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Logon Tactics and the Do Nothing CCP

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President Hours	Posted - 2006.08.28 18:37:00 - [1] Much like the do nothing congress here in the States, CCP has decided - for years now - to do nothing about massive logons in quite random 0.0 sectors. The main excuse that GM's everywhere buy is that: "Oh we all just decided to logon on at the same time, what a cawinkidink? Don't you think GM?" "Oh yes [you can go on exploiting the game] I won't ban you." It would have to be the second comming of Christ if by chance 30+ people decide to logon at the same time IN 0.0!!! WHERE NOBODY FRAKING LIVES FOR FRAKS SAKE!!! How about another tactic to create massive POS lag? [This is done by filling the POS Shields with every bit of useless itemry found in eve, from other unanchored POS's to drones to floating cargo] Or jetinosing massive loads of cargo DURING COMBAT!!! [oh here is an idea, how about you NOT ALLOW a player to jetinosing cargo during combat? do your little nerf thing where needed for once, eh?] Wow bravo CCP for adding Tier this and that while neglecting to fix some of the most well known exploits in the game... it sure does make me want to play... And for the kicker? Bravo to the GM's especially for being so ignorant...
End Yourself Core Domination	Posted - 2006.08.28 18:40:00 - [2] login trap != exploit there is no need to deny it and tell lies about loggin in by chance at same time --- Fighting for peace is like screwing for virginity.
Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2006.08.28 18:41:00 - [3] Edited by: Death Kill on 28/08/2006 18:41:48 Originally by: President Hours Bravo to the GM's especially for being so ignorant... WARNING WARNING! IRONY OVERLOAD!!!!! edit : Peacock McNuggets = best name evar. Recruitment
Peacock McNuggets	Posted - 2006.08.28 18:41:00 - [4] Ranting FTL
Peacock McNuggets	Posted - 2006.08.28 18:45:00 - [5] Originally by: Death Kill Peacock McNuggets = best name evar. Hehe. Maybe
coldplasma	Posted - 2006.08.28 19:19:00 - [6] Edited by: coldplasma on 28/08/2006 19:20:52 Originally by: End Yourself login trap != exploit there is no need to deny it and tell lies about loggin in by chance at same time Yes, it is an exploit Carl. It is the same as putting cargo cans with thousands of BM's outside a gate. It is the same as a fleet spamming local so your GUI lags out. It's an unfair advantage that uses a game mechanic that is not intended. Before you say insta's fall into the same catagory, insta's can be used by anyone. No traveller can log 100 pilots onto a system at once, or spam local to an extent where you'll completely lag out, preventing you from warp. ____________________________ See you in 0.0 kids...
Razin	Posted - 2006.08.28 19:33:00 - [7] Originally by: coldplasma Edited by: coldplasma on 28/08/2006 19:20:52 Originally by: End Yourself login trap != exploit there is no need to deny it and tell lies about loggin in by chance at same time Yes, it is an exploit Carl. It is the same as putting cargo cans with thousands of BM's outside a gate. It is the same as a fleet spamming local so your GUI lags out. It's an unfair advantage that uses a game mechanic that is not intended. Before you say insta's fall into the same catagory, insta's can be used by anyone. No traveller can log 100 pilots onto a system at once, or spam local to an extent where you'll completely lag out, preventing you from warp. Ambush tactics are by nature used by only one side in a given engagement. Nerf Local and you will at least get rid of the lag associated with a mass logon.
zincol S.A.S	Posted - 2006.08.28 19:34:00 - [8] Please Contact Evil Thug for more infomation on Login traps and you too can become one of the best skilled login trappers ever. Tbh just get over it.
coldplasma	Posted - 2006.08.28 19:35:00 - [9] Originally by: Razin Originally by: coldplasma Edited by: coldplasma on 28/08/2006 19:20:52 Originally by: End Yourself login trap != exploit there is no need to deny it and tell lies about loggin in by chance at same time Yes, it is an exploit Carl. It is the same as putting cargo cans with thousands of BM's outside a gate. It is the same as a fleet spamming local so your GUI lags out. It's an unfair advantage that uses a game mechanic that is not intended. Before you say insta's fall into the same catagory, insta's can be used by anyone. No traveller can log 100 pilots onto a system at once, or spam local to an extent where you'll completely lag out, preventing you from warp. Ambush tactics are by nature used by only one side in a given engagement. Nerf Local and you will at least get rid of the lag associated with a mass logon. I'm not discouraging ambush tactics, but logon traps are not primarily designed to suprise the enemy in order to gain the upper hand. They are designed to lag the enemy to an extent so they cannot warp to a safespot or jump out or do anything for that matter. ____________________________ See you in 0.0 kids...
