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Cledus Snowman Snow
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
6
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Posted - 2015.01.05 00:58:47 -
[1] - Quote
http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/lighting-the-invention-bulb/ "Meta Item removal: Meta Item consumption to affect success chance is messy. It only affects modules, not ships and has a formula that is full of exceptions. Those will not be reimbursed as they can be used independently from Invention.
Introduction of Teams to replace Meta Items: we are going to extend the role of Teams to Invention, just like it works right now for other industry activities."
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=389425&find=unread "Given this, we believe the right thing for EVE and itGÇÖs players is to remove the Teams feature from the game over the next few months"
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=395392&find=unread So with the removal of Meta Item consumption to affect success chance. And now the removal of of Teams to replace Meta Items. And the removal of meta altogether. How has T2 production and invention not been made harder?
And did T2 BPOs ever get the big Nerf that was promised? http://www.evemanufacturing.co.uk/invention-vs-t2-bpos/ |
Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries Solar Assault Fleet
1166
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Posted - 2015.01.05 01:33:08 -
[2] - Quote
T2 production is a complete mess, don't try it or run your own figures, it's a guaranteed loss.
CCP Greyscale: As to starbases, we agree it's pretty terrible, but we don't want to delay the entire release just for this one factor.
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Ms Forum Alt
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
63
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Posted - 2015.01.05 12:01:52 -
[3] - Quote
I haven't built anything since Crius. I still run my fingers over those spreadsheets occasionally, but the margins I see on most things make it not worth my time to bother. It seems "the minerals I mine are free" is the only way to make a good solid profit building things in Eve these days. If you want to run your operation as a business, you're better off doing it for love, not margin. |
Cledus Snowman Snow
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
6
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Posted - 2015.01.05 21:10:57 -
[4] - Quote
Can any one please break it down for a low skill lvl guy? It all looks very complicated on paper. But with the exploration indi loots being next to worthless, and the use of meta4 for invention nixed, and the removal of invention teams that were going to replace it. And lastly with the all metas 1-4 (better than T2 meta4s) being removed 10 at a time in each patch. T2 will be the only non faction or higher option.
The query I put forth is 'are T2 BPO owners are the only players in this game who are going win from all this?'
CCP is all about the 'trust us this seems like a major nurf , but we will revisit it/ adjust at a later date' that never happens.
I am just flabbergasted that they are taking fitting options that are as old as the game it's self, and T2 production is such a mess. Maybe that's the plan? We can't have the T2 makers profit off all this too much kind of thing? Any subject matter experts opinions are welcome. How can T2 production be improved? What would you all suggest? This should be that huge boost to player manufacturing that the game has needed for a long time. But to my limited understanding, if even high skilled indie guys can not make a profit, the only winners will be the Owners of T2 BPOs.
Thanks for your time. |
Mr Omniblivion
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
303
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Posted - 2015.01.05 22:39:33 -
[5] - Quote
T2 production of final products is generally not too profitable because most builders also build their own t2 components and/or have reaction towers and vertically integrate.
If you are inventing, buying t2 components, and building the t2 final item from those components, you are probably not making very much unless you're doing it at a POS.
The main function of t2 production now is a method to offload bulk reaction outputs. |
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
1599
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Posted - 2015.01.05 22:46:11 -
[6] - Quote
meanwhile, i'm making billions per week with T1 stuff
Build your empire !
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Paynus Maiassus
Capital Munitions
213
|
Posted - 2015.01.06 01:17:10 -
[7] - Quote
T2 is not a guaranteed loss. However, if you use a simple model of buying parts at Jita, building stuff, and selling in Jita, there margins won't be any better than T1, and worse in a lot of cases, especially ships. T2 BPOs still exist and got nerfed a bit as invention got a bit of a buff, but they still dominate products where they are available and are responsible for low margins in a number of cases.
Since the margins are equal to or worse than T1 and take more work, why build it? Getting cheap sources of goo and making the construction components and the T1 modules can make the margins considerably good, but only in some cases. So you do a ton more work for a tiny bit of an increase. T2 is still worth making in some cases but the value in it is not margins in most cases but sales volume. There really is no reason to sell it in Jita because the margins will be low. Sales volume in Jita will be high for anything you make. So make T1 for Jita. However, since a lot of T2 modules are used more than T1 you can make T2 to sell in local hubs and it will sell better than T1. Try making Ballistic Control System Is and selling them in Rens. You'll never sell any and those that sell will be dirt cheap. Not worth the time. But Ballistic Control System IIs will sell there, and your margins will be higher than selling at jita.
Yeah T2 is worth making but it needs to be integrated into a trading and market scene. Those that say it's not worth doing have built a camp in the forge and haul to Jita. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
685
|
Posted - 2015.01.06 08:12:37 -
[8] - Quote
Cledus Snowman Snow wrote:the only winners will be the Owners of T2 BPOs. No, we got the shaft too. |
Selaria Unbertable
POS Mortem Renegades Of Silence
58
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Posted - 2015.01.06 08:23:17 -
[9] - Quote
Gilbaron wrote:meanwhile, i'm making billions per week with T1 stuff
I'm making hundreds of millions per day with... well, something But yeah, the T2 market is quite a mess, especially drones and modules. Haven't found much worth building since Crius... |
Ms Forum Alt
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
63
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Posted - 2015.01.06 10:25:53 -
[10] - Quote
Some things used to be worth building if only because of the skill requirements, materials and length of time it took to copy the BPO to make the BPC to invent the T2. Covert Ops Cloak for example. But since Crius even that totally bankable profit, if you had the patience, no longer has a margin that makes it worthwhile.
As I say, industry in Eve is now about transforming some stuff you got for free into some other stuff and selling it. |
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Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
1601
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Posted - 2015.01.06 11:32:17 -
[11] - Quote
at least it's easily fixable
increase build/invention times across the board, so that people have a harder time flooding the market
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Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
685
|
Posted - 2015.01.06 11:50:44 -
[12] - Quote
Gilbaron wrote:at least it's easily fixable
build and invention times need to be raised across the board, so people have a harder time flooding the market without even trying to +1 |
Ioci
Bad Girl Posse Somethin Awfull Forums
546
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Posted - 2015.01.06 13:23:33 -
[13] - Quote
It takes less than 3 days to cap out advanced component BPO's they cost 5 mill each, 9 in total per nation.
If you buy 2 plate, one of the rest it's 50 Mill X 4 = 200 mill and you will be M.E. capped in less than 2 weeks. We can pretend it's a big secret but we all know, deep down that everyone and their dog is now or soon will be T2 capable and will make their own on demand. The only required skill is Metallurgy 5 and every industrial had that for the now defunked crap metal processing skill. I have it multiple times, completed my BPO set in under a week.
Short version, T2 production for market purpose is **** up. I can't really say if it's bad or good for EVE that everyone can stockpile T2 everything now but from a build for profit aspect, it's extinction. Given enough time it won't even be about price, the asset volumes of stuff are going to murder demand. You won't be able to give it away.
R.I.P. Vile Rat
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EMT Holding
EMT Holding Corporation
9
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Posted - 2015.01.06 14:58:23 -
[14] - Quote
Since the removal of teams, the possible margins have dropped considerably if you want to be in Caldari space with 10+ builders. Moving further afield should allow for margins of 10-15% on T2 ships assuming you're building the components.
The removal of teams was a huge nerf to the possible profits on T2 ships. I can't comment on the effect it may have on modules but those have always been thin on margin from my research.
Eve Manufacture Tool - making industry easy
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Selaria Unbertable
POS Mortem Renegades Of Silence
58
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Posted - 2015.01.06 15:36:51 -
[15] - Quote
EMT Holding wrote:Since the removal of teams, the possible margins have dropped considerably if you want to be in Caldari space with 10+ builders. Moving further afield should allow for margins of 10-15% on T2 ships assuming you're building the components.
The removal of teams was a huge nerf to the possible profits on T2 ships. I can't comment on the effect it may have on modules but those have always been thin on margin from my research.
