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Gregor Parud 844	Posted - 2015.01.04 11:04:42 - [1] - Quote This is what it says in the welcome mail a new account gets. Quote: The currency of EVE Online is Interstellar Kredits (ISK), and you're going to want lots of it. Luckily, it's pretty easy to come by, and there are several ways for new players to begin acquiring it. Agent Missions GÇô The Empires of New Eden and their agents offer missions to pilots capable of getting the job done. These missions reward pilots with ISK and loot as well taking you to every corner of Empire space. Mining GÇô Ore is mined from asteroids, which can then be sold or reprocessed into minerals. The minerals, along with a blueprint, are used to manufacture items and ships; alternatively they can be sold on the market directly. No wonder newbies have this warped sense of priorities and limited gameplay choices, IT'S CCP TELLING THEM TO GO GRIND! seriously, this is really really bad.
Blake Lowe The Icarus Expedition The Daedalus Imperium 1	Posted - 2015.01.04 11:51:46 - [2] - Quote If that's all it reads (When was this mail introduced, I don't remember being told to mine?) that is a little bit strange. Surely encouraging new players to get out there and try the fun aspects of EVE ISK making is a better idea. Outline all(prevalent few) the ISK making activities or none, as to not change the newbies' thoughts on the flexibility of the game. After all, who wants to sit there and watch a beam flick on and off for hours on end?
Gregor Parud 848	Posted - 2015.01.04 12:45:54 - [3] - Quote This is the full mail: Quote: GET STARTED The currency of EVE Online is Interstellar Kredits (ISK), and you're going to want lots of it. Luckily, it's pretty easy to come by, and there are several ways for new players to begin acquiring it. Agent Missions GÇô The Empires of New Eden and their agents offer missions to pilots capable of getting the job done. These missions reward pilots with ISK and loot as well taking you to every corner of Empire space. Mining GÇô Ore is mined from asteroids, which can then be sold or reprocessed into minerals. The minerals, along with a blueprint, are used to manufacture items and ships; alternatively they can be sold on the market directly. Visit the Eve Online new player FAQ to find out everything you need to know on your journey into New Eden. SEEK OUT ALLIES Joining a player corporation is a great way to discover and experience much of what EVE Online has to offer, especially when venturing into PVP and more advanced gameplay. Below you can find some useful links regarding joining a player corporation. Player education corporations - Dozens of corporations dedicate themselves to helping new players start their careers in EVE. In Game Corporation Finder - Click the Corporation icon in the Neocom and then select the Recruitment tab. Welcome to EVE Online! - The EVE Online Dev Team While explains a bit more it doesn't in any way diminish the idea that EVE is about Isk grinding.
Celine Sophia Maricadie Tal-Cel Industry and Salvage LLC 169	Posted - 2015.01.04 13:41:28 - [4] - Quote I don't think it's as bad as you're perceiving it. Could it be better? Yes, of course. It could tell them in the first section that after they get started and skilled up in areas that interest them they can then go out and find better ways of earning ISK. It's addressed to new players, and for them to earn ISK missions and mining are a decent start for them. The second part of the mail obviously directs them to seek further information and resources. Naturally, new players need to earn as they learn and there is nothing wrong with earning ISK in the ways suggested for them. As they're doing this then if they follow the second part of the mailing they will get in touch with more experienced players who can guide them in many different areas and into ways of earning ISK besides those initial, viable for new player methods. They will learn that the game is very deep and well beyond grinding ISK. Those that chose or just don't connect with the player community will be doomed, of course, but you can't drag them over that line. They aren't going to find the game rewarding, aside from those that enjoy solo missioning and mining, and if that's what a loner likes, who cares . Eve is a sandbox and you can't force anyone to another's way of playing in the sandbox.
Gregor Parud 849	Posted - 2015.01.04 13:45:32 - [5] - Quote The point is my realisation that all the terrible "what's the best way to make isk" and "should I run missions or mine" questions in Rookie aren't necessarily the result of newbies being grind bears but rather CCP telling them to become grind bears right from the start. I find it appalling.
