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Sigurd Ross
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Posted - 2006.09.01 07:53:00 -
[1]
Before you flame me, hear me out, please.
- First off, virtually no fantasy MMO out there is true to its setting, letting EQesque metagame cliches creep in. What I mean are "spawns," "camps," "corpse runs" and other anomalies that are obviously not explained in the game's fiction, and are antithetical to the setting.
- Second, you never really feel heroic. Anything "epic" that you do requires about fourty other people, all "raiding" some monsters house, and ganging on it till it falls over.
- Third, the special effects are silly. What cinematic fantasy has glowing green particle effects with healing spells, or healing spells to begin with? Know how stupid it'd be in the context of a fantasy for some guy to be "healed" faster than a sword in his guts could kill him, over and over again?
- Fourth, the "level" "race" "class" system is very tired, boring, and cliche. D+D never intended "level" to be anything more than a reward for continued play of the same character in a tabletop setting, not a way to measure epeens or determine who "wins" before a battle starts.
Anyone wanna add more?
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Benefactor
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Posted - 2006.09.01 07:55:00 -
[2]
Elves. I think it's been said before, but if you're seen one metrosexual, arrogant, prissy angsty "roleplayer" elf with a half-demon bloodline and Sephrioth-wannabe hair, you've seen em all.
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Gyn Seng
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Posted - 2006.09.01 07:59:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Benefactor
Elves. I think it's been said before, but if you're seen one metrosexual, arrogant, prissy angsty "roleplayer" elf with a half-demon bloodline and Sephrioth-wannabe hair, you've seen em all.
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Alliaanna Dalaii
Gallente
Does Not Compute
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Posted - 2006.09.01 08:00:00 -
[4]
Elves ! They all suck BECAUSE THEY HAVE ELVES 
And I agree with most of your points lol, But the day a Warhammer 40k DECENT MMPORG / RPG comes out im bloody buying it! And those Eldar prats look remarkably like elves to me
Alliaanna
DNC Treasure Hunt !!
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Nanobotter Mk2
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Posted - 2006.09.01 08:02:00 -
[5]
Uhm that is why they are called fantasy MORON.
what ever list you come up with a similar one could be created for eve, and how suddenly the same dam ship you seen and killed a zillion time is uber because some officer or commander is tagged for the name... Heck WTf is with names floating in space above your ship? I hope you get my drift it is personal preference, some like fanstasy based some like sci-fi based, which is really fantasy in space.
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Alliaanna Dalaii
Gallente
Does Not Compute
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Posted - 2006.09.01 08:12:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2
Uhm that is why they are called fantasy MORON.
Heck WTf is with names floating in space above your ship? .
OMG, What you mean like numbers and words and stuff showing up... but they shouldn't really be there ? No ******* wai
Kinda like this ?
20,000 years into the future prehaps a Pod pilot has a slightly more advanced Heads up display than a current day f16.... who knows 
As to being able to see your ship from a 3rd prospective from within your POD, Urrr advanced computery wizadry, little drone with a camera ?
Or in the Minmatar's case a 20th century video camera hanging from the back of the ship on a piece of string 
Who knows....
Alliaanna
DNC Treasure Hunt !!
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Reksal Holiau
Minmatar
The Money Consortium
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Posted - 2006.09.01 08:12:00 -
[7]
I got 2!
1) Warp into massive planets
2) A shuttle bumped my Raven
LoL. I think Eve share the same list as any other games out there. This goes the same for movies. How many things we can picked up from the latest and the greatest movies?
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Benefactor
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Posted - 2006.09.01 08:12:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2
Uhm that is why they are called fantasy MORON.
what ever list you come up with a similar one could be created for eve, and how suddenly the same dam ship you seen and killed a zillion time is uber because some officer or commander is tagged for the name... Heck WTf is with names floating in space above your ship? I hope you get my drift it is personal preference, some like fanstasy based some like sci-fi based, which is really fantasy in space.
I'm glad WoW's target audience chimed in.
Um, fantasy (as in, GOOD, original fantasy) doesn't have to include elves or any of that crap. But since you don't really read any of those kind of novels, I'll spare you an exhaustive list.
Wheel of Time is a good start, and a fine example of a fantasy setting without Blizzard's tired, soulless fantasy cliches.
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Benefactor
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Posted - 2006.09.01 08:13:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Reksal Holiau
I got 2!
1) Warp into massive planets
2) A shuttle bumped my Raven
LoL. I think Eve share the same list as any other games out there. This goes the same for movies. How many things we can picked up from the latest and the greatest movies?
Ah, but are we talking about EVE here? Did we imply EVE was perfect? Noooooooo. 
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Benefactor
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Posted - 2006.09.01 08:14:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Benefactor on 01/09/2006 08:14:32
You know what? I think someone struck a nerve with Nanobotter.
How DARE we make fun of his dark, brooding Sephiroth clone on a WoW roleplay server!
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Nyphur
Pillowsoft
Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.09.01 08:15:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2
Uhm that is why they are called fantasy MORON.
I think you're confusing the word "fantasy" with the word "Everquest". It's understandable. The keys are like.. right next to each other.