Thin, yes. But some were still profitable. The problem is the huge decrease in production time of modules and ammo, resulting in a much larger supply, while the demand has not increased significantly. Drones, rigs and ships were not affected by this, their production time has not changed that drastically. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
686
|
Posted - 2015.01.06 16:28:46 -
[16] - Quote
We need an industry themed expansion to fix all the problems caused by the industry themed expansion. |
Selaria Unbertable
POS Mortem Renegades Of Silence
58
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Posted - 2015.01.07 09:05:46 -
[17] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:We need an industry themed expansion to fix all the problems caused by the industry themed expansion.
Yes, it looks that way As long as we don't end up in a doom loop, all is well. I mean, CCP did a good job with the UI, you have to give them credits for that. But there was no need to change the production times the way they did. Hopefully they will take another look at that soon. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
689
|
Posted - 2015.01.07 11:22:49 -
[18] - Quote
Selaria Unbertable wrote:I mean, CCP did a good job with the UI, you have to give them credits for that. I'm not that keen on it myself. To me they just replaced one bad UI with a different bad UI.
But 10+ years of playing EVE has trained me to see past such things. It's the underlying functionality that matters most to me.
Unfortunately they also gutted POSes, botched teams and broke the production output on low "rank" blueprints... so the functionality took a massive kick to the balls too. |
Sam Spock
The Scope Gallente Federation
38
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Posted - 2015.01.07 18:01:36 -
[19] - Quote
I had an idea that I posted in the features and ideas section about limiting the number of jobs you could have at a station based on the system cost index. Basically bringing back the "slots" idea but on a personal rather than general level.
The idea is that T2 invention in particular has become so easy at an npc station that there is little need to do it anywhere else and it creates a huge flood of T2 stuff. If you were limited by the activity in the system by more than just cost, which was really not a huge factor on modules anyway, then it might introduce a slowdown effect so the market would have time to absorb the production.
You would not be lock out from doing things. You would always be able to have at least one job in a system (maybe two) even in Jita.
POS's, outposts and other sov owned stations would not be limited. Only npc ones. This would push people back to using POS's for industry.
The old slots system acted as a brake on the industry system due to it being very hard to find any invention slots in high sec. The other was invention times. I don't have any experience on that since I did not do any invention pre-crius. I love that you are not locked out from invention by this anymore but the free-for-all has really messed things up.
Giving you Inconsistent grammar, speilling and Punct-uation since 1974!
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Selaria Unbertable
POS Mortem Renegades Of Silence
58
|
Posted - 2015.01.08 08:52:31 -
[20] - Quote
Sam Spock wrote:I had an idea that I posted in the features and ideas section about limiting the number of jobs you could have at a station based on the system cost index. Basically bringing back the "slots" idea but on a personal rather than general level.
The idea is that T2 invention in particular has become so easy at an npc station that there is little need to do it anywhere else and it creates a huge flood of T2 stuff. If you were limited by the activity in the system by more than just cost, which was really not a huge factor on modules anyway, then it might introduce a slowdown effect so the market would have time to absorb the production.
You would not be lock out from doing things. You would always be able to have at least one job in a system (maybe two) even in Jita.
POS's, outposts and other sov owned stations would not be limited. Only npc ones. This would push people back to using POS's for industry.
The old slots system acted as a brake on the industry system due to it being very hard to find any invention slots in high sec. The other was invention times. I don't have any experience on that since I did not do any invention pre-crius. I love that you are not locked out from invention by this anymore but the free-for-all has really messed things up.
Bad idea, since your the skills determining your total jobs would be useless if you choose the wrong system. And traveling around with BPCs and datacores, despite their volume reduction, is a pita, you have to get back to fetch the invented bpcs and bring them to your production facility... And if you can't use up all your slots there, you have to move again, this time the bpcs and the materials... I doubt many people would do that, not the large scale industrialist, maybe not even the small scale ones. I try keep hauling at a minimum, cause it's the most annoying step along the way. I'm using a POS, just to be clear, still I think this is not the way to fix this mess. Just increase the production and invention times back to the level they were and the market won't be as flooded as it currently is.
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Cledus Snowman Snow
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
6
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Posted - 2015.01.08 10:43:53 -
[21] - Quote
Ok I think I am getting an idea now of some of the real issues here. Thanks all of you. Now with all this going on how will it affect or be effected by the removal of all meta4s most notably the ones better than the T2 of the same class? These T2 mods are not getting buffed and will have no competition for a better dropped non player made mod? New opportunities for more profits or more of the same old problems? Will there be market glut if player made is the only option? |
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
1605
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Posted - 2015.01.08 12:58:06 -
[22] - Quote
meta rebalancing will do very little for t2 production. the issues are elsewhere
meta production can change things quite a bit, but that really depends on how it's gonna work.
Build your empire !
Rent Space in Feythabolis and Omist
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Lady Ayeipsia
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
838
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Posted - 2015.01.08 18:59:33 -
[23] - Quote
Actually, there is an existing example of the meta 4 change already in game. A few years back, the meta 4 armored plates far exceeded the performance of the t2 plates. It was to the point that no one bothered even to make t2 plates. Around the expansion that gave us the armor layering skill, ccp rebalance the plates making t2 plates viable. This is not to say everyone now equip the t2 plates, it's a matter of what you can fit.
Still, initially t2 plate producers made a huge profit as supply had not stabilised with demand. Now prices have stabilized and it is not as profitable. (Very small margin)
Look at the drone damage amp. At first t2 were very profitable, now not so much. So be prepared to be an early adopter and you can make a good profit. If you wait, you will become one of the masses making less.
As for the whole meta change, read the blog please. The variants being eliminated did not cover much. You go from having 3 useful versions plus a few crap ones to 3 useful ones, one that is easier to fit but low value, a storyline version and faction versions. It will have little impact. If new go t1. If a little more space rich or have fitting issues, go meta. If you have skills and no fitting issues, go t2. Use the others in select cases. Really, no change now, just less fluff stuff.
Also, you are forgetting that when metas where removed, the skills involved in invention changed too. Training all to 5 can balance out the loss of meta boosts. It sucks for training, but it is balanced.
As for those complaining, the big cost is still datacores. Help reduce your datacore cost by getting research agents or join faction warfare and buy datacores with lp. Every bit helps. |
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
1606
|
Posted - 2015.01.08 20:06:38 -
[24] - Quote
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:
As for those complaining, the big cost is still datacores. Help reduce your datacore cost by getting research agents or join faction warfare and buy datacores with lp. Every bit helps.
the minerals i mine are free !
Build your empire !
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Ms Forum Alt
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
63
|
Posted - 2015.01.09 00:26:42 -
[25] - Quote
Lady Ayeipsia wrote: Look at the drone damage amp. At first t2 were very profitable, now not so much. So be prepared to be an early adopter and you can make a good profit. If you wait, you will become one of the masses making less.
Yes, I used to invent and build them 1000 at a time (not constantly as the price fluctuated). It wasn't just the change that crashed the price though, there was also a big war going on which is always good for business. |
Lady Ayeipsia
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
838
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Posted - 2015.01.09 17:31:56 -
[26] - Quote
Gilbaron wrote:Lady Ayeipsia wrote:
As for those complaining, the big cost is still datacores. Help reduce your datacore cost by getting research agents or join faction warfare and buy datacores with lp. Every bit helps.
the minerals i mine are free !
True, you could cherry pick the datacores gained from research agents for max sell profit, then put up buy orders for the cores you do want. In addition, there may be better l.p. items that could sell for a high profit, letting you buy datacores with that profit.
Whatever path you take, the point is to Chase further up your production line to see where you can reduce costs. And yes, it all has to be balanced with how you plan to spend your play time and avoiding the minerals I mine are free issue. |
Phil Hinken
Concordiat Spaceship Samurai
1
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Posted - 2015.01.09 19:01:50 -
[27] - Quote
Gilbaron wrote:at least it's easily fixable
build and invention times need to be raised across the board, so people have a harder time flooding the market without even trying to
If that were to be done then all it would achieve would be a raise in prices of items in general. The raise in price will cause the market to balance it out by a raise in demand. Within a month or two, price will go back to the way it is and market flooding would be back to the way it was.
