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Torsnk
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
52
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Posted - 2014.12.16 03:53:33 -
[1] - Quote
Getting ready to train into dreads in the next few months. Right now, IGÇÖve narrowed it down to two choices: the Naglfar or the Moros. I understand that the Naglfar is by far the most popular of the dreads, but everything IGÇÖve came up with leads me to believe the Moros is the better choice. Nevertheless, I am looking for some input.
Thus far, this is what IGÇÖve compiled:
The basics: The Moros does a higher quantity (slightly more than 20%) of pure DPS than the Naglfar at ALL ranges (if carrying the correct type of ammo). However, it is limited to Kin/Therm damage only. Furthermore, the Naglfar has a 6/6 split between low and med slots (respectively) making it more flexible in the tanking department (can be shield OR armor fit easily). The Moros has a 7/5 split making it easier to tank armor, but not impossible to tank shield.
The specifics: Taking the basics into account, and plugging a lot of data into EFT I have deduced the following conclusions:
1. The Moros is much superior in the structure grinding department. It does a higher quantity of paper DPS and the overwhelming majority of structures have either no resists or even resists across all four damage types (so the kin/therm issue is mitigated). So even though the Naglfar can switch to different types of DPS it is still going to produce lower DPS and alpha than the Moros. The ONLY type of structure where the Naglfar is better is when dealing with Gallente and Caldari POS Shields (and shields ONLY) since they have resistances against Kin/Therm damage. However, POS armor and POS structure have uniform resists so Kin/Therm only damage is not an issue. Furthermore, Amarr and Minmatar POS shields take more damage from the Moros than the Naglfar due to weak resists against Kin/Therm as well as, all SBUs, POS armor, POS structure, TCUs, iHubs, Outposts, and other sov related structures due to uniform resists across the board.
2. In PVP the Naglfar is better against Gallente and Amarr ships due to their resists being against Kin/Therm because the Naglfar is able to switch ammo types. However, the Moros is better against Amarr and Minmatar ships due to their base resistances when compared to the Naglfar. Once again, even though the Naglfar can switch to different types of ammunition, it does a lower base damage so it will not be able to output more DPS than the Moros in this case. EXCEPTION: If a fleet of dreads consists of ONLY Moroses it stands to reason that the enemy cap fleet could simply swap out their tanks to go against Kin/Thermal. In this case, the Moros would be mitigated. However, the overwhelming majority of people prefer Naglfars (because of their perceived flexibility) so it is likely that if I were to fly a Moros, the fleet I am with would be flying a mix of capitals and thus would not give the enemy fleet the luxury of defending against a specific type of DPS. As such, the Moros and Naglfar would be equally good in most PvP situations (one is better against Amarr/Minmatar the other is better against Caldari/Gallente).
3. Capacitor: The Naglfar does not require cap to fire its weapons. The Moros does. That is obviously a point to the Naglfar. However, my thought process with this is as follows: If I run out of cap in either ship it is likely the result of being neuted/drained/generally having to run an active tank due to being attacked, and not simply the result of running my weapons (since the MorosGÇÖs cap lasts in excess of 1 hour when firing weapons). As such, if I run out of cap in either ship I am probably fooked and it will not be the result of the weapons firing, it will be the result of an attack. So while the Naglfar does score a point in this department, I donGÇÖt see it being an issue in the Moros anymore than it is in the Naglfar.
Looking for input.
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Alexstrazaas
Perkone
Caldari State
22
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Posted - 2014.12.16 04:00:08 -
[2] - Quote
hmmm goooo caldari? |
Torsnk
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
52
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Posted - 2014.12.16 04:04:38 -
[3] - Quote
Alexstrazaas wrote:hmmm goooo caldari?