One thing I hate about the level system in fantasy games is that level is everything. It determines PvP before it starts when a level 10 guy can't even touch a level 20 guy. In eve, it'd be like battleships being automatically immune to cruisers and below. There aren't many MMOs out there with decent PVP systems. Eve is one of the ones that makes PvP really work.
Eve-Tanking.com - For tanking spreadsheet and resources. |
Twilight Moon
Minmatar
eXceed Inc.
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.09.01 08:21:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Benefactor
Originally by: Reksal Holiau
I got 2!
1) Warp into massive planets
2) A shuttle bumped my Raven
LoL. I think Eve share the same list as any other games out there. This goes the same for movies. How many things we can picked up from the latest and the greatest movies?
Ah, but are we talking about EVE here? Did we imply EVE was perfect? Noooooooo.
No, I think this was simply a cheap bash thread aimed at WoW. Given that it captivates over 50% of the MMORPG market I'd say that its somewhat unjustified. They must be doing something right to have that many subscribers.
You're saying you want a MMORPG that is based basically on what it was like in the Dark Ages. Sounds woefully boring to me, having to sit in a hut that constitites for a hospital in those days, trying to recover from someone seperating 1/2 your gut from your body with a legnth of steel. you're lie there, watching your character in agony on screen, for a few weeks (providing he isnt dead already), seeing the wound getting infected, develop gangrene and die.
Oh....and then you have to re-roll a new character, because its "unrealistic" to come back front the dead.
No....I think a certain detachment from reality serves as a good thing in MMO's. 
...on the other hand using a banana might be a viable alternative.
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Benefactor
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Posted - 2006.09.01 08:26:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Twilight Moon
Originally by: Benefactor
Originally by: Reksal Holiau
I got 2!
1) Warp into massive planets
2) A shuttle bumped my Raven
LoL. I think Eve share the same list as any other games out there. This goes the same for movies. How many things we can picked up from the latest and the greatest movies?
Ah, but are we talking about EVE here? Did we imply EVE was perfect? Noooooooo.
No, I think this was simply a cheap bash thread aimed at WoW. Given that it captivates over 50% of the MMORPG market I'd say that its somewhat unjustified. They must be doing something right to have that many subscribers.
You're saying you want a MMORPG that is based basically on what it was like in the Dark Ages. Sounds woefully boring to me, having to sit in a hut that constitites for a hospital in those days, trying to recover from someone seperating 1/2 your gut from your body with a legnth of steel. you're lie there, watching your character in agony on screen, for a few weeks (providing he isnt dead already), seeing the wound getting infected, develop gangrene and die.
Oh....and then you have to re-roll a new character, because its "unrealistic" to come back front the dead.
No....I think a certain detachment from reality serves as a good thing in MMO's.
I stopped reading that with the popularity statement.
I suppose McDonald's is fine dining, pop music is the pinnacle of talent, and MySpace is the reason the Internet exists.
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Baldour Ngarr
Artemis Rising
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Posted - 2006.09.01 08:34:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Benefactor
I stopped reading that with the popularity statement.
I suppose McDonald's is fine dining, pop music is the pinnacle of talent, and MySpace is the reason the Internet exists.
And who appointed you God, that your personal opinion is law and what millions of other people think has no bearing on anything?
Popularity *IS* the only measure of quality for things like this. If you don't like it but 75% of the population does, then I'm afraid you're outvoted. Tough.
________________________________________________
"I tried strip mining, but I lost, and it's cold flying around in space naked." |
Benefactor
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Posted - 2006.09.01 08:37:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Benefactor on 01/09/2006 08:38:13
Originally by: Baldour Ngarr
Originally by: Benefactor
I stopped reading that with the popularity statement.
I suppose McDonald's is fine dining, pop music is the pinnacle of talent, and MySpace is the reason the Internet exists.
And who appointed you God, that your personal opinion is law and what millions of other people think has no bearing on anything?
Popularity *IS* the only measure of quality for things like this. If you don't like it but 75% of the population does, then I'm afraid you're outvoted. Tough.
Um, that is probably the most ignorant thing I've read all day.
Begging your pardon, popularity means nothing more than "more people play X." In WoW's case, I argue it's not a quality statement, but excellent PR, "OMG BLIZZARD" word of mouth that swamped over just about everyone I knew, and generally, whenever a WoWer I knew tried a new game, they placed their WoW biases on the game (WHAT LEV DO U PVP IN EVE?). Vicious cycle, that is.
I'm glad fringe games like EvE exist, for those of us that look for more in a game than how many people jump on the bandwagon.
Besides... did the OP mention WoW? Nooooo, plenty of fantasy games have the tiresome mechanics that he mentioned. But I guess the WoW fanboys have to come out of the woodwork to defend their baby. I just wish there was more good to say about WoW than "OMG 5 MILLION CAN'T BE WRONG!"
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Twilight Moon
Minmatar
eXceed Inc.
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.09.01 09:12:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Twilight Moon on 01/09/2006 09:12:41
Originally by: Benefactor
I stopped reading that with the popularity statement.
I suppose McDonald's is fine dining, pop music is the pinnacle of talent, and MySpace is the reason the Internet exists.
Where did I say that popularity makes WoW the pinnacle of MMO's?