"With the dowhop zig-zag jello pops, kids nowadays bee zop Rudy ha ha ha ziggety zaggity puddin." - Bill Cosby
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Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
1609
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Posted - 2015.01.09 21:57:06 -
[28] - Quote
how exactly is the market flooding gonna continue if production times have been increased ?
Build your empire !
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Cledus Snowman Snow
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
7
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Posted - 2015.01.10 03:09:53 -
[29] - Quote
"the minerals I mine are free issue." Can someone please explain this catch praise. I am not sure what it implies. TY |
Zifrian
Licentia Ex Vereor The Gorgon Spawn
1605
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Posted - 2015.01.10 03:58:54 -
[30] - Quote
Cledus Snowman Snow wrote:"the minerals I mine are free issue." Can someone please explain this catch praise. I am not sure what it implies. TY If you mine say veldspar for an hour and get 1000 trit, then that trit didn't cost you anything. Therefore, say you build a module with your 1000 trit then when you sell it, that is "free isk". Hence, the minerals I mine are free.
However, Trit has value on the market so really you should look at how much value did I mine for my time? If 1000 trit = 1000 isk and the module you make with 1000 trit = 500 isk on the market, then you would be better off selling the trit on the market instead of building the item and selling it. However, some people think that those minerals they mined are "free" so the 500 isk is the better profit, when in fact it isn't - they spent one hour to lose 500 isk in profit.
For an industry example, if I can build an Anshar and it gets me 500million profit but if it takes me 3 months to do but if I can build an Obelisk in a month and I get 300mill profit, then what is the better thing to build for maximizing profit per unit of time (IPH)?
Basically, maximize your time spent with respect to isk if you want to maximize your profit.
Ultimately though I don't think the MIMAF people ultimately matter. The market adjusts to supply and demand well. If people price items less than they take to build and if demand is high, they get bought quickly and resold for profit or don't affect the price dramatically when bought (since there will be more supply to meet demand). If demand is low they don't sell and no one who is paying attention to what they make will enter that market anyway.
GÇ£Any fool can criticize, condemn, and complain - and most fools do. GÇ¥ - Dale Carnegie
Maximze your Industry Potential! - Download EVE Isk per Hour!
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Cledus Snowman Snow
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
7
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Posted - 2015.01.10 04:46:07 -
[31] - Quote
Thanks Zifrian. I got it.The minerals aren't free, they cost time.
The real question is, for x amount of time, what gets you the most ISK while having fun.
For some, that's mining, for others, it's mission running. Everything costs time and that is a limited resource that no one can purchase. |
Jooma Moloko
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
1
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Posted - 2015.01.10 09:38:31 -
[32] - Quote
I used to make alot of ISK in T2 invention. Then my spreadsheets took an arrow to the knee.. |
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
1610
|
Posted - 2015.01.10 20:50:01 -
[33] - Quote
Cledus Snowman Snow wrote:Thanks Zifrian. I got it.The minerals aren't free, they cost time.
The real question is, for x amount of time, what gets you the most ISK while having fun.
For some, that's mining, for others, it's mission running. Everything costs time and that is a limited resource that no one can purchase.
even if you really enjoy mining and manufacturing, that doesn't mean you should sell finished goods at a price that is lower than the mineral value
find an item that is actually profitable to build and build it.
Build your empire !
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Paynus Maiassus
Capital Munitions
216
|
Posted - 2015.01.11 11:00:20 -
[34] - Quote
Selaria Unbertable wrote:EMT Holding wrote:Since the removal of teams, the possible margins have dropped considerably if you want to be in Caldari space with 10+ builders. Moving further afield should allow for margins of 10-15% on T2 ships assuming you're building the components.
The removal of teams was a huge nerf to the possible profits on T2 ships. I can't comment on the effect it may have on modules but those have always been thin on margin from my research. Thin, yes. But some were still profitable. The problem is the huge decrease in production time of modules and ammo, resulting in a much larger supply, while the demand has not increased significantly. Drones, rigs and ships were not affected by this, their production time has not changed that drastically.
I just started my first ammo invention jobs since Crius. 30 days for a 90-run torpedo job. The build times might be fast but that stuff sure takes a long time to invent. |
Alex Rosen
Ammunition Deliveries
2
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Posted - 2015.01.12 11:40:28 -
[35] - Quote
Besides the new UI, Crius was IMO a completely mistake that has completely f***** all indutry and a lot of the market. I hope we won't have to wait another 10 years to see a new industry overhaul |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
690
|
Posted - 2015.01.12 16:16:22 -
[36] - Quote
Alex Rosen wrote:Besides the new UI, Crius was IMO a completely mistake that has completely f***** all indutry and a lot of the market. I hope we won't have to wait another 10 years to see a new industry overhaul If it's anything like Crius, I'd happily wait another 10 years.
But I would much rather have an industry expansion that actually expands industry rather than removing half of it and breaking the rest.
I suppose it's fortunate that EVE doesn't have any competitors in its marketplace, or the act of sabotaging one of EVE's unique selling points could be seen as a terrible business move. Fortunately nobody else is making space MMOs and we can all sleep easy. |
Mino Adria
Convenient Alternative Storage
1
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Posted - 2015.01.13 08:36:55 -
[37] - Quote
Cledus Snowman Snow wrote:Thanks Zifrian. I got it.The minerals aren't free, they cost time.
The real question is, for x amount of time, what gets you the most ISK while having fun.
For some, that's mining, for others, it's mission running. Everything costs time and that is a limited resource that no one can purchase.
As Gilbaron said, the minerals you mine not only have a time cost. They also have an actual ISK value.
As in Zifrians example. If you mine for an hour and gotten 1000 minerals worth 1000 ISK if you sell it on the market, your profit is 1000ISK/h.
If you then decide to build something with that 1000 minerals that only sells for 500 ISK you have not only lost 500 ISK, you also reduced your profit per hour to 500 ISK/h.
Bottom line, only build stuff that is profitable to build. No matter if you mine or buy the minerals. Because if you build unprofitable items you would be better off to just sell the minerals directly onto the market.
Always use the market price (max buy/min sell) as the value of your minerals. View manufacturing as a way to turn the hour of mining into a bigger profit by spending an extra 5min setting up a profitable manufacturing job. |
Mino Adria
Convenient Alternative Storage
1
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Posted - 2015.01.13 08:43:31 -
[38] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Alex Rosen wrote:Besides the new UI, Crius was IMO a completely mistake that has completely f***** all indutry and a lot of the market. I hope we won't have to wait another 10 years to see a new industry overhaul If it's anything like Crius, I'd happily wait another 10 years. But I would much rather have an industry expansion that actually expands industry rather than removing half of it and breaking the rest. I suppose it's fortunate that EVE doesn't have any competitors in its marketplace, or the act of sabotaging one of EVE's unique selling points could be seen as a terrible business move. Fortunately nobody else is making space MMOs and we can all sleep easy.
For someone new to the industry side of the game, could you elaborate on what was broken in the Crius expansion?
The old UI seemed to be a complicated clickwall. Was there any functionality loss in the UI? Else it seems like an improvement?
And when it comes to other changes, was it a dumping down of the system, or did they break the balance of it?
And finally, shouldnGÇÖt the market eventually adjust to the new balance?
IGÇÖm just being a curios newb |
Shayla Sh'inlux
Coreli Corporation The Kadeshi
42
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Posted - 2015.01.13 10:49:30 -
[39] - Quote
A couple of things I can think up:
1) Industry slots were a limited resource. While factories have always been abundant, lab slots have been a rare commodity ever since Eve's inception. Back in the day (2004) labs were like offices that you'd rent and use. That got changed to the reasonably well working queuing system ages ago to the no-queue-but-extra-tax system we have now. It basically means that the playing field is leveled for everyone and that gaining an edge by flying your 1bil+ Capital BPO's to lowsec for lower or no queue times has disappeared. The new system also punishes you for producing a lot of stuff in one place. Which is obnoxious.
