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Kaarous Aldurald Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance 10666	Posted - 2014.11.19 15:39:43 - [61] - Quote Robert Caldera wrote: baltec1 wrote: Not really. It makes wardecs more or less useless. no, they arent useless if you wardec people who in fact play HS wars and will return fire. Without wardecs noone could be doing wars in HS. And the people who won't return fire, who won't play during the war... They either belong in an NPC corp, or not playing EVE at all. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs.
Robert Caldera Caldera Trading and Investment 784	Posted - 2014.11.19 15:45:48 - [62] - Quote baltec1 wrote: They are and you know it, we all know it. If you want to hit a rivals assets then your better off just ganking them. wardecs arent useless for the reason I mentioned above. Yet they are ineffective if you want to harass people who doesnt play your style and know how to dodge a wardec - however thats absolutely fine, because eve is not exclusively about combat pvp, you know it better. Kaarous Aldurald wrote: And the people who won't return fire, who won't play during the war... They either belong in an NPC corp, or not playing EVE at all. you shouldnt wardec them to start with as you know they wont play with you anyways. This is the reason why I left HS in first 2 months of my eve carreer for the mere purpose of pvp, compared to you who still sit there and cry a river about how hard griefing miners and mission runners in HS is.
baltec1 Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 13955	Posted - 2014.11.19 15:48:29 - [63] - Quote Robert Caldera wrote: baltec1 wrote: They are and you know it, we all know it. If you want to hit a rivals assets then your better off just ganking them. wardecs arent useless for the reason I mentioned above. Yet they are ineffective if you want to harass people who doesnt play your style and know how to dodge a wardec - however thats absolutely fine, because eve is not exclusively about combat pvp, you know it better. Hence why I say they are useless, they are so easy to avoid and you can do it without spending a penny. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
Kaarous Aldurald Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance 10666	Posted - 2014.11.19 15:51:02 - [64] - Quote Robert Caldera wrote: you shouldnt wardec them to start with as you know they wont play with you anyways. They shouldn't be in player corps to start with if they don't want to play with others. There already is a place for them, that place is NPC corps. Quote: This is the reason why I left HS in first 2 months of my eve carreer for the mere purpose of pvp, compared to you who still sit there and cry a river about how hard griefing miners and mission runners in HS is. PvP does not just belong in low and null. EVE is a PvP game, and PvP belongs everywhere. That includes highsec. If people don't want to deal with wars, then they belong in NPC corps. Simple as that. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs.
Robert Caldera Caldera Trading and Investment 784	Posted - 2014.11.19 15:51:16 - [65] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Hence why I say they are useless, they are so easy to avoid and you can do it without spending a penny. they arent useless for the reason I told already. Without wardec there would be absolutely no way to make war in HS. You just need a bit of talent of picking proper corps for HS wars who wouldnt dodge.
baltec1 Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 13955	Posted - 2014.11.19 15:54:00 - [66] - Quote Robert Caldera wrote: they arent useless for the reason I told already. Without wardec there would be absolutely no way to make war in HS. You just need a bit of talent of picking proper corps for HS wars who wouldnt dodge. People dont put strategic assets in corps that stick around for war decs. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
Robert Caldera Caldera Trading and Investment 784	Posted - 2014.11.19 15:54:05 - [67] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: They shouldn't be in player corps to start with if they don't want to play with others. oh well, they play with others but not the way you want. Kaarous Aldurald wrote: There already is a place for them, that place is NPC corps. and yes, they go into NPC corps, once you try to force them to your playstyle. Kaarous Aldurald wrote: PvP does not just belong in low and null. EVE is a PvP game, and PvP belongs everywhere. That includes highsec. pvp is not just combat. its also industry, mining, trading etc. Are you a noob that you dont know this basics? Kaarous Aldurald wrote: If people don't want to deal with wars, then they belong in NPC corps. Simple as that. exactly what they are doing for the duration of wardec.
Robert Caldera Caldera Trading and Investment 784	Posted - 2014.11.19 15:56:32 - [68] - Quote baltec1 wrote: People dont put strategic assets in corps that stick around for war decs. so? What is this argument about?
baltec1 Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 13955	Posted - 2014.11.19 15:59:16 - [69] - Quote Robert Caldera wrote: baltec1 wrote: People dont put strategic assets in corps that stick around for war decs. so? What is this argument about? Lets say GIA find out the corp that supplies NC. with their ships in a deployment zone. We cant wardec it as they would just skip to another corp the moment the war dec lands and continue as normal. This is why war decs are useless. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
Kaarous Aldurald Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance 10666	Posted - 2014.11.19 16:00:11 - [70] - Quote Robert Caldera wrote: and yes, they go into NPC corps, once you try to force them to your playstyle. It's not "my playstyle", it's the bar for player corps. If you can't or won't meet that bar, the NPC corps are always recruiting. People playing games with the corp creation mechanics is not the intended gameplay, it's as simple as that. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs.

