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Are Skiffs overpowered ? Discuss.......

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Jay Joringer united system's commonwealth 426	Posted - 2014.11.17 15:23:43 - [31] - Quote Bethan Le Troix wrote: We are in a 0.6 system. I think I've found your problem. http://smug-bastard.blogspot.co.uk
Kaarous Aldurald Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance 10630	Posted - 2014.11.17 15:36:01 - [32] - Quote Bronson Hughes wrote: CCP gave pilots a choice: you can fly for tank, yield, or capacity. Hisec suicide ganking renders two of the three choices undesirable, so players eventually start choosing the third option en masse. Emergent gameplay. Working as intended. Whines of something being overpowered ensue, and those that understand both sides of the issue grin with an overwhelmingly powerful sense of irony. The Skiff does not really sacrifice yield. That's the problem here. If it's going to have so close to output of the other ships, it's tank should be adjusted downward. If that's not happening, then it should not have anything close to the yield of the other two. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs.
Thomas Mayaki Perkone Caldari State 31	Posted - 2014.11.17 15:51:01 - [33] - Quote Even tanked Skiffs can be cost effectively ganked.
Bronson Hughes The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration 738	Posted - 2014.11.17 15:51:02 - [34] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: The Skiff does not really sacrifice yield. That's the problem here. If it's going to have so close to output of the other ships, it's tank should be adjusted downward. If that's not happening, then it should not have anything close to the yield of the other two. The barges are balanced primarily around three things: yield, tank, and capacity. The idea was that each barge would specialize in one with the other barges sharing roughly similar performance in non-specialized areas. So, yes, the Skiff and the Mackinaw should have roughly the same yield, just as the Hulk and the Mack have roughly the same (non-existent) tank. However, despite my earlier comments I do think that the Skiff needs a bit of a debuff. Not in yield, but in capacity. Skiff/Mack: roughly same yield, Hulk has higher. Mack/Hulk: roughly same tank, Skiff has higher. Hulk/Skiff: Skiff can AFK mine over 50% longer than a Hulk can, but Mack is still the AFK king. Overpowered? I don't really think so, but I do think players are getting a bigger bang for their buck with Skiffs than they should be. If they want that tank, they shouldn't also get more AFK ability than a Hulk has. CCP Falcon's thoughts on suicide ganking. Reading Comprehension: so important it deserves it's own skillbook. I want to create content, not become content.
Meilandra Vanderganken Aliastra Gallente Federation 135	Posted - 2014.11.17 16:29:19 - [35] - Quote Bronson Hughes wrote: [quote=Kaarous Aldurald]The Skiff does not really sacrifice yield. That's the problem here. If it's going to have so close to output of the other ships, it's tank should be adjusted downward. If that's not happening, then it should not have anything close to the yield of the other two. The barges are balanced primarily around three things: yield, tank, and capacity. The idea was that each barge would specialize in one with the other barges sharing roughly similar performance in non-specialized areas. So, yes, the Skiff and the Mackinaw should have roughly the same yield, just as the Hulk and the Mack have roughly the same (non-existent) tank. /quote] If you think that a Hulk and a Mack have 'roughly' the same tank I recommend you look at the numbers again. A mack can easily be tanked to the point that it is no longer soloable with a T2 catalyst. Pretty much slapping any tanking mod or rig on it will do that. A Hulk requires much more effort to be unsoloable by a single T2. They are in no way 'roughly equal'.
Leto Thule Whelp Club 1596	Posted - 2014.11.17 16:33:49 - [36] - Quote Josef Djugashvilis wrote: Leto Thule wrote: Josef Djugashvilis wrote: The Skiff is not overpowerd, the ganker is under-skilled. Because moar shkillz will allow a gank catalyst to take down battleship EHP in less than 20 seconds. Bring more friends to the party. Yes, but that has nothing to do with being under skilled. Killboard https://zkillboard.com/character/90841161/ Ripard Teg sucks.
Bronson Hughes The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration 738	Posted - 2014.11.17 16:36:02 - [37] - Quote Meilandra Vanderganken wrote: If you think that a Hulk and a Mack have 'roughly' the same tank I recommend you look at the numbers again. A mack can easily be tanked to the point that it is no longer soloable with a T2 catalyst. Pretty much slapping any tanking mod or rig on it will do that. A Hulk requires much more effort to be unsoloable by a single T2. They are in no way 'roughly equal'. Compared to the tank you can get out of a Skiff, the difference in tank that you can get on Hulk and a Mack is pretty small. How many T2 Catalysts does it take to take down a well-tanked Skiff? CCP Falcon's thoughts on suicide ganking. Reading Comprehension: so important it deserves it's own skillbook. I want to create content, not become content.