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.08.28 19:38:00 - [10] Originally by: End Yourself login trap != exploit there is no need to deny it and tell lies about loggin in by chance at same time I'd love to see you do some math and realize the % chance of dozens of people, of the same alliance, on the same VoIP, same gang, same system, same location...etc. All logging in at the same time. There is no 'chance' in it.
Razin	Posted - 2006.08.28 19:43:00 - [11] Originally by: coldplasma Originally by: Razin Ambush tactics are by nature used by only one side in a given engagement. Nerf Local and you will at least get rid of the lag associated with a mass logon. I'm not discouraging ambush tactics, but logon traps are not primarily designed to suprise the enemy in order to gain the upper hand. They are designed to lag the enemy to an extent so they cannot warp to a safespot or jump out or do anything for that matter. Are you saying that the lag associated with a mass login affects only one side of the engagement?
Noriath	Posted - 2006.08.28 20:04:00 - [12] I don't know how the lag works out in this game, but there are plenty of ways to exploit it. The most annoying in my oppinion is not even log on trapps, but POS clutter. If you just drop enough crap inside a POS shield nothing can possibly warp to the POS without experiencing a massive lag spike that can take up a minuite, once it's over however you can act in relative freedom though, so the defenders get the whole time while you're still laged to destroy you... Stuff like that is just plain ruining this game, POS sieges are a total joke if you're up against someone who exploits lag, because you can't warp in dreads or support fleets without the defenders getting a minuite and longer to kill them before they can even activate a single mod. Login traps seem to work somehow to the advantage of the people doing it as well, though I have no Idea why they are less lagged then everyone who is already logged in to be honest.
Razin	Posted - 2006.08.28 20:11:00 - [13] Originally by: Noriath Login traps seem to work somehow to the advantage of the people doing it as well, though I have no Idea why they are less lagged then everyone who is already logged in to be honest. How do you know? Did you get a decisive advantage every time you participated in a login trap? Or is it that you blame login traps for the times you got spanked in an engagement?
Merdaneth	Posted - 2006.08.28 21:18:00 - [14] Originally by: End Yourself login trap != exploit there is no need to deny it and tell lies about loggin in by chance at same time Originally by: CCP The common definition of an exploit is ôto use the game mechanics in such a way as they were not intended for the purpose of gaining an unfair advantage over other players.ö is logging on a game mechanic? = yes is logging on together an intended way to ambush people? = no do logon traps give an advantage? = yes is the advantage unfair? = yes (no way to predict or counter) Login trap = exploit Please read the definition before making bold statements.