The Phoenix does less DPS than either the Naglfar or the Moros. The ONLY time when it MIGHT be better is when shooting POS shields (and SHIELDS ONLY). In all other instances, either the Naglfar or Moros are better choices. |
Alexstrazaas
Perkone
Caldari State
22
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Posted - 2014.12.16 04:44:03 -
[4] - Quote
Torsnk wrote:Alexstrazaas wrote:hmmm goooo caldari? The Phoenix does less DPS than either the Naglfar or the Moros. The ONLY time when it MIGHT be better is when shooting POS shields (and SHIELDS ONLY). In all other instances, either the Naglfar or Moros are better choices.
but but it haz giant friggen missles! |
Aerie Evingod
Midwest Miners LLC
119
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Posted - 2014.12.16 05:12:30 -
[5] - Quote
You forgot the part about the Naglfar being verticle. 99 times out of 100 in a dread fleet either one is a viable choice. |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
Snuffed Out
6786
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Posted - 2014.12.16 05:24:45 -
[6] - Quote
First off... you have it wrong. The Moros is the most popular dred out there.
- armor tanking is generally favored when it comes to capital operations (Slave implants, armor setups are more common, etc)
- the Moros can be used quite effectively in an anti-subcapital role due to the relatively high tracking of capital blasters... with a proper subcapital force of its own of course (to web and target paint the target).
Also... base racial resistances are not a factor when it comes to PvP. The reason for this is that any and all PvPers worth their salt will omni-tank as best they can... because you can never be entirely certain what damage types you will face over the course of a battle (and it is VERY hard to refit during a battle).
- in a "gank" setup the Moros is a dps-machine! It is hard to hold the line when you have a bunch of 10,000+ dps dreds focusing on one target.
- you are underestimating the capacitor issue. Since the Nalfgar's weapons do not use any capacitor power it will generally be at full power by the end of its Siege cycle (assuming it jumped into the engagement and did not have to self-rep).
It also means that it can effectively keep fighting even when besieged and/or "going down."
The Moros on the other hand is next to useless without any capacitor power and often needs to dock up and/or receive capacitor transfer support before jumping out.
Remember that for a capital ship, capacitor power is LIFE.
- Don't dismiss the Phoenix outright. It has a bad reputation (and rightfully so, it was terrible in the past)... but with the right fittings and support it is a monster. With two webs and two target painters... it can potentially vaporize battleships in 2 or 3 volleys.
With structures... it may deal less overall dps compared to the Moros or Nalfgar, but it will never have the same range issues... even with "short range" weapons.
- in capital warfare the name of the game is NOT flexibility. It is specialization, meticulous planning, and pure crushing numbers (both in terms of character skills, fitting stats, and bodies on the field).
In a dred you only have ONE job; deliver destruction. Outside of that job, you are useless.
Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective.
"How did you veterans start?"
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Uppsy Daisy
Perkone
Caldari State
624
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Posted - 2014.12.16 10:44:01 -
[7] - Quote
http://failheap-challenge.com/archive/index.php/t-13230.html |
baltec1
Bat Country
Goonswarm Federation
14248
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Posted - 2014.12.17 09:50:44 -
[8] - Quote
I'm having a hard time choosing myself.
The moros for its blasters and the fact that I would like to continue with my love for the mega
The nag for its capless weapons and better agility when roaming.
The Phoenix for its effective application and shield tank.
Its a hard choice.
Join Bat Country today and defend the Glorious Socialist Dictatorship
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Jack Hayson
Atztech Inc.
Ixtab.
39
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Posted - 2014.12.17 10:44:02 -
[9] - Quote
Depends on what you want to do with it. 
For example my corp almost exclusively uses Naglfars for PvP in w-space.
The reason is that in w-space you have to expect a lot of neuting. A Moros that is under neut pressure will have to stop shooting very quickly and becomes essentially useless at that point.
You can't shut down a Nag like that with just neuts - you have to neut AND shoot it until it explodes to remove it's dps from the field, which takes a lot longer and also means that you can't put pressure on other targets during that time because your dps is busy shooting the Nag.
Oh and ofc because they are
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Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
918
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Posted - 2014.12.17 13:26:41 -
[10] - Quote
Dead dreads do no DPS. Keep this in mind before dismissing the Phoenix with it's recently buffed local tank.
The ability to chose damage type is very useful when shooting POS shields, but against ships is generally less relevant.
CCP Falcon's thoughts on suicide ganking.
Reading Comprehension: so important it deserves it's own skillbook.
I want to create content, not become content.
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GordonO
Brave Newbies Inc.
