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At long last, Bloggers #20-something, Tuxford on Blobbing

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Herring Pimpology Pimpology in Mining Player	Posted - 2006.09.02 02:04:00 - [61] Originally by: Amthrianius Edited by: Amthrianius on 01/09/2006 21:18:54 "What is the problem here? Some say its focus firing and I would have to agree." No it's lag. Clicking warp waiting 20 seconds and not warping out then your ship pops. ^^^^What he said 1. As a dedicated carebear, nothing would **** me off more than successfully defending myself and having the assailant get away with 'severe hull damage' 2. Every single problem I've had with blobs has to do with not flying very smartly (5%) and lag lag lag (95%) Wishing for better mining ships in a system near you.
Unfamed II FinFleet Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.09.02 03:14:00 - [62] 2 words. ECM. Bubble. Interdictor.
Noriath	Posted - 2006.09.02 03:18:00 - [63] Yea, there is a big off a problem with first putting the Rokh in the game and then saying "ultra range bad"
MysticNZ Solstice Systems Development Concourse	Posted - 2006.09.02 04:24:00 - [64] Originally by: Idara Originally by: Nyphur So much for letting people play the way they like. Now blobbing needs "fixed"? People want to play the generic blob style of combat??!?! Ever read what it says on the eve retail box? That's right, huge 'fleet' combat. -=====- Xorus is teh nub :D I heard that beats player with big stick now be a good carebear and mine me some veldspar - Xorus
RayGic Luke	Posted - 2006.09.02 04:24:00 - [65] Things that might make fleet combat more interesting than blobbing: 1) Friendly Fire (You just can't shoot thru your mate to hit the enemy, can you?) 2) Weapons AoE damage (Even a small scale AoE weapon will make ppl think twice before hugging each other's ship) 3) Damage from Ship's explosion (Similar effect to small scale AoE damage) If all the above 3 points are in the game, how will a fleet battle turn out?
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.02 04:44:00 - [66] Im more worried than happy... mostly because it will change the game so much. But I do agree that fleet fights needs a big fix, because currently its not something Eve can be very proud of. I will try to have faith... something needs to be done, so might as well do it now. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Noriath	Posted - 2006.09.02 05:35:00 - [67] Originally by: RayGic Luke Things that might make fleet combat more interesting than blobbing: 1) Friendly Fire (You just can't shoot thru your mate to hit the enemy, can you?) 2) Weapons AoE damage (Even a small scale AoE weapon will make ppl think twice before hugging each other's ship) 3) Damage from Ship's explosion (Similar effect to small scale AoE damage) If all the above 3 points are in the game, how will a fleet battle turn out? Pretty much the same way it does right now. The ranges that ships can fire at and the ranges that ships can and have to move during a battle are so completly out of proportion that it makes no difference wether your enemys ships are 1km or 10km apart. It's impulse movement that's the real issue in Eve. Nobody wants to impule anywhere, people don't even want to impulse to the gates, and they sure as hell don't want to impulse 200km towards an enemy so they can engage him in a ship that doesn't shoot that far, not to mention that he will simply warp off if you even get close. The whole way ships move in eve pretty much leads to one thing: If you don't warp in within your weapons range you will never get into weapons range, because either you will die before you can fire a single shot, or your enemy will just warp off if you manage to get close enough to still win the fight. Bcause of that long range will always win out in Eve. Also there is the whole issue with large weapons having a really easy time killing small targets that are very far away. Now what the hell is that? If a battleship simply could not hit a frig that's 200km away fleet battles would look quite different, believe that. Pretty much what Eve needs is a change to a point where moving to the right place on the battlefield and the ability to do that quickly is just as strategically valid as how much range or firepower you have. In order to achieve that stuff needs a lot less range, more speed and ability to go places, and most of all, the way warping works right now just has to go. The mobility of a ship will never really play a strategic role as long as all positioning is done by warping rather then acctually moving a ship.
