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Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.08.30 21:48:00 - [31] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 30/08/2006 21:48:47 No, it makes instas no less NECESSARY. It just means new players without the instas can't be accepted to the corp. Copying takes too long. It means that joining the game is not pretty pointless, there's no long term viability...it's a MASSIVE nerf. CCP need to fix BM's properly. This patch should NOT go in with this nerf in place. Less lag by less players == BAD idea. //Maya
Tristan Acoma Caldari The Eleventh Commandment	Posted - 2006.08.30 22:00:00 - [32] Originally by: Maya Rkell It just means new players without the instas can't be accepted to the corp. Indeed - I've already seen several low sec corps making this policy........ more often than not though the better corps simply have them all in a sec can in their hanger. New players can join, they just have to copy a bookmark set as an initiation now.... Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty - Cortes
JabJabVVV The Four Aces Maelstrom Alliance	Posted - 2006.08.30 22:27:00 - [33] Imagine a situation, if you will, where your station in 0.0 is under attack by an overwhelming force. You cannot fight the enemy head on, you are getting desperate, what can you do? *IDEA* You just set 500 bookmarks copying and go and make some tea safe in the knowledge that you, and your corp mates doing the same thing, are helping to lag out the system and cause the attacking fleet no end of problems due to innability to activate modules, crashes to desk top etc (general lag issues basically) so your snipers and POS's can happily go about making mincemeat of this apparently invincible force and the station stays yours.. all thanks to those 500 bookmarks that you set copying. Now who would be low enough to use these sort of game breaking tactics? you may ask. However people have been accused of doing it and by the response of CCP I would guess that there is some truth in the accusations. So you see, limiting the number of bookmarks that can be copied to 5 at a time reduces server load caused by people mass copying bookmarks and makes everyone happier because their eve is running more smoothly. In addition I cannot see why it will cause bookmarks longer to copy it will just mean you have to actually be there while you copy them, is that such a bad thing? (granted you'll spend a couple of minutes dragging and dropping but that isn't exactly a vast amount of time) No, it will not make instas any less necessary but then again I don't think anyone has claimed that this is anything to do with a solution to instas. However it shouldn't preclude new players from joining a corp; it'll just mean that copying BM's will be a bit more of an issue. If you feel that actually being at your computer while copying a regional set is too much to ask then split the responsability up among the entire corp, you copy instas begining 1-c, you do d-l etc. While I will reserve judgement on some items addressed in this patch (cov ops for example) I think the BM thing, while not a fix, should be a good change.
Siege Minmatar Siegecraft Bounty Hunting	Posted - 2006.08.30 23:16:00 - [34] I totally agree with this fix. So, it's going to take more time to copy bookmarks. One fact that has been addressed in the recent blogs is that bookmarks, and the massive copy-parties, are a significant contribution to the lag issue throughout the whole Tranquility server. That, and it has also been a big contributor to crashing nodes and cascading into a full server shutdown. Oh, and it also contributes to the CPU useage spikes that have been causing all the lines at jump gates lately. None of these are things that the players like. IF it makes the game more stable and reduces lag, as they hope it does, then I think it's a fair tradeoff. They are, hopefully, fixing three of the biggest current problems in the game by doing this.
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.08.30 23:32:00 - [35] JabJabVVV, them REMOVE the ability to copy on lagged nodes. Period. Won't happen. THAT is a fix for that. No, this is a plain nerf to newer players. "However it shouldn't preclude new players from joining a corp" Yes, it will. Yes, it allready HAS. "If you feel that actually being at your computer while copying a regional set is too much to ask then split the responsability up among the entire corp, you copy instas begining 1-c,... " Let's try that again: "If you feel that spending 4 days of your time copying a BM set rather than just 1 day is too much to ask, then do the BM's in a way which will just end up with messed up instas and is not an soloution". it's not a fix, it's a plain nerf and a plain WALL for new players. They're not getting in. Siege, "That, and it has also been a big contributor to crashing nodes and cascading into a full server shutdown" No, that is NOT what was said. A fair tradeoff by canabalising the entire future of the game is not a fix, and it will do very very little to stablise the game except by making people quit. //Maya
El Berto Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2006.08.30 23:40:00 - [36] Originally by: JabJabVVV Imagine a situation, if you will, where your station in 0.0 is under attack by an overwhelming force. You cannot fight the enemy head on, you are getting desperate, what can you do? *IDEA* You just set 500 bookmarks copying and go and make some tea safe in the knowledge that you, and your corp mates doing the same thing, are helping to lag out the system and cause the attacking fleet no end of problems due to innability to activate modules, crashes to desk top etc (general lag issues basically) so your snipers and POS's can happily go about making mincemeat of this apparently invincible force and the station stays yours.. all thanks to those 500 bookmarks that you set copying. Now who would be low enough to use these sort of game breaking tactics?... True and its a right pain in the arse, but this is also true and I think it takes precidence(sp); Originally by: Maya Rkell Edited by: Maya Rkell on 30/08/2006 21:48:47 No, it makes instas no less NECESSARY. It just means new players without the instas can't be accepted to the corp. Copying takes too long. It means that joining the game is not pretty pointless, there's no long term viability...it's a MASSIVE nerf. CCP need to fix BM's properly. This patch should NOT go in with this nerf in place. Less lag by less players == BAD idea. CCP need to fix this and fix it quick. My suggestion is here I think it would keep the game balanced and it uses existing game mechanics. They need to nerf this tactic without penalising new players.
