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Caleb Seremshur
The Atomic Fallout Kids
435
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Posted - 2014.12.27 08:20:04 -
[1] - Quote
So this is more of a review than anything else.
Let's begin with: maybe I just don't "get" the widow but it's terrible. Legitimately bad.
A quick list of ways the widow is terrible:
1. Rook has similar bonuses, is a shorter train, faster and has double the base lock range and locks faster.
2. Can't covop cloak -- this alone is enough to warrent NEVER flying this ship. EVER.
3. Weapon systems are bonused incorrectly. ECM gets no range, the jam strength is identical to a max level falcon/rook while taking substantially longer to train. Missiles get ROF and no application.
4. The ship has only just barely better than capitals lock time.
5. It doesn't have the right slot layout to fit any appreciable tank and do it's job properly. It starts off with 50% of the tank of any equivalent battleship which is inexcusable given how fickle it is.
6. HUGE sig, bloated way out of control. 450 at base for "the last word in clandestine warfare". Yeah ok. Like flying a B-52 is subtle.
7. ECM deserves its own topic for how horribly broken it is: it doesn't work properly. RNG based PVP weapons is a horrible idea when you don't even deal damage and nothing you do by piloting can compensate. Arties and ECM share the same cycle time but arties can account for transversal while ECM you just hit the button and if they don't fire YOLO you wasted 990mil. GG.
9. No bonus to the TSB (target spectrum breaker) perhaps the one ship that should have gotten a bonus doesn't have it. Stupid.
10. Is incredibly slow.
11. Glorified jumpdrive platform. Why even design this ship? Just give that functionality to titans.
Yeah the widow is patently terrible. It should be trademarked as an example of how NOT to design something. It doesn't even do it's one gimmick well (ECM).
How to fix the widow?
Well first of all fix ECM. It should produce ghost signals. Delete the TSB and make ECMs break locks and then produce ghost signals within 5km of the ship. The module should produce 1 ghost for every full point of ECM it has. Therefore a bonused ship with 5 points of ECM produces 5 ghosts. Or rather a maximum of 5 ghosts depending on the number of locks and jams the target has applied to it. Rather than outright disabling an enemy you force them to guess what they're shooting. Ghost signals show no damage but always display the same hp as the host. This is how ECM works in real life and should be transliterated to EVE. If CCP can't do it, then DELETE ECM and replace the bonus with something more useful (whatever that may be).
Secondly the widow should get a 20%/level ECM range bonus. Replace the ******** cloaking speed bonus with this.
Thirdly give it (and all blackops) covops cloak. These ships do not share force/combats and don't need to. That just makes things even more convoluted and you'll still see one brand of ship never getting flown. D-scan immunity will never fix the on-grid deficiencies this hull suffers which is precisely why it's never used in actual combat.
Fourthly would be just general small increases to its speed, tank and lock speed/range. Not every ship should be arbitrarily nerfed in order to impose an insane sense of 'balance' by forcing them to fit fitting mods just to do the job they were designed for. That's ridiculous and something we see a lot in caldari hulls especially, they can't even fit hull appropriate mods withouts without fitting mods or rigs while gallente get grid to spare nearly every time.
I don't claim to know the answer but I think I know the problem and the problem is that the widow doesn't have anything to make it better than another ship doing the same job save for being a covert jump bridge which is a pretty sad state of affairs.
Join channel Aussies in space to chat with AU/NZ players
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HandelsPharmi
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
1125
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Posted - 2014.12.27 08:51:17 -
[2] - Quote
do you really have understood the cloaked speed bonus?
I agree with you, that there are a few problems with signature and damage projection, but would you fit torpedos with damage modules on it? it is a black ops... to sneak, light a covert cxno or better bridge a covert cyno...Not to deal damage that much.
it may have halfof HP of a BS but not half of EHP... it hs T2 resistance... |
Caleb Seremshur
The Atomic Fallout Kids
435
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Posted - 2014.12.27 09:55:15 -
[3] - Quote
HandelsPharmi wrote:
it may have halfof HP of a BS but not half of EHP... it hs T2 resistance...
no it doesn't. It has standard t1 resists.