Tachy	Posted - 2006.09.02 06:02:00 - [68] I smell some group love coming. That means the love for groups, not by groups. Fields of fire and defense, friendly locks, yadda, yadda, yadda. The whole group related stuff that EVE's missing. Force field projector modules that can reduce the damage landing on a few ships hiding behind, but with massively reduced efficiency if to many ships are within x km. Disables WCS for x minutes for all ships in range. Fog caster modules reducing the opponent's locking and/or tracking speed. Love for BC, Logistics and Command ships. Semi-autonomous repair drone clouds that get overloaded if to many ships are within range. (Or shipclass points ... inty:1, frig:2, dessy:2, logistics:3, cruiser:4, ...). When overloading they could start damaging ships, reduce weapon efficiency, ... This might open interesting tactics for defenders and attackers. Splash damage on opposing ships - Can be toggled on/off to prevent Concordokken exploits. A bit less damage on the main target, but a chance to do a lot of damage to other ships, drones and structures in the area (not missiles). Voicechat solution that supports groups, command lines, and does work when sound is turned off and when the client bugs out for whatever reason. --==*-- Even with nougat, you can have a perfect moment.
General Apocalypse	Posted - 2006.09.02 06:04:00 - [69] Dicourage fleet battle , discourage long range .... Tux whants us all to go back to 1v1 frigate fights
Brokeback Jim	Posted - 2006.09.02 06:09:00 - [70] Would making it so you could actually warp to ships over 100-150km away help? Within the standard 15km, obviously. Always thought it was stupid I couldn't warp to him.
Sakura Nihil Tharsis Security	Posted - 2006.09.02 06:17:00 - [71] Splash damage ftw, without thinking about it too deeply. Either that, or make self-destructs do some splash damage instead, and we can have "suicide ships"... Meh, idk. We'll see how it goes. Whorum Skills ftw! I like cheese - Xorus
RayGic Luke	Posted - 2006.09.02 06:56:00 - [72] Originally by: Noriath Originally by: RayGic Luke Things that might make fleet combat more interesting than blobbing: 1) Friendly Fire (You just can't shoot thru your mate to hit the enemy, can you?) 2) Weapons AoE damage (Even a small scale AoE weapon will make ppl think twice before hugging each other's ship) 3) Damage from Ship's explosion (Similar effect to small scale AoE damage) If all the above 3 points are in the game, how will a fleet battle turn out? Pretty much the same way it does right now. The ranges that ships can fire at and the ranges that ships can and have to move during a battle are so completly out of proportion that it makes no difference wether your enemys ships are 1km or 10km apart. It's impulse movement that's the real issue in Eve. Nobody wants to impule anywhere, people don't even want to impulse to the gates, and they sure as hell don't want to impulse 200km towards an enemy so they can engage him in a ship that doesn't shoot that far, not to mention that he will simply warp off if you even get close. The whole way ships move in eve pretty much leads to one thing: If you don't warp in within your weapons range you will never get into weapons range, because either you will die before you can fire a single shot, or your enemy will just warp off if you manage to get close enough to still win the fight. Bcause of that long range will always win out in Eve. Also there is the whole issue with large weapons having a really easy time killing small targets that are very far away. Now what the hell is that? If a battleship simply could not hit a frig that's 200km away fleet battles would look quite different, believe that. Pretty much what Eve needs is a change to a point where moving to the right place on the battlefield and the ability to do that quickly is just as strategically valid as how much range or firepower you have. In order to achieve that stuff needs a lot less range, more speed and ability to go places, and most of all, the way warping works right now just has to go. The mobility of a ship will never really play a strategic role as long as all positioning is done by warping rather then acctually moving a ship. Friendly Fire, Weapons AoE damage & Damage from Ship's explosion will probably affect ppl who blobs. However, the extreme range combat is a different issue. Personally, I find extreme range combats rather boring with little tactics involved. Sadly, I can't think of a good solution for it which does not involve nerfing weapon range. Hmm, do you think being able to warp to an opponent directly (ie: 30 - 50km) will change the way large combat works? Will it bring the engagement range closer?