I didnt. Perhaps if you'd actually bothered to read the post, instead of just jumping to conclusions, we might be able to have a decent debate about this.
...on the other hand using a banana might be a viable alternative.
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Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.09.01 09:18:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2
Heck WTf is with names floating in space above your ship?
The names are there because your pod puts them into your optic nerve.
Dulce et decorum est, pro imperator mori |
Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2006.09.01 09:20:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Baldour Ngarr
Originally by: Benefactor
I stopped reading that with the popularity statement.
I suppose McDonald's is fine dining, pop music is the pinnacle of talent, and MySpace is the reason the Internet exists.
And who appointed you God, that your personal opinion is law and what millions of other people think has no bearing on anything?
Popularity *IS* the only measure of quality for things like this. If you don't like it but 75% of the population does, then I'm afraid you're outvoted. Tough.
So Britney Spears, Busted and Girls Aloud must all be real quality then.
Dulce et decorum est, pro imperator mori |
Twilight Moon
Minmatar
eXceed Inc.
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.09.01 09:25:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Rodj Blake
So Britney Spears, Busted and Girls Aloud must all be real quality then.
Since when were Britney Spears, Busted and Girls Aloud classed as MMO's?
...on the other hand using a banana might be a viable alternative.
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Benefactor
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Posted - 2006.09.01 09:31:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Twilight Moon
Originally by: Rodj Blake
So Britney Spears, Busted and Girls Aloud must all be real quality then.
Since when were Britney Spears, Busted and Girls Aloud classed as MMO's?
I guess popularity exclusively matters to MMOs alone. Which makes absolutely no sense.
Either the taste of 5 million people matters, or it doesn't. In my case, being in retail a few years clues you in to the intelligence of Average Joe and Average Jane, and so popularity means nothing to me.
If anything, popular MMOs make me wary to try em. (I played WoW to the raid grind, so don't assume I didn't try it)
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Twilight Moon
Minmatar
eXceed Inc.
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.09.01 09:38:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Sigurd Ross
- Third, the special effects are silly. What cinematic fantasy has glowing green particle effects with healing spells, or healing spells to begin with? Know how stupid it'd be in the context of a fantasy for some guy to be "healed" faster than a sword in his guts could kill him, over and over again?
Anyway...the point I was trying to make was that by trying to make an MMO more "lifelike" you would make it dull. I dont want to get killed by getting one sword in the gut. I want to re-spawn, not re-roll on death. If you can think of a better means of going about it then by all means, let us know.
As for "shiny green healing"....you ever seen an Armour Repairer in EVE in action? It needs to be this way. If it were to be realistic Healing/Repairing, I'd have to sit in a space station repair yard for a few months while little men in spacesuits welded shiny new armour plating to my hull.
...on the other hand using a banana might be a viable alternative.
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Benefactor
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Posted - 2006.09.01 09:40:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Twilight Moon
Originally by: Sigurd Ross
- Third, the special effects are silly. What cinematic fantasy has glowing green particle effects with healing spells, or healing spells to begin with? Know how stupid it'd be in the context of a fantasy for some guy to be "healed" faster than a sword in his guts could kill him, over and over again?
Anyway...the point I was trying to make was that by trying to make an MMO more "lifelike" you would make it dull. I dont want to get killed by getting one sword in the gut. I want to re-spawn, not re-roll on death. If you can think of a better means of going about it then by all means, let us know.
As for "shiny green healing"....you ever seen an Armour Repairer in EVE in action? It needs to be this way. If it were to be realistic Healing/Repairing, I'd have to sit in a space station repair yard for a few months while little men in spacesuits welded shiny new armour plating to my hull.
Yes, but glowy special effects are all over sci-fi. Ever see heal0rs in fantasy cinema?
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Melkor Bloodaxe
Minmatar
LEGI0N
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Posted - 2006.09.01 09:42:00 -
[23]
To the OP.
The reason most fantasy MMO's suck is because the majority of them are all the same: Dwarves, Elves, tree-rich environment, strange looking monsters, etc. You've seen one, you've seen most of them.
In most cases however, it's the majority of the people who rule.
Sad, but true.
____
"Since when is justified killing more fun than random killing?" -HippoKing-
TEAM MINMATAR
- In Rust We Trust - |
Damien Smith
Turbulent
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Posted - 2006.09.01 09:42:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Reksal Holiau
2) A shuttle bumped my Raven
Yeah, those shuttles are evil.
-----------
Join channel 'Turby' or die! (bring pie)
Mission running carebears drop good loot. Probe one out today!
I <3 carebears on toast ^^ - Xorus |
Nyssa Dakalsai
Cosmic Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2006.09.01 10:32:00 -
[25]
Bring me Warhammer 40K MMO, and i'll be happy.!
FOR THE EMPEROR!
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Lemming Wonder
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Posted - 2006.09.01 10:57:00 -
[26]
Death to the False Emperor!
That because in this day of age, there are currently lots of fantasy MMO out there. EQ2, Lineage2, Ragnarok Online, Maple Online, Dark and Light, WoW, Archlord, DAoC, Asheron Call, Seal Online, Runescape, etc. All of them with almost the same layout, human, orc, dwarf and elves...