2) Inventing was very different. Today, you can just plug in a single-run drone BPC and get a 10-run copy out of an invention job. You can also queue up, say, 100 invention runs. Before Crius, you needed max-run BPCs to get 10-run copies. That meant more time your BPO's spent in labslots copying and less free queue time for inventions. Also, for ships it was even more complicated as the required BPC depended on which decryptor you used. You also couldn't queue jobs: 1 BPC, no matter how many runs, resulted in 1 t2-BPC with an amount of runs depending on how many runs the BPC had and which decryptor you used. Basically, you can now get a ton more t2-runs than before in the same amount of time.
3) As a result of #1 and #2, lab time and research slots were the bottleneck in t2 production. As the skill requirements for t2 invention were quite high, requiring multiple lvl 4's and 5's in high-ranked skills training a research-alt was a hefty skillpoint and thus monotary investment.
4) The skill requirements for t2 production have been signifcantly lowered. Where the removal of Production Efficiency destroyed the t1 market (which was already a niche industry), the reworking of the t2 related skills did that for the t2 market. Skills that were required to build stuff, merely got changed so that they make you build faster (which leads to more flooding). Before Crius, for example, you needed Advanced Frigate Construction lvl 5 to build an AF. Not only did they totally change the requirements to build, they also significantly lowered the impact of good skills on invention jobs. Before Crius, training the rank 5 Science Skills to lvl 5 gave you a not-insignificant edge when inventin, especially when you were using 7 million costing decryptors. Nowadays, the difference is so small that an 8 hour traintime lvl III can basically get the same profit a the lvl V.
5) Build times got significantly lowered, especially for modules and ammo. I'm not sure what the thought behind this was, as one character (yes one character not person) can reasonably supply the ENTIRE DAILY DEMAND in Jita on his own now. For example, I can, on one alt with 9 million skillpoints, invent and build enough Heavy Missile Launchers II to satisfy the Jita market. Alone. It's no surprise HML's sell at a loss.
6) System tax is a major factor in the production cost. System tax cannot be avoided, not be smarted around nor be reduced by skills. System tax punishes you for having a ton of production in one place and punishes you for having a streamlined and well organized factory. The only way to avoid said tax is by relocating your entire operation every ~10 days and for large producers that's just not going to happen. For example, I run my own little production line with 2 alts and moving their operation would mean moving about 12 freighters of goods. Now imagine what big production corps would have to move. System tax is a stupid idea and needs to be reworked asap.
That's just a few reasons. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
690
|
Posted - 2015.01.13 10:51:05 -
[40] - Quote
Mino Adria wrote:For someone new to the industry side of the game, could you elaborate on what was broken in the Crius expansion? Sure.
There is a limit to how many players can be gainfully employed by the S&I system. Once all demand is satisfied any additional production is going to contribute to flooding the market, driving down prices, driving down margins, driving down profits and devaluing S&I as worthwhile and engaging game content.
With Crius, all BPOs were mapped to "ranks" that determine the duration of any S&I job carried out with that BPO. The duration of the S&I job in turn determines the production output and therefore the number of players that can be gainfully employed producing from that BPO.
Unfortunately, the lowest ranks were assigned too short a duration. This means that a single player can easily supply the entire demand of a low rank product without even trying. So there is now less industrial gameplay available to players at the low end.
Obviously this impact has been aggravated by the increased take up of S&I activity as a result of Crius. There were immediately a lot more players, many highly uninformed, all chasing the same tiny opportunities.
Probably even worse than the "ranks", is what CCP did to POSes. They basically gutted them, removing almost all of their value for many applications and then shipped Crius with them in an insultingly bad state.
Furthermore, the old system of limited S&I slots and limited POS anchoring sites forced industrialists to spread out and build infrastructure all over EVE. Removing slots, gutting POSes and then adding a "soft" incentive to spread out basically achieved the opposite of it's intention. We now have less reason to spread out and more reason to concentrate.
Bad Bobby wrote:The old UI seemed to be a complicated clickwall. Was there any functionality loss in the UI? Else it seems like an improvement? Your experience with the new UI will depend on how you engage in S&I, the scale of your operations and at least some degree of personal taste. For me there are certainly some improvements there, but we had to pay a fairly high price to get them. At best I can say the new UI is less awful than the old one, but it's still awful.
I don't think it's a good idea to hold your breath while you wait for CCP to learn what good UI actually is. We've been watching them progress slowly from god awful to awful over the period of 11 years... and there have been some big retrograde steps taken over that time.
Functionality wise, we've lost most of the S&I POS functionality and the entirety of the alliance S&I functionality. It's also got a lot slower and more buggy when dealing with large numbers of blueprints.
Bad Bobby wrote:was it a dumping down of the system When you take everything in to account, the system is less complex in some places and more complex in others. I'm not sure if you can really say it was "dumbed down" overall.
Bad Bobby wrote:And finally, shouldnGÇÖt the market eventually adjust to the new balance? The market will always adjust to the new balance. The question is whether the game is better or worse because of it.
I'm not going to go into the mess that was teams, BPO conversion and the conspicuous lack of new products to build. This post is already too long! |
|
Paynus Maiassus
Capital Munitions
218
|
Posted - 2015.01.13 11:19:11 -
[41] - Quote
Shayla Sh'inlux wrote:A couple of things I can think up:
1) Industry slots were a limited resource. While factories have always been abundant, lab slots have been a rare commodity ever since Eve's inception. Back in the day (2004) labs were like offices that you'd rent and use. That got changed to the reasonably well working queuing system ages ago to the no-queue-but-extra-tax system we have now. It basically means that the playing field is leveled for everyone and that gaining an edge by flying your 1bil+ Capital BPO's to lowsec for lower or no queue times has disappeared. The new system also punishes you for producing a lot of stuff in one place. Which is obnoxious.
2) Inventing was very different. Today, you can just plug in a single-run drone BPC and get a 10-run copy out of an invention job. You can also queue up, say, 100 invention runs. Before Crius, you needed max-run BPCs to get 10-run copies. That meant more time your BPO's spent in labslots copying and less free queue time for inventions. Also, for ships it was even more complicated as the required BPC depended on which decryptor you used. You also couldn't queue jobs: 1 BPC, no matter how many runs, resulted in 1 t2-BPC with an amount of runs depending on how many runs the BPC had and which decryptor you used. Basically, you can now get a ton more t2-runs than before in the same amount of time.
3) As a result of #1 and #2, lab time and research slots were the bottleneck in t2 production. As the skill requirements for t2 invention were quite high, requiring multiple lvl 4's and 5's in high-ranked skills training a research-alt was a hefty skillpoint and thus monotary investment.
4) The skill requirements for t2 production have been signifcantly lowered. Where the removal of Production Efficiency destroyed the t1 market (which was already a niche industry), the reworking of the t2 related skills did that for the t2 market. Skills that were required to build stuff, merely got changed so that they make you build faster (which leads to more flooding). Before Crius, for example, you needed Advanced Frigate Construction lvl 5 to build an AF. Not only did they totally change the requirements to build, they also significantly lowered the impact of good skills on invention jobs. Before Crius, training the rank 5 Science Skills to lvl 5 gave you a not-insignificant edge when inventin, especially when you were using 7 million costing decryptors. Nowadays, the difference is so small that an 8 hour traintime lvl III can basically get the same profit a the lvl V.
5) Build times got significantly lowered, especially for modules and ammo. I'm not sure what the thought behind this was, as one character (yes one character not person) can reasonably supply the ENTIRE DAILY DEMAND in Jita on his own now. For example, I can, on one alt with 9 million skillpoints, invent and build enough Heavy Missile Launchers II to satisfy the Jita market. Alone. It's no surprise HML's sell at a loss.