Shin Katsumoto The Zetetic Elench Tungsten Dominion 4	Posted - 2015.01.04 13:50:24 - [6] - Quote Gregor Parud wrote: This is what it says in the welcome mail a new account gets. Quote: The currency of EVE Online is Interstellar Kredits (ISK), and you're going to want lots of it. Luckily, it's pretty easy to come by, and there are several ways for new players to begin acquiring it. Agent Missions GÇô The Empires of New Eden and their agents offer missions to pilots capable of getting the job done. These missions reward pilots with ISK and loot as well taking you to every corner of Empire space. Mining GÇô Ore is mined from asteroids, which can then be sold or reprocessed into minerals. The minerals, along with a blueprint, are used to manufacture items and ships; alternatively they can be sold on the market directly. No wonder newbies have this warped sense of priorities and limited gameplay choices, IT'S CCP TELLING THEM TO GO GRIND! seriously, this is really really bad. Not only grind but those two things are arguably the most boring activities in the game! However, as a noob, I have to say that those two activities are the only two which are easy to get into to. Everything else takes quite a lot of effort and/or skill training and/or ISK and I don't even know how to get into most of the fun stuff in the game such as fleet PvP, Incursions etc. Seems like CCP need to re-design their new player experience, not by just tutorials, but with activities which are actually fun and easy to get into. However after 10 years, somehow I doubt that it will happen. Their loss though because a lot of people, like me, want to get into EVE but get stuck doing those two boring-ass activities and after they done it for days, they get ganked and lose everything. Logical resolution = rage-quit.
Gregor Parud 850	Posted - 2015.01.04 13:55:38 - [7] - Quote They change the NPE all the time and they could easily create tutorial combat sigs if they wanted to where it would actually drop something of (small) value, or more interactive ways to explain salvaging or perhaps even some basic trading/hauling options with NPC buy/sell orders. There's tons of ways for newbies to make isk and it doesn't take much effort to explain these.
Celine Sophia Maricadie Tal-Cel Industry and Salvage LLC 171	Posted - 2015.01.04 13:56:44 - [8] - Quote Okay, so then what's you're solution then? Perhaps craft your own draft and suggest it. You never know, it may well be accepted. New players, no matter what, tend to ask a lot of "what's the best..." type of questions, and those of us in the Help channels do our best to help them through that. It's in their nature to ask questions of that sort, especially if they've been very used to gaming in theme-park style games. I personally don't see it as CCP setting them up to be grind bears, but I just keep in mind what realistic options are open for new players and how to help best direct them to the resources. You have to admit, the mail does give them that. When I read the mail as a whole I don't see it as setting them up to be grind bears, but that is my perception on it. If I were to focus only on the initial part of the mail, and discount that it is addressing new players for how to start out, then I'd be seeing as a "go grind ISK" message. Again, this is how I see it, and I'm not discounting your point of view on it . Edit: Eve is "player driven content" and yes, the NPE could always become better than it is, but it has evolved. And there are many new players who find themselves in the care and direction of more experienced players. This is the difference, and it's not really up to CCP, in my opinion, to craft "proper, ready to go, newbs" who have all the answers and don't act like new players do....
Gregor Parud 850	Posted - 2015.01.04 14:04:53 - [9] - Quote Oh yes, I help newbies a lot and have done so for many years, in many different ways. First of all change the initial exposure to EVE away from "must do basic mind numbing stuff" by either expanding on the fact that there's tons of choices and options and above all avoid the "it's all about that isk" silliness. Empowering newbies by showing them that it's fine to not rush ahead but instead slow down, look around and find the funky side of things is the way forward for a sandbox like EVE. The career tutorials (and the newbie systems as a whole) need a massive rethink. They're limited, boring, and the hilarious amount of text windows make new players just uninstall the game in disgust.
Tsukino Stareine Serene Vendetta Brawls Deep 796	Posted - 2015.01.04 14:23:09 - [10] - Quote there's a new player mail???