Siege Minmatar Siegecraft Bounty Hunting	Posted - 2006.08.31 01:55:00 - [37] Edited by: Siege on 31/08/2006 01:58:55 Edited by: Siege on 31/08/2006 01:55:58 Originally by: Maya Rkell Siege, "That, and it has also been a big contributor to crashing nodes and cascading into a full server shutdown" No, that is NOT what was said. A fair tradeoff by canabalising the entire future of the game is not a fix, and it will do very very little to stablise the game except by making people quit. Actually, that is exactly what Oveur said. Here is the exact quote from his dev blog. (Italics added by me) Originally by: Oveur in todays dev blog regarding gate queues. The reason this was set in was to prevent solar systems from overloading and getting players stuck. This was especially dangerous with the large solar systems, because when these nodes with the high load solar system died, they would start a chain reaction that would eventually take the whole cluster down. But, this is not without its drawbacks. Even though we're seeing systems like Jita only running at 55%-75% CPU - even on Sundays - after the Dragon patch, we still had abnormal behavior which brought spiked CPU usage up and thus caused jump queueing. You see, after Dragon, the codebase is much more stable, using far less CPU and we have a more clear picture of what is causing a lot of load spikes. Call it a good signal-to-noise ratio. It probably won't surprise you, but Bookmarks is pretty high on the list, so high in fact that we will be putting in even more drastic limitations to bookmarks. Until we of course implement the replacement for the gameplay which bookmarks introduced. What's in the coming patch is simply to address the load associated with copying large amounts of them. More on that in another blog which is on the way. Also notice that he basically said they are still planning on removing instas at some point as well.
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.08.31 01:59:00 - [38] Siege, "Bookmarks is pretty high on the list" This is NOT, surprisingly enough: "it has also been a big contributor to crashing nodes and cascading into a full server shutdown" There is NO evidence it is involved in crashing and cascades, only lagspikes per Oveur. You're reaching - the database issues are the source of the crashes, most especially the overload on one of the RAMSAN's, per the devs. //Maya
Siege Minmatar Siegecraft Bounty Hunting	Posted - 2006.08.31 02:15:00 - [39] Edited by: Siege on 31/08/2006 02:15:32 I'm just following the logic as given to me by the few 'offical' statements on the issue. We may not have evidence about bookmarks being the issue that is causing lag spikes, or overflows of the database system, but I am pretty sure that CCP does if they are making this change using their reason for it. Copying bookmarks is 'pretty high on the list' of issues causing load spikes.... CPU usage over 95% turns on the gate queuing system.... "The reason this was set in was to prevent solar systems from overloading and getting players stuck. This was especially dangerous with the large solar systems, because when these nodes with the high load solar system died, they would start a chain reaction that would eventually take the whole cluster down...." "What's in the coming patch is simply to address the load associated with copying large amounts of them." But its really all a moot point anyways. We may not know exactly what CCP is working on, but it's pretty ominous by that last sentance from Oveur in my last post that sometime in the future bookmarks will no longer be able to function as insta-jumps anymore. But until we know exactly what they are planning, we don't know what the effect will be. However, I am pretty sure it will increase the amount of PvP combat and not reduce it.