Robert Caldera Caldera Trading and Investment 784	Posted - 2014.11.19 16:08:51 - [71] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Lets say GIA find out the corp that supplies NC. with their ships in a deployment zone. We cant wardec it as they would just skip to another corp the moment the war dec lands and continue as normal. This is why war decs are useless. oh well yes, for your specific purpose wardecs might be useless, thats it. deal with it. suicide their freighters as your alliance used to, worked fine so long. No reason to nerf everyone else. Kaarous Aldurald wrote: It's not "my playstyle", it's the bar for player corps. no its not. HS and Eve is not just about combat pvp. Really not. Learn Eve buddy. Kaarous Aldurald wrote: People playing games with the corp creation mechanics is not the intended gameplay, it's as simple as that. its intended play as long as CCP wont disagree, simple as that.
baltec1 Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 13955	Posted - 2014.11.19 16:15:03 - [72] - Quote Robert Caldera wrote: oh well yes, for your specific purpose wardecs might be useless, thats it. deal with it. suicide their freighters as your alliance used to, worked fine so long. No reason to nerf everyone else. So we should be forced to play the game the way they want? See, that sorry argument works both ways. Outside of a few specific purposes war decs arnt worth the isk you spend on them. People are forever complaining about us ganking ships for no profit but we are not being given any other options here. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
Robert Caldera Caldera Trading and Investment 784	Posted - 2014.11.19 16:21:14 - [73] - Quote baltec1 wrote: So we should be forced to play the game the way they want? See, that sorry argument works both ways. Outside of a few specific purposes war decs arnt worth the isk you spend on them. People are forever complaining about us ganking ships for no profit but we are not being given any other options here. indeed. wardecs dont suit your purpose, they help same way for you like for your foe - both ways. As if GSF wouldnt employ neutral logistic corporations within HS or NPC alts. What do you think your logi guys would feel about undodgeable wardecs for HS? Generally they are still far from useless for people who (want to) wardec each other and have fun in HS, which was your original statement.
Kaarous Aldurald Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance 10666	Posted - 2014.11.19 16:23:18 - [74] - Quote Robert Caldera wrote: its intended play as long as CCP wont disagree, simple as that. Please find me a dev quote saying that playing leapfrog with corp creation mechanics is the intended method to get rid of wardecs. Because from having read the dev blog, it sure looks like the intended method is the surrender mechanic. Which would make dec dodging a textbook exploit. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs.
baltec1 Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 13955	Posted - 2014.11.19 16:25:10 - [75] - Quote Robert Caldera wrote: baltec1 wrote: So we should be forced to play the game the way they want? See, that sorry argument works both ways. Outside of a few specific purposes war decs arnt worth the isk you spend on them. People are forever complaining about us ganking ships for no profit but we are not being given any other options here. indeed. wardecs dont suit your purpose, they help same way for you like for your foe - both ways. As if GSF wouldnt employ neutral logistic corporations within HS or NPC alts. Generally they are still far from useless for people who (want to) wardec each other and have fun in HS. So why should people be able to avoid having their assets like this? Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
Robert Caldera Caldera Trading and Investment 787	Posted - 2014.11.19 16:27:25 - [76] - Quote baltec1 wrote: So why should people be able to avoid having their assets like this? why should they not? You gave a special case of 0.0 alliance logistics as argument, which are in fact just a small subset of all HS players; what you asking for is a nerf of whole HS population just to cather your needs to interrupt 0.0 logistics? Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Please find me a dev quote saying that playing leapfrog with corp creation mechanics is the intended method to get rid of wardecs. Because from having read the dev blog, it sure looks like the intended method is the surrender mechanic. Which would make dec dodging a textbook exploit. I dont need a dev quote, the existing 10 years old mechanics confirm my stance. If you think players are exploiting loopholes in game mechanics petition them, CCP usually punishes such behavior with (perma)bans.
Kaarous Aldurald Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance 10666	Posted - 2014.11.19 16:29:41 - [77] - Quote Robert Caldera wrote: what you asking for is a nerf of whole HS population just to cather your needs to interrupt 0.0 logistics? No, what we are asking for is for a broken mechanic to be fixed. For a meaningless mechanic to be given meaning. If closing an exploit nerfs the "whole HS population", that's their fault for using the exploit instead of playing the game correctly. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs.
Komi Toran Paragon Trust The Bastion 383	Posted - 2014.11.19 16:30:39 - [78] - Quote Helios Panala wrote: They would have over 1000 systems to hide it in. Let's stop right there. If it's true that a corporation can drop this anywhere in high-sec and the target corp doesn't get an idea of where it is, then it defeats the purpose as it's impractical for moderate-sized corps to survey the known universe every time they get wardecced.
