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Torothin
TEC-NOLOGY Sorry We're In Your Space Eh
257
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Posted - 2014.12.31 13:29:25 -
[31] - Quote
Minnie are not borked. The Cyn and Vaga are great small scale PvP ships. The Tornado is a great sniper and the Sleipner is still a beast. Scimmy is used in almost every fleet doctrine. Hound is great and Pather is great. The Loki also has it's uses. The Mach is the best PvE ship in the game. Minnie is fine, it's just that the current "meta" are drones boats and several noobs in this thread and on eve cannot look past that fact. |
Badman Lasermouse
Run and Gun Mercenary Corps
45
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Posted - 2014.12.31 16:11:43 -
[32] - Quote
There is not a single T1 ship on your list there.
-Badman
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Torothin
TEC-NOLOGY Sorry We're In Your Space Eh
258
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Posted - 2014.12.31 16:46:33 -
[33] - Quote
Badman Lasermouse wrote:There is not a single T1 ship on your list there.
T1 ships you say?
- Scythe.
- BURST
- Rifter.
- Thrasher
- Vigil
- Anti-frig Bellicose
- Arty Rupture
Faction you say?
- Scythe fleet issue
- Stabber fleet issue
I also forgot to mention the Sabre. Bottom line is: Minnie has a **** ton of useful ships. Anyone who says otherwise... I question them as a PvPer. |
Badman Lasermouse
Run and Gun Mercenary Corps
45
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Posted - 2014.12.31 17:19:04 -
[34] - Quote
You can question my skill all you want however as a Mini pilot, I know for a fact that T1 Minimitar cruiser and above need some serious love to become viable solo PVP ships again. (Stabber and Scythe Fleet issues being the exception) Also, when was the last time you flew a rifter?
-Badman
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Torothin
TEC-NOLOGY Sorry We're In Your Space Eh
258
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Posted - 2014.12.31 17:38:30 -
[35] - Quote
Badman Lasermouse wrote:You can question my skill all you want however as a Mini pilot, I know for a fact that T1 Minimitar cruiser and above need some serious love to become viable solo PVP ships again. (Stabber and Scythe Fleet issues being the exception) Also, when was the last time you flew a rifter?
I am too skilled to fly a Rifter now. Putting me in a Rifter is a waste of my skill set. It is however still viable. Have you flown the vaga as of recent? it's totally viable for solo. |
Badman Lasermouse
Run and Gun Mercenary Corps
45
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Posted - 2014.12.31 18:14:36 -
[36] - Quote
I do in fact, the Vaga is one of my go to solo PVP ships. However these days after the TE nerf it's damage projection is a bit underwhelming. It is still an excellent anti-frig platform, and all Mini ships are very good at killing ships under their class IE the whelp Pest or Whelp Cane, however they do sometimes struggle within their own class.
Ruptures these days, once one of the best T1 Cruisers, now get outclassed in just about every way by a Vexor/Moa/Maller. Canes are forced to brawl and have no hope of going toe to toe against a well fit Brutix, Myrm, or Prophecy, even a HAM Drake is questionable. You did mention the Arty shield Ruppy (and its big brother the arty cane) which are still viable fleet ships, however they no longer have a significant speed advantage over the other racial ships, nor do they have the capacitor to kite comfortably for over a minute or two. They work for sure, here are some examples:
3 Shotting a Vaga
Kiting a Bait Procurer
I've had to upgrade my T1 Arty Cane to an Cane Fleet in order to still fit a reasonable tank. However without full skirmish links its still a very difficult ship to fly effectively.
With the TE nerf and Mini agility nerf, they have been forced into becoming armor brawlers, where they are outgunned by Blaster Boats and out tanked by just about everything else. If auto cannons get a rebalance, the days of Nano Pests and Canes may come again, but until that time I don't reccomend them as competetive solo PVP ships. Their engagement profile has just grown significantly smaller than it used to be.
