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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries Chelonaphobia
687
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Posted - 2014.12.15 13:54:51 -
[1] - Quote
I'm all for reshipping in space via orca, carrier, bowhead. I propose that any timers that the reshipping pilot have become inherited by the orca/carrier/bowhead pilot.
This would be a simple fix to risk averse tactics where pilots swap ships in HS during combat. The ship swapping is fine and a great mechanic, but once a ship supports combat by allowing use of it's bay to swap ships, it should then be involved in the combat it is directly supporting.
This proposed change will have little to no effect on carriers. This proposed change will have minimal effect on low sec or null sec (where timers only matter for jumping gates / docking). This proposed change has no impact on wh mechanics. This proposed change will close a loophole in High sec mechanics and provide consequences to ships directly supporting an engagement. |
Tahnil
Sirius Fleet AXIOS.
56
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Posted - 2014.12.15 14:04:50 -
[2] - Quote
+1 |
Danika Princip
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
3046
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Posted - 2014.12.15 14:07:22 -
[3] - Quote
Won't they then just launch the ship out into space instead? |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries Chelonaphobia
687
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Posted - 2014.12.15 14:12:14 -
[4] - Quote
That would be pretty sweet. It would be a mini game to see who can upgrade frist! I'm all for free ships floating in space - especially if it's during a fight.
Edit: there is already a mechanic that you can't board a ship floating in space if it is locked by another player. I think this feature is still in game. |
Tahnil
Sirius Fleet AXIOS.
56
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Posted - 2014.12.15 14:12:16 -
[5] - Quote
That would at least be an opportunity for somebody to steal it. |
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
895
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Posted - 2014.12.15 15:24:00 -
[6] - Quote
While this would make it more difficult for pilots playing station games to reship in space, it would also have a completely chilling effect on Orca use for mining.
All any would-be rogue would have to do to bag an Orca is get into a mining fleet with one, loot a wreck that doesn't belong to them (thus earning a suspect flag), store their ship in their target Orca (this giving the Orca pilot a suspect flag), and then gank the Orca at their leisure.
In order for a suspect flag to transfer between pilots, the pilot who would be receiving the flag should have to be the one initiating the action. It shouldn't be possible for one pilot to "give" a suspect flag to another pilot by interacting with them, it should only be possible to "get" a suspect flag from another pilot by interacting with them.
Being able to "give" another pilot a suspect flag without any action on their part would likely open up far too many avenues for abuse than it closes.
CCP Falcon's thoughts on suicide ganking.
Reading Comprehension: so important it deserves it's own skillbook.
I want to create content, not become content.
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries Chelonaphobia
689
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Posted - 2014.12.15 15:38:06 -
[7] - Quote
The pilot has control over who can use their reshipping facilities.
Nothing is awoxing proof. It just puts responsiblity on the pilot with the reshipping bay to have a reasonable amount of discresion.
I think the gain of closing this risk averse loophole far outweighs the burden of screening who you let reship off of you. It's not like I can pull up along side any bowhead leaving Jita and swap ships. |
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
895
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Posted - 2014.12.15 15:45:43 -
[8] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:The pilot has control over who can use their reshipping facilities.
Nothing is awoxing proof. It just puts responsiblity on the pilot with the reshipping bay to have a reasonable amount of discresion.
I think the gain of closing this risk averse loophole far outweighs the burden of screening who you let reship off of you. It's not like I can pull up along side any bowhead leaving Jita and swap ships. Nor should anything be awoxing proof. But it also shouldn't be so simple that even a caveman can do it.
In addition to my points above, your suggestion is inconsistent with CCP's existing Crimewatch system. It would be possible for an Orca pilot with their safety set to green to get a suspect flag. Reshipping games aside, that is bad game design.
Now, if Orca pilots (and, by extension, Carrier, Titan, Nestor, and Bowhead pilots as well) had more granular control over who had access to their fleet/ship hangars, and those controls were tied into Crimewatch safeties, and those controls were set to disallow flagged player access by default, that I could get behind.
CCP Falcon's thoughts on suicide ganking.
Reading Comprehension: so important it deserves it's own skillbook.