6) System tax is a major factor in the production cost. System tax cannot be avoided, not be smarted around nor be reduced by skills. System tax punishes you for having a ton of production in one place and punishes you for having a streamlined and well organized factory. The only way to avoid said tax is by relocating your entire operation every ~10 days and for large producers that's just not going to happen. For example, I run my own little production line with 2 alts and moving their operation would mean moving about 12 freighters of goods. Now imagine what big production corps would have to move. System tax is a stupid idea and needs to be reworked asap.
That's just a few reasons.
There are a lot of inaccuracies in this post. T1 was not a niche industry, as it is not a niche industry now. T1 industry has not been destroyed.
I never had frig, cruiser, or battleship construction at 5 but made marauders, cruisers, and I think frigs. Maybe some of the frigs required frig construction (now advanced small ship construction) 5, but I was never unable to build anything for the longest time that I wanted to build.
One character supply the entire daily demand of an item in Jita? Totally false.
The difference in having all your invention skills at 1 vs. having all of them at 5 is about 12%. Basically about like it was.
An unused system will have about a .1 system index for the cost. Using the system will quickly get it up to about a 2. It's really hard to get a system beyond that and only major industrial hubs get very high. Even there, the job cost is not a margin killer.
I could go on and on, but this poster has no clue. Don't listen to a word he says. |
Mino Adria
Convenient Alternative Storage
1
|
Posted - 2015.01.13 12:55:33 -
[42] - Quote
Paynus, Bad Bobby and Shayla: Thanks for your insights!
It's nice to hear the perspective from older players on the changes and relate them to my current experience.
As mentioned earlier I previously played EvE in small doses, but only doing PvP or mission running. I looked into industry now when I resubbed to set up a low effort income and got stuck because it was fun.
So far it has taken a significant amount of time learning how everything works in-game, learning out of game tools to help with calculations and most of all learn to actually check the profitability in-game (spotting scams, inflated prices etc.). Most of the time have gone to learn tools enough to trust them give me BPOs to investigate further.
So the time investment, at least for me, to get a hang of everything was rather significant. But now when IGÇÖve got the basic down I can rather easily go through the motions. It takes me about 10-15 minutes to log in, setup new jobs (manufacturing/research), set up/update sell orders and be done. I operate in a trade hub, working from sell order to sell order, nu hauling.
IGÇÖve had no problem turning a profit, but it is low ISK/h. IGÇÖve added an extra zero to my starting capital while still being able to invest in implants (for indy-main and indy-alt), BPOs, Skillbooks etc I would guess IGÇÖm averaging about 75k-100k in ISK/h per slot. Investing in more expensive BPOs I hope to be able to push this to a 200 000 ISK/h average.
The things IGÇÖm noticing is that the profitability of items changes rather quick. Probably because more players them me are using the same tools. So my strategy is to build a simple BPO portfolio that has a rather low ROI time so I can be agile in the market, manufacturing in24h batches what seems to be the most profitable right now.
Unloading my stock is also starting to be a problem, mainly due to .01 ISKing. The volume is there but the GÇ£log in once a dayGÇ¥ approach doesnGÇÖt work for selling my stock. If I babysit for an hour or three stuff move quickly.
So my view on your comments above is that T1 really has a low barrier of entry, low profit potential and a volatile market. I donGÇÖt know if this is the best for the game but it seems rather appropriate compared to other carrers in EvE if industry is supposed to be viable for new players. I would like the ability to specialize a bit more in T1 with skills, but then you would lose the low barrier of entry for new players.
The changes to Invention seems significant, IGÇÖm currently looking into T2 production and IGÇÖm even unsure I should factor invention/copy time into my ISK/H calculations (the cost, of course, are included) as it doesnGÇÖt seem to be a bottle neck at all.
I can see how flooding would be a problem now. Low skill requirements and short build times makes demand easy to satisfy. I guess longer build times would create the need for the industrial collective to differentiate more in what they produce. What was most surprising to me when I started to do indy was how small some of the market segments actually is compared with the ability to produce. When I played for PvP I imagined the silent masses of indy-players working an mass to satisfy the war machine of EvE.
When it comes to the UI, I like it. We will see if I still do when I start doing it on 3+ characters |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
690
|
Posted - 2015.01.13 12:57:17 -
[43] - Quote
Paynus Maiassus wrote:I could go on and on, but this poster has no clue. Don't listen to a word he says. I think you're going to see a lot of different perspectives from various industrialists based on how these changes impacted their own gameplay.
Personally, I'm more concerned with the damage it did to the game as a whole rather than my specific situation, particularly since my specific situation isn't even close to representative of the wider playerbase. Not everyone was running 45 POSes, 20 accounts and a private bank in order to fund it all when Crius raised it's ugly head.
I could also go on an on about the various other issues that Crius brought up, as there is a lot of material there.
Paynus Maiassus wrote:One character supply the entire daily demand of an item in Jita? Totally false. Sorry old chum, I can say from personal experience that it's a trivial task.
Not all products mind you, only the ones affected by this particular issue... sadly that's a lot of products. |
Mino Adria
Convenient Alternative Storage
1
|
Posted - 2015.01.13 13:08:42 -
[44] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Personally, I'm more concerned with the damage it did to the game as a whole rather than my specific situation, particularly since my specific situation isn't even close to representative of the wider playerbase. Not everyone was running 45 POSes, 20 accounts and a private bank in order to fund it all when Crius raised it's ugly head.
I could also go on an on about the various other issues that Crius brought up, as there is a lot of material there.
Haha 20 accounts... I guess I have a while to go still then! My profit goal right now is 2 Billion/month on one character (or at least one account), and hopefully on a once-a-day schedule.
I guess damage to the game should be counted in player retention. If the changes drives away long standing subscriptions that is a bad thing. If it just stirs up and changes the landscape that might be ok. Or even bring in more new long-term subscriptions that surpasses losses then that would be a win for the changes. |
Zip Girl
19
|
Posted - 2015.01.13 13:49:47 -
[45] - Quote
Paynus Maiassus wrote:[quote=Shayla Sh'inlux]A couple of things I can think up:
There are a lot of inaccuracies in this post. T1 was not a niche industry, as it is not a niche industry now. T1 industry has not been destroyed.
I never had frig, cruiser, or battleship construction at 5 but made marauders, cruisers, and I think frigs. Maybe some of the frigs required frig construction (now advanced small ship construction) 5, but I was never unable to build anything for the longest time that I wanted to build.
One character supply the entire daily demand of an item in Jita? Totally false.
The difference in having all your invention skills at 1 vs. having all of them at 5 is about 12%. Basically about like it was.
An unused system will have about a .1 system index for the cost. Using the system will quickly get it up to about a 2. It's really hard to get a system beyond that and only major industrial hubs get very high. Even there, the job cost is not a margin killer.
I could go on and on, but this poster has no clue. Don't listen to a word he says.
It use to be that you needed Adv. Medium Ship Construction 5 to build Command Ships; and Heavy Interdictors. Now you just need the skill at level 1 to build the same ships.
The same with the Adv. Small Ship Construction; you needed level 5 to build AF's and now you just need the skill at level 1.
You needed Adv. Large Ship Construction at 4 to build Marauders and Black Ops and now you just need the skill at level 1.
It is also not hard at all to get a system index over 2. Starting with a .1 system index; all it takes 45 build slots to get the system index over 3.0 in less then a month. Mattering on what you are building the system cost index can make or break the profit margin on what you are building. Using Orca's as an example and also building the components; the install costs are around 59 million in a system with an index of 4.16; the install costs drop down to just over 39 million in a system with a cost index of 2.77. Find a system with an index in the 1.3 range and the install costs drop to just over 19 million.
Zip
|
Mino Adria
Convenient Alternative Storage
1
|
Posted - 2015.01.13 14:20:23 -
[46] - Quote
Zip Girl wrote:It use to be that you needed Adv. Medium Ship Construction 5 to build Command Ships; and Heavy Interdictors. Now you just need the skill at level 1 to build the same ships.