Robert Caldera Caldera Trading and Investment 787	Posted - 2014.11.19 16:33:06 - [79] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: No, what we are asking for is for a broken mechanic to be fixed. For a meaningless mechanic to be given meaning. wardecs have a meaning, like I pointed out multiple times in this thread so stop reiterating on a wrong statement, it wont become true. If you want to pew pew people in HS, you will need to find same of your kind. Kaarous Aldurald wrote: If closing an exploit nerfs the "whole HS population", that's their fault for using the exploit instead of playing the game correctly. there is no exploit, just regular gameplay by rules CCP set up for 10 years already.
Kaarous Aldurald Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance 10666	Posted - 2014.11.19 16:36:35 - [80] - Quote Robert Caldera wrote: wardecs have a meaning Consensual PvP sure isn't part of that meaning, no matter what carebears tell themselves to justify their risk aversion. Quote: there is no exploit, just regular gameplay by rules CCP set up for 10 years already. Well, that shows what you know about it. It's nowhere close to ten years old. Do you even bother learning about what you're talking about, or just spew carebear talking points? "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs.

Black Pedro Yammerschooner 200	Posted - 2014.11.19 16:37:21 - [81] - Quote Robert Caldera wrote: I love it when high sec squatters calling out other high sec squatters for being carebears :D Go low, WH or 0.0 there you'll receive lots of pew pew. You are amongst those people hiding under free protection of CONCORD, or what exactly is the reason you live in HS? Friend, highsec mechanics make me a criminal and I am thus exempt from the protections offered by CONCORD. Highsec is lowsec to me at all times - worse in fact with that pesky facpo always after me. I live in highsec to enforce the risk vs. reward design of the game. It is my raison d'etre. Risk is suppose to exist everywhere in New Eden including highsec and I enjoy providing it. Why? Sandbox. This is really off-topic now so in an attempt to get this back on topic: Tora's suggestion is an interesting one I support, but wardecs are too easily dodged now to the point where they have failed to reach the goal of supporting vibrant highsec PvP and nurturing the profession of "mercenary" envisioned by the game designers (as described in the dev blog). But the current system of increased cost for the wardeccing of larger corps seems punitive to smaller corps. Do see any issue changing it as Tora proposes?
Helios Panala 2	Posted - 2014.11.19 16:52:18 - [82] - Quote Komi Toran wrote: Helios Panala wrote: They would have over 1000 systems to hide it in. Let's stop right there. If it's true that a corporation can drop this anywhere in high-sec and the target corp doesn't get an idea of where it is, then it defeats the purpose as it's impractical for moderate-sized corps to survey the known universe every time they get wardecced. It's only a rough idea, however I did suggest that the defenders should be able to set up their own device to slowly narrow down the attackers POS location. Rough time frame of maybe 24hr after the war goes live it tells you the region, 24h later the Constellation, then 3 possible systems, then the system, then the planet, then the exact moon. Attackers would of course be free to assault the defender POS and kill the device just as defenders would be free to assault the wardeccers POS to end the war. Essentially it gives HS miners and mission runners the (possibly delusional) hope that they can win a war on their own terms and therefore gives them some impetus to stay in corp and log in. It gives both sides some bait to try and draw the other into fighting, kill the command facility of the attacker or the triangulation device of the defender. Also due to reasonably long triangulation time corps that just enjoy throwing out decs and camping trade hubs still get almost the full week of doing it. If they're worried they can't defend the POS they can just take it all down to automatically surrender. EDIT: This is off topic anyway, the OP suggestion is not quite enough in my opinion but it a good suggestion all the same.
Robert Caldera Caldera Trading and Investment 788	Posted - 2014.11.19 16:52:50 - [83] - Quote Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Consensual PvP sure isn't part of that meaning, no matter what carebears tell themselves to justify their risk aversion. pvp is unconsensual, thats true. You always can agress, kill ships in HS even without wardec. What you are talking about are war declarations against player corporations, people can freely join or leave as they feel - which exactly reflects the principles of consensual pvp, depending of what price you are willing to pay pvp can be seen as consensual or non-consensual. Kaarous Aldurald wrote: Well, that shows what you know about it. It's nowhere close to ten years old. Do you even bother learning about what you're talking about, or just spew carebear talking points? well then tell me when CCP introduced mechanics preventing random HS folks being agressed by other people freely. Black Pedro wrote: I live in highsec to enforce the risk vs. reward design of the game. It is my raison d'etre. Risk is suppose to exist everywhere in New Eden including highsec and I enjoy providing it. Why? Sandbox. game is woking fine for you apparently. Black Pedro wrote: This is really off-topic now so in an attempt to get this back on topic: Tora's suggestion is an interesting one I support, but wardecs are too easily dodged now to the point where they have failed to reach the goal of supporting vibrant highsec PvP and nurturing the profession of "mercenary" envisioned by the game designers (as described in the dev blog). But the current system of increased cost for the wardeccing of larger corps seems punitive to smaller corps. Do see any issue changing it as Tora proposes? I spawned my discussion to one of the later replies to original suggestion not the topic starter himself. I have no strict opinion about original topic.