Join channel Aussies in space to chat with AU/NZ players
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val Tartess
Fallen RaVens
Company Company
2
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Posted - 2014.12.28 08:35:23 -
[4] - Quote
Thx Caleb Seremshur for sharing some ideas on the widow.
After 1 year of using the ship I can say it is nothing but a space-taxi to brige blokade runner (or bombers) in + out of null and lowsec. I will try to explain my statement:
There was not a single incident, where I was willing to risk 850M to shoot at some drake ratting in some belt.
DPS are a joke. (worse than T1)
EHP are a joke. (worse than T1)
ECM as you stated correctly is not usefull. (only usefull if you are damn sure, there is only 1 opponent)
However in null, gangs are the norm (also for ratting)
Speed bonus while cloaked? -> very useless
@ gate: eve if you cloak fast, the gang sitting there will uncloak you anyway, speed bonus or not.
@ belt: if you are not sitting in the belt and hoping for a single ratting ship, no use anyway (Torp fitted with short point and web)
a cloaked t3 is still the better and cheaper version and can warp cloaked.
=> atm space taxi for blokade runners only :)
If there are other widow pilots out there, pls tell me if you did find a roll the ship is good at beside "ok....bridge is up.." |
Soldarius
Deadman W0nderland
The 99 Percent
999
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Posted - 2014.12.29 19:17:53 -
[5] - Quote
Funny thing is... I managed to 1v1 a Navy Dominix on the test server with a Widow, no links or anything. True solo. Never under-estimate the power of a full-on ECM tank. It can pretty much permajam anything. Before the warp speed changes, it could sit at warp distance, full-speed aligned, and be on top of you in seconds. Now the interminable deceleration time makes this almost impossible except against the most afk of players.
The speed bonus while cloaked makes it move faster while cloaked than uncloaked. For a BS, thats pretty cool and actually useful. If you can't find a use for it (insta-warp upon decloak), you fail.
All that being said, having its bonuses split up so much means it can't really do a lot very well. I would like to see it refocused.
http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
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Aerie Evingod
Midwest Miners LLC
124
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Posted - 2014.12.29 21:39:15 -
[6] - Quote
Caleb Seremshur wrote:HandelsPharmi wrote:
it may have halfof HP of a BS but not half of EHP... it hs T2 resistance...
no it doesn't. It has standard t1 resists.
Check again. |
Troy Isagar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2014.12.30 10:40:46 -
[7] - Quote
Yep you are right, one of the best looking ships perhaps, has 0 use apart from being a bridge. Sad really as it takes so long to train for as well :/ |
Janeway84
Def Squadron
Pride Before Fall
132
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Posted - 2014.12.30 11:37:59 -
[8] - Quote
Yeah Widow looks bad ass! 
I hope CCP crew can manage to squeeze on some cool and deep bonuses to it while still giving it some niche role. |
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
863
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Posted - 2014.12.30 13:17:50 -
[9] - Quote
Widow is the same as every other ECM boat in the game. Its a force multiplier that's nice to have with your gang.
Obviously the Panther's and Redeemer's will be doing all the heavy lifting.
Not today spaghetti.
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Jack Morrison
Manson Family
Advent of Fate
171
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Posted - 2014.12.30 14:46:58 -
[10] - Quote
I agree with the least useful BLOPS BS part.
You won't use it solo and if you have a BLOPS fleet going, you just bring a falcon with you.
But changing game mechanics to fix 1 hull is bad mmmkay ?
How about a special bonus - like marauders in bastion mode - immune to all ewar (apart from neuts). Fix - it's special.
"This is nothing more than a rumor with no basis of fact. Hope that's enough of a confirmation for you guys. :)"
Coolstorybro
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Paynus Maiassus
Capital Munitions
210
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Posted - 2014.12.30 18:49:42 -
[11] - Quote
I've only taken my widow into combat once. Was watching a gate so I could move a T1 hauler into low. Hauler comes in. Rapier decloaks. I decloak and go for the Rapier. Redeemer decloaks and goes for me. I am rainbow fit with ECM mods in the lows and just enough tank to slow down drones. I have good ECM skills. Minmatar ECM + another on the Rapier and Amarr ECM + 1 on the Redeemer. Very quick permajam. I win. Opponent was overconfident because I was just one widow and fought to the bitter end. Sucks for him.
Widow really useless?