Meilandra Vanderganken Aliastra Gallente Federation 136	Posted - 2014.11.17 16:50:45 - [38] - Quote Bronson Hughes wrote: Meilandra Vanderganken wrote: If you think that a Hulk and a Mack have 'roughly' the same tank I recommend you look at the numbers again. A mack can easily be tanked to the point that it is no longer soloable with a T2 catalyst. Pretty much slapping any tanking mod or rig on it will do that. A Hulk requires much more effort to be unsoloable by a single T2. They are in no way 'roughly equal'. Compared to the tank you can get out of a Skiff, the difference in tank that you can get on Hulk and a Mack is pretty small. How many T2 Catalysts does it take to take down a well-tanked Skiff? Something like 10-15. Several times what it would take to down a well tanked mack, let alone a Hulk. That's asuming max or very near max skilled catas and max or near max tanking skills on the target. So in reality your mileage will vary.
Bethan Le Troix Krusual Investigation Agency 132	Posted - 2014.11.17 17:06:29 - [39] - Quote Bronson Hughes wrote: Meilandra Vanderganken wrote: If you think that a Hulk and a Mack have 'roughly' the same tank I recommend you look at the numbers again. A mack can easily be tanked to the point that it is no longer soloable with a T2 catalyst. Pretty much slapping any tanking mod or rig on it will do that. A Hulk requires much more effort to be unsoloable by a single T2. They are in no way 'roughly equal'. Compared to the tank you can get out of a Skiff, the difference in tank that you can get on Hulk and a Mack is pretty small. How many T2 Catalysts does it take to take down a well-tanked Skiff? Probably three or four. The ones in question have the following tanking elements and are all fit identically. About 15 Skiffs all fit with an ORE Miner that sells for 400 mill each I think. Tanking elements are : Thermic Dissipation Amplifier II x1. Kinetic Deflection Amplifier II x1. Medium Shield Extender II x1. Medium CDFE II x1. He also has a module for EM resistance fitted which can be ignored for combat purposes and an ice rig on each one so the owner is doing ice belts somewhere in Minmatar space as well. I haven't checked the Charon fittings but the Orca is quite well fit with the new hull rigs etc. It also has a 'A' module fitted worth 1.3 billion ISK and another module worth close to one billion ISK. They are all as I speak very closely bunched up almost touching each other mining away. The guy has no idea........ This is going off the OP but if anyone is interested in discoing these ******* send me an EVE mail. I don't have the manpower so will just do what I can.
Bethan Le Troix Krusual Investigation Agency 132	Posted - 2014.11.17 17:07:43 - [40] - Quote Meilandra Vanderganken wrote: Bronson Hughes wrote: Meilandra Vanderganken wrote: If you think that a Hulk and a Mack have 'roughly' the same tank I recommend you look at the numbers again. A mack can easily be tanked to the point that it is no longer soloable with a T2 catalyst. Pretty much slapping any tanking mod or rig on it will do that. A Hulk requires much more effort to be unsoloable by a single T2. They are in no way 'roughly equal'. Compared to the tank you can get out of a Skiff, the difference in tank that you can get on Hulk and a Mack is pretty small. How many T2 Catalysts does it take to take down a well-tanked Skiff? Something like 10-15. Several times what it would take to down a well tanked mack, let alone a Hulk. That's asuming max or very near max skilled catas and max or near max tanking skills on the target. So in reality your mileage will vary. That many. Wow! No wonder he is fitting such expensive modules.
Bronson Hughes The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration 738	Posted - 2014.11.17 17:14:51 - [41] - Quote Meilandra Vanderganken wrote: Something like 10-15. Several times what it would take to down a well tanked mack, let alone a Hulk. That's asuming max or very near max skilled catas and max or near max tanking skills on the target. So in reality your mileage will vary. That was my point. Even though the tank on the Hulk and the Mack may look very different when compared side-by-side, the difference between them is pretty small when compared to a well-tanked Skiff. When comparing the time you can AFK mine between the barges though, the scale isn't so neatly divided: the Hulk clearly loses, the Mack clearly wins, and the Skiff is somewhere in between. It needs to be closer to the Hulk. Since it's yield is already on par with the Mack, that means it's ore hold needs to go down somewhat. Not overpowered though, at least not the way/amount people are suggesting here. CCP Falcon's thoughts on suicide ganking. Reading Comprehension: so important it deserves it's own skillbook. I want to create content, not become content.