-Badman
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Torothin
TEC-NOLOGY Sorry We're In Your Space Eh
258
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Posted - 2014.12.31 19:00:47 -
[37] - Quote
Badman Lasermouse wrote:I do in fact, the Vaga is one of my go to solo PVP ships. However these days after the TE nerf it's damage projection is a bit underwhelming. It is still an excellent anti-frig platform, and all Mini ships are very good at killing ships under their class IE the whelp Pest or Whelp Cane, however they do sometimes struggle within their own class. Ruptures these days, once one of the best T1 Cruisers, now get outclassed in just about every way by a Vexor/Moa/Maller. Canes are forced to brawl and have no hope of going toe to toe against a well fit Brutix, Myrm, or Prophecy, even a HAM Drake is questionable. You did mention the Arty shield Ruppy (and its big brother the arty cane) which are still viable fleet ships, however they no longer have a significant speed advantage over the other racial ships, nor do they have the capacitor to kite comfortably for over a minute or two. They work for sure, here are some examples: 3 Shotting a VagaKiting a Bait ProcurerI've had to upgrade my T1 Arty Cane to an Cane Fleet in order to still fit a reasonable tank. However without full skirmish links its still a very difficult ship to fly effectively. With the TE nerf and Mini agility nerf, they have been forced into becoming armor brawlers, where they are outgunned by Blaster Boats and out tanked by just about everything else. If auto cannons get a rebalance, the days of Nano Pests and Canes may come again, but until that time I don't reccomend them as competetive solo PVP ships. Their engagement profile has just grown significantly smaller than it used to be.
I also forgot to mention the Cyclone. That can go toe to toe with the Bcs that you mentioned. By no means is minnie the end all and be all. But they are also not total crap as many have suggested. |
Badman Lasermouse
Run and Gun Mercenary Corps
45
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Posted - 2014.12.31 19:03:45 -
[38] - Quote
I do like the Cyclone, however I just wish it could get a DPS buff and be able to crack 600. If that were the case it would be my go to BC.
-Badman
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Torothin
TEC-NOLOGY Sorry We're In Your Space Eh
259
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Posted - 2014.12.31 22:47:01 -
[39] - Quote
Just because a ship is not the "go to" solo ship does not mean it is a bad ship. |
Badman Lasermouse
Run and Gun Mercenary Corps
45
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Posted - 2015.01.01 06:37:37 -
[40] - Quote
There is no ship that is the last word in PVP. Every ship has its counter, however I do like to have a ship that has a reasonable engagement profile. The Cyclone can sport a monstrous tank, however all tanks break eventually and its cruiser level DPS doesn't do it any favors.
-Badman
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Stitch Kaneland
Ex Astris Opes
104
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Posted - 2015.01.01 15:58:42 -
[41] - Quote
Torothin wrote:Badman Lasermouse wrote:There is not a single T1 ship on your list there. T1 ships you say? - Scythe. Logi ship, not relavent to solo PvP minus the niche` linked, boosted pvp fits- BURST Logi ship, not a solo pvp boat- Rifter You haven't been in a rifter lately have you? Rifter is the worst t1 frig in the game at the moment, falloff bonus does almost nothing for the hull with small a/c's, you can scram kite, but breacher is much better in that role.- Thrasher Is good- Vigil wat? Why would anyone except 1 week old noobs fly vigils? Belli is billions of times better, and can actually provide support for the gang as anti-frig- Anti-frig Bellicose - Is good, can be used in solo pvp, mainly to face roll frigs in FW
- Arty Rupture - Not solo, unless you use a very niche` fit, in a gang/fleet setting, they're ok-ishFaction you say? - Scythe fleet issue Good- Stabber fleet issue GoodI also forgot to mention the Sabre. Bottom line is: Minnie has a **** ton of useful ships. Anyone who says otherwise... I question them as a PvPer.
Bottom line is minny got nerfed hard, and in typical CCP fashion, didn't revisit base stats during the nerf. Minmatar were balanced a lot around TE's. Once they did a 50% nerf on TE, and no adjustment to base a/c values, kind of made that weapon system ****.
After TE nerf, AC fall-off is garbage, the vagabond has been pretty handi-capped by this, out of the 550dps you are doing, you're lucky if you're applying 300 of that under the best of conditions while kiting. Its a glorified stabber, and does the same thing the stabber can do. It has a limited engagement profile because its applied dps at kite range can't break a t1 cruiser's tank. Its just another anti-frig ship that costs 200-300m.
So instead of relying on a/c's to kite in medium engagement range, we try artillery. But you can't fit artillery with tank + prop mod in most cases without multiple fitting mods. Thereby gimping your fit and not making it worth the isk.
So.. ok, well lets brawl with a/c's then. Well, with the blaster/drone brawling meta on-going at the moment, you won't have a snowballs chance in hell of brawling against most decently fit blaster boats. Rails have also been heavily buffed, and easily out dps anything minny have for long range weapons (a/c's, arty, missiles).
