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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Solbright
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Posted - 2006.09.13 11:49:00 -
[1]
Just to backup Iona's comments - Lag is not the problem boys.
It's all client side design flaws and bugs; nothing to do with network traffic or the servers. I'll add that lag, even in those rare times it's apparent, is generally not a problem in Eve because of the managerial way the game operates.
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Solbright
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Posted - 2006.09.13 11:55:00 -
[2]
"Engine Stutter" would be a reasonable name for it.
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Solbright
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Posted - 2006.09.13 11:57:00 -
[3]
Or "Client Stutter"
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Solbright
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Posted - 2006.09.28 11:15:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Crystalium Really ?
I played yesterday after patch deployment, dunno if it was hope blinding my eyes, for the 30 first minutes i thought lag was gone .. and then i took a lvl 4 mission a little bit more difficult, lag was back, some explosion were causing 3-5 sec freezes, modules activating between 1-10 sec, and can opening in 2-10 sec ..
That's client stutter you are refering to there. Quite a different problem from lag. Lag never affects framerate.
I can assure you that stuttering has improved back to the level of pre-Dragon. That doesn't mean it's gone away though, that would require a new software engineering approach by CCP.
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Solbright
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Posted - 2006.09.28 11:38:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Akira Ito Not framerate actually, "game smoothness" would be more appreciate.
Yep, lag affects what appears where but it has zero effect on the actual framerate. Any reduction in framerate is for other reasons like rendering complexity for example.
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Solbright
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Posted - 2006.09.28 12:00:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Solbright on 28/09/2006 12:00:44
Games don't wait for network traffic to arrive. The data is processed as it arrives. The framerate will not be affected by late data arriving. Agreed, what, where and when things appear on the display is affected by lag.
I can see we are saying the same things, I'm just trying to clearly state the framerate point is all. So maybe there will be a few less people complaining about the network and servers when the problem is bad client performance instead.
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Solbright
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Posted - 2006.09.28 13:10:00 -
[7]
Freezing is a loss of framerate, total loss, zilch. I labelled it "client stutter".
The game is not freezing due to lack of data, it's freezing due to crunching time required on the new data that has already arrived.
Lets take module activation for example, you click on one, it goes down and up again, packet is sent to server, some time passes with nothing much changing but you still have full framerate, server sends back the module activation, client recieves that and has to change on-screen behaviour at which point there is sometimes a noticable stutter.
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Solbright
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Posted - 2006.09.28 13:17:00 -
[8]
Originally by: CyberGh0st Or did you expect a reply here? It would be buried in seconds and only a handfull of people would have read it.
Nah, they want personal emails, and txts and ICQs and tons of appologies all day long.
Just ignore them.
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Solbright
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Posted - 2006.09.28 13:33:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Akira Ito
Originally by: Solbright Freezing is a loss of framerate, total loss, zilch. I labelled it "client stutter".
The game is not freezing due to lack of data, it's freezing due to crunching time required on the new data that has already arrived.
Yep, and his client stutters with opening cans cuz his videocard is not powerful enough to display it.
You fanboys are amazing. Discussion closed.
Dunno how you could call me a fan boy when I'm putting the blame on the quality of the programming team at CCP.
BTW: Graphics card is rarely to blame for Eve performance.
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Solbright
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Posted - 2006.09.28 13:56:00 -
[10]
It's just like my description of the module activation, once the item list is received the client has to display it, at this point you see a stutter while the client stop rendering to sort out what to do with the items.
Another similar thread: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=395016
It's almost 2:00 AM, sorry, I'm off to bed for now.
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Solbright
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Posted - 2006.09.29 11:57:00 -
[11]
Interesting that you should say you've not had a framerate problem. You aren't first to say that; and so far I've not identified any particular hardware config that is common.
Just to clarify - Open your market, untick "Show Only Available", then in the Browse tab open the "Skills -> Spaceship command" section. This should cause a short stutter or two as the Groups tab is filled with the full list of ship skills.
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Solbright
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Posted - 2006.10.19 12:21:00 -
[12]
A couple of points I'd like to make:
- If the problem is upsetting Windoze then it's not Eve's fault. I'd start looking at hardware stability or quality of drivers.
- Servers are not that often causing problems, most problems are from client stutter or real internet outages. The international links sometimes vanish or just a more localised outage. You can see when the servers have had node drops by the dips in user numbers on the server status graph.
This is not at all a defense of CCP's methods, I personally think their code base is crap, just that some of the complaints are not caused by the servers and therefore won't be improved when the extra nodes are added.
