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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1182
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Posted - 2014.12.02 16:20:39 -
[1] - Quote
Lord Echon wrote:While I prefer the new clone system in Rhea compared to the old one, I think a compromise would have been even better. If you had made clone upgrades permanent (meaning a pilot with Clone Grade XI would still have XI after being podded), you could have reduced the death penalty instead of removing it. This still creates a bunch of busywork that you have to keep track of which has no real benefit to the user. They are trying to eliminate that sort of thing when it is glaringly obvious, like it is in this case.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1182
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Posted - 2014.12.02 17:40:31 -
[2] - Quote
Medalyn Isis wrote:Judging from some of the posts by players in this thread, I believe there are many other games which would be better suited to themselves other than eve.
What I am basically reading is people basically want to remove all consequences from the game.
Leave eve as one of the few niche game where consequences matter, there are plenty of other games for people who don't like consequences. You are overreacting. Death still has plenty of consequence. In fact, it retains ALL the consequence it used to have GÇö-áthe current system doesn't actually introduce any consequence. The current system just means you have to remember to do a little bit of busywork every time you die. There's not a meaningful choice or any sort of skill involved in remembering to update your clone. Removing the mechanic is unabashedly positive.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1182
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Posted - 2014.12.02 17:45:28 -
[3] - Quote
Medalyn Isis wrote:Querns wrote:Medalyn Isis wrote:Judging from some of the posts by players in this thread, I believe there are many other games which would be better suited to themselves other than eve.
What I am basically reading is people basically want to remove all consequences from the game.
Leave eve as one of the few niche game where consequences matter, there are plenty of other games for people who don't like consequences. You are overreacting. Death still has plenty of consequence. In fact, it retains ALL the consequence it used to have GÇö-áthe current system doesn't actually introduce any consequence. The current system just means you have to remember to do a little bit of busywork every time you die. There's not a meaningful choice or any sort of skill involved in remembering to update your clone. Removing the mechanic is unabashedly positive. Quintessen wrote:Good change overall. Now I'd like to see other penalties removed that prevent people from playing the game itself. I'm thinking standings penalties for missions for factions you care about. I'm thinking about standings loss from faction warfare. So Querns, you agree with stuff like this? I'm not talking about the removal of clones, but some of the other suggestions which players are coming up with in this thread. I don't agree that what you're quoting there is even remotely relevant to this discussion. There is no slippery slope here GÇö-áI'd ask that you refrain from trying to introduce one.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1182
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Posted - 2014.12.02 18:05:01 -
[4] - Quote
Medalyn Isis wrote: Well before throwing out supposedly "dumb" mechanics which have been a pillar of eve for over ten years, perhaps an alternative should be implemented instead of this knee jerk and equally idiotic stance of lets just throw everything out that makes eve harsh.
What you consider random and vicious, is actually quite easy to avoid, it is only random if you don't know what you are doing as in the case of newbies who soon learn.
As for standing they have already implemented a safety net so you can grind your standing back up from below -2, and if you have completely wrecked them and then want to work with an opposing faction, well tough luck, either grind them back up from level 1 agents or HTFU and stick with your current factions that you have good standings with.
There is nothing random about any of the penalties you mentioned, and all can be easily avoided.
The fact that it is easy to avoid is precisely why it is being removed GÇö-áthere is no nuance to clone grades, and the penalty is so severe that there is no choice to comply. It adds no nuance and requires no skill to mitigate, nor any sort of long term planning GÇö it's just this constant burden that you can never forget about, ever.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1186
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Posted - 2014.12.02 18:11:52 -
[5] - Quote
Medalyn Isis wrote:EvilweaselFinance wrote:Medalyn Isis wrote: Well before throwing out supposedly "dumb" mechanics which have been a pillar of eve for over ten years, perhaps an alternative should be implemented instead of this knee jerk and equally idiotic stance of lets just throw everything out that makes eve harsh.