Miss Overlord Gallente Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2006.09.02 07:15:00 - [73] mmm used to be able to warp to 150km + direct to ships now they make it gang mates (getting cloaked ship otherside of gang and warping to is a honed skill for small 10v10 type engagements)
Mordu skal Do Or Die And Live Or Try Genesis Industrial Foundation	Posted - 2006.09.02 07:38:00 - [74] Some good proposals butt it still more beneficial to bring more ships then your opponent (lag) even if there's splash damage or restricted targetting, you just need some more distance between ships and have more target callers. For the long range battles you could introduce some kind of mobile shield generators that reduce damage going thru them like 75%, they could have a diameter of 15km and only one friendly in a range of 150km could be deployed. Ships could still go thru them so you need to get close range to do real damage. Probly have to make it a bit easier to warp to it. As to blob's the only thing that would stop it really is putting in a maximum friendly ship count in the same grid within the server code. --------------------------------------------- I have no idea
booh	Posted - 2006.09.02 07:46:00 - [75] One thing is the lag. Warp orders should be top priority in comunication from client to server. Other thing is... well you can only neutralize an enemy ship by jamming or destroying it. You can't do dmg to weapon system, propulsion systems, targeting systems... The safest way is to destroy the whole ship and you don't have to worry about it anymore (200m lost in 10s and you can't do anything to prevent it). If the ships would have much more HP as they have now, and if you could "neutralize" them by shooting their gun arrays, then it wouldn't be necesary to destroy it right away. On the other hand, the targeted ship would have time to repair itself, his guns or whatever systems got damaged (Scotty, you have 5 minutes to get the guns working!). Destroy their guns or propulsion? Hard choice. If you go for guns they warp away, if for propulsion they are a sitting duck but still can shoot you... ^^ this would give FCs time to play their tactics and get 2 hour lasting battles :)
Littleluk The Ancient Order Imperium Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.02 07:49:00 - [76] Actually I am impressed with this spin. A fancy new direction and a reduction of blobbing??? NAH I think not. I suspect the real culprit here is the plain fact that ummm 200 on 200 battles are utter lagfests and there is no easy solution. Well the obvious solutions are removing bookmarks and increasing the database etc. Of course your trying those as well. This is an interesting way to try and get back to the gangs of 20 on 20 though. Want some easy ways to make ships spread out a bit more... Warp to... any ship over 200km away. Doesn't matter if it is ganged or not. If the computers can track it to shoot they should be able to compute flying to the darn thing if they can do the same job to a gang member. Place some tactical accuracy into tracking. Small ships going in circles can track easily.. their guns dont move, the ship does. Consider adding some detrimental effects from massive ship proximity. ie reduced targeting range and speed. Maybe a 10 percent reduction every 20 ships within 20 km. Signals would certainly get difficult to read with 100 other signals from other ships bouncing around in space real close to you. But give us the whole story. As in how alliance out in the depths of space are going to fight these epic battles to defend their space against a horde of invaders where both sides can fight. The guns shoot, the mods turn on etc when you push the buttons. I think that has to be the end goal and we can certainly accept whatever design decisions you have to make to restore that option but it would be nice to hear the core problems. Everyone needs a little luk.
Plutoinum German Cyberdome Corp Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.09.02 08:59:00 - [77] Edited by: Plutoinum on 02/09/2006 08:59:27 Nice blog, it shows all the problems focussed fire in blobs, also that it's difficult to avoid it, if every BS has a combat range from 0 to >200km and tracking is the only limiting factor. Tracking is usually still enough to hit other mid-/long-range BS that at any range, so it doesn't help here. Good luck to tear the blobs apart and make fights more interesting/longer and tactics more deverse.