Well.. minmatar have speed! That may be true, but they lack agility (vagabond). Also, many other ships are just as fast as minmatar's fastest ship nowadays. So the whole "speed" thing is kind of moot. Cynabal, phantasm, orthus, nomen, scyfi to name a few. Plus the horde of inty's that are so common nowadays.
Minmatar have a few good ships, especially in the higher skills (slep/loki), but a lot of their other stuff is just underpowered/underwhelming, or just outclassed by what else is out there at the moment.
I mean, look at the muninn. When was the last you saw one? That is a perfect example of minmatar needing some restructuring. Some of the ships have no use, as they're outclassed more often than not, or can't fit the weapon system they were designed to operate or that gives them a chance to project damage.
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Torothin
TEC-NOLOGY Sorry We're In Your Space Eh
259
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Posted - 2015.01.01 20:03:04 -
[42] - Quote
You're basing your argument on being able to solo. There is more to pvp.. than just solo. Nowhere in the OP was being able to solo mentioned. Bottom line: you're wrong. |
Interfectorem Tacet
ZigZag Operations and Reconnaissance
1
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Posted - 2015.01.02 05:00:45 -
[43] - Quote
Interesting read guys.
Had the christmas period off eve and getting some basic combat skills up etc.
Looks like I'll be starting with the slasher/rifter for my solo frig forays into low/null then see how it pans out. Probably round off my skills with the breacher then just move up the ship classes as time goes on.
One thing I have noticed is that minnie in general have a few extra m/s than the other races but they are often the 2nd/3rd in agility. Which kinda gimps the ability to utilise that speed. Give then AC deliver less (sometimes a lot less) damage than other weapon systems wouldn't you think having the agility to synergise with the speed would be a good 'balance'?
I used to fly other races when minnies were 'winmatar' as they were clearly op and made pvp more like 'easy mode' but now it seems they have gone almost right back to the start where they were the hardest race to fly/fight with and longest skilling to utilise all their ships abilities etc.
Ah well lets see how I get on...CHARGE!!
Oh and I prefer solo - v small gang stuff. |
Stitch Kaneland
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
104
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Posted - 2015.01.02 15:17:37 -
[44] - Quote
Torothin wrote:You're basing your argument on being able to solo. There is more to pvp than just soloing and logis play a very important role in all aspect of PvP. To say that doesn't count as useful is like me saying that the Ishtar is useless because I refuse to train drones thus making it a **** ship. Nowhere in the OP was being able to solo mentioned. Bottom line: you're wrong.
Solo pvp is still a legit avenue for those who wish to pursue it and is balanced just like gangs/fleet. It is still relavent to the conversation.
Not to mention you said rifter was good but then say you dont fly it because its a waste of a "skill set". So how do you know its good if you never fly it? I also have yet to see a gang of rifters. Its cause theyre **** currently. Slasher does everything rifter can, but with a much more useful tracking bonus.
What is funny is that the OP just replied that he is going to SOLO. So.. bottom line: you're wrong. |
Stitch Kaneland
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
104
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Posted - 2015.01.02 15:22:34 -
[45] - Quote
Interfectorem Tacet wrote:Interesting read guys.
Had the christmas period off eve and getting some basic combat skills up etc.
Looks like I'll be starting with the slasher/rifter for my solo frig forays into low/null then see how it pans out. Probably round off my skills with the breacher then just move up the ship classes as time goes on.
One thing I have noticed is that minnie in general have a few extra m/s than the other races but they are often the 2nd/3rd in agility. Which kinda gimps the ability to utilise that speed. Give then AC deliver less (sometimes a lot less) damage than other weapon systems wouldn't you think having the agility to synergise with the speed would be a good 'balance'?
I used to fly other races when minnies were 'winmatar' as they were clearly op and made pvp more like 'easy mode' but now it seems they have gone almost right back to the start where they were the hardest race to fly/fight with and longest skilling to utilise all their ships abilities etc.
Ah well lets see how I get on...CHARGE!!
Oh and I prefer solo - v small gang stuff.
Your right. Minny agility was nerfed and gal agility buffed. Thats one reason minny speed isnt all its cracked up to be. A vagabond vs deimos drag race, the deimos will win since it accelerates quicker. Able to snag that vaga on the gate before it can effectively kite. |
Torothin
TEC-NOLOGY Sorry We're In Your Space Eh
259
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Posted - 2015.01.02 15:25:04 -
[46] - Quote
Stitch Kaneland wrote:Interfectorem Tacet wrote:Interesting read guys.