What you consider random and vicious, is actually quite easy to avoid, it is only random if you don't know what you are doing as in the case of newbies who soon learn.
this is the sort of stupid eve design heresy that should be called out and hits nearly every aspect 1) because a thing is a certain way it should remain that way 2) using "harsh" or "sandbox" in a talismanic way without actually understanding what it means and how it interacts with design 3) using "well you can learn the stupid unfun obtruse mechanism that makes it tolerable" What you miss, is I didn't say the mechanics cannot be improved upon. I'm in favour of replacing the medical clone mechanic with something better as at the moment it is pretty terrible. Improving mechanics does not mean you need to completely throw them out though as the posters had been suggesting in the quotes I linked. So standing penalites are harsh, answer = lets scrap standings. Medical clone mechanic doesn't offer interesting choices = lets scrap medical clones. I don't like losing implants when podded = lets remove attributes so everyone is on a level playing field. That mentality is completely wrong for the game which is what I stated, and there are already plenty of other games for players who think like this. The problem with this is that you're conflating completely unrelated things. You're imagining a slippery slope that simply does not exist.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1188
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Posted - 2014.12.02 18:18:06 -
[6] - Quote
Medalyn Isis wrote:Lol, well I linked the posts which were calling for these things to be scrapped in the thread earlier, so not sure how much more factual you want. You're not the only one making this mistake, is what I am saying.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1188
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Posted - 2014.12.02 18:19:00 -
[7] - Quote
King Fu Hostile wrote: No, you are not making a case for removing it, only listing reasons why it could be improved.
Agreed GÇö-áand removing it completely, in this instance, is the best improvement that can be made.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1188
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Posted - 2014.12.02 18:20:17 -
[8] - Quote
Pic'n dor wrote:Do you plan to add a medical bay to every NPC stations since upgrading a clone is no more an issue after podkill ?
This will make again non medical NPC station a valuable home system for players.
As you removed remote home system setup, you can no longer setup you home station in a non medical npc station unless once a year if your corp has an office. If you deploy somewhere else within a year you can't change your home... so bad..
It seems you have stumbled upon one of the intended consequences of the power projection damping changes made in Phoebe.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1188
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Posted - 2014.12.02 18:31:01 -
[9] - Quote
Eugene Kerner wrote:I lost 13 pods so far (killed 910 give or take). I hardly get out of my slave set (Santo trafficante can tell) so clone costs are not the issue rather than implant costs. Make corpses a ressource (salvageable) that can be salvaged that would spark a whole new profession. What more motivation for a empire carebear than salvaging some pirats corpse is there to finally dare to go to low sec? Head hunter actually would mean something. This could also work in pve. Place some frozen corpses in exploration sites or wormhole sites (Jove went into cryo-sleep...would fit into lore to stage some "malfunctions".
I guess you thought that through so I expect some mitigation that makes death still mean something.
I've always thought this was a good idea GÇö-áthe idea of folks scrambling to loot and/or salvage corpses during gatecamps always felt like a fun, if ghoulish, thing that could be added. Doing it this way means that the spoils almost always go to the aggressors rather than the person who lost the stuff, which is an added bonus in my book.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1188
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Posted - 2014.12.02 18:40:55 -
[10] - Quote
SFM Hobb3s wrote:As much as I will like not having to worry about clone costs any more, CCP seems to have overlooked the strategic and tactical implications this change will have.
CCP has unwittingly undone a positive combat change implemented with Phoebe with this move. With Phoebe, because you can no longer remotely move your deathclone, it was possible to incap station medical services (made easier with Phoebe), which would prevent any smart player from undocking again if they had gotten killed and podded.
This is something that would be pretty useful given the hideous state of sov warfare, especially with several hundred combatants in the system, and now it will be gone. This would have meant more if it were possible to incap NPC 0.0 medical services.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1188
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Posted - 2014.12.02 18:46:15 -
[11] - Quote
King Fu Hostile wrote:Querns wrote:King Fu Hostile wrote: No, you are not making a case for removing it, only listing reasons why it could be improved.
Agreed GÇö-áand removing it completely, in this instance, is the best improvement that can be made. Unfortunately it doesn't actually improve anything. No new gameplay, choices or benefits are created with the removal. Sure it does GÇö-áit allows people with large amounts of SP to more readily fly smaller, more vulnerable ships. You benefit from not having to have this little bit of pointless domain knowledge at the forefront of your mind every time you die. You benefit from not losing SP due to forgetting a pointless thing.
There is no mastery involved with clone costs. They are just a thing you have to remember to do in an environment with no time or financial pressure.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1189
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Posted - 2014.12.02 20:40:13 -
[12] - Quote
Bagrat Skalski wrote:inexpewpewienced You're not very good at making portmanteaus.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1189
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Posted - 2014.12.02 20:52:06 -
[13] - Quote
So many slippery slopes attempting to be erected in this thread. Please stop.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1190
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Posted - 2014.12.02 21:28:34 -
[14] - Quote
Mikkymisodonlow wrote:So this is certainly starting to sound like EVE is going in the direction of Call of duty. Die, respawn, die, respawn, die, respawn..... with no consequences or cost or even the remote ability to use that thing rattling around inside your skull to prevent you from making a regrettable mistake. but isnt that what makes this game fun?