La Nariz GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 3060	Posted - 2014.11.17 18:16:11 - [42] - Quote The solution to everything is to remove auto repeat from mining equipment. It prevents afk mining, makes bot detection easier and makes the hulk more attractive. This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
Derath Ellecon Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal 2336	Posted - 2014.11.17 18:19:13 - [43] - Quote I'm confused. There are plenty of groups, many posting in this thread that are able to drop Freighters, often empty without trouble. Certainly those same groups could tear up some skiffs without trouble.
La Nariz GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 3062	Posted - 2014.11.17 18:31:19 - [44] - Quote Derath Ellecon wrote: I'm confused. There are plenty of groups, many posting in this thread that are able to drop Freighters, often empty without trouble. Certainly those same groups could tear up some skiffs without trouble. The difference is scale and pay. Miner ganking was supposed to be small scale ganking, something solo/small groups of people could do, while freighter ganking is large scale; the same comparison works for pay. The problem that occurred is that ccp somewhere decided they don't value pvp minded players hence the focus on highsec buffs. This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
Tengu Grib Happy Fun times Spaceships in Space 661	Posted - 2014.11.17 18:32:16 - [45] - Quote La Nariz wrote: The solution to everything is to remove auto repeat from mining equipment. It prevents afk mining, makes bot detection easier and makes the hulk more attractive. And has virtually no affect on people who are actually at the keyboard, even if they are using ISboxer, I actually like that suggestion. The New Order is recruiting PVP pilots. Code. Forums are the place to be, all are welcome! The Law of High Sec.
Meilandra Vanderganken Aliastra Gallente Federation 137	Posted - 2014.11.17 18:35:18 - [46] - Quote Bronson Hughes wrote: Meilandra Vanderganken wrote: Something like 10-15. Several times what it would take to down a well tanked mack, let alone a Hulk. That's asuming max or very near max skilled catas and max or near max tanking skills on the target. So in reality your mileage will vary. That was my point. Even though the tank on the Hulk and the Mack may look very different when compared side-by-side, the difference between them is pretty small when compared to a well-tanked Skiff. Ah statistics, you can slice 'm anyway you want, for instance, if we take the hulk as base tank, the Mack has some 30% more tank.
Meilandra Vanderganken Aliastra Gallente Federation 137	Posted - 2014.11.17 18:47:26 - [47] - Quote Bethan Le Troix wrote: That many. Wow! No wonder he is fitting such expensive modules. Like I said, it's a 'get out of gank free'-card, while still being good at yield (on par with mack), having big enough ore hold to cycle your miners 5+ times before you have to drop it into your hauler, so it's semi-afk-able, it's fast, has a small sig radius and has a 50% drone damage bonus. Hell you could run lvl 4 missions in the thing probably :P It's just too much on one ship. My preffered solution would be a drastic cut on the yield like I said, something like 2/3 of mack. It can have all it's other bonusses and attributes (which in my book are also a bit high) but as it stands now, the Skiff is a no brainer. Nerfing it's ore bay is not going to change that since everyone and his dog mines with a hauling alt.
Kaarous Aldurald Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance 10632	Posted - 2014.11.17 18:49:42 - [48] - Quote While you can't actually run L4s in a Skiff, that's not hyperbole by much. I have run L3s in one before, shortly after the drone damage buff. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs.
Fret Thiesant The Imperial LansDrahd LOADED-DICE 58	Posted - 2014.11.17 18:52:30 - [49] - Quote Maybe I am bad at maths but a crew of catalysts should be able to kill one and still come out ahead isk wise. Don't see the issue.
La Nariz GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 3066	Posted - 2014.11.17 18:56:36 - [50] - Quote Bad at maths is right. This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
Tengu Grib Happy Fun times Spaceships in Space 663	Posted - 2014.11.17 19:02:01 - [51] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: While you can't actually run L4s in a Skiff, that's not hyperbole by much. I have run L3s in one before, shortly after the drone damage buff. Myself and some friends are still talking about taking a fleet of procurers with DDM's in the lows and seeing how much stuff we can wreck before we die. (We're guessing quite a bit) The New Order is recruiting PVP pilots. Code. Forums are the place to be, all are welcome! The Law of High Sec.
