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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 6 post(s)
Miss Overlord Gallente Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2006.09.13 20:59:00 - [31] we all know CCP like to stuff new content in before bug fixing and the game is still running its the fix it later attitude that creates the fun

Wrangler	Posted - 2006.09.13 21:10:00 - [32] Oh my, when we announce new content people tell us to fix bugs. When we announce bug fixes, people tell us to add content... Wrangler Assistant Community Manager EVE Online Contact Support - Contact Moderators - Report Bug - Submit News Leads Knowledge Base - Player Guide - Policies - Join ISD - Fan Submissions

maGz The Priory	Posted - 2006.09.13 21:20:00 - [33] Edited by: maGz on 13/09/2006 21:20:16 Originally by: Wrangler Oh my, when we announce new content people tell us to fix bugs. When we announce bug fixes, people tell us to add content... Well the new content will most likely be bugged to hell anyways, so you can't really blaim us. I see your point, but fact remains; you released the Dragon-patch in hopes of solving some code-related issues or whatever. However this patch hasn't really improved anything at all, yet you guys continue to talk about new content, fixes to starbases etc. instead of dealing with the issues at hand, that are, in my opionion, more pressing than meeting a deadline in regards to the release of Kali. ____________ The Priory Killboard
LaCoHa Acerbus Vindictum	Posted - 2006.09.13 21:21:00 - [34] Edited by: LaCoHa on 13/09/2006 21:21:21 Originally by: Wrangler Those of you who watch AFV knows they sometimes do "bad news, good news" and I thought I'd try to do it myself. Bad news: This dev blog is a short one. Good news: Everyone is working hard in preparation for the Kali testing which will begin soon. Life Continues... oh christ.. 90% of the eve forum community could have guessed that. thanks for the update. now go buy a beer with my 30 usd for this month.

Wrangler	Posted - 2006.09.13 21:27:00 - [35] The people adding content is, strangely enough, in the content department. They can't fix bugs, a lot of devs can't fix bugs, they work on other areas of the game. The people who can fix bugs, find out what the problem is with some things etc, are doing just that. The argument "fix bugs before adding content" assumes that all devs can do all tasks there are, which just is not true. Yes, I completely understand that people are upset, we're not happy about it either, but reality doesn't change what people know about and can do. Wrangler Assistant Community Manager EVE Online Contact Support - Contact Moderators - Report Bug - Submit News Leads Knowledge Base - Player Guide - Policies - Join ISD - Fan Submissions

Doppleganger Minmatar Band of Builders Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.09.13 21:27:00 - [36] I don't know why you guys never mention when you are coming to Austin before you get here. Many of those cheap beers could be free beers....
Franken Slammer Caldari Universal Manufacturing Corporation Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2006.09.13 21:40:00 - [37] You want bug testing, eh? Put kali on the test server! /me wants to play with the new toys! There are 2 rules in life. #1. Don't tell people everything you know.
SengH Black Omega Security E.R.A	Posted - 2006.09.13 22:28:00 - [38] Edited by: SengH on 13/09/2006 22:28:19 Originally by: Wrangler The people adding content is, strangely enough, in the content department. They can't fix bugs, a lot of devs can't fix bugs, they work on other areas of the game. The people who can fix bugs, find out what the problem is with some things etc, are doing just that. The argument "fix bugs before adding content" assumes that all devs can do all tasks there are, which just is not true. Yes, I completely understand that people are upset, we're not happy about it either, but reality doesn't change what people know about and can do. What people are trying to get at I think, is that it is the responsibility of the content department to try and reduce the number of bugs that are introduced by their new content (or heck at least make sure they work). Instead of rushing features out to make a deadline and having them bugridden and broken till 3 patches down the line just so you can say well XXX feature was in kali one, but no one was really able to use it till kali 3/buddah etc... which doesnt really help anyone and instead exacerbates the situation. ---------------------------------------- Back for a month cus BS5 finished.....