DukDodgerz	Posted - 2006.08.28 21:29:00 - [15] Edited by: DukDodgerz on 28/08/2006 21:30:16 got to luv the buggy as heck forum code huh.... FRODO HAS FAILED; BUSH HAS THE RING!!! The HippoKing spots a new post
DukDodgerz	Posted - 2006.08.28 21:30:00 - [16] Originally by: Merdaneth Originally by: End Yourself login trap != exploit there is no need to deny it and tell lies about loggin in by chance at same time Originally by: CCP The common definition of an exploit is ôto use the game mechanics in such a way as they were not intended for the purpose of gaining an unfair advantage over other players.ö is logging on a game mechanic? = yes is logging on together an intended way to ambush people? = no do logon traps give an advantage? = yes is the advantage unfair? = yes (no way to predict or counter) Login trap = exploit Please read the definition before making bold statements. you got it right! the logon trap exploiters are using an out of game tool to gain an advantage in the game (team speak or other voice chat system most likely). While the use of TS is not in itself an exploit, to use it to cordinate a mass logon in one system just as the enemy is entering, which will cause lag (and it is danmed well known it will) is by CCP's own rules, an exploit "12.14 How do I know whatÆs legal or illegal in the game? Using the game mechanics in any way to achieve an unintended game behavior is exploiting. Stay abreast of known issues and changes to the game. Employing the use of an unauthorized third party program is always illegal. Those who create, distribute, advocate or use unauthorized third party programs will be permanently banned from EVE." and "12.1 What is an exploit? The common definition of an exploit is ôto use the game mechanics in such a way as they were not intended for the purpose of gaining an unfair advantage over other players.ö Due to the ever-changing dynamics involved with maintaining a virtual, persistent world, it can sometimes be difficult or confusing to determine what might be considered an exploit. Though every effort is made to avoid glitches that enable exploits to be used, they are occasionally discovered. Players have the responsibility of understanding how the game works and keeping themselves informed about changes to the game in order to comprehend what is deemed as an exploit. Those who are charged with employing the use of exploits will be reprimanded, which may include temporary suspension or a permanent ban of the account. Professing ignorance that you didnÆt know you were using an exploit will not prevent the enforcement of this rule." seems ccp is very lax if not negligent in enforcing their own rules. so why even have the rules if CCP will allow SOME to use them, while threatening others with a ban if they start to use the very same exploit??? FRODO HAS FAILED; BUSH HAS THE RING!!! The HippoKing spots a new post
DukDodgerz	Posted - 2006.08.28 21:36:00 - [17] Originally by: Noriath I don't know how the lag works out in this game, but there are plenty of ways to exploit it. The most annoying in my oppinion is not even log on trapps, but POS clutter. If you just drop enough crap inside a POS shield nothing can possibly warp to the POS without experiencing a massive lag spike that can take up a minuite, once it's over however you can act in relative freedom though, so the defenders get the whole time while you're still laged to destroy you... Stuff like that is just plain ruining this game, POS sieges are a total joke if you're up against someone who exploits lag, because you can't warp in dreads or support fleets without the defenders getting a minuite and longer to kill them before they can even activate a single mod. Login traps seem to work somehow to the advantage of the people doing it as well, though I have no Idea why they are less lagged then everyone who is already logged in to be honest. soooooo true dumping tons of CRAP items and bms in cans or frigits is by all definitions a freaking exploit to cause lag!!! CCP should pull thier head out and ban the well know users of this exploit...or just allow it and thus prove they are only interested in the real life cash flow and to hell with honest players. SELL SOME ISK ON EBAY CCP if you are that hard up for cash as to allow exploits from one well known group. FRODO HAS FAILED; BUSH HAS THE RING!!! The HippoKing spots a new post
wierchas noobhunter Caldari The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2006.08.28 21:44:00 - [18] Originally by: DukDodgerz Originally by: Merdaneth Originally by: End Yourself login trap != exploit there is no need to deny it and tell lies about loggin in by chance at same time Originally by: CCP The common definition of an exploit is “to use the game mechanics in such a way as they were not intended for the purpose of gaining an unfair advantage over other players.” is logging on a game mechanic? = yes is logging on together an intended way to ambush people? = no do logon traps give an advantage? = yes is the advantage unfair? = yes (no way to predict or counter) Login trap = exploit Please read the definition before making bold statements. you got it right! the logon trap exploiters are using an out of game tool to gain an advantage in the game (team speak or other