.. especially those Korean MMO which has elven fetish in it...
PS: The Eldar in W40K are elves in space... but it's not going to stop me from playing W40K online tho.
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Roxanna Kell
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2006.09.01 11:07:00 -
[27]
you guys complain too much, yet you still play all this games.
it will take a lots of work to create real life again, wether past or future, you just can;'t.
so if you want real fantasy hero action, picky up armor, sword and shield, and head over to chelsea to fight their fans, kill their manager he drops officer loot.
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Sean Dillon
Caldari
Shadows of the Dead
Knights Of the Southerncross
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Posted - 2006.09.01 11:16:00 -
[28]
When U played one fantasy mmorpg u have played them all. There are some unique, but hard to find. I am sorta looking at Pirates of the burning sea, now that can be something original and fun to play actualy.
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Zaldiri
Caldari
Automated Industries
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Posted - 2006.09.01 12:12:00 -
[29]
To have good fantasy you have to have a little originality, at least a newish take on the standard elf ridden D&D thing.
Have a look at the elder scrolls games for example.
-----------------------------------------------
Admiral of King Frieza's Super Saiyan fleet.
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XenoPagan
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Posted - 2006.09.01 12:27:00 -
[30]
At some point in my life I had enough of fantasy RPG's too. Lots of people like them though so I don't see the problem. Of course I'd love to see that Blizzard would have made World of Starcraft instead of Warcraft, but hey... marketing rules e'm all. Fantasy theme is easier-going than sci-fi universe. Of course sci-fi CAN have elves in thongs too but... well, let's hope they stay in fantasy universe :p
More thongs = more kiddies
But! I know that when Warhammer Online comes out, I'm going to try it.
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Hans Roaming
Body Count Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2006.09.01 12:36:00 -
[31]
Just wish they would all drop the computerised D&D feeling, what works for paper doesn't work so well for computers I feel.
As for Sci Fi, when technology gets to the point where we can be playing a MMO that feels like i-war 2 then it will be amazing.
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Freyjan
Ore Mongers
Pirate Coalition
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Posted - 2006.09.01 14:33:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Twilight Moon
Anyway...the point I was trying to make was that by trying to make an MMO more "lifelike" you would make it dull. I dont want to get killed by getting one sword in the gut. I want to re-spawn, not re-roll on death. If you can think of a better means of going about it then by all means, let us know.
Diablo 2's hardcore mode was fun ^_^
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Crunch Hardiron
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.09.01 14:45:00 -
[33]
MMORPGs - Taking the RP out of RPGs since 1997!
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"Everyone who doesn't believe the sky is falling is an ass-kissing fanboi! EVE is going to fail, mark my words!" -Customers |
LWMaverick
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Posted - 2006.09.01 14:53:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Nyssa Dakalsai
Bring me Warhammer 40K MMO, and i'll be happy.!
FOR THE EMPEROR!
oh god yes 
<3  |
Twilight Moon
Minmatar
eXceed Inc.
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.09.01 15:02:00 -
[35]
Originally by: LWMaverick
Originally by: Nyssa Dakalsai
Bring me Warhammer 40K MMO, and i'll be happy.!
FOR THE EMPEROR!
oh god yes
/signed.
...on the other hand using a banana might be a viable alternative.
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Leverton
Caldari
Research Associates
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Posted - 2006.09.01 15:28:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Benefactor
Elves. I think it's been said before, but if you're seen one metrosexual, arrogant, prissy angsty "roleplayer" elf with a half-demon bloodline and Sephrioth-wannabe hair, you've seen em all.
I would like to point out that "REAL" elves, like those in LOTR for example, while do have the elegance to them, can and do fight to the death with a sword or bow. Fantasy MMOs and the kiddies who play elves have ruined the name of them, imo.
The universe is governed by the aggressive use of force.
Hows this for a little note! Oh, and YARRRRR!! - Petwraith
I prefer the term RAWR  - Xorus |
jarack
Generals Of Destruction Syndicate
Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2006.09.01 15:35:00 -
[37]
yeah and how can a 3 ft dwarf be taken seriously!
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Leverton
Caldari
Research Associates
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Posted - 2006.09.01 15:36:00 -
[38]
Originally by: jarack
yeah and how can a 3 ft dwarf be taken seriously!
Don't be hatin' on the dwarves now.
The universe is governed by the aggressive use of force.
Hows this for a little note! Oh, and YARRRRR!! - Petwraith
I prefer the term RAWR - Xorus |
Roxanna Kell
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2006.09.01 16:35:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Zaldiri
To have good fantasy you have to have a little originality, at least a newish take on the standard elf ridden D&D thing.
Have a look at the elder scrolls games for example.
it will be nice of that world of oblivion was multiplayer, we can only dream
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Suze'Rain
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Posted - 2006.09.01 16:40:00 -
[40]
Elves. Orcs. Dwarves (who always hate orcs).
Why do the blow goats? because unoriginal, thrid rate designers shamelessly rip off tolkienesque settings without any thought for creative alternate setting which can avoid such pap.