82
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Posted - 2014.12.17 19:12:57 -
[11] - Quote
One man crew recently release their competition video, in the video servant's lord does some solo phonix PVP. it is worth a watch https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=385199.
After watching this I messed around on the test server with an armor tanked phoenix with citadel cruise missiles and all the mids filled with a mix of tp's web's and a scram.. it was eyeopening on what it can actually do. will it work in capital pvp with an armor tank.. no idea.
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Uppsy Daisy
Perkone
Caldari State
626
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Posted - 2014.12.17 19:51:22 -
[12] - Quote
GordonO wrote:One man crew recently release their competition video, in the video servant's lord does some solo phonix PVP. it is worth a watch https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=385199. After watching this I messed around on the test server with an armor tanked phoenix with citadel cruise missiles and all the mids filled with a mix of tp's web's and a scram.. it was eyeopening on what it can actually do. will it work in capital pvp with an armor tank.. no idea.
Your link is broken.
The link I posted above have some Lord's Servant dread vids in it somewhere too.
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Antillie Sa'Kan
Forging Industries
Silent Infinity
816
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Posted - 2014.12.17 21:48:09 -
[13] - Quote
I believe this is what you are looking for. Watching this one fight alone has made me seriously consider training for a Phoenix instead of a Nagalfar. |
Elenahina
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
61
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Posted - 2015.02.06 18:48:09 -
[14] - Quote
I was just shown that video after spending some time (falsely) denigrating the Phoenix in our corp forums. I ended up eating a lot of Crow, and am now seriously considering changing from a Moros.
Agony Unleashed is Recruiting - Small Gang PvP in Null Sec
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Lloyd Roses
843
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Posted - 2015.02.07 17:51:49 -
[15] - Quote
Moros.
Unless the aesthetics of a nag make you get one. It's not the better dread, but the better looking one. (Ofc assuming you want one for low/null)
I GÖÑ Sleipnir
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Aluka 7th
177
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Posted - 2015.02.08 15:56:35 -
[16] - Quote
Moros is best for bigger (0.0) capital fleets where you need every extra % of dps and no1 cares if you live or die. And for quick strikes where you want to kill everything quickly and gtfo before reinforcements arrive (usually active shield tank).
Nag is best for these 3 situations:
- When enemy neutralizes your cap much sooner then kill you (WH fights) because you can keep shooting till the end or until you coast out of siege and get more remote cap.
- When you really need to have cap for jumping the hell out the moment you exit siege. Usually if you are underdog shooting pocos and POSes.
- When you want to one volley enemy capitals in a fleet of Nags from distance using arty very high alpha. |
Celthric Kanerian
Ascendance Of New Eden
Workers Trade Federation
226
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Posted - 2015.02.08 16:10:06 -
[17] - Quote
Is the Revelation that bad, that it ain't even brought up even once? Wow... |
Tsukino Stareine
Sock Robbers Inc.
Low-Class
972
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Posted - 2015.02.08 16:26:12 -
[18] - Quote
too cap dependant |
ShadowandLight
Trigger Happy Capsuleers
Soviet-Union
334
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Posted - 2015.02.08 18:12:43 -
[19] - Quote
The Nag is superior
- it has very close to the same tracking as a Moros
- the shield tank with a few deadspace mods can reach 40k DPS overheated
- Only the Phoenix is able to constantly apply damage if the hostiles are under 15km, but as noted its not as effective in applying that damage till CCP adjusts at least Capital Cruise missiles to be more effective. If they are in cruiser hulls you cannot hit them unless they are pretty much not moving.
- All the tracking issues go away if you are able to dictate some range with the Turret based dreads. Revelations (the worse tracking dread) will hit cruisers for nearly full damage if you can get 30km distance from them.
EVE Online and Multiboxing
Legacy of a Capsuleer Podcast
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Kalihira
Ultramar Independent Contracting
32
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Posted - 2015.02.08 19:15:45 -
[20] - Quote
I do not get why the phoenix still gets alot of hate. It has, by FAR the strongest tank, while maintaining good dps and very high volley damage and it does that to everything within a big range. It only has some problems applying damage to subcaps, but webs and painters go a long way to remedy that.
