because being shot by guns is too scary.
Then they'll remove the spread sheets because thats too complicated.
Then they'll remove gates and make it so that in order to go from one system to the next you just type in the name and teleport, keeping the game gank free. Hopefully they'll remove slippery slopes first, since so many people tend to fall for them. |
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