maGz The Priory	Posted - 2006.09.13 22:40:00 - [39] Originally by: SengH Edited by: SengH on 13/09/2006 22:28:19 Originally by: Wrangler The people adding content is, strangely enough, in the content department. They can't fix bugs, a lot of devs can't fix bugs, they work on other areas of the game. The people who can fix bugs, find out what the problem is with some things etc, are doing just that. The argument "fix bugs before adding content" assumes that all devs can do all tasks there are, which just is not true. Yes, I completely understand that people are upset, we're not happy about it either, but reality doesn't change what people know about and can do. What people are trying to get at I think, is that it is the responsibility of the content department to try and reduce the number of bugs that are introduced by their new content (or heck at least make sure they work). Instead of rushing features out to make a deadline and having them bugridden and broken till 3 patches down the line just so you can say well XXX feature was in kali one, but no one was really able to use it till kali 3/buddah etc... which doesnt really help anyone and instead exacerbates the situation. Spot on ____________ The Priory Killboard
Brolly Caldari The Department of Justice	Posted - 2006.09.13 22:44:00 - [40] Originally by: Spaja Saist Maybe if the Devs spent less time getting drunk and more time working on the game we wouldn't have all these bugs. Apparently one of the prerequisites for becoming an EVE dev is you have to be an alcoholic. That seems to be all they are capable of talking about. OMFG!, I have a great idea, I'm gonna save up all year, go to the fanfest and get all of CCP VERY drunk whilst talking about R&D...just maybe they may implement a really cool, fun and intresting system. /me goes to get a (better) job
Akemi Sakurai Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2006.09.13 22:46:00 - [41] Originally by: Wrangler The people adding content is, strangely enough, in the content department. They can't fix bugs, a lot of devs can't fix bugs, they work on other areas of the game. The people who can fix bugs, find out what the problem is with some things etc, are doing just that. The argument "fix bugs before adding content" assumes that all devs can do all tasks there are, which just is not true. Yes, I completely understand that people are upset, we're not happy about it either, but reality doesn't change what people know about and can do. Fire half your content creators and replace them with twice as many bug fixers? I like new content too, but all the problems with Eve are just killing my fun.
Valator Uel Caldari Pax Minor Asylum Confederation of Independent Corporations	Posted - 2006.09.13 23:07:00 - [42] Originally by: Wrangler The people adding content is, strangely enough, in the content department. They can't fix bugs, a lot of devs can't fix bugs, they work on other areas of the game. The people who can fix bugs, find out what the problem is with some things etc, are doing just that. The argument "fix bugs before adding content" assumes that all devs can do all tasks there are, which just is not true. Yes, I completely understand that people are upset, we're not happy about it either, but reality doesn't change what people know about and can do. ... or have your content devs submit their work straight to the bug fixers Jokes aside, imho the problem is with the testing and deadlines. Not enough testing + too short deadline = bad content + bugs. What you should do is encourage people to come test and give time for the bug fixers to fix the bugs. If something is not ready don't put it in, simple as that. All it means is regular patches instead of big ones that flop.
Coran Ordus Ominous Corp Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2006.09.13 23:35:00 - [43] Originally by: Akemi Sakurai Fire half your content creators and replace them with twice as many bug fixers? I like new content too, but all the problems with Eve are just killing my fun. More people working on a project does NOT equal faster results or fewer bugs. Please go read 'The Mythical Man Month' and stop with the amateur project management.
Verite Rendition Caldari AUS Corporation CORE.	Posted - 2006.09.13 23:56:00 - [44] Originally by: Akemi Sakurai Originally by: Wrangler The people adding content is, strangely enough, in the content department. They can't fix bugs, a lot of devs can't fix bugs, they work on other areas of the game. The people who can fix bugs, find out what the problem is with some things etc, are doing just that. The argument "fix bugs before adding content" assumes that all devs can do all tasks there are, which just is not true. Yes, I completely understand that people are upset, we're not happy about it either, but reality doesn't change what people know about and can do. Fire half your content creators and replace them with twice as many bug fixers? I like new content too, but all the problems with Eve are just killing my fun. There's no need to fire them, just go have them either bug-hunt or help the GMs with petitions for a week. Neither require highly advanced skills. ---- AUS Corp Lead Megalomanic
Hydrian Alante The Loot Company	Posted - 2006.09.14 01:29:00 - [45] Originally by: Wrangler The people adding content is, strangely enough, in the content department. They can't fix bugs, a lot of devs can't fix bugs, they work on other areas of the game. The people who can fix bugs, find out what the problem is with some things etc, are doing just that. The argument "fix bugs before adding content" assumes that all devs can do all tasks there are, which just is not true. Then fire some of the content guys and hire more programmes that can fix bugs and do balancing stuff. I can wait some months before kali hits the server If I get a faster, less laggy and more belanced game. I think I¦m not the only one who thinks so.