Gregor Parud 850	Posted - 2015.01.04 14:26:06 - [11] - Quote Not sure if it's a new mail but it's sent to new accounts :)
voetius Quiet Days in Clichy 332	Posted - 2015.01.04 18:09:15 - [12] - Quote If you want to do something positive like run a competition to design a welcome mail I would be happy to donate some prizes or something Gregor. I tend to agree with Celine that if you are going to offer suggestions they need to be practical, which is not to say that you are wrong of course.
Gregor Parud 853	Posted - 2015.01.04 18:20:06 - [13] - Quote I'll think of something and set it up, no need for financial help in that regard. Damnit, this might actually get me more active again.
Herzyr Ministry of War Amarr Empire 18	Posted - 2015.01.04 18:53:07 - [14] - Quote Well of course mining is a good income for newbies sir! I started out mining with my venture, I upgraded to a procurer, then to a retriever, only to lose it to a gank. Then I branched out after I got enough capital. See? Nothing wrong about that, except that mining hits a gap very fast if you are soloing but its a excelent way to get some seed money
Mr Epeen It's All About Me 7429	Posted - 2015.01.04 19:11:53 - [15] - Quote What do you want, Gregor? "Hi new player, I know you have 5000 ISK and no clue how to get more. Well, ignore the only two things you can do to make ISK and get a handle on the basic mechanics in the first few days and set up a 0.0 alliance. Or park at a gate and use your newbship to gank a freighter. Or make a corp and declare war on the rest of New Eden. Oh yeah...sorry, you need ISK for that. Forget I mentioned it." Seriously! What do you think should be suggested to a day-one player? There is plenty that can be done to improve the NPE, but selectively quoting the mail and starting a whine thread is not one of them. Mr Epeen There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
Gregor Parud 853	Posted - 2015.01.04 19:29:12 - [16] - Quote Mr Epeen wrote: the only two things you can do to make ISK First of all that's a lie. Secondly the whole "quickly, make isk IIIISK!!!!! GOTTA MAKE ISK, GO GRIIIIIIND!!! IIIIIIIISK (p.s. if you don't want to make isk you can also buy these handy plex things)" is terrible.
Celine Sophia Maricadie Tal-Cel Industry and Salvage LLC 175	Posted - 2015.01.04 21:01:50 - [17] - Quote Gregor Parud wrote: Mr Epeen wrote: the only two things you can do to make ISK First of all that's a lie. Secondly the whole "quickly, make isk IIIISK!!!!! GOTTA MAKE ISK, GO GRIIIIIIND!!! IIIIIIIISK (p.s. if you don't want to make isk you can also buy these handy plex things)" is terrible. This seems to be turning into more of a rant by the OP rather than suggesting some possible changes. Eve New Citizens Q&A simply isn't the place for a rant. Make some possible suggestions to help, or htfu where it comes to your obviously narrow and bitter vet interpretation of the mail. Most posting here seem to see the positives in what the mail does point to and offer. And we seemed to have made it through the NPE. I look forward to your concise guide for newbros on the better ways to fund themselves in their beginning days rather than the obvious mechanics offered by and pointed to in the mailing. Many players who stick around obviously move on from things you personally abhor, but then again, it's a sandbox, ins't it, and some will happily do those things for years. I think you're just tired of seeing the same newbro questions that they're inevitably going to have and want to point (unneeded) blame somewhere, because it's becoming apparent to me that you want some form of perfection so those questions never get asked and you never have to see them again. Come up with positive suggestions, and drop the rant.
Mr Epeen It's All About Me 7433	Posted - 2015.01.04 21:56:12 - [18] - Quote Celine Sophia Maricadie wrote: This seems to be turning into more of a rant by the OP rather than suggesting some possible changes. Turning into a rant? It was a rant from the first word. This needs to be moved to GD where we can respond to the OP in the proper manner and then locked for whining. Mr Epeen There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass!