Maya Rkell Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.08.31 02:21:00 - [40] Edited by: Maya Rkell on 31/08/2006 02:21:01 "The reason this was set in was to prevent solar systems from overloading and getting players stuck" Except people in these systems allready have ZERO lag, in some cases. Issue! Further, what gets solar systems jammed up? Database issues! RAMSAN overload, NOT BM's, which per what CCP said cause lagspikes. "sometime in the future bookmarks will no longer be able to function as insta-jumps anymore" Again, you're reaching. They've said a "further nerf". That could mean anything, and we don't know WHEN it will be. Or what the "proper fix" will be. I do know that CCP needs to do it next week, however. "However, I am pretty sure it will increase the amount of PvP combat and not reduce it." Like getting half your fleet unable to enter an unlagged system and losing most of the rest increases PvP? Yea, RIGHT. Your blind optimism...is just that. CCP have failed repeatedly to predict the actions of the PvP playerbase. //Maya
Audrea Widowmakers Novus Ordos Seclorum	Posted - 2006.08.31 02:43:00 - [41] Indeed, if I were to accept new memebrs, there is no way i would accept members who cant take care of the sets for themself. The more people who confirm this, the better chance CCP realize what they are doing with this 'nerf' to BM, and do it properly. ------------------ Tired of fleet combat lag? -Post HERE All posts are my personal opinions.
Siege Minmatar Siegecraft Bounty Hunting	Posted - 2006.08.31 03:04:00 - [42] I'm not blindly optimistic, I know that this will change a lot of how the game is played for larger alliances. But I've also seen a LOT bigger changes to the game than this, and I've seen a lot more good changes than bad. Short term people won't like it, but long term they will adapt and move on. Tactics and strategies will change, and people will learn new ways to survive. Kinda like when they changed how jump in points were changed, moved better asteroids to non-empire, and made AB/MWD's un-stackable. Heck, for a while you could evemail bookmarks too, and people screamed about that when it happened. And I've also seen a lot of people survive quite well in 0.0 space, that obviously don't have instas. Sure, you won't be doing whole regions at a time for bookmark copying, but you will still see it being done for smaller areas. And the more useful ones will still be able to get copied. And I may be wrong, but I always though that bookmarks were part of the database system, and each one that you copied existed as an unique item. I'll have to look back on that one.
Sergeant Spot Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.08.31 03:18:00 - [43] I am one of the most serious, hardcore Bookmark makers in Eve. Some make more, but no one beats my quality. I have a lot of work tied up in BMs I take pride in my BMs and their quality Part of my value to my my Corp and Alliance is the quality of my BM work. But even with all that, I'll not lose a lot of sleep over Insta BMs ceasing to be part of the game. "If" BMs have to go, I like the old idea that TWD posted. My biggest regrets if BMs have to go are two fold: 1. It was something valuable a noob could do. Thats how I got started with it. Long ago I was a RAW noob in a corp of veteran players, yet I had respect and value due to the quality of my BM work. 2. BMs are the closest thing in Eve to some vital types of military recon. Many folks think of military recon as "where is the enemy?". That question is only a TINY part of recon. Months before a regular soldier gets with a 100 miles of a battlefield, there is probably recon going on that asks questions like "what are the road conditions like here for moving tanks quickly?" or "If we drive a 100 tracked vehicles through this field, will it turn into a sea of deep mud, or remain reasonably solid ground?". Insta jump BMing is the closest Eve gets to that type of Recon. Depth ftw. snip This type of comment has no place in a signature, please remain courteous - Pirlouit
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.08.31 03:19:00 - [44] Here's an utterly CRAZY IDEA: Learn to make your own goddamn bookmarks.
Audrea Widowmakers Novus Ordos Seclorum	Posted - 2006.08.31 03:33:00 - [45] Originally by: Malthros Zenobia Here's an utterly CRAZY IDEA: Learn to make your own goddamn bookmarks. What does that have to do with new players? are you suggesting they will start making new bookmarks for entire regions? lol, this nerf will hit new players hardest, their 0.0 experience will be a lot less pleasant Other than that, only way to make bookmarks in hostile 0.0 space is covert ops, which again who do you think can fly? -Not new players Add in the cost of the covert ops cloaking device, even if you have the money for it, you will have hard time finding one :P ------------------ Tired of fleet combat lag? -Post HERE All posts are my personal opinions.