I want to create content, not become content.
|
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries Chelonaphobia
689
|
Posted - 2014.12.15 16:03:45 -
[9] - Quote
http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/73995
Here are the current rules of usage for hangar bays. You can set usage to corp or to fleet or to no one. That seems reasonable to me. I personally don't see a need to update the rules to allow the whole crimewatch safety system to be incorporated.
The pilot that owns the hangar bay already controls access. I guess it's a philosiphy disagreement. You're not much for accountablity and choices having consequences and I am. You pick your corp members and you pick your fleet members (by the fleet you make or by the fleet you join). If you allow bay access to the wrong dude and things go south, then you made a bad choice and you live with the consequences.
No one can access your bay without your permission. It's not like these are entry level ships. If you're in the game long enough to pilot a ship with this wonderful ability, then you've been in the game long enough to be responsible for who can access it and what that actually means.
Yes to timer transfer No to hand holding and coddling |
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
896
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Posted - 2014.12.15 16:16:35 -
[10] - Quote
I'm quite familiar with current hangar/bay mechanics, thanks.
Allowing a pilot to go suspect with their Crimewatch safety set specifically to disallow going suspect is bad game design. There's no real way around that fact.
My suggestion about adding more granular controls was my attempt to increase accountability of Orca* pilots, not decrease it. I think that they should be given the option to specifically allow flagged pilots to access their services, with the result that they inherit any flags said player has, and that doing so should automatically set their Crimewatch safety to yellow. That's not hand-holding or coddling in my mind, that's giving Orca* pilots a specific set of choices and holding them accountable for it. And I'd like to see it applied to all services, not just reshipping.
*Assume that by "Orca", I mean any ship with a fleet or ship hangar.
CCP Falcon's thoughts on suicide ganking.
Reading Comprehension: so important it deserves it's own skillbook.
I want to create content, not become content.
|
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries Chelonaphobia
690
|
Posted - 2014.12.15 16:27:10 -
[11] - Quote
Fair enough. So a check box that would allow or prevent a flagged pilot from using your services.
I think it's coddling, but if you need training wheels, then I'll give them to you. (just poking fun at Bronson folks... not even a 'shots fired' event - he lost a bet a few forums over and owes me a carrier)
I would like to point out for the record that a quick poll of titan pilots currently on line is that their concern over inheriting a flag is pretty low on the list. |
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
896
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Posted - 2014.12.15 16:33:04 -
[12] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:I would like to point out for the record that a quick poll of titan pilots currently on line is that their concern over inheriting a flag is pretty low on the list. I thought this whole post was about reshipping games in hisec. Why would a poll of Titan pilots matter here?
Show me an actual Titan playing legit reshipping games in hisec and I will release you of the Thanatos that you owe me.
CCP Falcon's thoughts on suicide ganking.
Reading Comprehension: so important it deserves it's own skillbook.
I want to create content, not become content.
|
Cassie Celestis
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
7
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Posted - 2014.12.15 17:06:11 -
[13] - Quote
+1
It could actually work.
Alternative is to make reshipping/refitting while combat/engagement timers are active impossible.
It should either be harder to do so, or have graver consequences. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries Chelonaphobia
692
|
Posted - 2014.12.15 17:39:32 -
[14] - Quote
I just thought it was funny when you included titan pilots in the discussion. I stopped at carrier pilots.
Thinking about your suggestion though, it may be a better fix than my original proposal.
You hop in a hangar bay equipped ship and it's default setting is to prevent flagged pilots from using your bay. You have to intentionally find and click a box to allow flagged pilots to use your services. When the pilot checks the box allowing flagged pilots to use his bay a standard warning pops up to alert you of the possible bad things that could happen to you. |
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
903
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Posted - 2014.12.15 17:49:00 -
[15] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:I just thought it was funny when you included titan pilots in the discussion. I stopped at carrier pilots.
Thinking about your suggestion though, it may be a better fix than my original proposal.
You hop in a hangar bay equipped ship and it's default setting is to prevent flagged pilots from using your bay. You have to intentionally find and click a box to allow flagged pilots to use your services. When the pilot checks the box allowing flagged pilots to use his bay a standard warning pops up to alert you of the possible bad things that could happen to you. Ahh. Yeah, that was just my way of saying that fleet/ship hangar mechanics should be consistent. Having things only apply in hisec or only apply to Orcas would be silly.