In the end, it really depends on alot of factors, but personally, I would choose the nag over the moros for its stronger (shield) tank, capless weapons and damage type selection.
edit: read Shahfluffers post, it pretty much nails the pros and cons of all the dreads. |
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Kalihira
Ultramar Independent Contracting
32
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Posted - 2015.02.08 19:23:49 -
[21] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:too cap dependant
The caplife of the moros with everything active (assuming 1 local rep) is actually worse then the revs.. |
Syrias Bizniz
Chaotic Tranquility
Warp to Cyno.
397
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Posted - 2015.02.08 22:39:57 -
[22] - Quote
For Sheer DPS:
Moros. Can't deal with the Antimatter.
For incredible versatility:
Naglfar. Armor, Shield, variable damagetypes, no cap-use on guns, low ammo consumption, VERTICAL(!), Tracking Options (Sabot \o/)
For LuLz:
Phoenix. You basically need: 3 Huginns with Info and Skirmish Warlink running. 1 or 2 TPs per Huginn, 1 or 2 Webs per Huginn, and the Missile Formula starts spitting out some incredible values for dmg applied. As in: **** linked up max tanked drug addicted Devoters, 3 or 4 Volleys and it's GONE. So 3 or 4 Phoenixes + Support, and you could brawl on Gates with ease. Anything.
Wyrkoomi (how is that even spelled!) Phoenix looks kinda good, too. Not like the others.
For Amarr Roleplay:
Revelation. Cause it's Amarrian technology. |
Torsnk
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
54
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Posted - 2015.03.04 02:19:03 -
[23] - Quote
Okay, I think the new Sov Mechanics have just turned my original question on its head (specifically, what is better Moros or Naglfar?).
Taking into account the changes to Sov Mechanics my new question is now: What is better Naglfar or Phoenix?
Here's my reasoning:
1. Taking/Defending Sov no longer involves shooting structures with uniform resists (TCUs, iHubs, and Stations). Rather, they are captured via Entosis Links which can be fitted to ships. Thus,
2. Dreadnoughts no longer have a significant role in grinding down sovereignty structures, and
3. Fights over the new "Command Nodes" will take place across many systems and necessitate fast moving defensive/offensive fleets. As such, slow warping Capital Ships will not have as much, if any of a role, in these skirmishes. Thus,
4. The new primary function of Dreadnoughts will be to destroy Player Owned Stations (POS's) since their mechanics are unchanged (i.e. necessitate structure grinding), and
5. POS's are the -only- structures with variable resistances in the game (i.e. their shield resists vary by race). Thus,
6. The Phoenix is the ideal candidate for grinding POS's because it can selectively fire 100% of a single damage type with missiles. However,
7. Dreadnoughts can still maintain -some- importance in PvP (not as much as before due to the Sov Changes), but in that case the Naglfar is probably a better choice for PvP, due to its versatility and cap stability, than the Moros (definitely better than the Rev) and probably the Phoenix? So,
8. It's somewhat of a toss-up between the Naglfar and the Phoenix at this point. The Nag will likely be better for PvP, but with the changes in Sov Mechanics I see Dreadnought use in pure pvp situations dropping and the Phoenix is clearly better at shooting POS's.
What's your take? |
Aerie Evingod
Midwest Miners LLC
149
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Posted - 2015.03.04 02:38:53 -
[24] - Quote
Only one phase of three planned sov changes has been implemented. Phase two has been announced for this summer. We don't know what other sov changes may also arrive this summer. No clue about phase three. Thus I thinks it's too early to say if you are basing your choice only on null sec sov fights. And capital balance pass is still going to happen sometime. |
Torsnk
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
54
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Posted - 2015.03.04 02:49:17 -
[25] - Quote
Aerie Evingod wrote:Only one phase of three planned sov changes has been implemented. Phase two has been announced for this summer. We don't know what other sov changes may also arrive this summer. No clue about phase three. Thus I thinks it's too early to say if you are basing your choice only on null sec sov fights. And capital balance pass is still going to happen sometime.
Valid point. Nevertheless, my training queue will be shifting towards a dreadnought train after the next two months, and all I can go off of now is the information I have (i.e. what's already happened in Phase I, and what's projected to happen in Phase II). With just that information which would you choose? |
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