Wilfan Ret'nub Singularity.	Posted - 2006.09.02 09:09:00 - [78] Some musings about the blog: First, a lot of people missed the subject of the blog. It's not the size of the fleet fights, but the tactic trying to make whole group act as one ubersized battleship by using focused fire. See: Originally by: Tuxford I'm not talking about the blob that comes up on the map where you have 200+ ships crammed in the same solar system, I'm talking about the blob where those 200 ships are crammed in to the same 10km radius sphere. Why this tactic is so effective? It follows Lanchester Square Law (introduction, real deal) to the letter. Unlike modern combat there's no limiting force conentration, fatigue, different weapon ranges, friendly fire, combined arms approach, battle of maneuver ... Current blobwars are just a straightforward slugfest between two groups of long range battleships. Then Tux gets an idea: Originally by: Tuxford Whats the disadvantage of having a blob formation? Not much really, theoretically you could warp in a group of closer range ships and use your transversal to keep the blob's damage down and use the superior damage output to kill the opponent's ships. Too bad he doesn't elaborate. Why don't we see this tactic used? Not for the lack of trying. I've been in a few fleet fights where we tried this and I've heard of a few attempts by others. The problems are getting into range (covops take time, to warp to popped enemy's can you need to pop one first), holding the enemy in place (getting the intredictor in place, sphere can be smartbombed, aligned fleet warps very fast) and the high damage of arties/beams/rails with short range ammo. There's also the psychological upside to the blob: it's much easier to command than a close range furball. then Tux goes on about the ways to split the blob. I think this is just a partial solution. What's needed is to bring the diversity of small group combat to fleet fights, not just splitting the blob. Blob fight is a blob fight, whether there's one or 5 of them. And the directions he mentions are not promising. Potent AoE weapons would be the best gift to (macro) mission runners. Formation flight is fine, but we first need an incentive to use it. Directional defenses? We'll see, but I can't get the image of Gungan army from my head. ------ No ISK, no fun
Liu Kaskakka PAK	Posted - 2006.09.02 09:18:00 - [79] Make missiles (like they used to) and turret fire hit stuff that's on their way to target - problem solved. Empire wars impossible coz of concordokken? Well, tough *****, pick your shots more carefully. More lag? Well, fix teh game!!! King Liu is RIGHT!!
Cosy Ceaon Gallente Porandor	Posted - 2006.09.02 09:40:00 - [80] make a module that anchor( whit time delay & countdown) the ship get incase the rof and make dmg @ target ( few KM ) and u get a machinegun-ship some like real life machineguns
Sean Dillon Caldari Shadows of the Dead Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2006.09.02 09:48:00 - [81] Fix the lagg first, then blobbing. Thank you.
Kunming Amarr adeptus gattacus Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.09.02 10:14:00 - [82] If the range nerf comes in, one thing is for sure, it will seperate the men from the boys Oh and AoE weapons would be excellent tools for dreads in siege mode, you gotta either fit for anti-POS or anti-Fleet. (I'll just ignore the arrogancy of caldari pilots wanting to be the only ones using AoEs.)
Helison Gallente Times of Ancar R i s e	Posted - 2006.09.02 10:33:00 - [83] I am all for a MASSIVE increase of structure-HP of all ships and for using item-damage (including sub-system targeting) Neither the shield or the armor should be able to tank a massive fleet. But the structure should be able to hold a long time, till it goes boom. But while the structure takes damage, the ship systems get worse and worse. With using of sub-system targeting it should be possible for specialised weapons (perhaps special role for assault frigs?) to damage modules even if the shield is still up. This approach would be really needed for Capital Ships (it should be very difficult to destroy them with a BS-fleet, but possible to damage them), but it would also help smaller ships a lot.
Hermia HIVE	Posted - 2006.09.02 10:33:00 - [84] I agree with tux's observations but his ponderings on how blob warfare "could" be fixed im not sure about. Mechanics designed to fix problems by limiting attributes and their effects is far less elegant than design of better game play. so i dont like seeing too much of: More hitpoints, reduction in range, incapacitate modes, and all that talk about penalty for focus fire is really stupid. Some of these are worth exploring, but as stand alown fixes they are cheap and nasty! It seems that Tux only wants to address the mass fleet warp-in, that splitting up the blob is only about avoiding the big crunch of ships into a tiny space. Surely the biggest problem is the reason why blobs have to form in the first place (In the same grid) Having too many people in the same grid presents for me the biggest problem with eve game play. The fact that alliance warfare on huge swathes of 0.0 is locallised to only a handfull of grids is pathetic gameplay. I think the problem is tied with how space is taken over and how many stratetic points on the map there are, not random stat changing. If we are ever going to get full scale warfare, than the problem will most likely be fixed when you guys install proper player made infrastructure, coupled with methods to nurture squad level combat by making it more effienct for conquest.