Had the christmas period off eve and getting some basic combat skills up etc.
Looks like I'll be starting with the slasher/rifter for my solo frig forays into low/null then see how it pans out. Probably round off my skills with the breacher then just move up the ship classes as time goes on.
One thing I have noticed is that minnie in general have a few extra m/s than the other races but they are often the 2nd/3rd in agility. Which kinda gimps the ability to utilise that speed. Give then AC deliver less (sometimes a lot less) damage than other weapon systems wouldn't you think having the agility to synergise with the speed would be a good 'balance'?
I used to fly other races when minnies were 'winmatar' as they were clearly op and made pvp more like 'easy mode' but now it seems they have gone almost right back to the start where they were the hardest race to fly/fight with and longest skilling to utilise all their ships abilities etc.
Ah well lets see how I get on...CHARGE!!
Oh and I prefer solo - v small gang stuff. Your right. Minny agility was nerfed and gal agility buffed. Thats one reason minny speed isnt all its cracked up to be. A vagabond vs deimos drag race, the deimos will win since it accelerates quicker. Able to snag that vaga on the gate before it can effectively kite.
He literally just mentioned solo. He did not in the OP. Therefore, my argument still stands. |
Stitch Kaneland
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
104
|
Posted - 2015.01.02 16:33:14 -
[47] - Quote
Torothin wrote:Stitch Kaneland wrote:Interfectorem Tacet wrote:Interesting read guys.
Had the christmas period off eve and getting some basic combat skills up etc.
Looks like I'll be starting with the slasher/rifter for my solo frig forays into low/null then see how it pans out. Probably round off my skills with the breacher then just move up the ship classes as time goes on.
One thing I have noticed is that minnie in general have a few extra m/s than the other races but they are often the 2nd/3rd in agility. Which kinda gimps the ability to utilise that speed. Give then AC deliver less (sometimes a lot less) damage than other weapon systems wouldn't you think having the agility to synergise with the speed would be a good 'balance'?
I used to fly other races when minnies were 'winmatar' as they were clearly op and made pvp more like 'easy mode' but now it seems they have gone almost right back to the start where they were the hardest race to fly/fight with and longest skilling to utilise all their ships abilities etc.
Ah well lets see how I get on...CHARGE!!
Oh and I prefer solo - v small gang stuff. Your right. Minny agility was nerfed and gal agility buffed. Thats one reason minny speed isnt all its cracked up to be. A vagabond vs deimos drag race, the deimos will win since it accelerates quicker. Able to snag that vaga on the gate before it can effectively kite. He literally just mentioned solo. He did not in the OP. Therefore, my argument still stands.
Context clues are taught pretty early in school.
Your arguement can stand, but its still wrong. Minmatar are not what they used to be. Especially in a solo setting.
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kurage87
EVE University Ivy League
36
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Posted - 2015.01.02 16:44:55 -
[48] - Quote
Torothin wrote:Stitch Kaneland wrote:Interfectorem Tacet wrote:Interesting read guys.
Had the christmas period off eve and getting some basic combat skills up etc.
Looks like I'll be starting with the slasher/rifter for my solo frig forays into low/null then see how it pans out. Probably round off my skills with the breacher then just move up the ship classes as time goes on.
One thing I have noticed is that minnie in general have a few extra m/s than the other races but they are often the 2nd/3rd in agility. Which kinda gimps the ability to utilise that speed. Give then AC deliver less (sometimes a lot less) damage than other weapon systems wouldn't you think having the agility to synergise with the speed would be a good 'balance'?
I used to fly other races when minnies were 'winmatar' as they were clearly op and made pvp more like 'easy mode' but now it seems they have gone almost right back to the start where they were the hardest race to fly/fight with and longest skilling to utilise all their ships abilities etc.
Ah well lets see how I get on...CHARGE!!
Oh and I prefer solo - v small gang stuff. Your right. Minny agility was nerfed and gal agility buffed. Thats one reason minny speed isnt all its cracked up to be. A vagabond vs deimos drag race, the deimos will win since it accelerates quicker. Able to snag that vaga on the gate before it can effectively kite. He literally just mentioned solo. He did not in the OP. Therefore, my argument still stands. The rule of thumb is; if someone is asking if a ship is good for PvP then they mean for solo. The reason? Anything is good in a fleet. |
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