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Chris Winter
Winters Are Coming
588
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Posted - 2014.12.30 19:52:43 -
[12] - Quote
Paynus Maiassus wrote:I've only taken my widow into combat once. Was watching a gate so I could move a T1 hauler into low. Hauler comes in. Rapier decloaks. I decloak and go for the Rapier. Redeemer decloaks and goes for me. I am rainbow fit with ECM mods in the lows and just enough tank to slow down drones. I have good ECM skills. Minmatar ECM + another on the Rapier and Amarr ECM + 1 on the Redeemer. Very quick permajam. I win. Opponent was overconfident because I was just one widow and fought to the bitter end. Sucks for him.
Widow really useless?
I think the point is that you could've done that just as well with a Falcon for a fraction of the cost and skill investment. |
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
863
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Posted - 2014.12.31 13:14:11 -
[13] - Quote
Chris Winter wrote:Paynus Maiassus wrote:I've only taken my widow into combat once. Was watching a gate so I could move a T1 hauler into low. Hauler comes in. Rapier decloaks. I decloak and go for the Rapier. Redeemer decloaks and goes for me. I am rainbow fit with ECM mods in the lows and just enough tank to slow down drones. I have good ECM skills. Minmatar ECM + another on the Rapier and Amarr ECM + 1 on the Redeemer. Very quick permajam. I win. Opponent was overconfident because I was just one widow and fought to the bitter end. Sucks for him.
Widow really useless?
I think the point is that you could've done that just as well with a Falcon for a fraction of the cost and skill investment.
Except you know, his ship jumped itself into system instead of needing a bridge.
Not today spaghetti.
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Chris Winter
Winters Are Coming
589
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Posted - 2014.12.31 17:06:37 -
[14] - Quote
Sexy Cakes wrote:
Except you know, his ship jumped itself into system instead of needing a bridge.
Irrelevant to the story. He was already in system at the start of the story. |
Torothin
TEC-NOLOGY
Sorry We're In Your Space Eh
258
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Posted - 2014.12.31 17:10:52 -
[15] - Quote
The Widow is outclassed by the Sin, Panther, and Redeemer. However, having a jamming blops or multiple jamming blops is very underrated and very useful. Especially when things go south after the hot drop. It's not meant to dish out dps nor is it meant to be a tanker. It's a jammer just like the scorp. |
Jack Morrison
Manson Family
Advent of Fate
172
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Posted - 2015.01.02 07:24:09 -
[16] - Quote
Torothin wrote:The Widow is outclassed by the Sin, Panther, and Redeemer. However, having a jamming blops or multiple jamming blops is very underrated and very useful. Especially when things go south after the hot drop. It's not meant to dish out dps nor is it meant to be a tanker. It's a jammer just like the scorp.
You are right Torothin, but the point is - if you have a fleet, you can take falcons instead for the fraction of the cost & skill requirements.
"This is nothing more than a rumor with no basis of fact. Hope that's enough of a confirmation for you guys. :)"
Coolstorybro
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Gregor Parud
828
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Posted - 2015.01.02 08:15:06 -
[17] - Quote
The only people who whine about how BO are "useless" and "bad" are the ones who have no clue on how to use them properly or haven't used them at all but are looking for some pwning machine that fits their fantasies about some sort of awesome ship.
Anyone who says the BO need Covops cloak to be "viable" is either dumb or a lying hypocrite (probably both). Anyone who is sane and knowledgeable realises that giving BO Covops cloak would be hilariously overpowered to the Nth degree and for that reason should never exist. Anyone who thinks he has some valid logic for why it should get covops cloak should be added to the "never to be listened to again" list so I'm going to do just that; OP should never be listened to again, on anything. |
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
566
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Posted - 2015.01.02 14:49:13 -
[18] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:The only people who whine about how BO are "useless" and "bad" are the ones who have no clue on how to use them properly or haven't used them at all but are looking for some pwning machine that fits their fantasies about some sort of awesome ship.
actually many just made the mistake of not flying redeemers.
The more objective people aren't asking for much here, we just want our rides more like redeemer. Not needing to spend billions to get there anyway. I have seen some great widow use in the past. After you throw in officer multi spec free up mids for a more proper shield tank and lows for damage application. Now if redeemer had this high gear price entry point....we'd say well okay.