Bronson Hughes The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration 743	Posted - 2014.11.17 19:09:05 - [52] - Quote Tengu Grib wrote: Myself and some friends are still talking about taking a fleet of procurers with DDM's in the lows and seeing how much stuff we can wreck before we die. (We're guessing quite a bit) Suitcase & DDA in the lows; point, MASB, T2 Invul, & small cap boosters in the mids; small remote shield booster in the high slot; rigs to suit. Tell me a well-flown blob of those wouldn't be hard as hell to kill while still packing respectable drone firepower. CCP Falcon's thoughts on suicide ganking. Reading Comprehension: so important it deserves it's own skillbook. I want to create content, not become content.
Meilandra Vanderganken Aliastra Gallente Federation 137	Posted - 2014.11.17 19:11:42 - [53] - Quote Bronson Hughes wrote: Tengu Grib wrote: Myself and some friends are still talking about taking a fleet of procurers with DDM's in the lows and seeing how much stuff we can wreck before we die. (We're guessing quite a bit) Suitcase & DDA in the lows; point, MASB, T2 Invul, & small cap boosters in the mids; small remote shield booster in the high slot; rigs to suit. Tell me a well-flown blob of those wouldn't be hard as hell to kill while still packing respectable drone firepower. It would be hard to kill and pack respectable firepower and it's a great mining ship too. Hence my statement that is just too much on a single ship.
Black Pedro Yammerschooner 194	Posted - 2014.11.17 19:13:20 - [54] - Quote Fret Thiesant wrote: Maybe I am bad at maths but a crew of catalysts should be able to kill one and still come out ahead isk wise. Don't see the issue. Issue one: the fact that it is so much better than the Mackinaw in almost every respect means that there is less game play choice in selecting your ship. Skiff is the correct choice in nearly all (highsec) situations. Issue two: you are wrong. There is no way a T2 fit Skiff will drop enough loot to cover the cost of the 4-10 T2 gank Catalysts needed to pop it. I am fine with issue 2 if there is some trade off for this economic protection. Like significantly less yield than the Hulk and Mack for example to miners have to make a choice.
Bronson Hughes The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration 743	Posted - 2014.11.17 19:18:43 - [55] - Quote Meilandra Vanderganken wrote: It would be hard to kill and pack respectable firepower and it's a great mining ship too. Hence my statement that is just too much on a single ship. It'd be overpowered if it could do all those things at once. Without remote reps, the fit I proposed becomes considerably less tanky, and if you drop the remote shield booster for a strip miner or ice harvester, it'd have an absolutely anemic yield due to the lack of mining upgrades. I see no problem there. It's like the 'Geddon. The Geddon can be a good laser boat, or a good RR boat, or a good cap warfare boat, or a good missile boat, but it can't be all those things at the same time. CCP Falcon's thoughts on suicide ganking. Reading Comprehension: so important it deserves it's own skillbook. I want to create content, not become content.
Derath Ellecon Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal 2337	Posted - 2014.11.17 19:28:27 - [56] - Quote La Nariz wrote: Derath Ellecon wrote: I'm confused. There are plenty of groups, many posting in this thread that are able to drop Freighters, often empty without trouble. Certainly those same groups could tear up some skiffs without trouble. The difference is scale and pay. Miner ganking was supposed to be small scale ganking, something solo/small groups of people could do, while freighter ganking is large scale; the same comparison works for pay. The problem that occurred is that ccp somewhere decided they don't value pvp minded players hence the focus on highsec buffs. So I'm not an expert on ganking but it seems like it takes what around 20 catalysts to kill a freighter? So comparing tanks it seems it should take maybe what like 5 to kill a skiff? Sounds small enough scale to me. And seriously how many mining vessels are there to choose from? (seriously, i don't feel like counting), and there is what this one that can actually be tanked well enough to be safer?