So as someone said, EVE is becoming less of a hardcore game and turning into WoW, even the blind can see that.
CCP messes this up anymore than they have, Ill be unsubbing my 5 accounts. And yes, you can all have my stuffs :) I, too, consider rote busywork the hallmark of a "hardcore game."
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1191
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Posted - 2014.12.02 22:09:29 -
[15] - Quote
Udonor wrote:OK I missed it. What is the NEW death penalty?
Loss of implants and removal from the area of space you were in isn't good enough?
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1191
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Posted - 2014.12.02 23:06:46 -
[16] - Quote
Don't forget GÇö-áit's part of the lore of Eve that capsuleers have a cavalier attitude towards death, and that their deaths are fairly meaningless. Conflating skill loss to be some sort of penalty for death is just not that apt of a comparison, given how trivial it is to avoid it. This triviality still makes it eligible for removal, bear in mind.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1193
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Posted - 2014.12.03 03:36:44 -
[17] - Quote
Peoke wrote:now that there is no cost whats to stop entire alliances changing thier clone location and self destructing to travel across the galaxy. you can bypass jump fatigue by just setting clone locations. was this even discussed. They changed it in Phoebe so that you can no longer set your clone station remotely to any station. You can set it to your corporation's HQ once a year, or to the station you're currently in at any time.
Podjumping is, essentially, neutered.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1194
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Posted - 2014.12.03 13:11:22 -
[18] - Quote
Medalyn Isis wrote:Medalyn Isis wrote:I am not sure if CCP have considered this, but how will this effect the current importance of medical facilities?
As of now, medical facilities are of vital strategic importance, as if your reanimate in a station without medical facilities, then you cannot upgrade your clone and basically cannot pvp unless you risk losing SP.
For this reason most people try and base their corporation at a location with a medical facility, and there is real meaning to death as if you are defending an area with no medical facility then when you are podded you end up out the fight. Many corporations have based themselves around stations with vital medical facilities for these reasons.
Are there any plans now to keep the importance of medical facilities? As of now they have no purpose with this change, and a massive blow has been struck to the strategic planning of many corporations. Ive still seen no adequate response to this concern ^ Only the goon economic warfare blah blah team seem to be responding trying to underplay what is going to be a massive strategic change, which means that this will probably benefit goons; I'm betting they will send one of their acolytes to respond to this now trying to underplay it again. Is there any chance of a response from CCP on what their plans out though for medical bays though? I really would like to know whether they are going to be relevant and worth fighting over still, as of right now they are worth practically nothing. Well, I was content to leave organizational affiliations out of this discussion, but since you seem so eager to drag it in, let ol' Uncle Querns schoolfeed you a bit.
The thing about this line of thinking is that it really doesn't affect us, in particular. Goonswarm Federation, and the CFC in general, tend to operate exclusively out of conquerable stations and outposts. The thing about these stations is that every single one has medical facilities. Scarcity of cloning is only a concern for those who don't own any sov.
Knowing this, you can extrapolate the change to say that the removal of clone grades and the subsequent removal of the possibility of SP loss only harms us, in the long run, by removing a potential discouragement from the game.
However, the fact of the matter is, it's like you said GÇö this change is an unabashed positive for the whole of the game, including those we would rather not be. No amount of prefacing the rest of the conversation with a warning about these sorts of statements takes that away. We're allowed to point out when changes just make things objectively better without it constituting a mote of propaganda, slithering demurely from our inexorable spin-holes.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1194
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Posted - 2014.12.03 13:50:42 -
[19] - Quote
Aiyshimin wrote:Tyby wrote:good move CCP, can't wait top go back to flying dictors i can't really believe there is so much but hurt against this change; this is one of those rare changes that only bring benefits to every player no matter how old...and cheap clones will probly mean ppl will use the extra money for implants= better eve common,really, you guys will complain even when CCP is giving you a nice ******* gift?! What gift? What benefit? It's the gift of freedom from rote busywork.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1194
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Posted - 2014.12.03 13:57:35 -
[20] - Quote
It is sort of telling, seeing several people extoll this change as a net reduction in mastery associated with playing Eve. That having to remember to use a dialog after dying is seen as not only some sort of immense strategic decision, as well as a literal hallmark of differentiation between games in the same genre is fascinating. Like, really? Are we even playing the same videogame?