Hon Kovell Gallente Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.09.14 01:35:00 - [46] The silo bonuses might be fixed? Working Gallente towers? This could be the biggest revolution in industrial POS since the Medium and Large Bread Slicing Batteries were introduced!
fuze Gallente Chosen Path Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.09.14 05:46:00 - [47] Originally by: Wrangler Oh my, when we announce new content people tell us to fix bugs. When we announce bug fixes, people tell us to add content... You forgot to mention that even though bugs are fixed and new content is added we like big massive fleetfights without massive lag also. Its called the conservation law of misery. (Derived from Murphy's law)
franny Phoenix Knights	Posted - 2006.09.14 06:20:00 - [48] just how is this different than the starbase/pos overhaul that people have been posting issues with here for the last 3mths in what way?
Tachy	Posted - 2006.09.14 06:32:00 - [49] /me is happy that the content devs will be working on petitions and on bugfixing on a rotating schedule to leanrn how to avoid building broken content in the future that always ended in massive petition queues. --==*-- Even with nougat, you can have a perfect moment.
Akemi Sakurai Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2006.09.14 06:39:00 - [50] Originally by: Coran Ordus Originally by: Akemi Sakurai Fire half your content creators and replace them with twice as many bug fixers? I like new content too, but all the problems with Eve are just killing my fun. More people working on a project does NOT equal faster results or fewer bugs. Please go read 'The Mythical Man Month' and stop with the amateur project management. Point taken, but the difference is that the author speaks from experience where he works on projects that do end, whereas Eve is a continuous project that will only end when CCP quits or can't add anything else to the game. New people will eventually be hired and the project slows down until they get them trained. What better time than now? Up to a point, hiring more is still beneficial. Just need to be careful that not too many are hired. It's frustrating that content keeps getting added faster than they can fix existing problems so I still like the idea of firing some of their content creators to slow them down. I am aware than some new content is what fixes problems e.g. the contract system (somewhat) and tech 2 research changes.
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.09.14 07:15:00 - [51] Originally by: Wrangler Oh my, when we announce new content people tell us to fix bugs. When we announce bug fixes, people tell us to add content... I'd think by now you'd know that the masses can't ever be happy. Sorry you can't afford a dev so you get me instead ^^ - Xorus I hear Xorus is only 50 isk an hour - Immy Oooh that could get Suvetar for the day! - Cathath
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.09.14 07:18:00 - [52] Originally by: SengH What people are trying to get at I think, is that it is the responsibility of the content department to try and reduce the number of bugs that are introduced by their new content (or heck at least make sure they work). Instead of rushing features out to make a deadline and having them bugridden and broken till 3 patches down the line just so you can say well XXX feature was in kali one, but no one was really able to use it till kali 3/buddah etc... which doesnt really help anyone and instead exacerbates the situation. You totally missed the part where Wrangler mentioned content people can't code, didn't you? Content people create things, devs and other programmers add it, and it's rarely bug-free, welcome to the world of programming. You seem to think the content guys code the stuff themselves, if they did, they'd beable to help fix bugs. since they probably have nfc what the code means if they saw it, why would you think they're the ones coding it and are able to make it bugfree from the get go? Sorry you can't afford a dev so you get me instead ^^ - Xorus I hear Xorus is only 50 isk an hour - Immy Oooh that could get Suvetar for the day! - Cathath
Mordoc Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.14 08:10:00 - [53] Wrangler, since the Bug team will not even admit that there are issues at large since the Dragon patch that make it all but impossible to play the game, will you please go to thier office and TELL THEM TO TELL US SOMETHING!! I think a lot of this flaming will slow if CCP was to at least let us know whats going on. It is the least CCP can do for thier fans (subscribers). Incoming fire always has the right of way.
FireFoxx80 Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.09.14 09:15:00 - [54] According to sharkbait in this post, Kali1 will go into testing on SiSi next Tue/Wed (19/20). What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass!