Then you've got the entire game mechanics. 90% of them are based on Gary Gygax's D&D tabletop system that's now 30 years old, and was'nt particularly good back then, nevermind now.
gamers have been so force-fed charactersheets and tables than they're unable to cope in games without it as a measure of success. likewise, race/class systems which pidgeonhole people into pointless sections, instead of just doing whatever the hell they want.
it's one of the great things about eve, imo. can you imagine how bad it'd be if you were talking about your "lvl45scout/lvl12miner dual-classed Caldari rogue" ? ugh.
from there, backstories that have rediculous names. Yes, let's all rescue the princess Voluptua from the clutches of the evil wizard of Phnarg.
and why the hell do female fantasy characters HAVE to be in chainmiail bikinis? I was at a certain game developer's conference recently, ripping the **** out of the project director of a certain AAA-list MMO that's about to be released next year, pointing out this point, and I'm rather pleased when he finally admitted that, betweeen the lack of creative design, and the oversaturated market, he'd be happy if "it sells enough to let me keep my job". grr.
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Rakatan Ronala
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.09.01 16:51:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Twilight Moon
No, I think this was simply a cheap bash thread aimed at WoW.
My thoughts exactly,dont like a fantasy setting?Dont play fantasy games,is this a fantasy game?No so appearantly you managed to ditch fantasy games.
Why do you still complain about them?Probably a WoW bash yeah..
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Leverton
Caldari
Research Associates
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Posted - 2006.09.01 16:57:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Rakatan Ronala
Originally by: Twilight Moon
No, I think this was simply a cheap bash thread aimed at WoW.
My thoughts exactly,dont like a fantasy setting?Dont play fantasy games,is this a fantasy game?No so appearantly you managed to ditch fantasy games.
Why do you still complain about them?Probably a WoW bash yeah..
This is not a WoW bash, stop hijacking this thread. FANTASY includes WoW, but also includes games like EQ, EQ2, FFXI, Guild Wars, etc.
The universe is governed by the aggressive use of force.
Hows this for a little note! Oh, and YARRRRR!! - Petwraith
I prefer the term RAWR - Xorus |
Derrios
Vasagar
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Posted - 2006.09.01 17:57:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Benefactor
Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2
Uhm that is why they are called fantasy MORON.
what ever list you come up with a similar one could be created for eve, and how suddenly the same dam ship you seen and killed a zillion time is uber because some officer or commander is tagged for the name... Heck WTf is with names floating in space above your ship? I hope you get my drift it is personal preference, some like fanstasy based some like sci-fi based, which is really fantasy in space.
I'm glad WoW's target audience chimed in.
Um, fantasy (as in, GOOD, original fantasy) doesn't have to include elves or any of that crap. But since you don't really read any of those kind of novels, I'll spare you an exhaustive list.
Wheel of Time is a good start, and a fine example of a fantasy setting without Blizzard's tired, soulless fantasy cliches.
You mean Song of Ice and Fire.
WoT had ogres or whatever he called them keke~
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Reiisha
Frontier Technologies
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Posted - 2006.09.01 18:14:00 -
[44]
The Chronicles of Spellborn
Ryzom
Sadly, they are exceptions, but prove that fantasy doesn't necessarily has to revolve around elves.
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Rakatan Ronala
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.09.01 18:26:00 -
[45]
Fantasy is a great setting,if you dont like it thats fine,but thats youre opinion,dont starta fuss about it.
And it only revolves around elfes if all you pay attention to are the elfes butts and perverted kids..just stop paying so much attention to them,geez.
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Kurren
Farscape Mining
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Posted - 2006.09.01 23:23:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Twilight Moon
No, I think this was simply a cheap bash thread aimed at WoW. Given that it captivates over 50% of the MMORPG market I'd say that its somewhat unjustified. They must be doing something right to have that many subscribers.
Now, I stopped reading this after this statement. There's just too much wrong with it.
1) WoW (and this may surprise you) is NOT the only game with elves in it... or leveling... or heal spells...
2) I'm going to reply to the "popularity of WoW" with this statement. NO! BAD TWILIGHT! The Wayan's Brothers movies only do well because they appeal... to ignorant people. And, if there's one thing this world has a lot of... it's people that play WoW... I mean ignorant people. 
--- --- --- ---
My Sig Is Not Too Big...
Eris is the holder of the pink so you get orange for now - Xorus |
F'nog
Amarr
Celestial Horizon Corp.
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.09.02 06:24:00 -
[47]
What a stupid thread. You're basically arguing that Fantasy MMOGs aren't lifelike enough. That's just stupid, especially when there are plenty of reasons that they do suck.
Let's look at some of the things you said:
Quote:
- First off, virtually no fantasy MMO out there is true to its setting, letting EQesque metagame cliches creep in. What I mean are "spawns," "camps," "corpse runs" and other anomalies that are obviously not explained in the game's fiction, and are antithetical to the setting.
This I can partly agree with. There's just not enough originality in the genre. Everyone looked at EQ's success, and now especially WoW's and said, "Let's make a game just like theirs!" There's very little creativity in any of them. Ironically, the most creative thing lately is probably the fact that WoW has the Dark Elves as the "good" guys and the High Elves as the "bad".
There are just so many things that could be done with fantasy settings that aren't. Look at Dark Sun. That's a great campaign that totally throws out the conventional Tolkien sense of what the races are like and makes them original. That would make a kickass MMOG.