Helison Gallente Times of Ancar R i s e	Posted - 2006.09.02 10:35:00 - [85] Edited by: Helison on 02/09/2006 10:35:42 delete, double post
Wheya Amarr Bruderschaft des Wahrhaftigen	Posted - 2006.09.02 10:51:00 - [86] I am very happy to see Tux talking about the problems that needs to be fixed. Finding solutions, which can work without too much stressing the servers, seems to be very difficult. I have thought about this problem for a long time but unfortunatly each time I have had an idea I found drawbacks. To implement splash damage from torps is such an idea with drawbacks. 1. Under certain circumstances this could make the Raven the most powerfull fleet combat ship. That's a new ship balance issue. 2. Splash damage used for pod killing was a huge advantage for torp users in the past. I like the idea of Kunming. Dreads with AoE weapons. Unfortunatly this would not stop concentrated fire. It would only stop concentrated blobs. The range of the AeE would have to be huge and therefore most likely way too powerful to take real effect. My vision of fleet combat would be if game mechanics encourage a lot of 1:1 and 2:1 fights because in that new environment that's the most effective way to do the most damage. I think fleets should have many frigates as tacklers and many cruisers to fight this tacklers. On the other hand carriers will find their role on the frontline in such an environment. Regardless of the new hope this blog gave to me let's not forget other problems. Blobbing was invented for a reason. If every battleship can safely slowboat to the next stargate even without instas because concentrated fire is no longer effective then we have a new problem.
Deviana Sevidon Gallente easyCredits O X I D E	Posted - 2006.09.02 11:06:00 - [87] One possibility would be to bring combat away from gates and POS and to certain environments. Like forcing them to fight in areas that create advantages to some ships and disadvantages to others. I.E: Plasma Storm. All Ships inside suffer from a greatly decreased sensor-range and there is also a random chance that a ship is being struck by a random bolt of energy while inside the cloud and taking massive damage. When a ship is hit, all ships nearby (perhaps 10km radius) also suffer from AoE Damage. The chance of being hit is based on the signature radius. Small ships are less likely being hit because of their smaller Sig. and take less damage. While it should be fairly safe to bring in Frigs or Cruiser sized Ships, engaging a MWD or even bringing in a BS with MWD is highly dangerous. The biggest problems I see is to force both sides to fight not at a stargate but instead in such an environment.
Dark Chasm	Posted - 2006.09.02 11:19:00 - [88] Edited by: Dark Chasm on 02/09/2006 11:22:46 I tend to agree with Wheya (2 posts up) There is no easy solution to this and it's good that it's being adressed. Moreso a problem is the RPG effect, do what u wanna do with close to no restrictions. If the game starts telling us how to do fleet battles, we'll end up with a WoW type of game, where tactics are handed out and so on. I can only imagine how difficult it is for al the devs in that respect. Giving items such as ECM, gang bonusses, warfare link modules and so on a minimum distance so that only above that distance they have an effect sounds reasonable, but I'm sure they thought of that already. it would seem to fix blobbing (and possibly ECM) I'm not convinced however that concentrated firepower should be fixed or even can be. It is almost always the basic strategy for any combat situation where u need multiple shots/salvo's to take out an enemy. DC NB: maybe cloaking can do something ? it would be very cool to have entire fleets just come out of thin air
Gloria Stitz	Posted - 2006.09.02 11:19:00 - [89] Of all the possible solutions, the only one that isn't going to cause balance issues is a limit on gang size. Maybe introduce a skill for making a larger gang. But what size of gang would work to still be effective, whilst lessening focus fire? 12? 20? It doesn't take too many BS to instapop a single BS
Reptile Minmatar The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2006.09.02 11:36:00 - [90] Edited by: Reptile on 02/09/2006 11:38:21 Well I don't usually comment much on the forums, but I must voice my concern of doing something as drastic as nerfing range in EVE. I dont think that is the problem nor will it solve the 'blob'. What I do agree is that the game is missing AOE weapons which has the potential (depending on the implementation) to really discourage people from forming huge groups. Those blobs could be taken out by a smaller number of ships through AOE weapons (e.g. 5 ships specialized on AOE severly damaging a group of 50 or 60). This would discourage blobing imho and you would probably have less blobs (since blobs would mean juicy targets and killmails to some) Also, with AOE weapons you would automatically force people to engage at shorter ranges to avoid the deployment of any AOE attacked.

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