The same with the Adv. Small Ship Construction; you needed level 5 to build AF's and now you just need the skill at level 1.
You needed Adv. Large Ship Construction at 4 to build Marauders and Black Ops and now you just need the skill at level 1.
This change seems strange to me. From a game balance perspective isnGÇÖt it better to create an environment where low skill T1 production (ammo, basic modules) is reasonable profitable and have that as an entry step for new players. Then have a high skill requirement for more advanced T1 production (larger ships and structures maybe) with a higher ISK/h then the low skill production.
This way the player base would be differentiated and there would be options for both new and advanced producers.
I guess some of the problem is that the market price and therefor profitability is hard to control on a free market, so it might be hard to artificially create tiers/progress for and industrialist.
|
Shayla Sh'inlux
Coreli Corporation The Kadeshi
43
|
Posted - 2015.01.13 16:41:19 -
[47] - Quote
Quote: There are a lot of inaccuracies in this post. T1 was not a niche industry, as it is not a niche industry now. T1 industry has not been destroyed.
It actually has been and has been for a long, long while. Likely, the thing you are calling "T1 Industry" is actually called trading. And trading is very profitable. It's not industry, however.
I understand that very few people can actually tell the difference and think they are building at profit while they are actually trading at less profit than they would have had when they skipped the build step. It appears you are one of them.
Quote: I never had frig, cruiser, or battleship construction at 5 but made marauders, cruisers, and I think frigs. Maybe some of the frigs required frig construction (now advanced small ship construction) 5, but I was never unable to build anything for the longest time that I wanted to build.
I specifically mentioned requiring Advanced Frig Construction lvl V for Assault Frigs. Which was the case and the reason I have it at V on two characters. I think dictors also required it, but I never built those.
You also needed Advanced Cruisers lvl V for hictors and various lvl 4's for other ships.
Quote: One character supply the entire daily demand of an item in Jita? Totally false.
For all items= No. I never said that. I also concur HML II was a bad example as you can only meet about 1/3 of the demand on your own for that item.
But let-¦s do some math. Let's take a small module. A railgun, a Pulse laser, just any semi-popular frigate gun. Or any lowslot item that fits on a small ship. In a PoS, with good skills, these modules take 19 minutes to build.
Let's round to 3 per hour. A character has 11 building slots. At least, mine have. That means I can, alone, produce almost 800 of them per day one one character. And another 800 on the second.
A 125mm railgun II trades about 500 units a day, some of which is traders buying and relisting. A 150mm railgun II trades about 1000 a day, some of which is traders buying and relisting.
There are dozens of modules that trade less than 1000 a day in Jita and dozens and dozens more that trade less than 1500 a day. And I'm just one guy with two accounts. Not some mega-multi industrial that have up to 10-20 characters building stuff.
Quote: The difference in having all your invention skills at 1 vs. having all of them at 5 is about 12%. Basically about like it was.
You need to compare 4's to 5's. Not 1's to 5's. The difference between 4 and 5 is signifcantly smaller than before. Also this is before decryptor multipliers.
Besides, since the input of invention jobs has been cheapened by a ton (especially for ships) the BPC makes up a lesser percentage of the end product and thus the result of training rank 5 skills to V is to maybe safe 150k on a t2 frigate.
Or do you calculate your BPC's as having a cost of 0? |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
690
|
Posted - 2015.01.13 17:27:24 -
[48] - Quote
Mino Adria wrote:I guess damage to the game should be counted in player retention. If the changes drives away long standing subscriptions that is a bad thing. I'm not sure simple player retention would be a good way to gauge Crius, particularly given that its impact is likely to be more long term.
However, for my own non-representative part, I took down all my POSes, unsubbed 12 accounts and moved my industrial activities that were previously based all over New Eden in all types of space back to NPC stations within one jump of Jita. This is not what CCP expected, given the blurb for Crius, but it was entirely predictable given their plans.
Mino Adria wrote:If it just stirs up and changes the landscape that might be ok. Absolutely. I very much hoped that they'd follow up Crius with all the fixes and iterations needed to make that the case. Sadly, they did very little and then CCP Seagull announced that they were done with industry changes. |
Paynus Maiassus
Capital Munitions
218
|
Posted - 2015.01.13 20:51:37 -
[49] - Quote
Mino Adria wrote:Paynus, Bad Bobby and Shayla: Thanks for your insights! It's nice to hear the perspective from older players on the changes and relate them to my current experience. As mentioned earlier I previously played EvE in small doses, but only doing PvP or mission running. I looked into industry now when I resubbed to set up a low effort income and got stuck because it was fun. So far it has taken a significant amount of time learning how everything works in-game, learning out of game tools to help with calculations and most of all learn to actually check the profitability in-game (spotting scams, inflated prices etc.). Most of the time have gone to learn tools enough to trust them give me BPOs to investigate further. So the time investment, at least for me, to get a hang of everything was rather significant. But now when IGÇÖve got the basic down I can rather easily go through the motions. It takes me about 10-15 minutes to log in, setup new jobs (manufacturing/research), set up/update sell orders and be done. I operate in a trade hub, working from sell order to sell order, nu hauling. IGÇÖve had no problem turning a profit, but it is low ISK/h. IGÇÖve added an extra zero to my starting capital while still being able to invest in implants (for indy-main and indy-alt), BPOs, Skillbooks etc I would guess IGÇÖm averaging about 75k-100k in ISK/h per slot. Investing in more expensive BPOs I hope to be able to push this to a 200 000 ISK/h average. The things IGÇÖm noticing is that the profitability of items changes rather quick. Probably because more players them me are using the same tools. So my strategy is to build a simple BPO portfolio that has a rather low ROI time so I can be agile in the market, manufacturing in24h batches what seems to be the most profitable right now. Unloading my stock is also starting to be a problem, mainly due to .01 ISKing. The volume is there but the GÇ£log in once a dayGÇ¥ approach doesnGÇÖt work for selling my stock. If I babysit for an hour or three stuff move quickly. So my view on your comments above is that T1 really has a low barrier of entry, low profit potential and a volatile market. I donGÇÖt know if this is the best for the game but it seems rather appropriate compared to other carrers in EvE if industry is supposed to be viable for new players. I would like the ability to specialize a bit more in T1 with skills, but then you would lose the low barrier of entry for new players. The changes to Invention seems significant, IGÇÖm currently looking into T2 production and IGÇÖm even unsure I should factor invention/copy time into my ISK/H calculations (the cost, of course, are included) as it doesnGÇÖt seem to be a bottle neck at all. I can see how flooding would be a problem now. Low skill requirements and short build times makes demand easy to satisfy. I guess longer build times would create the need for the industrial collective to differentiate more in what they produce. What was most surprising to me when I started to do indy was how small some of the market segments actually is compared with the ability to produce. When I played for PvP I imagined the silent masses of indy-players working an mass to satisfy the war machine of EvE. When it comes to the UI, I like it. We will see if I still do when I start doing it on 3+ characters
In my experience, saying "T1" has a low barrier of entry but low profit margins is a little too general. Titans are T1. Since the build skill requirements for T2 has been reduced to 1 (Jump Freighters still require 4 to make the advanced components - T1 items), the barrier to entry is not that high. T1 and T2 are very different manufacturing systems. However, thinking in terms of modules vs. ships. vs. rigs etc. is often more useful than distinguishing between T1 and T2. The primary significance of thinking about T1 vs. T2 has to do with the effect that T2 BPOs have on the market, and the effect of arrays on margins when you get to building in a POS.
Still, though, I think your problem of starting out with satisfactory margins but unsatisfactory overall ISK/hour or income, is not just a matter of T1 vs. T2. To get more income, you'll want to be making more expensive items that have high sales volumes. Those can be found among the T1 and T2 products.
Keep in mind, most of building is actually a matter of the market and trading and financing.
|
Sabriz Adoudel
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
4381
|
Posted - 2015.01.14 05:17:51 -
[50] - Quote
My thoughts:
- Crius, and particularly the later expansion that changed invention (was it Phoebe?) reduced the number of clicks needed to make T2 modules dramatically.