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Solbright
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Posted - 2006.10.27 06:32:00 -
[13]
Originally by: wertgqwergqerg 4) Not only do many people have large amounts of cash tied up in bulk bought subscriptions, but just about EVERY player (bar true noobies) have HUGE amounts of time invested in this game. The solution is not, "lose your money, time and effort" ....it is "provide the service you advertised, continue to advertise, and accept money for).
I'll put emphasis on that point. There is a considerable amount of game design based around having to invest lots of effort, and subsequently money into the game. The missing skill queuing is good evidence of that.
I'll add that all the whiner on here want the game to work, and also want to enjoy it to the fullest.
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Solbright
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Posted - 2006.11.01 06:47:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Solbright on 01/11/2006 06:49:14
It's not hard to find the right files, they are all inside the Eve cache folder. Eve's file and directory naming helps in the search. Start by moving the files in question before deleting.
BTW: It's not lag you are trying to fix, it's stutter. Lag does not affect FPS.
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Solbright
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Posted - 2006.11.02 06:26:00 -
[15]
There is a common blame of lag for everything and a misconception by some that low framerate and stutter can also be caused by lag therefore you'll hear such sayings as "Optimising you're graphics settings will improve lag" or "My system froze due to lag".
Games are not written to stop processing because a network packet is pending. Not even Eve is that poor of an implementation.
Hope this helps.
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Solbright
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Posted - 2006.11.02 20:26:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Misinformed soldier
Originally by: Solbright There is a common blame of lag for everything and a misconception by some that low framerate and stutter can also be caused by lag"
Actually it can, server side lag spikes can result in massive fsp drops for several seconds at a time. And theres no way to combat that kind of framerate loss. And im running a 7900GT, p4 3.0 ghz, so it sure as hell isnt from my end. So its not a misconception, its a reality.
I rest my case. I'd even said that not even CCP's coding team would be that poor at coding.
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Solbright
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Posted - 2006.11.02 21:05:00 -
[17]
Hey guys, I'm saying the problem is the client program that CCP writes, not your PC.
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Solbright
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Posted - 2006.11.04 07:54:00 -
[18]
Originally by: RayRock This removes the need for all insta BMs as well as removing a lot of the lag everyone is complaining about here.
Not holding my breath on that one - heard it all before - CCP have a consistent negative track record when it comes to making the game run smooth. Sure, the reduced use/creation of BM's will be a small relief for the servers only to be swamped by the new patch adding more unneeded bulk to the codebase, further impairing Eve's realtime abilities.
And reduced use of BM's won't help with client stutters either as stuttering is not lag related.
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Solbright
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Posted - 2006.11.09 21:51:00 -
[19]
An attempt to categorise the major problems in this thread. I'll pick Mr Yeager's comments to make my point clearer:
Originally by: Charles Yeager 1. Moving items from ships to hangar and vice versa takes several seconds. Sometimes the cargo indicator on the ship's hold does not update.
2. Serveral seconds for modules to activate.
Issues are lag, loss of sync and server stutters. When I say "server" here I'm refering to the Eve suite of programs that run on the various clusters, not the hardware itself. Loss of sync only becomes apparent later when a single item, or group, is obviously out of place. All three listed causes here can be rolled into one label of lag from the client's point of view.
Quote: 3. Was killing NPCs when it became increasingly choppy until the screen froze all together. My connection was fine as I could continue to use TS with my mates without any problems. Had to kill the session and launch another one.
Issues are client stutter and client bugs. When I say "client" here I'm talking about the Eve program running on your PC, not the PC itself.
I distinguish stutter from bugs because bugs are the result of wrong behaviour at the microscopic level whereas stuttering is a feature of the software engineering approach at the macroscopic level.
All fixes are programming fixes. Existing hardware, at both ends, is way more powerful than needed.
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Solbright
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Posted - 2006.11.09 22:02:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Nymos ...this time i was at 38% structure... the screen updated every few seconds like it was lagging so i thought hmm lag spike, but shields look fine. then i thought "no way, shields can't stay that stable". switched to alt who was shield transferring and saw i was almost at no shields.
Excellent proof of a bug that is very old now. I suspect it's another form of the loss-of-sync bug that affects things like overview.
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Solbright
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Posted - 2006.11.10 13:59:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Sargeant HAmmer
Quote: All fixes are programming fixes. Existing hardware, at both ends, is way more powerful than needed.
So,
Why dont they fix it!!
If its as quick as a software fix then get it done.
That's the hardest and most time comsuming part when it's this far out of control is why. Especially when it requires a re-education component. ;) It'll either be fixed or Eve will die. :(
Quote: I'm happy enough to put up with the lag as my pc's from years ago have never been able to cope with games i play so 5 - 10 fps is always good, anything higher is a bonus.
That is not lag, lag does not affect framerate.