Plus, they're all copying EQ's format of levels, classes, and the content. Why can't there be any fantasy mmogs that try to break this mold? Answer, it's too easy to copy what's proven to work than to use some grey matter and think up new ways to have fun in a game.
Quote:
- Second, you never really feel heroic. Anything "epic" that you do requires about fourty other people, all "raiding" some monsters house, and ganging on it till it falls over.
While this would be nice, it's not really possible in a multiplayer game to be Achilles or Conan. Everyone wants a chance to do stuff, so there's really no way around having group encounters. It's a MMOG after all. If only one person could do something, what would be the point? And what about all the others who didn't do it, the thousands or even millions who can't be a god? And if everyone could be Achilles, what would be the point of it?
Quote:
- Third, the special effects are silly. What cinematic fantasy has glowing green particle effects with healing spells, or healing spells to begin with? Know how stupid it'd be in the context of a fantasy for some guy to be "healed" faster than a sword in his guts could kill him, over and over again?
See the beginning of my post. It's FANTASY! There's something called suspension of disbelief. I guess you don't like Star Wars or Lord of the Rings because they weren't realistic either? What about Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon? Or Star Trek?
Quote:
- Fourth, the "level" "race" "class" system is very tired, boring, and cliche. D+D never intended "level" to be anything more than a reward for continued play of the same character in a tabletop setting, not a way to measure epeens or determine who "wins" before a battle starts.
Agreed. But this is a problem in most games, even Sci-fi ones. See my reply to the first quote. Most games just use the tried and true formula without thinking of new ways to do things.
So while some of your points are valid, they apply to more than just fantasy. This is a problem with games in general. Not enough creativity in design. It is not a problem inherent in fantasy, or any other single genre.
Originally by: DB Preacher
The only time BoB's backs are to the wall is when backdoor bandit is in local.
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Tripp Orsam
Dragonstar
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Posted - 2006.09.02 07:42:00 -
[48]
original poster is 100% correct, personally I thinking there is nothing wrong with the whole idea of a fantasy MMO but someone needs to *drastically* break the mold. This level-class-40manRaiding-corpseRun crap we see these days is ALL the same and I refuse to pay money for them until one is released that is very different.
There was a game under development a while back called Wish which looked quite promising but it was cancelled very close to release for some reason, It probably would have gone the same way as all the others but it seemed different to me and the devs seemed to have a good attitude like the EVE ones have, oh well. Something will come up we just have to be patient, very patient.
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EVE Online perfectly strikes all your free time wrecking your 1994 marriage. |
Scorpio Dantes
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Posted - 2006.09.02 10:10:00 -
[49]
Personally, I'd like to see a MMO in a historical setting - forget the elves and magic and spaceships. How about a MMO set in the Rennaissance? Your character could be a soldier of fortune and take part in the great wars of the age, or an artisan or a merchant. Maybe an MMO set in ancient Rome, or one among the warring city-states of Greece. Hell, I'd even like one set RIGHT NOW - how about multinational corporations waging war against each other using politicians and nations and terrorists as proxies in their never-ending quest for greater wealth and power? Or an economic simulation MMO set in the age of colonization? (that one is close to my heart - just finished M.A. along those lines!)
The list of ideas is endless, but again and again companies only want to produce fantasy MMOs, in hopes of creating the next WoW - even if it means more innovative, riskier ideas never get off the drawing board. It is my hope that as the gamer generation continues to mature, companies will start making a greater variety of products that cater to a crowd seeking more than laser guns, chain mail bikinis, and elves.
Oh well, one can hope.
SD
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nahtoh
Caldari
Bull Industries
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Posted - 2006.09.02 11:35:00 -
[50]
As a old style P&P RPG player...
Corpse runs...they happened
Spawns...what doe you think the campains were? or random encounters? Camping you never tried to setup a ambush for NPCs in a paper based RPG?
Effects well healing im paper based fantasy based RPGs was down toyour imagation and what was described in the descriptions of spells effects.
Lvls in D&D were also a indicator of your power lvl as well. All paper RPGs fantasey, cyberpunk all had ways of expressing your increase in power as time and expriance progressed.
And don't get me started on Tolken as a original source...first to combine them yes but pretty much all of his source material was taken from exsiting myths (race wise had his own spin mind you but still derives from other material)...
Elves =sidhie etc...
While I am glad he wrote The Lord of The Rings purely because a lot of my preered authors cite him as a insperation I dislike the books themselves.
I glad to see someone mentioning the Dark Sun world mind you
You are missing out the fact that computers are still limited for what can be done so game mechs limit what you can do with a predetermined and inflexable rule set, Its not like you can ask the DM "what if i try this!!!!" and get a ruling madeup on the spot, random example lveitte spell stone casket and a running start=battering ram/goblin crusher or
GM"you are in a airship and a attacker swings in a window with weapons ready...what do you do?"
ME"punch him back out the window"
GM"ok he is dangling on teh rope climbing back up now what?"
Me"cut the rope and listen to the screams while readying my weapons"
A computer game does not have the flexiblity of a real person runnign the show...