Sadly redeemer doesn't need to be blinged out to extremes to perform however.
ECM use a blessing and a curse. TBH to resolve this I'd give it up. As as a widow pilot I was much happier to send in falcons to jam. But thats me. The green grass ideas some have of the BS e-war platforms is not all it the greatness they make it out to be based on my use. It lost its luster really in BS tiericide when even T1 scorpion shot up in price. I miss the good ole 70-80 mil hull it used to be.
Now I will agree that CO cloak is not the answer for blops. |
Gregor Parud
829
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Posted - 2015.01.02 15:12:13 -
[19] - Quote
There's a difference between "well, some BO are in need of some balancing or help and it wouldn't hurt to give it all a rethink" and "HOLY SHITBALLS BO SUCK LOL, GIEF COVOPS CLOAK SO I CAN SOLO ROAM TEH SKIES!!!!" like the OP is doing :) |
Caleb Seremshur
The Atomic Fallout Kids
443
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Posted - 2015.01.02 17:10:09 -
[20] - Quote
You've chosen to focus on one single point and make your whole case based on that. Wow. Well done.
I love it how people treat ecm like it's the grestest thing ever. Let's bresk it down this one time so you understand. The best non-officer fit you can get is 19.4 per racial. The average battleship has a sensor strength of 24. At best you have a 75% chance of jamming. On a "solo" fit like you pretend even exists the average jam strength max skilled is like 16.3. Per racial. Off racial you get like 5.1. Giving you what? 66% to jam on racial and 20% to jam off racial.
Now this is where the people touting ecm as the most amazing thing ever get it wrong. 20% to jam does not mean 1 out of every 5 jams goes through. It means you have an 80% chance to fail and will realistically fail many more times than succeed. The process of working out how a jam applies mathematically is not hard but I won't explain it here. I leave it to your own discovery.
Anyway no ecm doesn't work well. The widow is bad by association of ecm and the falcon/rook are similarly broken but at lesst they take only 26 days to max out and not 38 with a +5 clone. Says it all.
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Gregor Parud
829
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Posted - 2015.01.02 17:29:40 -
[21] - Quote
No. The implication of covert cloak BO would be such hilarious bullshit that it doesn't take many brain cells to figure out how and why that would be a really bad idea. The people who'd want it anyway are either lacking said brain cells or think having bullshit ships like that would be awesome, there literally is no other option and whichever it may be, the end result is that said person should not be taken serious.
BO in and of themselves are fine, the Widow is also fine, they could use a balancing pass in regards to basic stats but that would not include making them more combat capable (and 1 or 2 might even need a slight nerf in that regard). ECM being an issue is not something Widow specific and as CCP has stated that they're working on it makes any and all assumptions or ideas on how to change the ship (assuming it would even need it and I'd say that it doesn't) invalid. |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
Forged of Fire
772
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Posted - 2015.01.02 18:17:58 -
[22] - Quote
The Widow is far from useless - it can be a very good addition to a Black Ops hot drop gang, depending on what you are going after.
It also has some other uses if you are creative with it.
The Greatest Ship Ever. Credit to Shahfluffers.
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Fenris Orion
Rapid Withdrawal
26
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Posted - 2015.01.02 20:06:23 -
[23] - Quote
Seems to me that all of the Black-Ops are quirky, and more like overgrown Battlecruisers with special abilities rather than true Battleships. Given all the points about the Falcon being a superior ECM boat, why not forgo the ECM all together and go full tank n spank? Combined with Arazu/Rapier tackle and any number of torpedo-bombers, I think the Rapid Heavy Widow doesn't look so bad. Here's a fit I slapped together:
https://o.smium.org/loadout/18617 |
Gregor Parud
829
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Posted - 2015.01.02 20:17:08 -
[24] - Quote
Fenris Orion wrote:Seems to me that all of the Black-Ops are quirky, and more like overgrown Battlecruisers with special abilities rather than true Battleships. Given all the points about the Falcon being a superior ECM boat, why not forgo the ECM all together and go full tank n spank? Combined with Arazu/Rapier tackle and any number of torpedo-bombers, I think the Rapid Heavy Widow doesn't look so bad. Here's a fit I slapped together: https://o.smium.org/loadout/18617
That's... REALLY bad. Also, some key modules show you don't actually use BO's. |
Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
8250
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Posted - 2015.01.02 20:53:55 -
[25] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:Fenris Orion wrote:Seems to me that all of the Black-Ops are quirky, and more like overgrown Battlecruisers with special abilities rather than true Battleships. Given all the points about the Falcon being a superior ECM boat, why not forgo the ECM all together and go full tank n spank? Combined with Arazu/Rapier tackle and any number of torpedo-bombers, I think the Rapid Heavy Widow doesn't look so bad. Here's a fit I slapped together: https://o.smium.org/loadout/18617 That's... REALLY bad. Also, some key modules show you don't actually use BO's.