- Crius also dramatically reduced production time for many items. 12 1600mm T2 armor plates (from a Symmetry-decrypted BPC) took 48 hours to build in a station, now it's 13 hours.
- Items where the limiting factor pre-Crius was player click tolerance have crashed. Hard. Examples: T2 drones.
- Items where the limiting factor pre-Crius was production time have crashed, especially for those markets where T2 BPOs exist. It's now possible for just T2 BPOs to supply all of the game's T2 ammunition excluding drones because T2 ammo now takes less than 10% of the build time it used to take, meaning the throughput of a BPO is now more than 10 times what it used to be.
- Items where the limiting factor is available capital are still sometimes good options, but you have to be very careful not to get into an overly flooded market, and you need to ensure that you aren't merely responding to a spike in demand that has already passed.
- The real profit in T2 'production' is no longer the process of production, it's anticipating and preemptively responding to changes in demand for intermediate components. I built dozens of recon ships for the rebalance, but actually made more out of the small amount of time I spent pricegouging other recon ship producers, by seeking opportunities to buy up microprocessors (the main component of recons) in Jita and shipping them for resale elsewhere. Prior to that I made a small amount on the sharp spike in certain datacores - something that was forseeable, and that I should have made more ISK out of than I did.
Chaos. Opportunity. Destruction. Excitement... Vote #1 Sabriz Adoudel for CSM 10
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Sabriz Adoudel
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
4381
|
Posted - 2015.01.14 05:30:21 -
[51] - Quote
One more thing. Overproduction in EVE is a huge thing.
My alliance use a lot of Light Neutron Blaster II, probably more than any other entity in the game. We have a reputation for being extremely wasteful with them. But just my three characters with production skills could supply over 30000 units of LNB2 per month if I was willing to log on four to five times a day to manage production jobs.
I can, with just one character, warp the market of Sinq Laison for commonly used tech 2 ships such as the Oneiros just by building them aggressively. This is the region with the third largest trade hub in the game.
Chaos. Opportunity. Destruction. Excitement... Vote #1 Sabriz Adoudel for CSM 10
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Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
695
|
Posted - 2015.01.14 05:59:04 -
[52] - Quote
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:- Items where the limiting factor pre-Crius was production time have crashed, especially for those markets where T2 BPOs exist. It's now possible for just T2 BPOs to supply all of the game's T2 ammunition excluding drones because T2 ammo now takes less than 10% of the build time it used to take, meaning the throughput of a BPO is now more than 10 times what it used to be. Terrible isn't it?
How anyone thought that would be anything other than a monumentally stupid thing to do is beyond me. |
Paynus Maiassus
Capital Munitions
218
|
Posted - 2015.01.14 06:04:52 -
[53] - Quote
Shayla Sh'inlux wrote:Quote: There are a lot of inaccuracies in this post. T1 was not a niche industry, as it is not a niche industry now. T1 industry has not been destroyed.
It actually has been and has been for a long, long while. Likely, the thing you are calling "T1 Industry" is actually called trading. And trading is very profitable. It's not industry, however. I understand that very few people can actually tell the difference and think they are building at profit while they are actually trading at less profit than they would have had when they skipped the build step. It appears you are one of them. Quote: I never had frig, cruiser, or battleship construction at 5 but made marauders, cruisers, and I think frigs. Maybe some of the frigs required frig construction (now advanced small ship construction) 5, but I was never unable to build anything for the longest time that I wanted to build.
I specifically mentioned requiring Advanced Frig Construction lvl V for Assault Frigs. Which was the case and the reason I have it at V on two characters. I think dictors also required it, but I never built those. You also needed Advanced Cruisers lvl V for hictors and various lvl 4's for other ships. Quote: One character supply the entire daily demand of an item in Jita? Totally false.
For all items= No. I never said that. I also concur HML II was a bad example as you can only meet about 1/3 of the demand on your own for that item. But let-¦s do some math. Let's take a small module. A railgun, a Pulse laser, just any semi-popular frigate gun. Or any lowslot item that fits on a small ship. In a PoS, with good skills, these modules take 19 minutes to build. Let's round to 3 per hour. A character has 11 building slots. At least, mine have. That means I can, alone, produce almost 800 of them per day one one character. And another 800 on the second. A 125mm railgun II trades about 500 units a day, some of which is traders buying and relisting. A 150mm railgun II trades about 1000 a day, some of which is traders buying and relisting. There are dozens of modules that trade less than 1000 a day in Jita and dozens and dozens more that trade less than 1500 a day. And I'm just one guy with two accounts. Not some mega-multi industrial that have up to 10-20 characters building stuff. Quote: The difference in having all your invention skills at 1 vs. having all of them at 5 is about 12%. Basically about like it was.
You need to compare 4's to 5's. Not 1's to 5's. The difference between 4 and 5 is signifcantly smaller than before. Also this is before decryptor multipliers. Besides, since the input of invention jobs has been cheapened by a ton (especially for ships) the BPC makes up a lesser percentage of the end product and thus the result of training rank 5 skills to V is to maybe safe 150k on a t2 frigate. Or do you calculate your BPC's as having a cost of 0?
I originally wasn't going to dignify this with a reply, but since the OP doesn't really know what reasonable is yet, I'll continue.
This poster wants to argue with me about what 'niche' is, which I am not going to do. I'll just say that I was making 2-3 billion a month with meta 0 sub capital products, about 3 billion a month with T2, and another billion or two with caps. Since I'd have to sell zillions of T1 items to account for almost 50% of my revenue, I'd say that's not niche. I don't think this guy is considering T1 ship hulls.
Next, he wants to say I'm a trader and not a manufacturer. I beg to differ. My only buy orders were for materials. I only monitored the market realities of the 400 or so products I produced. Most big time traders are dealing in items that aren't manufactured, such as headspace and officer modules, expensive schoolbooks and BPOs, PLEX, implants, faction items, etc. A dude selling trillions of Adaptive Invulnerability Field Is that he built is not a trader but a manufacturer. That being said, in order to make money in manufacturing you do have to know the markets and when, where, and how to sell your stuff.
Then he wants to go on and on about the skills, using command ships (a niche item if there ever was one) as an example. Yeah assault frogs were common, but my point stands you could make all kinds of stuff with skills at 3 and 4. Not to mention you'll need those skills at 3-4 to invent, and T3 and jump freighters still require a lot of skills at 4 and 5. Basically this is just a rabbit hole to pull me down. My point stands that lowering the skill requirements has not ruined the market. So the difference between 4 and 5 in your invention formula before Crius was about a half a percent. If it's less now, who cares? If you trained science skills to 5 for invention before or after, you're stupid. The only reason to train them to 5 is for T3. While there may have been more uses for some of the skills to 5 before, the change has not changed the overall scene too much. You can still do a lot with low skills and high skills can let you do a bit more.
Then he finishes it off with an ad hominem about how I calculate my costs, which he knows nothing about.
Anyway, my point stands, don't listen to this poster OP. |
Paynus Maiassus
Capital Munitions
218
|
Posted - 2015.01.14 06:08:43 -
[54] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Sabriz Adoudel wrote:- Items where the limiting factor pre-Crius was production time have crashed, especially for those markets where T2 BPOs exist. It's now possible for just T2 BPOs to supply all of the game's T2 ammunition excluding drones because T2 ammo now takes less than 10% of the build time it used to take, meaning the throughput of a BPO is now more than 10 times what it used to be. Terrible isn't it? How anyone thought that would be anything other than a monumentally stupid thing to do is beyond me.
Well if they make good on the hints they were dropping about getting rid of T2 BPOs, things will be fine.