Shugo Kazuma	Posted - 2006.08.31 06:04:00 - [46] You know, I hope it doesn't become a trend to "remove functionality" before a solution is coded. I mean, we just had virtually every courier mission, as well as the new player tutorial removed. While a replacement is in the works, it's not known when it will be implemented. Now we have this. Courier mission removal is already a fairly devastating hit to new players (come on, 1 million dollar implant is no joke in terms of spending money for someone less than a week old. That's essetially their first decent tier 3 frigate with fittings and enough to affoard a loss). Now we have this, which arguably hurts newer players more than older established ones. A solution may be in the works, but like the courier missions, who knows when and if it will be implemented. If they are reaching critical mass in terms of resources, and BM copying takes up a "significant", and I mean, large amounts at all times of resources, I can see a reduction may be in order (more reasonably would be 20 at a time really...), but 5 seems a bit steep if there's no viable solution to the root of the problem within the next week or so. Hitting on new players like this seems to me like a very bad idea. I'm sure some people feel like they're being singled out by joining on right now with the recent "fixes" that are comming out.
Audrea Widowmakers Novus Ordos Seclorum	Posted - 2006.08.31 06:47:00 - [47] I addition, copying 5 at a time is nearly impossible, and will benefit those with exceptional memory, as they will remember where they stopped. The limit, if at all - should be 20-30 each chunk, so we can copy one letter of the set, and not half the letter, and not knowing where we stopped. ------------------ Tired of fleet combat lag? -Post HERE All posts are my personal opinions.
FFGR Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.08.31 07:43:00 - [48] Originally by: Audrea I addition, copying 5 at a time is nearly impossible, and will benefit those with exceptional memory, as they will remember where they stopped. The limit, if at all - should be 20-30 each chunk, so we can copy one letter of the set, and not half the letter, and not knowing where we stopped. huh ? I have the memory of a goldfish, but I do large BM sets perfectly ... Just keep your eye on top of the BM that needs to be copied, after you draw them, click on it once and wait for the first set to copy. Other option is to sort the BMs and continue copying after the last BM you made. _____________________________ siggys v. 0.5
BurnHard	Posted - 2006.08.31 08:10:00 - [49] To the OP, all I can say is you are part of the problem with instas so stfu. I make all my own BM's and have a limited collection of "must have" routes. Thanks to "region sales", these important tools are set for a nerf.
Magnus Thermopyle Chosen Path Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.08.31 08:18:00 - [50] I wonder if CCP really has thought this through? For example, a new requirement to join a corp will be that you already have the needed BMs. And on a more personal issue: we just joined a new alliance, and I need to copy a bunch of regions. Am I supposed to spend weeks doing nothing in EVE except copying 5 BMs at a time? Or should I consider the 0.0 regions that the alliance claims a no-go land?
Rikkard Strofeldt Gallente SniggWaffe	Posted - 2006.08.31 08:34:00 - [51] Most of my BMs are hand made. Mostly pipe instas, with a few run-around instas in Placid. I have a few (20?) that I got from a corp mate, which he made to let us easily harrass our nearby alliance bangers. BM nerf? Big deal -- Descending into madness.
Cheyenne Shadowborn Caldari Citizens of E.A.R.T.H. E.A.R.T.H. Federation	Posted - 2006.08.31 15:29:00 - [52] Edited by: Cheyenne Shadowborn on 31/08/2006 15:32:11 Edited by: Cheyenne Shadowborn on 31/08/2006 15:29:55 Originally by: Durethia why don't they just allow the BMs to be stored locally on the computer? [...] Because if done right, a (R)DBMS will beat the performance of a file system for small structured data any day, especially NTFS (exception: possibly ReiserFS but thats not the issue) Originally by: Durethia It would also allow copying them to be extremly fast... as you could zip up a portion of your BMs and wisk them through the email system to your buddies. CCP would probably not want that. They repeatedly stated market should mostly be in-game, and bookmark transfers are (mostly) done for cash. Originally by: Durethia I thought for sure that's where they were... but apparently, they are actually on the servers. Yes. Unlike the FOLDERS, which must qualify as the worst design decision ever. Originally by: Durethia I'm sorry CCP, but such peaces of data should be client side. Nope. Both BMs and BM folders should be on a server. Much of the neatness of MMPRPGs actually is that I don't have to care about backups, corrupted character data, or transferring my bookmarks manually to my 2nd or 3rd computer. Originally by: Durethia coordinates wrapped in a SSH encryption SSH encryption (that is, the algorythms used in it), unless my lazyness to google will hunt me down now, are usually symmetric encryption. Nevertheless, what happens if the private key gets compromized? CCP invalidates all bookmarks over night? Nah. Leave BMs on server, and get rid of the entire reduculous insta business which is nothing more but an exploit arround CCPs "15km warp", introduced so that ship speed would matter when traveling, by making 15 km arround the gate a warp-free zone. Then strengthen haulers and barges tanking and possibly weapons to account for this. My $0.02 --
Khes	Posted - 2006.08.31 15:38:00 - [53] I havnt tried it myself yet, but perhaps this means that, yes you can only copy 5 BMs at the time but they are copyed much faster. So even if you have to be more active when copying, the overall time for copying many BMs is shorter now then before?
