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Eliminating gate camping - good solution to make pirates have to work.

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Zorok Synergy Syndicate EntroPraetorian Aegis	Posted - 2006.09.02 19:41:00 - [1] As you know, T2 haulers were created with the intent to make them harder to get at gate camps. Sadly with the insta-lock bonuses, they are also an easy target and their cargo capacity leaves much to be desired (why did you do this CCP?). As a permanent solution to the problem I suggest a high-powered module that is a true invulnerability field. It can only be used at 15 sec intervals (30 sec delay in-between) and can only be activated within 15km of a gate. Once activated the ship using it can't be targeted and all locks are broken. A very powerful energy shell is formed around the ship as it pulls power from the jumpgate itself to run. Due to this thick energy shell, the ship using it can't target anything. The only thing a ship using this can do is warp (hopefully using navigation mode as suggested in my other post). This would make pirates have to go after hard-to-get targets. The only way they could possibly catch the ship is if they have a warp dsruptor running and hope that the ship can't escape the bubble before the 15 sec timer runs out. Otherwise good luck! Let's make pirating more of a challenge instead of them waiting like a bunch of hungry wolves waiting outside the chicken coop for a chicken to somehow fly over the fence and tear it apart. It's a cheap and they know it works so they will continue to use this tactic until CCP gives a single player more options to deal with this kind of threat. My two-prong solution would make 0.0 less of a risk for new players and allow those in empire to spread out in safety. The reason no one in empire wants to leave is because anyone and their brother will gank you in 0.0 at the gates. I forsee this module working similar to a covert-ops claoking device except this device will consume 80% of total PG on most ships (preventing war ships from using this as an offensive tactic) An attack ship could use this module but it wouldn't be able to carry many weapons. A hauler or covert-ops on the other hand will only take a slight penalty allowing it to make full use of defensive modules.
Zorok Synergy Syndicate EntroPraetorian Aegis	Posted - 2006.09.02 19:44:00 - [2] One other item I would propose... If a alliance/corp has soverty in the constellation a ship not part of this alliance can't pull power from the gate. They can only pull power from jumpgates in neutral and friendly systems.
Stilgar Fifrawi	Posted - 2006.09.02 19:56:00 - [3] If a bubble is being used on a gate then I'm sure its not pirates your talking about, but instead hostiles who are currently 'owning' that system or gate as it would be 0.0. The idea of 0.0 is to make it lawless and subject to hostile activity. I'm sure a win-win module for haulers (which are just ships to move stuff) is a bad idea. The point your missing is that haulers are not be soloing around lowsec/0.0 systems as they should use scouts and escort ships....if the scout indicates that the system is not safe then you do not jump, or your escort busts the camp long enough for you to get through. Ever thought about extra stabs, nanofibers to align quicker, jammers to prevent being targeted, plates and shield extenders to last long enough or even a cloak. Elite industrials were not designed to be able to move through dangerous areas at free will, but were designed to give you a better fighting chance.
Zorok Synergy Syndicate EntroPraetorian Aegis	Posted - 2006.09.02 19:59:00 - [4] Actually in the sond post I dealt with the sovernty issue. If an alliance owns a 0.0 area, other ships will be unable to use the jumpgate. Until CCP does something to fix this issue, themajority will continue to stay in empire. Making excuses for PvPers won't bring more players into 0.0.
Zorok Synergy Syndicate EntroPraetorian Aegis	Posted - 2006.09.02 20:05:00 - [5] BTW jamming in a hauler is a bad idea, you then get an aggro timer and can't jump. Every pirate knows that haulers are easy targets and they should not be rewarded for being lazy. Gate camping doesn't take any skill- I should know this as my previous corp would do this often just out of boredom.
Pestillence Contraband Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2006.09.02 21:50:00 - [6] Sounds like a switch turn turn off pvp.
Zorok Synergy Syndicate EntroPraetorian Aegis	Posted - 2006.09.02 22:01:00 - [7] Nope because the ship would still be vulnerable to warp bubbles and interdictors. Only pirates of course would object (this is the gravy train for them!)
Cattraknoff Caldari Sha Kharn Corp Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.02 22:19:00 - [8] Edited by: Cattraknoff on 02/09/2006 22:19:46 Not a pirate and still object, invulnerability is bad. A good setup camp should be able to catch people, that is the purpose of scouts, to find the camps that you aren't able to safely get by. EDIT: a small note, I despise gate camping in general, but it's a part of the game, and at least keeps people on their toes.