Gregor Parud 854	Posted - 2015.01.04 21:57:05 - [19] - Quote Which part of "I'll think of something and set it up." didn't you get. As a mining alt I can see why you're reacting as you are.
J'Poll Green Skull LLC 5306	Posted - 2015.01.04 22:09:53 - [20] - Quote Mr Epeen wrote: Celine Sophia Maricadie wrote: This seems to be turning into more of a rant by the OP rather than suggesting some possible changes. Turning into a rant? It was a rant from the first word. This needs to be moved to GD where we can respond to the OP in the proper manner and then locked for whining. Mr Epeen Agreed: Is it a Question or a general helpful post to assist new players? Nope, so not NCQA food. So where should it be? Does have a nice concrete idea that would benefit EVE? Yes > F&I No > GD Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club
ISD Ezwal ISD Community Communications Liaisons 3373	Posted - 2015.01.04 22:24:11 - [21] - Quote This thread has been moved to EVE General Discussion. ISD Ezwal Vice Admiral Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department
Koebmand Silverflames 8	Posted - 2015.01.04 23:13:45 - [22] - Quote Saying that mining and missions are the only options for ISK income for new players is wrong in my opinion. I rather quickly got into exploration, and I think it is a good way for the new player to get their first income. Start in high sec, get scan and hack routine + some basic skills and money for a few replacement ships. Soon as I could cloak I moved to null sites, using WHs to not have to worry about gate camps. It is not super steady income, but you get to see a lot of the different parts of the game. It doesn't get you involved in large group content though, but missions and mining is done rather alone by most/many people too.
Mharius Skjem Opacity Circles 295	Posted - 2015.01.04 23:30:11 - [23] - Quote Gregor Parud wrote: This is what it says in the welcome mail a new account gets. Quote: The currency of EVE Online is Interstellar Kredits (ISK), and you're going to want lots of it. Luckily, it's pretty easy to come by, and there are several ways for new players to begin acquiring it. Agent Missions GÇô The Empires of New Eden and their agents offer missions to pilots capable of getting the job done. These missions reward pilots with ISK and loot as well taking you to every corner of Empire space. Mining GÇô Ore is mined from asteroids, which can then be sold or reprocessed into minerals. The minerals, along with a blueprint, are used to manufacture items and ships; alternatively they can be sold on the market directly. No wonder newbies have this warped sense of priorities and limited gameplay choices, IT'S CCP TELLING THEM TO GO GRIND! seriously, this is really really bad. It's only a prompt, eve is an economic game at its core so getting new players to understand that is a good thing. A recovering btter vet, with a fresh toon and a determination to like everything that CCP does to Eve... Don't take me too seriously though, I like to tease a bit on the forums, but that's only because I love you...
Johan Civire The Lyran Empire 915	Posted - 2015.01.04 23:47:45 - [24] - Quote Gregor Parud wrote: This is what it says in the welcome mail a new account gets. Quote: The currency of EVE Online is Interstellar Kredits (ISK), and you're going to want lots of it. Luckily, it's pretty easy to come by, and there are several ways for new players to begin acquiring it. Agent Missions GÇô The Empires of New Eden and their agents offer missions to pilots capable of getting the job done. These missions reward pilots with ISK and loot as well taking you to every corner of Empire space. Mining GÇô Ore is mined from asteroids, which can then be sold or reprocessed into minerals. The minerals, along with a blueprint, are used to manufacture items and ships; alternatively they can be sold on the market directly. No wonder newbies have this warped sense of priorities and limited gameplay choices, IT'S CCP TELLING THEM TO GO GRIND! seriously, this is really really bad. Real noobs don`t read wall of text in any game?! the want the action not reading a book!