baltec1 Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 13955	Posted - 2014.11.19 17:02:35 - [84] - Quote Robert Caldera wrote: baltec1 wrote: So why should people be able to avoid having their assets like this? why should they not? You gave a special case of 0.0 alliance logistics as argument, which are in fact just a small subset of all HS players; what you asking for is a nerf of whole HS population just to cather your needs to interrupt 0.0 logistics? Thats not a special case, a special case is two corps going to war willingly with each other for "gudfights". What I am asking for is some sort of level playing field Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
Robert Caldera Caldera Trading and Investment 788	Posted - 2014.11.19 17:06:22 - [85] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Thats not a special case, a special case is two corps going to war willingly with each other for "gudfights". What I am asking for is some sort of level playing field regardless of how much I would love undodgeable wardecs against GSF logistics corps, freighters passing HS (not even living there) from Jita to northern 0.0 really are a special case and a small subset of HS population.
baltec1 Bat Country Goonswarm Federation 13955	Posted - 2014.11.19 17:08:35 - [86] - Quote Robert Caldera wrote: regardless of how much I would love undodgeable wardecs against GSF logistics corps, 0.0 freighters passing HS (not even living there) from Jita to northern 0.0 really are a special case and a small subset of HS population. Attacking other peoples assets however is not a small subset. As it stands war decs heavily favor the defender. Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
Black Pedro Yammerschooner 200	Posted - 2014.11.19 17:13:16 - [87] - Quote Robert Caldera wrote: Black Pedro wrote: I live in highsec to enforce the risk vs. reward design of the game. It is my raison d'etre. Risk is suppose to exist everywhere in New Eden including highsec and I enjoy providing it. Why? Sandbox. game is woking fine for you apparently. Indeed it is. But since this is the F&I subforum I am sharing my "ideas" of what "features" could be added or changed in the game to make it better. I think that wardecs have not lived up to the design intent of the dev blog. Making dec-dodging an exploit again (like it was for the most of the history of Eve), and changing the fee structure as Tora suggested would improve things.
Robert Caldera Caldera Trading and Investment 789	Posted - 2014.11.19 17:28:59 - [88] - Quote baltec1 wrote: Attacking other peoples assets however is not a small subset. you can attack other people assets, anywhere. in any but HS without any wardec even, in HS you can suicide gank dodgers according to HS game rules. baltec1 wrote: As it stands war decs heavily favor the defender. yeah Black Pedro wrote: I think that wardecs have not lived up to the design intent of the dev blog. Making dec-dodging an exploit again (like it was for the most of the history of Eve), and changing the fee structure as Tora suggested would improve things. oh I can hardly tell whether they lived up to, devblog was specifically about HS towers and war shielding and shedding, which isnt working anymore for what I know, so how can you tell the change has failed? Yes, individuals can still dodge but you wont be able to force them giving you easy killmails anyways, they'll more likely stop playing eve for the period of vulnerability or even complete quit the game, which cant be CCP's intention or whose ever.
Corraidhin Farsaidh Farsaidh's Freeborn 777	Posted - 2014.11.19 17:35:36 - [89] - Quote The problem i see is that the people who will dec-dodge have no interest in pvp and will use any valid means to avoid wardecs. This is akin to bumping where you gain advantage without going suspect. Valid mechanic that infuriates some and helps others. Before a corp wardecs they should determine whether it is worth it in their assessment of of the target corp. If they won't fight thendon't waste your time unless you have some reason to disrupt them by forcing them into an npc corp. What if a corp decides upon wsrdec that they won't play your game and fly cloaked to hop through WH's? Is that a problem too as this equally effectively avoids the wardec. A couple of losec wWH jumps can send players a long way away if they so choose...
Kaarous Aldurald Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance 10666	Posted - 2014.11.19 17:53:20 - [90] - Quote Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: What if a corp decides upon wsrdec that they won't play your game and fly cloaked to hop through WH's? Is that a problem too as this equally effectively avoids the wardec. A couple of losec wWH jumps can send players a long way away if they so choose... Those are active evasion methods, they don't just involve pressing a few buttons and freely bypassing the surrender mechanic. Surely the difference is obvious. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws." One of ours, ten of theirs.



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