voice chat system most likely). While the use of TS is not in itself an exploit, to use it to cordinate a mass logon in one system just as the enemy is entering, which will cause lag (and it is danmed well known it will) is by CCP's own rules, an exploit "12.14 How do I know what’s legal or illegal in the game? Using the game mechanics in any way to achieve an unintended game behavior is exploiting. Stay abreast of known issues and changes to the game. Employing the use of an unauthorized third party program is always illegal. Those who create, distribute, advocate or use unauthorized third party programs will be permanently banned from EVE." and "12.1 What is an exploit? The common definition of an exploit is “to use the game mechanics in such a way as they were not intended for the purpose of gaining an unfair advantage over other players.” Due to the ever-changing dynamics involved with maintaining a virtual, persistent world, it can sometimes be difficult or confusing to determine what might be considered an exploit. Though every effort is made to avoid glitches that enable exploits to be used, they are occasionally discovered. Players have the responsibility of understanding how the game works and keeping themselves informed about changes to the game in order to comprehend what is deemed as an exploit. Those who are charged with employing the use of exploits will be reprimanded, which may include temporary suspension or a permanent ban of the account. Professing ignorance that you didn’t know you were using an exploit will not prevent the enforcement of this rule." seems ccp is very lax if not negligent in enforcing their own rules. so why even have the rules if CCP will allow SOME to use them, while threatening others with a ban if they start to use the very same exploit??? so how u gona proff login traps ? u cant its imposible if even all ******* allaince will log on same time u canot prof that it was cordinated mass logon
ragewind Caldari VersaTech Interstellar Ltd. SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2006.08.28 22:04:00 - [19] a post about login traps posted TODAY! i atke it you havent loged in since the patch now you cant get 2 players to login together think they fixed login traps just they seem to have used a nuke and broke the game too ------------------------------------ Dragon the patch to optimise EVE. Welcome to Tranquillity the optimised snail Please wait 4 minuets to jump war targets are 2 seconds away.
Merdaneth	Posted - 2006.08.28 22:14:00 - [20] Originally by: wierchas noobhunter so how u gona proff login traps ? u cant its imposible if even all ******* allaince will log on same time u canot prof that it was cordinated mass logon It is generally know as 'proving something beyond reasonable doubt'. If 10 people log on in the same system in the same spot within 10 seconds, and combat follows immediately after logon, odds to that happening naturally are smaller than 1 in 10,000. People have been convicted of murder on far larger odds. Still, I think if CCP acts, they will do this on proof of multiple such occurences, odds of which are smaller than finding DNA that matches yours on a murder victim but isn't actually yours... Please, the proving is not the problem.
Sammiel Ars Caelestis Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.08.28 22:19:00 - [21] Originally by: wierchas noobhunter so how u gona proff login traps ? u cant its imposible if even all ******* allaince will log on same time u canot prof that it was cordinated mass logon Last time I checked, this wasn't a court of law. As such proof isn't required. Granted it'd be a bad business decision to ban people without a fairly strong suspicion, but there is nothing that says CCP requires proof.
wierchas noobhunter Caldari The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2006.08.28 22:26:00 - [22] situation i with my corp play fps any of them online cod/quake/ etc and then servers goes down so what do we do ? well some goes slepp but most of us log on eve at same time and cos we where based in 1 system defending pos like 20-30 bs loogs in like 2 mins period
wierchas noobhunter Caldari The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2006.08.28 22:28:00 - [23] Originally by: Sammiel Originally by: wierchas noobhunter so how u gona proff login traps ? u cant its imposible if even all ******* allaince will log on same time u canot prof that it was cordinated mass logon Last time I checked, this wasn't a court of law. As such proof isn't required. Granted it'd be a bad business decision to ban people without a fairly strong suspicion, but there is nothing that says CCP requires proof. now read 1 more time what u have wrote its like : " hmm this newb has 10 bils isk .. maybe he bued it from ebay ? ebay is bad lets ban him
Bill Shankly	Posted - 2006.08.28 23:00:00 - [24] Originally by: wierchas noobhunter situation i with my corp play fps any of them online cod/quake/ etc and then servers goes down so what do we do ? well some goes slepp but most of us log on eve at same time and cos we where based in 1 system defending pos like 20-30 bs loogs in like 2 mins period So you and 3o friends have a game of Quake, then all log on at exactly he same time when youve done ? I smell something.