Zorok Synergy Syndicate EntroPraetorian Aegis	Posted - 2006.09.02 22:32:00 - [9] It doesn't do anything except an "I win" button for pirate blobs. There is absolutely nothing a skilled pilot can do in situations where you are outnumbered. Keep in mind that the ship isn't truly invulnerable and it can't attack while using this shell. Pirates can still camp the gates and can still catch ships if they are using a warp bubble or interdictor. Please read all the comments. A well thought out camp will still be able to catch ships. It will just be the end of these lazy people who sit at the gate waiting for the gravy train to come through so to speak. If a pilot can't do anything in his power to save himselfat the moment, it needs to be fixed. Furthermore, until a system like this is implemented, everyone will continue to stay in empire. This contradicts what CCP wants so let's think of way to make this possible instead of saying "It's necessary" or "It's the I win button". CCP wants more people in 0.0 plain and simple. Giving people a fighting chance is the only way they will willingly go there- otherwise mining in 1.0 is way too profitable and the risk/reward of mining/hauling in 0.0 is just not worth it.
Zorok Synergy Syndicate EntroPraetorian Aegis	Posted - 2006.09.02 22:33:00 - [10] By the way Ascendant Frontier is a pirate alliance...They of course will object to anything that will ruin their insta lock gate camp setups...They do, in fact have an insa lock that not even an atron can get past.
Cattraknoff Caldari Sha Kharn Corp Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.02 22:57:00 - [11] Originally by: Zorok Edited by: Zorok on 02/09/2006 22:46:21 By the way Ascendant Frontier is a pirate alliance...They of course will object to anything that will ruin their insta lock gate camp setups...They do, in fact have an insta lock setup that not even an atron can get past. My ship was destroyed and I was podded faster than you could say "What's going on?". There's not much besides a fleet that could get past a camp like that. If they own that region, Iwould say sure defend your space, but this was not the case. With my idea, ships could use this shell at jump gates that are either in neutral or friendly territory. This allows the defenders to still be able to defend legitamitely. We are not a pirate alliance, many can vouch for that. We do, however, have an NBSI policy in our home regions as well as some pirate-enemy infested ones. Some members do camp gates, but that at least keeps our enemies at bay, and thats our sole purpose. Most corps/alliances operating in areas we PvP can contact our diplomats for blue standings to avoid shootings. What pirates allow most anbody to become blue? Our alliance doesn't allow piracy, but we do enforce our borders, and we do have to try to hurt our enemy supply lines (even if a few neutrals get caught in the crossfire) But this isn't the place to discusss our policy. On topic, You really wont die to a camp if you get a friend to scout for you. That is the way around it. Eve is a team game, like it or not, CCP intentionally made it harder and harder to solo (you can still do it, it's just harder) Working togeather with others will help you survive. I personally havn't been ganked by a gate camp in a long time, often without stabs. You just need to learn to avoid them. If it isnt at jump-in, you can see them in local, and then warp to something near the gate and scan. If they aren't, well the only way is to send a scout or just hope for the best. I think the jump in range being increased would help things, right now a dictor bubble on the gate can stop anyone from warping off. You should always travel with a MWD on, if the jump-in is camped, the best way to survive is to head back for the gate, mwd on, and hope you get enough momentum to make it there. (I've gotten out like this a few times)
Vastatorex	Posted - 2006.09.02 23:04:00 - [12] I am deeply concerned about the whole concept of eliminating gate camps. Gate camps arent something designed, just a tactic employed and allowed in the game. Sure they suck when you gt caught in one, but its a big bad galaxy out there, so be careful! You cant just ban them because they make life difficult. Thats part of the fun...seriously. I enjoy running a camp, after having spent some time scouting it. BM's and they way they are implemented is problem, not whay they do. Pls dont confuse the issue.
Zorok Synergy Syndicate EntroPraetorian Aegis	Posted - 2006.09.02 23:11:00 - [13] Well actually the real issue is the fact that the majority of the community in Eve won't go near 0.0 and with good reason. Gate camps are prevalent throughout 0.0 as well as low-sec systems. I'm only saying that if CCP wishes more people to go into 0.0 they need a real solution. To say that gate camps belong in the game you may as well give up on the idea of most people venturing out into 0.0. At the gate camp I encountered personally, my ship was destroyed within two fast volleys of a destroyer. There was nothing I could have done. The first hit brought me into structure with only 20%. They had bigger ships at the camp to deal with anything larger. There was nothing a solo pilot can do. Let's face it, most of the players solo or not are not going to take the risk of going into low sec/ 0.0 due to these reasons. Anyone who says that gate camps are a feauture may as well tell CCP they don't want the population dispursed throughout 0.0 because things will stay the same unless something in the game changes. I'm only to help facilitate CCPs goal. i haven't heard anyone propose any suggestions- only complaints about my proposal.