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"I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the problem fix its self |
Danton Marcellus
Nebula Rasa Holdings
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Posted - 2006.09.02 12:31:00 -
[51]
Fantasy MMOs suck 'cause of the oversized weapons and the disney appearance of things, pastel colors, fluffy things that talk back and the overboard magic effects, disco inferno anyone, did you just cast a spell? I did not notice...
Fantasy MMOs generally rely on the three pillars of perception, size, lights & fur.
Looking For Ventrilo Hosting |
Denrace
Amarr
STK Scientific
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.09.03 00:05:00 -
[52]
Everyone to their own, tbfh.
Den
________________________________________
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Taaketa Frist
The Praxis Initiative
Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.09.03 00:59:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Taaketa Frist on 03/09/2006 00:59:29
Dark and Light was gonna be my dream fantasy... That was until it was released and my life was ruined...
Someday I will design and draw up plans and lore for a fantasy... and it will include Elves but none of this naked chicks crap.
If only CCP considered a MMO Fantasy... I'm sure they would design one that was harsh enough for my tastes..
"No no!! WHAT ARE YOU DOING TO MY BODY!!!"
edit: On second thoughts CCP should make a "Western Based" MMORPG. Damn that would be good. *Starts playing the good the bad and the ugly title theme*
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Dang nabit |
Ceramik
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Posted - 2006.09.03 01:53:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Benefactor
I stopped reading that with the popularity statement.
I suppose McDonald's is fine dining, pop music is the pinnacle of talent, and MySpace is the reason the Internet exists.
McDonalds is popular due to convenience
Pop music is popular because of the uneducated masses with little to no exposure to classical, jazz, blues, etc. etc. etc.
MySpace is popular because it gives losers a self esteem boost "omg 20,000 viewer of my page!!!!111one", provides free advertising for bands, or allows people to keep in touch with friends who don't live so close without having to actually talk to those people (who aren't really their friends)
WoW is popular because Probably due to all the blizzard fanbois, children who like the cute cartoonish characters, people who like relatively simple gameplay, dorks who get off to elves... The point is that WoW combines a ton of different attractions into one package that satisfies the needs of children, uber dorks, and bored people who don't know about better games everywhere
EVE is popular because -are you ready for this?- The awesome politics, large amount of thinking involved in the game, non-grind based skill training, and relatively wide range of gameplay styles; which appeals to an older audience who want a complex game but also have real lives. These people don't want something simple, but they also don't have the time to grind for levels.
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Ceramik
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Posted - 2006.09.03 01:57:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Derrios
Edited by: Derrios on 01/09/2006 18:10:31
Originally by: Benefactor
Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2
Uhm that is why they are called fantasy MORON.
what ever list you come up with a similar one could be created for eve, and how suddenly the same dam ship you seen and killed a zillion time is uber because some officer or commander is tagged for the name... Heck WTf is with names floating in space above your ship? I hope you get my drift it is personal preference, some like fanstasy based some like sci-fi based, which is really fantasy in space.
I'm glad WoW's target audience chimed in.
Um, fantasy (as in, GOOD, original fantasy) doesn't have to include elves or any of that crap. But since you don't really read any of those kind of novels, I'll spare you an exhaustive list.
Wheel of Time is a good start, and a fine example of a fantasy setting without Blizzard's tired, soulless fantasy cliches.
You mean Song of Ice and Fire.
WoT had ogres or whatever he called them keke~
On a more topic related note. Coming from playing a ton of previous MMOs. I can tell you its 10x harder to make a good Sci Fi game, than a good fantasy game.
This is my opinion when it comes to Sci Fi so maybe you agree with me maybe not.
It *has* to have solid physics and believable mechanics or the game just seems dumb. I've tried some previous sci fi MMOs and they mechanics of the game just felt fake. Hence why I never tried eve till this year. Only reason im playing is because the solid mechanics make the game *feel* the way they want to.
Fantasy you can cast a spell and it can shoot off wherever, why? Because of that word "Fantasy". Granted yes the market is oversatured w/ these types of settigns and its very hard to produce a game that doesn't feel like youre playing an overhaul of an old game.
Vanguard to me felt like a complete rehash of EQ1. Which I knew it would be. I really enjoyed original EQ so I wanted to see what a new version would be like. I'll prolly ramp my beta back up when the programming becomes more solid etc. Early beta sucked. -_- Anyways thats my 2c worth.
-Derrios
Song of Ice and Fire has Wights...and Ghouls...but damn good series TBFH. Waiting on the next release...should be within the next month or 2 I think.
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Carmen Estiete
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Posted - 2006.09.03 05:21:00 -
[56]
You know... we can all say that fantasy is the only genre that suffers endless exploitations in the MMOs, but it's a problem we'll see over and over again. Mainstream is what the industry wants it to be. I thank god for CCP and the EVE community for what they do, but for the most part MMO ganing genres (and everything that gets turned into an industry) tends to work like, well, like how you see Oil working now.
You get a resource, find things to do with the resource, make doing things with that resource appealing to people somehow, and exploit it until it runs dry.