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1194
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Posted - 2014.12.03 14:04:51 -
[21] - Quote
Medalyn Isis wrote:All I am suggesting is that medical clones can "only" be set at a station with a medical facility, instead of the current arrangement of being able to set it at a corporation office. You are aware that pilots can only choose to sync their medical clone with the corporation's single designated system once per year, right?
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1197
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Posted - 2014.12.03 14:20:27 -
[22] - Quote
Aiyshimin wrote:Querns wrote:Aiyshimin wrote:Tyby wrote:good move CCP, can't wait top go back to flying dictors i can't really believe there is so much but hurt against this change; this is one of those rare changes that only bring benefits to every player no matter how old...and cheap clones will probly mean ppl will use the extra money for implants= better eve common,really, you guys will complain even when CCP is giving you a nice ******* gift?! What gift? What benefit? It's the gift of freedom from rote busywork. lol, as if upgrading your clone would be "work" Small amounts of work are still work. :shrug:
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1206
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Posted - 2014.12.03 15:16:38 -
[23] - Quote
Aiyshimin wrote:Querns wrote:Small amounts of work are still work. :shrug: There are so many more arduous and stupid tasks in this game that removing a few mouseclicks to upgrade your clone every now and then hardly justifies the removal. Removing it isn't a tangible benefit. It's a benefit.
Syn Shi wrote:So they removed the risk for vets.............removed the risk.......so now its only reward.
Interesting. Ah, yes, the game where you should be punished the longer you play it.
Also I think there are more full stops in this post than letters.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1206
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Posted - 2014.12.03 15:19:35 -
[24] - Quote
On a further philosophical note, it's amazing to see the sorts of stories people tell themselves about a sandbox game. That there would be more than zero people taking this change as a net negative is just fascinating.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1206
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Posted - 2014.12.03 15:27:03 -
[25] - Quote
Worrff wrote:Draahk Chimera wrote:Well since the Devs commenting in this thread is only qouting and answering the positive feedback it is quite clear it is one of those things they will put in regardless of player input. Its all they ever do. Anything that does not fit in with their "plan" gets pretty much ignored. Have you tried being nicer? I've had a pretty good success rate WRT feedback being integrated, if it's actually good feedback, because I generally keep it positive.
"Don't do it because I had to suffer through it, making it required that all others must in turn" is not good feedback.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1209
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Posted - 2014.12.03 17:21:56 -
[26] - Quote
I've always been in favor of a jump-fatigue-like mechanic for jump clones (even before jump fatigue was conceived.) The way it works in my head is that using a jump clone to the same station is a very short cooldown (possibly even no cooldown,) and the further you travel, the longer the cooldown becomes, up to the current maximum.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1211
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Posted - 2014.12.03 20:56:28 -
[27] - Quote
Zhula Guixgrixks wrote:The perfidious plan to rationalize those changes with "veteran's needs" fails. If you are a veteran and have any problems with the current clone mechanics, you are not a veteran at all.
CCP, add a grace period for noobs (3-6 months) and discard the changes of clone mechanics.
THIS -> "There will no longer be any skillpoint loss upon death." lead to THIS -> Hello Kitty in space, or WoW
Nice hyperbole. Having to remember to interact with a dialog every time you die neither garners nor expresses any sort of mastery.
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
1211
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Posted - 2014.12.03 22:15:20 -
[28] - Quote
Mharius Skjem wrote:Dersen Lowery wrote:Medalyn Isis wrote:Friday Football wrote:Weighing in on this as a NEW player (lots of vets speaking their minds), I am excited by the prospect of more PVP. That's what brought me into EVE in the first place. I'm going to bet this won't make jot of difference to the amount of pvp. What your hearing is mainly propaganda with no evidence. I'd like to see after a couple of months if this had made any difference whatsover to the amount of pvp; I very much doubt it. If there's no effect at all, then the old system had no effect either. In that case, the systems are interchangeable in terms of their impact on the game; why not prefer the simpler of the two? Because when I kill my enemy I want it to hurt. Ships and implants can all be SRP'd. The odds of your podkill inflicting skillpoint loss is infinitesimally low, and even if you did luck into the podkill that did it, there's no way for you to know it happened unless the person you killed specifically tells you. You are literally banking on the player making an easily avoidable mistake, then having the lack of presence of mind to talk about it.
But, hey GÇö-ágood news. If you want to inflict skillpoint loss on folks, just prey exclusively on strategic cruisers. That part didn't change. You even have the surety of the loss in that instance!
This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
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