La Nariz GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 3067	Posted - 2014.11.17 19:37:10 - [57] - Quote Derath Ellecon wrote: La Nariz wrote: Derath Ellecon wrote: I'm confused. There are plenty of groups, many posting in this thread that are able to drop Freighters, often empty without trouble. Certainly those same groups could tear up some skiffs without trouble. The difference is scale and pay. Miner ganking was supposed to be small scale ganking, something solo/small groups of people could do, while freighter ganking is large scale; the same comparison works for pay. The problem that occurred is that ccp somewhere decided they don't value pvp minded players hence the focus on highsec buffs. So I'm not an expert on ganking but it seems like it takes what around 20 catalysts to kill a freighter? So comparing tanks it seems it should take maybe what like 5 to kill a skiff? Sounds small enough scale to me. And seriously how many mining vessels are there to choose from? (seriously, i don't feel like counting), and there is what this one that can actually be tanked well enough to be safer? The fit is dependent upon the number of people participating, the less participating the more expensive the gank. Min/max this and you get 40 t1 catalysts for a freighter. Solo/small scale is subjective aside from the solo part. <=3 is in the range. After the changes all of them can be tanked sufficiently but, the age old problem is no one is ever willing to give up yield to do it. This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
Derath Ellecon Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal 2337	Posted - 2014.11.17 19:44:12 - [58] - Quote La Nariz wrote: Derath Ellecon wrote: La Nariz wrote: Derath Ellecon wrote: I'm confused. There are plenty of groups, many posting in this thread that are able to drop Freighters, often empty without trouble. Certainly those same groups could tear up some skiffs without trouble. The difference is scale and pay. Miner ganking was supposed to be small scale ganking, something solo/small groups of people could do, while freighter ganking is large scale; the same comparison works for pay. The problem that occurred is that ccp somewhere decided they don't value pvp minded players hence the focus on highsec buffs. So I'm not an expert on ganking but it seems like it takes what around 20 catalysts to kill a freighter? So comparing tanks it seems it should take maybe what like 5 to kill a skiff? Sounds small enough scale to me. And seriously how many mining vessels are there to choose from? (seriously, i don't feel like counting), and there is what this one that can actually be tanked well enough to be safer? The fit is dependent upon the number of people participating, the less participating the more expensive the gank. Min/max this and you get 40 t1 catalysts for a freighter. Solo/small scale is subjective aside from the solo part. <=3 is in the range. After the changes all of them can be tanked sufficiently but, the age old problem is no one is ever willing to give up yield to do it. Well I was just going off KB, which there were plenty of ganks of freighters with 19-22 Catalysts, which seemed largely T2 fit. So based on the damage done, and then looking at the average damage done to a skiff, seems like 5 should do it. So there are plenty of miners that can be easily soloed in a single catalyst. Some that probably need 2-3, and one that might take 5. Seems like there is plenty for the small gank to choose from.
La Nariz GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 3068	Posted - 2014.11.17 19:51:26 - [59] - Quote Derath Ellecon wrote: La Nariz wrote: Derath Ellecon wrote: La Nariz wrote: Derath Ellecon wrote: I'm confused. There are plenty of groups, many posting in this thread that are able to drop Freighters, often empty without trouble. Certainly those same groups could tear up some skiffs without trouble. The difference is scale and pay. Miner ganking was supposed to be small scale ganking, something solo/small groups of people could do, while freighter ganking is large scale; the same comparison works for pay. The problem that occurred is that ccp somewhere decided they don't value pvp minded players hence the focus on highsec buffs. So I'm not an expert on ganking but it seems like it takes what around 20 catalysts to kill a freighter? So comparing tanks it seems it should take maybe what like 5 to kill a skiff? Sounds small enough scale to me. And seriously how many mining vessels are there to choose from? (seriously, i don't feel like counting), and there is what this one that can actually be tanked well enough to be safer? The fit is dependent upon the number of people participating, the less participating the more expensive the gank. Min/max this and you get 40 t1 catalysts for a freighter. Solo/small scale is subjective aside from the solo part. <=3 is in the range. After the changes all of them can be tanked sufficiently but, the age old problem is no one is ever willing to give up yield to do it. Well I was just going off KB, which there were plenty of ganks of freighters with 19-22 Catalysts, which seemed largely T2 fit. So based on the damage done, and then looking at the average damage done to a skiff, seems like 5 should do it. So there are plenty of miners that can be easily soloed in a single catalyst. Some that probably need 2-3, and one that might take 5. Seems like there is plenty for the small gank to choose from. Seems like is quite a stretch to reality. This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
Jur Tissant The TERRA Guardians of Serenity 320	Posted - 2014.11.17 20:24:27 - [60] - Quote Are you suggesting that you should be able to suicide gank a Skiff with a single destroyer/cruiser? The Skiff should be a tough nut for small ships to crack even in low/null. It should be nigh impossible to beat with anything short of a gank-fit BC/BS in high-sec. That's the whole point - safety at the expense of a respectable price tag and mining yield. If you want to take down a Skiff, bring a bunch of friends.

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