Yup, what you described is pretty much what I had in mind. I really do think that pilots supporting other pilots with hangars and bays should inherit flags like logis do now, but the associated game mechanics need to allow more control over hangar access and be more clear about consequences than right now.
EDIT: To be clear, I'm talking all accessible bays and services. Letting someone grab drones or ammo from your fleet hangar or refit their ship should carry the same weight as reshipping.
CCP Falcon's thoughts on suicide ganking.
Reading Comprehension: so important it deserves it's own skillbook.
I want to create content, not become content.
|
Antillie Sa'Kan
Forging Industries Silent Infinity
813
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Posted - 2014.12.15 17:51:17 -
[16] - Quote
In the case of hisec, just make it so that if the Orca pilot's safeties are set to green then someone with a suspect flag can't reship. If the Orca pilot's safeties are yellow or red then they can and the Orca pilot gets flagged when they do. Simple. |
Dangeresque Too
Pistols for Pandas
27
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Posted - 2014.12.15 17:56:09 -
[17] - Quote
Bronson Hughes wrote:While this would make it more difficult for pilots playing station games to reship in space, it would also have a completely chilling effect on Orca use for mining.
All any would-be rogue would have to do to bag an Orca is get into a mining fleet with one, loot a wreck that doesn't belong to them (thus earning a suspect flag), store their ship in their target Orca (this giving the Orca pilot a suspect flag), and then gank the Orca at their leisure.
In order for a suspect flag to transfer between pilots, the pilot who would be receiving the flag should have to be the one initiating the action. It shouldn't be possible for one pilot to "give" a suspect flag to another pilot by interacting with them, it should only be possible to "get" a suspect flag from another pilot by interacting with them.
Being able to "give" another pilot a suspect flag without any action on their part would likely open up far too many avenues for abuse than it closes. I think you are kinda missing his point.
So big deal if someone has a suspect flag, is the fact that they have a suspect flag affecting anyone else? Nope.
I think this was more along the lines of being intended for more specifically limited engagement timers, you know, when you engage someone who is yellow flashy, now you are blue flashy. Limiting this to transfer flag when in a limited engagement or more specifically has a weapons timer (kinda like you can't dock until 60 sec after you stop shooting someone) would be mostly like the current suspect rules and how you get them by interfering with a limited engagement between other players.
Now this might still be easy to bring an unsuspecting orca/bowhead/nestor pilot into an engagement that they didn't want to be a part of. And with a little tweaking it could be a helpful thing, or just plain denying the ability to use a refitting service while you have a weapons timer (from aggression) instead of just being suspect.
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries Chelonaphobia
693
|
Posted - 2014.12.15 18:46:23 -
[18] - Quote
I would prefer to give the orca (which ever) pilot the option to 'opt in' on the fight. It would break my heart if a risk averse orca alt wasn't given the opportunity to man up and join the conflict. I'm against be flagged outright preventing you from bringing more pilots into the fray.
On the philisophical level I want pilots that help in the fight to be actually be in the fight.
On the game mechanics level I let Bronson and the other eve detail nerds work out the details. I mean that in a good way. Bronson picked at my idea and it changed from a foggy good notion into an actual check box that seems a lot simpler and yet encompasses even more than I initially intended.
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Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
903
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Posted - 2014.12.15 21:35:23 -
[19] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:On the game mechanics level I let Bronson and the other eve detail nerds work out the details. I mean that in a good way. Bronson picked at my idea and it changed from a foggy good notion into an actual check box that seems a lot simpler and yet encompasses even more than I initially intended. I take that as a compliment.
I've (ab)used Orcas in ways that I feel CCP probably didn't intend* and feel like they should be reigned in somewhat. I just want them reigned in in a way that doesn't cause confusion and/or unintentional ganking, which is why I'm kinda particular about the details.
*I've never re-shipped mid-fight with one, but having a neutral Orca on-grid while bashing a hisec POS is incredibly handy for reloading ammo and replacing lost sentry drones. They're also great for making off with the loot that drops.
CCP Falcon's thoughts on suicide ganking.
Reading Comprehension: so important it deserves it's own skillbook.
I want to create content, not become content.
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