Cattraknoff Caldari Sha Kharn Corp Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.02 23:18:00 - [14] Practically every time I make the transition to 0.0 from empire, I survive, and this isn't including a system with a friendly camp. People will come to 0.0 when they're ready, it really isn't that hard to get out here. All you need is a scout, many routes into 0.0 aren'tcamped all that often, and there's usually a time of the day where that route is camped only 5% of the time. People need to be smarter about coming down.
Zorok Synergy Syndicate EntroPraetorian Aegis	Posted - 2006.09.02 23:46:00 - [15] The only problem though is that they aren't coming out to 0.0. CCP has seen this as an issue and that's why they stated they want more dispursion into 0.0
Siege Minmatar Siegecraft Bounty Hunting	Posted - 2006.09.02 23:54:00 - [16] It's not that they aren't coming to 0.0, at least in the areas I operate the 0.0 space is fairly active. No, you don't have 50+ people per system, but you do have regular traffic and regular combat. But players aren't really well distributed in empire and low-sec space either. You see a couple hundred minimum in Jita, pretty close to the same at Rens, but I pass through empire systems on a regular basis with only 2 or 3 people in local. Before worrying so much about getting them into 0.0, you need to get them to get out of Jita.
Cattraknoff Caldari Sha Kharn Corp Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.03 00:03:00 - [17] The new regions will either allow new people to settle there, or old alliances will and leave their homes behind, either way there'll be more room for people in 0.0 ASCN, as an example, at the moment has high populations throughout its space, with only a few systems without regular people rattings or whatever there. There's traffic through most systems. Some areas are actually even getting overcrowded. In 0.0, you don't have agent missions (except in stain and such) so the only things you can really do is rat and mine, either way there isn't room for TOO many (ratting being able to have maybe 10 people (in the systems with the most belts), and thats if you're each chaining a spawn) However, some areas of 0.0 are pretty dead, mainly because they aren't that rich, or aren't very developed. 0.0 offers the best rewards in the game (isk wise [excluding the people who get the omgwtfuber t2 bpos]) and it's a lot of fun in most cases. There is every reason to come here, the only thing stopping people is the general stereotypical views "carebears" have of anything non-0.5+ They need to test the water, and they can't just go by their one bad experience of being ganked on the way in. The best way into 0.0 is to join an alliance, as they'll usually help you with the transition.
Sovereign533 Caldari 133rd Ghost Wing R i s e	Posted - 2006.09.03 00:20:00 - [18] Originally by: Zorok It doesn't do anything except an "I win" button for pirate blobs. (didn't read the rest because it will probaly be as much ** ** as the first sentice) well, it's hardly an "I win" button... because camping a gate with multiple ships/ppl... doesn't mean you would win... i was once as an escort, scouting and securing the way for an Obelisk... when we returned, we landed in a gate camp... we overshot the gate with 16km and all the pirates warped off as fast as they could... we blew up the bubble, and another ship of them... well, bye bye gatecamp... i havent saw a gatecamp of them anymore that day... i also seen this from the other side, we were sitting at the gate, an enemy gang warped in... and unfortunatly kicked our asses... didn't really care because stuff like this happened... and gate camping is for the bored... because all you do is sitting at a gate, waiting for someone comes from behind you or the cov ops scout spots someone jumping in... and ofc the huge number of blockade runner indy's escaping and shuttles warping faster then you can lock and scramble them... not to mention the difficulty to place a bubble correctly... and in time ofc... just like Interdictor bubbles... how often did i see ppl escaping from those bubbles because of the place where they jumped in... >_<
Zorok Synergy Syndicate EntroPraetorian Aegis	Posted - 2006.09.03 03:36:00 - [19] Quote: well, it's hardly an "I win" button... because camping a gate with multiple ships/ppl... doesn't mean you would win... i was once as an escort, scouting and securing the way for an Obelisk... when we returned, we landed in a gate camp... we overshot the gate with 16km and all the pirates warped off as fast as they could... we blew up the bubble, and another ship of them... well, bye bye gatecamp... i havent saw a gatecamp of them anymore that day... Actually it is an I-win button vs smaller ships through sensor linking and sensor boosting modules. A destroyer killed my ship in 2 vollys...there was nothing anyone could do in that time frame. The lock was instantaneous with my ship decloaking upon beginning warp at a camped gate.
Sovereign533 Caldari 133rd Ghost Wing R i s e	Posted - 2006.09.03 20:53:00 - [20] well, i'm amazed... this guy is fast... and what ship were you flying? shuttle? no way he could have locked you... Blockade runner? no way he could have killed you in 2 volly's... frigate? well, destroyers are designed to insta-kill frigates...