I don't do blops and I know that's bad.
"I'm also quite confident that you are laughing
and it's the kind of laugh that gives normal people shivers."
=]I[=
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Fenris Orion
Rapid Withdrawal
26
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Posted - 2015.01.02 21:45:24 -
[26] - Quote
I don't BLOPS either, and my post was posed more as a question than a statement, so educate me...
Bad because it doesn't make use of one of its bonuses? Not like there are plenty of hulls that give a bonus that goes mostly ignored. Active-repping Brutix, for one example.
Bad because of all the Meta modules? All the BLOPS seem really tight on cpu, and of course its up to you to bling the thing out with faction gear if you like. I just fit that as a possible example.
2,700dps burst reps doesn't seem terribad for that hull, all things considered, and 800+dps out is nothing to sneeze at.
Bad because the other 3 BLOPS out perform it? Well, if the pilot's training plan is Caldari specific, deal with it. I fly Gallente boats almost exclusively, so it's the Sin for me. I'll make due with what I have access to.
Excluding the factors above, do educate me on how awful it is. But do so constructively, as I was just trying to be helpful. |
Fenris Orion
Rapid Withdrawal
26
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Posted - 2015.01.03 00:28:51 -
[27] - Quote
Took some time to really compare the bonuses of all four BLOPS and found something interesting.
Both the Sin and Redeemer simply carry over the bonuses of their Navy Hull counterpart. Sin: 5% to hybrids and 10% to drones. Redeemer: 5% laser damage, 10% less cap use. Makes sense.
The Panther is an oddball as it ditches the roles of it's same-hull siblings and carries the damage bonus of the Tempest instead. Still 10% dps per skill level (5% damage, 5% RoF).
Widow is an oddball as it mixes the Navy Sorpions damage bonus with the T1 Scorp's ECM bonus, x2 (30% per level rather than 15%).
As far as balancing is concerned, it's easy to determine that the Widow could drop the ECM bonus, as none of the other BLOPBS carry an e-war or T1 related bonus. But what for?
Given the Widows Caldari lineage, I'd say either the shield resist bonus of the Navy Scorp or another 5% damage to keep up with the competition. Just my thoughts on the matter. |
Gregor Parud
830
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Posted - 2015.01.03 01:26:39 -
[28] - Quote
Perhaps it would be best if you would just stop thinking. |
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
Forged of Fire
774
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Posted - 2015.01.03 01:42:27 -
[29] - Quote
Fenris, the Widow is a fine ship, just not the way you are fitting it.
The Greatest Ship Ever. Credit to Shahfluffers.
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Tempelman N
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
10
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Posted - 2015.01.03 01:53:06 -
[30] - Quote
I agree, I fly widow and its just bad, there's now way around it. I can push almost 1000 DPS out of my bomber, and that's only with the ship and mod coming to 200 million. I think blops need Interdiction nullification, there as expensive as a carrier, and now with the jump fatigue I can't Slam down a target and jump out within 30 seconds any more. The point behind Blops is to be, a deep space behind enemy lines, for the widow in this case JAMMER/DPS. I think Blops need too have more DPS and covert ops cloaks, THERE AS EXPENSIVE AS CARRIERS, and as far as I can tell a good Carrier can Tank ALOT of people. Making the Blops just as expensive but can't tank for ****, at least make it slippery. Also most Blops are almost out DPS'ed from a bomber WTF. I'v done Covert ops for 4 and a half years and lead more then 300 fleets, I can count on one hand how many times I'v used my widow, its just useless plain and simple. |
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