Quote: It's when the client tells the server to do something and the server says hang on a mo im dealing with something here. You press the button again and it says an attempt is already underway blah blah blah. So why does the server need to do this. If the server did what u said client lag would be all good in my point of view. I've warped on the client a nice distance of 25 au then the server said hang on a sec i havent said go yet and puts you back to the begining. Thats server lag.
That is lag, period. Server lag is meaningless.
Quote: The hardware is adequate and can cope with this game no probs both ends. It can also cope with 25k + players. the issue is the programs that do all the work, surely they can harness some more power to do their dirty work (and im not talking about adding hardware) my pc could probably run the eve server software and get 10 connections with standard lag due to slow internet connection just to show a point. i think the client needs to do more work than the server for position reporting and movement giving less lag.
The client is already spliting at the seams causing it's fair share of the headaches. You are wanting even more stutters and even lower framerate?
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Solbright
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Posted - 2006.11.12 20:34:00 -
[22]
The packet loss problem is local to London it seems from reports, including CCP themselves trying to solve it. Everyone is suffering.
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Solbright
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Posted - 2006.11.23 11:25:00 -
[23]
That's because you are describing client stutter and generally poor framerate. The server upgrades and added bandwidth were not intended to improve these, nor will they. Network lag and server stutters have no baring on framerate.
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Solbright
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Posted - 2006.11.23 11:36:00 -
[24]
What I'm saying is it appears that there has never been any effort put into solving client stutter and poor framerate. All of CCP's outlay on more servers is to compensate for the slow code that runs on them but there is no effort going into optimising the codebase itself.
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Solbright
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Posted - 2006.11.23 12:02:00 -
[25]
Nope, not even Eve's design would be that dumb. The client does not wait for a responses to commands, it instead will display whatever arrives when it arrives. Rendering is independant of traffic.
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Solbright
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Posted - 2006.11.27 12:33:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Lorn Cholaxu If things continue in this vein, we might need to start a new thread "EVE becoming playable" in the next few weeks.
:) I'm getting hopeful for reduced stutter from the "optimisations" mentioned in Tuesdays patch notes.
Quote: Have people noticed persistent lag of late, or have the hardware upgrades made their impact?
Yup, lag has dropped off for most ppl. There are some still dealing with bad connections I think but that's not CCP's problem.
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Solbright
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Posted - 2006.11.27 13:30:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Akira Ito But that will cause issues with balancing - your ship have to be registered in that system too, and your ship should became visible for ships near gate in the same moment, as well they're all should be visible to you. So, client just freezes until everybody is ready to see each other.
Okay, lets go at it then.
First point: Eve is a client-server setup not a P2P setup. This means the game engine entirely runs on the servers, which in turn means that the clients aren't much more that a TV set. Add to this setup Eve's supervisory nature of player commanded combat and you get a fair and playable combat management system even with a notable amount of lag in the system.
Second point: Things only showing as they are sent to a client is exactly what does happen. Some ppl will see things later than others. And that can mean you can be slow to react to a critical change. The only reason you get a stutter at this point is just the client bogging down on the new info which it really shouldn't under any conditions.
However, usually, for example, things like small gang warp-ins and the likes, the coming-out-of-warp timer is enough to compensate for any lag so everyone gets the same chance. Just remember that a typical ping time is well under a second while Eve is much slower ticking than that so lag is not normally a big issue unless the servers aren't keeping up.
And, just to insert my pet peeve in here, when you get larger changes like fleet warp-ins or even swapping tabs on your humble chat window, where there is alot of objects being created/shifted you get slapped with a whopper stutter that can stall your PC for far too long leaving you sitting idle in a sometimes hostile situation, the servers are running along merrily processing things but you are not. Again, stuttering is not acceptable, even to the extent of just low framerate. The client's job is to be a display terminal, it should be able to keep up.
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Solbright
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Posted - 2006.12.15 21:41:00 -
[28]
Looks like things have improved if this thread is any measure.
I'll have to admit it's a little more playable since Revalations, the nominal framerate is down but so is the stuttering.
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Solbright
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Posted - 2007.01.29 12:01:00 -
[29]
Instead of pointing out stuff that isn't relevant to his current problem, how about answering his question. The obvious answer being that the Eve client is indeed generally slower since the Revelations patch.
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Solbright
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Posted - 2007.01.29 22:03:00 -
[30]
There is some glimmer of hope that the graphics engine rewrite for DX10 will remedy this but don't hold your breath as this will be some years off and may not be the whole reason for such poor framerates. Indeed, it'll likely be even worse framerate given CCP's past track record.
I'm not impressed either - as you can prolly tell. The client software's job is to be a game terminal and to that end presentation is pretty much it's sole function and, to me atleast, decent and steady framerate is number one on the list of presentation factors. Bottom of the list is glossy looks.
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