DukDodgerz	Posted - 2006.08.28 23:18:00 - [25] Originally by: Bill Shankly Originally by: wierchas noobhunter situation i with my corp play fps any of them online cod/quake/ etc and then servers goes down so what do we do ? well some goes slepp but most of us log on eve at same time and cos we where based in 1 system defending pos like 20-30 bs loogs in like 2 mins period So you and 3o friends have a game of Quake, then all log on at exactly he same time when youve done ? I smell something. ya, and it sure smells like something a bull dropped... CCP can handle the banstick as they wish. As mentioned before there is no court of law involved, and the repeated use of the logon becomes obvious. If CCP wants to increase their revenue stream, they had better show the rest of the gaming community they will ban abusive-exploitive-behaviour players. The other MMO's sure as hell are doing something right if they have 10x or more players subscribing, and CCP copuld make a lot more by stopping the "bad" exploit players, even if it is a few hundred of them in the same well known alliance (not BoB or ASCN, but I am sure most know who uses the logon trap exploit as their secondary tactic, right after the massive lag inducing crap cans and frigates full of BM's inside their POS). FRODO HAS FAILED; BUSH HAS THE RING!!! The HippoKing spots a new post
Gort Rampage Eternal	Posted - 2006.08.28 23:25:00 - [26] Originally by: wierchas noobhunter situation i with my corp play fps any of them online cod/quake/ etc and then servers goes down so what do we do ? well some goes slepp but most of us log on eve at same time and cos we where based in 1 system defending pos like 20-30 bs loogs in like 2 mins period Please pardon me, but I don't believe you. Low-tech sig: "When in doubt, empty the magazine."
eLLioTT wave Art of War	Posted - 2006.08.28 23:47:00 - [27] cmon CCP its really not that hard, send out a few messages like you did for the recent BPO exploit, then start whacking them with the banstick!! 2 weeks minimum ban! and give the people who are greifed by this exploit their stuff back just to further annoy the exploiters. As for wondering how CCP can possibly know if it's a login trap because it's so hard to tell... if you are this stupid you should not be playing eve.
wierchas noobhunter Caldari The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2006.08.29 00:06:00 - [28] Edited by: wierchas noobhunter on 29/08/2006 00:10:38 Originally by: DukDodgerz Originally by: Bill Shankly Originally by: wierchas noobhunter situation i with my corp play fps any of them online cod/quake/ etc and then servers goes down so what do we do ? well some goes slepp but most of us log on eve at same time and cos we where based in 1 system defending pos like 20-30 bs loogs in like 2 mins period So you and 3o friends have a game of Quake, then all log on at exactly he same time when youve done ? I smell something. ya, and it sure smells like something a bull dropped... CCP can handle the banstick as they wish. As mentioned before there is no court of law involved, and the repeated use of the logon becomes obvious. If CCP wants to increase their revenue stream, they had better show the rest of the gaming community they will ban abusive-exploitive-behaviour players. The other MMO's sure as hell are doing something right if they have 10x or more players subscribing, and CCP copuld make a lot more by stopping the "bad" exploit players, even if it is a few hundred of them in the same well known alliance (not BoB or ASCN, but I am sure most know who uses the logon trap exploit as their secondary tactic, right after the massive lag inducing crap cans and frigates full of BM's inside their POS). well lets see basicly in game cpp can do anythink they want its ccp game and they dictate rules, but if for game action ccp is canseling someone acount aka baning, its means that they terminate bilateral agreement, basicly ccp sells service and we buy it, we pay for it rl money and we have contract with ccp. so "CCP can handle the banstick as they wish. As mentioned before there is no court of law involved, and the repeated use of the logon becomes obvious." well its not true they is commercial law and alot others who controls things like this ohh btw i thinks its good that we dont have so much ppl like wow eve comunity is mature not 14 years old kids
DukDodgerz	Posted - 2006.08.29 01:25:00 - [29] if you can't be bothered to read the rrules, then you have no right to discuss the rules. FRODO HAS FAILED; BUSH HAS THE RING!!! The HippoKing spots a new post
Ozmodan Minmatar Storm Industries	Posted - 2006.08.29 01:26:00 - [30] Pretty black and white, if you deliberately cause lag to give yourself an advantage, it is clearly an exploit. The pos trick is definitely an exploit as is a massive login in a system. Both are deliberately done to cause lag. If you are that blind you can't see that, you need to go back to elementary school, your logic processing abilities are fubared. Now as to enforcement, I am afraid that CCP, in their drive to add more players, has stretched mightily the ability of the GMs to respond, hence they are probably not doing much about it. Learners permit still current

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