Zorok Synergy Syndicate EntroPraetorian Aegis	Posted - 2006.09.03 22:36:00 - [21] Yeah.. I was flying an atron at the time fitted with nano-fiber mods to help bring the ship to warp faster (agility bonus) even with two of these named modules equipped, this did nothing to save me. :-/
Aliniel Vitissun	Posted - 2006.09.05 20:28:00 - [22] Wouldn't making a module that makes you invincible 1/3 of the time be a powerful tool for gatecampers to tank sentry guns? The targeting break isn't going to work because people who are already splitting damage between each other can stagger their activations so that at least one person always has the target locked and webbed/scrambled.
Kraven Kor Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e	Posted - 2006.09.05 22:06:00 - [23] Originally by: Zorok BTW jamming in a hauler is a bad idea, you then get an aggro timer and can't jump. Every pirate knows that haulers are easy targets and they should not be rewarded for being lazy. Gate camping doesn't take any skill- I should know this as my previous corp would do this often just out of boredom. And you should be rewarded for not thinking ahead and bringing a scout, or better yet, some friends to blow up the pirates (or at least chase them away)??? You say the pirates are lazy or cheap or cowardly for sitting on a gate waiting on unescorted haulers. I say you are lazy and lack forethought for allowing yourself to get in the predicament of facing a gatecamp in an unescorted hauler. (Oh, and we are one of the farthest things from a pirate corp out there, and we gatecamp a lot. We also don't lose many haulers, since we actually think ahead and make sure we have scouts, escorts, and a little thing I like to call "a clue.") Simply put: No. Strength through Unity, Discipline, and Honor!
Kraven Kor Sturmgrenadier Inc R i s e	Posted - 2006.09.05 22:10:00 - [24] The "real solution" for getting people to 0.0 -- that so many people talk about -- already exists. It is called teamwork. If you don't have the firepower to overcome a gate camp, well, guess what? You can't go to that system. Come back with more guns (or at a time when they aren't camping. Very rarely do you have a 23/7 gatecamp.) The tools to beat any tactic in EVE exist, if you just take the time to learn them and use them. Strength through Unity, Discipline, and Honor!
Veetor Gallente Acme Manufacturing	Posted - 2006.09.05 22:16:00 - [25] Lose the gate camps. I am not an advocate of games following reality to closely, it should at least be in sight and within commom sense. No person, organization, or group would ever invest billions into a gate only to have it sit by idly in the middle of a war zone. The gates should insta blast any aggressors for 200 km around. (pretty sure they have the cap for it) My greatest achievement is constantly being underestimated.
Areconus	Posted - 2006.09.05 22:18:00 - [26] Originally by: Zorok Edited by: Zorok on 02/09/2006 22:46:21 By the way Ascendant Frontier is a pirate alliance...They of course will object to anything that will ruin their insta lock gate camp setups...They do, in fact have an insta lock setup that not even an atron can get past. My ship was destroyed and I was podded faster than you could say "What's going on?". There's not much besides a fleet that could get past a camp like that. If they own that region, Iwould say sure defend your space, but this was not the case. With my idea, ships could use this shell at jump gates that are either in neutral or friendly territory. This allows the defenders to still be able to defend legitamitely. LOL
Veetor Gallente Acme Manufacturing	Posted - 2006.09.05 22:29:00 - [27] Of course CCP could fix the ships. Open up all module slots while leaving the cap/cpu the same. Then I could have a "battlestations" mode and not feel like a sheep every time I go on a supply run because my ship is set up for "safe traveling" and only that till I get home. This would mean more and fairer fights for the piwates and more loot when they win. I would have a lot more fun at being able to effectively respond to unexpected situations. Would be a blast. My greatest achievement is constantly being underestimated.
Nanobotter Mk2	Posted - 2006.09.05 23:04:00 - [28] I will say this, I do not like the invuln field, just has too many implications for the game beyond PVP, that need to be rebalanced. You did hit a big problem imho which is the insta locking crap. the mods that speed up locking times work to dam good. When you got BS 200km awya locking in ~1 sec you got game balance issues.
Reggie Stoneloader	Posted - 2006.09.05 23:12:00 - [29] Originally by: Veetor as far as the "bring a friend" thing goes...I dont do co-dependancy, and I should not have to as I am a paying customer and computer games are not high priority in my group of friends. I have learned the hard way to trust no one in EVE. If you don't cooperate with other people, then you can't expect to stand alone against those that do. As a paying customer, you are entitled to play the game. You are not entitled to win it, to be good at it, or to enjoy it. EvE is based on interpersonal competition. It's the state of nature out there. If you don't enjoy competing in that arena, take your subscription fee and go see two movies a month. Don't make unreasonable demands on the developers and community and expect them to change their vision just to accomodate your desire to derive maximum benefit from a system by virtue of your mere presence.
Veetor Gallente Acme Manufacturing	Posted - 2006.09.06 01:04:00 - [30] Dont believe I made any "demands" there Reggie. My greatest achievement is constantly being underestimated.

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