StarLite Amarr Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.09.14 09:23:00 - [55] zomg, the new gang system sounds nice! ___________________________________________________ This sig is guarded by SigGuard(c) This sig was hijacked by SigBusterÖ - Wrangler Wrangler nerfed my HiJack and all I got was this gold colour :( -Capsicum I am a lawyer for SnigguardÖ, we will be in touch - Cortes
D'onryu Shoqui Gallente Vengeance of the Fallen Imperium Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.14 10:15:00 - [56] glorify beer more please its the responsible thing to do
Ethidium Bromide ZEALOT WARRIORS AGAINST TERRORISTS Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.14 11:32:00 - [57] just an idea but if you'd announce when a new client version hits SiSi in the news box on the login screen maybe more people would be there to help out testing.. or maybe not.. as i said, just an idea Originally by: George Petsch Nochricht: Dei schwarer StroinlSser trifftn Karli[Baatzis] und ruiniert erm so richtig de Dosn, 1343.7 schhodn, oida. My sig is blue not pink although i can't argue with the slave part - Xorus wth whats this blue stuff all of a sudden? Did I miss a mail? -eris Bwahahahaha!11 Immy was here
Matthew Caldari BloodStar Technologies	Posted - 2006.09.14 11:44:00 - [58] Originally by: SengH What people are trying to get at I think, is that it is the responsibility of the content department to try and reduce the number of bugs that are introduced by their new content (or heck at least make sure they work). It's actually quite hard for the content department to create real bugs. About the best they can do is incorrect/unbalanced attributes or misleading descriptions. Most of the bugs come in when the programming team implement the code required for major new systems. Once that system's in place, the content department then get to tweak it a bit, but they can't then tamper with the underlying code structure themselves. Hence why new content such as Tier 3 battleships is really nice - no new code, just some new stats and a new ship model. Of course, there are other features in kali that will have required programmer time (contracts, seamless map, new scanning etc). While these do suck up time that programmers could be using fixing bugs, they also completely replace existing systems, rendering the value of further bugfixes on the old systems questionable anyway. After all, what's the point in investing hugs amounts of time patching up the old and decrepit escrow system, when you have the shiny new contracts system on the table? Do you live with non-gamebreaking bugs for a few months and get the shiny new system in kali1, or do you constantly band-aid over the old system and mean that contracts get pushed back to Kali3? ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines.
Monica Foulkes Hooligans Of War	Posted - 2006.09.14 11:58:00 - [59] Originally by: Jinx Barker Edited by: Jinx Barker on 13/09/2006 19:13:33 I still think that POS should be incorporated into a single structure with a limited number of docked pilots. This whole anchoring business is just crazy. Especially after refiting the ship, or boarding the ship where sometimes you appear to loose all skills and unable to fly the damn thing. And the lag they are causing, oh dear Lord, I cant even think of it. Again, would be nice if POS was dockable by a lmited number of users, lets say no more than 5 or 10 at the time, and it would look like this: Image Courtesy of Evelgrivion You can see some further details here: Linkage Here is his dedicated thread to the new POS structures including a few suggestions that will change POS warfare quite a bit. The 8h skill buffer
SengH Black Omega Security E.R.A	Posted - 2006.09.14 12:32:00 - [60] Edited by: SengH on 14/09/2006 12:32:38 Originally by: Malthros Zenobia You totally missed the part where Wrangler mentioned content people can't code, didn't you? Content people create things, devs and other programmers add it, and it's rarely bug-free, welcome to the world of programming. You seem to think the content guys code the stuff themselves, if they did, they'd beable to help fix bugs. since they probably have nfc what the code means if they saw it, why would you think they're the ones coding it and are able to make it bugfree from the get go? Lets see a number of famous bugs that were created by content ppl. 1. Wasp Tracking 2. TP + MWD 3. Dreadnought Cyno's not working 4. Cyno + Cloak 5. Soverignity (LOLOLOL) There are a ton more but its 5am and my brain still isnt fully awake yet. When they implement a new system/idea, its their responsibility to make sure it doesnt break stuff thats already working before pushing it live. Originally by: Matthew It's actually quite hard for the content department to create real bugs. About the best they can do is incorrect/unbalanced attributes or misleading descriptions. Most of the bugs come in when the programming team implement the code required for major new systems. Once that system's in place, the content department then get to tweak it a bit, but they can't then tamper with the underlying code structure themselves. Hence why new content such as Tier 3 battleships is really nice - no new code, just some new stats and a new ship model. Of course, there are other features in kali that will have required programmer time (contracts, seamless map, new scanning etc). While these do suck up time that programmers could be using fixing bugs, they also completely replace existing systems, rendering the value of further bugfixes on the old systems questionable anyway. After all, what's the point in investing hugs amounts of time patching up the old and decrepit escrow system, when you have the shiny new contracts system on the table? Do you live with non-gamebreaking bugs for a few months and get the shiny new system in kali1, or do you constantly band-aid over the old system and mean that contracts get pushed back to Kali3? Unbalanced attributes/Incorrect attributes can cause more problems than you realise. Ie. if your ROF goes below 1s, EVE starts losing packets. ---------------------------------------- Back for a month cus BS5 finished.....

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