Xaen Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2006.08.31 19:12:00 - [54] Originally by: Siege Also notice that he basically said they are still planning on removing instas at some point as well. No, I didn't noticed, because he didn't say it. What he said was Quote: Until we of course implement the replacement for the gameplay which bookmarks introduced. I bet you'll still be able to use them, but they won't be as good as whatever they're being replaced with. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Theists should not try to use logic to prove their gods exist; it makes as much sense as spiders playing with matches.
Sean Dillon Caldari Shadows of the Dead Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2006.08.31 19:22:00 - [55] This is just stupid, people new to a region can kiss there sorry ass for people who have been there for alot longer. It will be impossible for them to get g2g bm's at a fair price, whilst all the older guys have had them from before patch. This patch is discriminating.
Arkanor Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2006.08.31 19:31:00 - [56] Originally by: ching'sta Damn i know i should have copy the Metropolis set a couple of days ago when i had it on my mind It's not that I'm worried about, it's the instapopping 200km uncatchable SSing WCSing sniper who no longer has to worry about cloaks who would get 2 minutes to blow my ship up. Originally by: Ghosthowl WoW = hardcore paladins smashin dat face. Originally by: HippoKing I just cried, you know that?

Jacques Archambault Forum Moderator Interstellar Services Department	Posted - 2006.08.31 19:35:00 - [57] thread cleaned. Please keep your replies polite and constructive. Also, please don't advise other players to utilize macros or other illegal 3rd party programs which are against the EVE-Online EULA. -Jacques' forum rules \| [email protected] \| Our Website! Want to be an EVE-Online forum moderator? click here!

Garramon Gallente Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e	Posted - 2006.08.31 20:07:00 - [58] Originally by: Khes I havnt tried it myself yet, but perhaps this means that, yes you can only copy 5 BMs at the time but they are copyed much faster. So even if you have to be more active when copying, the overall time for copying many BMs is shorter now then before? It is a secret ( not really ) , but it is already faster to copy whole sets this way. Just takes a steady hand and good memory. For some reason the fact that ~50% of the people replying to the thread fail to read and understand the point of the OP is hilarious.
Ozzie Asrail Hybrid Syndicate	Posted - 2006.08.31 20:21:00 - [59] I may be totoally stupid here but... Why doesnt CCP simply make bookmarks non-copyable but implemet a right click menu in people and places that does a "Send BM to..." Select a player and next down time (or possibly a low priority thread on low cpu usage nodes?) the BM's are copied. End result is no BM's in cans or shuttles lagging out combat, no 100's of people copying BM's in Jita on Sunday evenings. The load of copying is totally in CCP's control. -----
Argenton Sayvers	Posted - 2006.08.31 21:35:00 - [60] Edited by: Argenton Sayvers on 31/08/2006 21:41:04 Originally by: Jacques Archambault Also, please don't advise other players to utilize macros or other illegal 3rd party programs which are against the EVE-Online EULA. -Jacques' Maybe someone should tell that to the devs? Designing systems that cause wrist-pain doing something that can be done with 10 lines of code (but breaking the EULA) is not the smartest way to handle things. If you close your eyes, macros wont disapear. Neither will google (or evesearch). 1. Instas stay as they are - they are a requirement. People with instas dont need people without instas. 2. Making instas is alot harder then before - but low and behold, nothing changes when you decide to break the EULA. Not that it can be traced, since you dont need a single SP do it. there are many more examples where using macros or other (legit) lame tactics got massively favored by game design while "honest" players got nerfed into oblivion. Way to go. by the way: people use macros and scripts for exactly those reasons - recurring, boring tasks that can be easily automated. Im talking about windows administration etc. When i have to rename 10000 files named fileN1.jpeg into something like file_N1.jpg, do you really think im going to do that manually? There are some "instant gratification" whiners who might actually preach pain as the way to salvation. Do you know a sane person who would feel guilty when he gets the job done with 2 clicks? Do you know someone who would feel guilty when he gets the job done with 2 clicks in eve?

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