Right now the fantasy genre is under that cycle. You go from EQ to EQ2 to WoW to Vangaurd, all games that try (and do quite well) to suck the fantasy genre and it's millions of fans dry. Each one is doing better down the line, but eventually there is probably going to be a be all end all, as far as the genre is concerned. This isn't to say the genre will die out, but the way the Gaming Industry wants to progress, the genre just won't be what makes an MMORPG anymore.
My point is that threads like this are useless. It doesn't matter how big a wrench you use to stop the gears from turning. There's enough money (or even more correctly, enough desire for money) to grease the wheels.
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Suze'Rain
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Posted - 2006.09.03 05:52:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Carmen Estiete
You know... we can all say that fantasy is the only genre that suffers endless exploitations in the MMOs, but it's a problem we'll see over and over again. Mainstream is what the industry wants it to be. I thank god for CCP and the EVE community for what they do, but for the most part MMO ganing genres (and everything that gets turned into an industry) tends to work like, well, like how you see Oil working now.
you have no idea how accurate that is.
I was at the world launch of lord of the rings online a week or so back. (A lot of the work was produced by Turbine I recall... which is ironic, because Tolkien could now be used as one, he's spinning in his grave so much.)
it is absolutely, shamelessly exploitive - a carbon copy of WoW in so many ways that I and a load of other delegates watching the launch from the sidelines were pretty much dumbstruck at how martket driven it was - we literally were dropping buzzwords and features and checking them off as they were announced.
no originality at all. "cookie cutter" design throughout.
what a waste.
and they're all like that now
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Mirage Kisaragi
Gallente
Warrior Nation United
New Eve Order
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Posted - 2006.09.03 08:22:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Zaldiri
To have good fantasy you have to have a little originality, at least a newish take on the standard elf ridden D&D thing.
Have a look at the elder scrolls games for example.
Those are true RPG games imo, a pity they're not being transformed into a MMORPG.
What I dislike about MMORPG's the most is the ridiculous grinding, I've experience .05% per kill rates and it's very long, one important reason I quit those games and switched to EVE.
~ Live by the sword, die by the sword ~
> > Gfx Artist for Hire < < |
KillahBabe
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Posted - 2006.09.03 11:51:00 -
[59]
Elves are bad, all those wannabe legolas kiddos with pets called shadowfax. *pukes*
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ivar R'dhak
STK Scientific
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.09.04 01:40:00 -
[60]
What¦s up with those mutaf#*!n snakes on my mutaf#*!n ¦phoon!? 
The last original RPG I played in the last 10 years was Bard¦s Tale.
Reason why I joined EvE was because after slicing, dicing, roasting, electrocuting, exploding, piercing, clobbering countless orks, gnomes, evil hunams, one/two/three/multi headed monsters of various sizes and types one is bound to get a little bored with it all.
So, I¦m actually happy that there are no truly creative fantasy games out there.
More time for EvE.
_
Mal-`Appears we got here just in a nick of time. What does that make us?¦
Zoe-¦Big damn heroes sir.¦
Mal-¦Aint we just.¦ |
Leverton
Caldari
Research Associates
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Posted - 2006.09.04 04:11:00 -
[61]
If you play the original WC games, including WC3, you'll get involved in an interesting story, with a fun RTS in the middle. WoW is a continuation of the story, and it can be fun if you're a fan of the story. If you only play for loot and such, you won't enjoy it.
I used to play WoW, but once I hit the end of the storylines, the game got dull, fast. So I quit. If you've got a few buddies that play, and you group up for PvP, you MAKE the game fun. WoW's big problem, like many other MMOs, is that the players can't really have an impact on the progression on the game, which EVE DOES have.
Fantasy games are fun to play if you get into the story, even if it was ripped off from Tolkein 
The universe is governed by the aggressive use of force.
Hows this for a little note! Oh, and YARRRRR!! - Petwraith
I prefer the term RAWR - Xorus
kekekekekekekeke - Immy |
Zen
Caldari
Plan 9 from Outer Space
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Posted - 2006.09.04 15:19:00 -
[62]
You know what Wow doesn't have, but Eve has plenty of?
Fanboys.
I played Wow for about a year, and I don't think I ever saw someone start a "Wow is better than X" thread. Maybe it was because they didn't know any other games... maybe it was because they were just happy to play a game they liked.
It seems quite a few Eve players have low self esteem, because they constantly feel the need to justify why Eve is so much "better" than whatever, and therefore playing Eve instead of Wow means they're "smarter" and more "sophisticated".
Just play the damn game and shut up.
(\_/)
(O.o)
(> <) |
Leverton
Caldari
Research Associates
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Posted - 2006.09.04 16:15:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Zen
You know what Wow doesn't have, but Eve has plenty of?
Fanboys.
I played Wow for about a year, and I don't think I ever saw someone start a "Wow is better than X" thread. Maybe it was because they didn't know any other games... maybe it was because they were just happy to play a game they liked.
It seems quite a few Eve players have low self esteem, because they constantly feel the need to justify why Eve is so much "better" than whatever, and therefore playing Eve instead of Wow means they're "smarter" and more "sophisticated".
Just play the damn game and shut up.
I hardly think that's really fair
The universe is governed by the aggressive use of force.
Hows this for a little note! Oh, and YARRRRR!! - Petwraith
I prefer the term RAWR - Xorus
kekekekekekekeke - Immy |
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