Wendrika Hydreiga 222	Posted - 2015.01.05 00:14:26 - [25] - Quote But won't new players learn how the game works by mining and doing missions? I mean, sure, you guys want newbies to jump straight to lowsec/nullsec on their Ibis and enjoy the glory that is PvP, but the honest true to heart newbie barely knows how to move the ship around! Mining gives them a good perception on how EVE is mostly a waiting game. You wait for skills, for fleets, for research, for mining cycles, wait while looking for fights and data/relic sites. They are going to need patience and mining will give them a crash course. Missions gives them the basics of combat. How to move, how to target, how to shoot. Those first level 1s on their skilless frigates are going to be hard for a newbie that barely knows how to undock. And exciting. Honestly, if anything, the mail is missing an entire line encouraging them to join Faction War.
Sol Project I'm So Meta Even This Acronym 2468	Posted - 2015.01.05 00:16:20 - [26] - Quote Holy ****, this is bad! O_O Ladies of New Eden YC 117 by Indahmawar Fazmarai Warning: NSFW! Barely legal girls in underwear! Diana Kim > AND THIS IS WHY THE FEDERATION MUST BE DESTROYED!!
Sol Project I'm So Meta Even This Acronym 2468	Posted - 2015.01.05 00:17:58 - [27] - Quote Wendrika Hydreiga wrote: But won't new players learn how the game works by mining and doing missions? No. Please explain me what a new player learns about the game ... ... while not playing the game. Missions ... okay ... he can learn quite a bit that way, but mining? This **** is nuts. Ladies of New Eden YC 117 by Indahmawar Fazmarai Warning: NSFW! Barely legal girls in underwear! Diana Kim > AND THIS IS WHY THE FEDERATION MUST BE DESTROYED!!
Wendrika Hydreiga 222	Posted - 2015.01.05 00:27:49 - [28] - Quote Sol Project wrote: Wendrika Hydreiga wrote: But won't new players learn how the game works by mining and doing missions? No. Well... I learned a lot on the first week with my Venture. Just saying. Didn't you mined too when you first started out Sol?
Nevyn Auscent Broke Sauce 1858	Posted - 2015.01.05 00:36:08 - [29] - Quote Gregor Parud wrote: Oh yes, I help newbies a lot and have done so for many years, in many different ways. First of all change the initial exposure to EVE away from "must do basic mind numbing stuff" by either expanding on the fact that there's tons of choices and options and above all avoid the "it's all about that isk" silliness. Empowering newbies by showing them that it's fine to not rush ahead but instead slow down, look around and find the funky side of things is the way forward for a sandbox like EVE. The career tutorials (and the newbie systems as a whole) need a massive rethink. They're limited, boring, and the hilarious amount of text windows make new players just uninstall the game in disgust. So I take it you are going to personally fund every new player all their ships and implants and skill books? Because EVE is all about Isk. Without isk you can't do anything. Even more so than skills, Low skills you can fit Tech 1, it might be terrible compared to a Meta 4 or T2 fit, but it still flies. But without isk you can't even fit T1. Or buy skill books.
Gregor Parud 857	Posted - 2015.01.05 00:45:02 - [30] - Quote Nevyn Auscent wrote: Gregor Parud wrote: Oh yes, I help newbies a lot and have done so for many years, in many different ways. First of all change the initial exposure to EVE away from "must do basic mind numbing stuff" by either expanding on the fact that there's tons of choices and options and above all avoid the "it's all about that isk" silliness. Empowering newbies by showing them that it's fine to not rush ahead but instead slow down, look around and find the funky side of things is the way forward for a sandbox like EVE. The career tutorials (and the newbie systems as a whole) need a massive rethink. They're limited, boring, and the hilarious amount of text windows make new players just uninstall the game in disgust. So I take it you are going to personally fund every new player all their ships and implants and skill books? Because EVE is all about Isk. Without isk you can't do anything. Even more so than skills, Low skills you can fit Tech 1, it might be terrible compared to a Meta 4 or T2 fit, but it still flies. But without isk you can't even fit T1. Or buy skill books. I see you're not capable of logic or reasoning. "Don't focus too much on grinding isk. Instead just take your time to sample different things and play styles" is not the same as "whatever you do, don't make any isk", especially not since career tutorials pay just nicely for a newbie.

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