Let's hope they do that. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
695
|
Posted - 2015.01.14 06:27:51 -
[55] - Quote
Paynus Maiassus wrote:Bad Bobby wrote:Sabriz Adoudel wrote:- Items where the limiting factor pre-Crius was production time have crashed, especially for those markets where T2 BPOs exist. It's now possible for just T2 BPOs to supply all of the game's T2 ammunition excluding drones because T2 ammo now takes less than 10% of the build time it used to take, meaning the throughput of a BPO is now more than 10 times what it used to be. Terrible isn't it? How anyone thought that would be anything other than a monumentally stupid thing to do is beyond me. Well if they make good on the hints they were dropping about getting rid of T2 BPOs, things will be fine. Let's hope they do that. I'd rather they make good on the hints that they were dropping about improving industry as a whole.
But the answer to T2 BPOs is to fix them, not remove them. We don't have enough high-end economic content in the game as it is, so removing more of it is not the answer. Increasing the conflict between invention and T2 BPOs was also not the answer. Removing T2 BPOs will not un-break the system, it will just leave us with less content, less playstyles and an industry system that is still broken. |
Mino Adria
Convenient Alternative Storage
1
|
Posted - 2015.01.14 08:01:27 -
[56] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:[quote=Mino Adria]Absolutely. I very much hoped that they'd follow up Crius with all the fixes and iterations needed to make that the case. Sadly, they did very little and then CCP Seagull announced that they were done with industry changes.
Makes me wonder... The biggest "change" to industry we might expect now might be the changes to SOV warefare. A couple of great big wars just will not fix longterm problems or reverse the problems that are discussed here, but at least it should drive up margins, volume and demand
And who knows, player build stargates maybe sees the light of day!
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Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
1610
|
Posted - 2015.01.14 10:07:18 -
[57] - Quote
Ranks of some items (mostly modukes) need another balance pass, but that's a quick thing a single game designer can do.
Everything else that "needs" to be done requires further changes in structures, corps and sov.
The removal of the clickfest, the new interface and reducing unnecessary clutter are great changes. Especially everything that has to do with construction fees.
Build your empire !
Rent Space in Feythabolis and Omist
Contact me for details :)
|
Cledus Snowman Snow
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
8
|
Posted - 2015.01.14 11:27:17 -
[58] - Quote
Thank you all so much for your input and perspectives. I am trying to google all the stuff I am not sure I understand. Like this from the OP I am just going on Dev notes from the different patches in order.
1Removal of Meta Item consumption to affect success chance.
2Introduction of Teams to invention to replace Meta Items.
3Removal the Teams feature from the game.
This seems like a hole is left in the invention process.
And Bad Bobby please do go into " I'm not going to go into the mess that was teams, BPO conversion and the conspicuous lack of new products to build. This post is already too long!". Don't tease me lol.
I am at a new place here in EVE in that I do not even know enough to have an opinion on what one poster is right or wrong. I am finding value in all your interpretations of the state of things manufacturing. Thank you all for the great input I am learning a lot. |
Tam Arai
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
27
|
Posted - 2015.01.14 12:01:06 -
[59] - Quote
interesting thread
i have made some isk from a bit of t1 manufacturing but my alt is going to be skilled to build most things- good to read about some issues and the long training time gives me plenty time to carry on researching what i will spend time doing.
Am i correct in thinking there is no need to skill beyond lv1 for advanced large ship and advanced industrial other than to gain a 1% time saving?
|
EMT Holding
EMT Holding Corporation
9
|
Posted - 2015.01.14 12:56:07 -
[60] - Quote
Shayla Sh'inlux wrote:6) System tax is a major factor in the production cost. System tax cannot be avoided, not be smarted around nor be reduced by skills. System tax punishes you for having a ton of production in one place and punishes you for having a streamlined and well organized factory. The only way to avoid said tax is by relocating your entire operation every ~10 days and for large producers that's just not going to happen. For example, I run my own little production line with 2 alts and moving their operation would mean moving about 12 freighters of goods. Now imagine what big production corps would have to move. System tax is a stupid idea and needs to be reworked asap.
That's just a few reasons. So many times this. With the removal of teams, I either have to eat up some insane install costs, move my operation around every few weeks or just suck it up and have to push a lot more volume for the same profit. That doesn't make sense to me. Why am I being punished for running an efficient production line?
I've ceased industry for now and I don't know if I'll go back to it with the current state of everything.
Eve Manufacture Tool - making industry easy
|
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Shayla Sh'inlux
Coreli Corporation The Kadeshi
45
|
Posted - 2015.01.14 14:25:41 -
[61] - Quote
Quote:Next, he wants to say I'm a trader and not a manufacturer. I beg to differ. My only buy orders were for materials.
Thank you for proofing my point. You are a trader.
What you do is buy materials at below their sell price through the use of buy orders. You could then choose to sell said minerals at their actual value and make a good profit. Instead you choose to build something with it to add a rather insignificant amount of extra value to said materials, or in many cases even a reduce their value. That's ok, thousands of people do that and thousands of people don't get it which is why the market for t1 is in such a sad state in the first place.
Let me make it clearer for you, because I actually DO get it and I'd love others to understand too.
Let's assume we have an imaginary friend. Our imaginary friend LOVES to mine and he sells all his minerals to us. In fact, he is even so nice, he sells every mineral to us for 1 isk, regardless of what type it is AND he brings them to our facory station too. On a day, he sells both of us *exactly* enough minerals to build a Dominix at ME 10. Given that a Dominix at ME 10 requires 13,833,502 minerals to build, it costs us 13,833,502 isk. Lucky us!
You immediately pull out your max researched Dominix BPO, fork out 5,9 million industry tax to start a job, for a total cost of just over 19,7 million for a Dominix. You rush it to Jita and quickly sell it for 192 million isk for a hefty profit of 172,3 million isk (let's ignore market tax for now). Excellent job! Unfortunately for you, you just destroyed 3 million isk by building the Dominix.
See, I, actually getting it, put my Dominix BPO in a lab to make a copy. I put the copy on contracts for whatever they sell for nowadays (250k?) and I sell the minerals in Jita by placing a sell order. The value of the minerals is 189,25 million, making my net profit 175,5 million.
These numbers are live from Jita.
Building a Dominix, and about 75% of all the other t1 items costs more than the value of the minerals. It's irrelevant what you paid for the materials. Minerals you mine are not free. For the remaining 25% the effective isk/hr you gain (over selling) from building is not worth your clicks, character and blueprint time.
If you think otherwise, again, you're trading. Which is fine. And makes good isk. It's just not industry.
|
Holgrak Blacksmith
Prophets of Motav
235
|
Posted - 2015.01.14 21:58:56 -
[62] - Quote
Shayla Sh'inlux wrote:Quote:Next, he wants to say I'm a trader and not a manufacturer. I beg to differ. My only buy orders were for materials. Thank you for proofing my point. You are a trader. What you do is buy materials at below their sell price through the use of buy orders. You could then choose to sell said minerals at their actual value and make a good profit. Instead you choose to build something with it to add a rather insignificant amount of extra value to said materials, or in many cases even a reduce their value. That's ok, thousands of people do that and thousands of people don't get it which is why the market for t1 is in such a sad state in the first place. Let me make it clearer for you, because I actually DO get it and I'd love others to understand too. Let's assume we have an imaginary friend. Our imaginary friend LOVES to mine and he sells all his minerals to us. In fact, he is even so nice, he sells every mineral to us for 1 isk, regardless of what type it is AND he brings them to our facory station too. On a day, he sells both of us *exactly* enough minerals to build a Dominix at ME 10. Given that a Dominix at ME 10 requires 13,833,502 minerals to build, it costs us 13,833,502 isk. Lucky us! You immediately pull out your max researched Dominix BPO, fork out 5,9 million industry tax to start a job, for a total cost of just over 19,7 million for a Dominix. You rush it to Jita and quickly sell it for 192 million isk for a hefty profit of 172,3 million isk (let's ignore market tax for now). Excellent job! Unfortunately for you, you just destroyed 3 million isk by building the Dominix. See, I, actually getting it, put my Dominix BPO in a lab to make a copy. I put the copy on contracts for whatever they sell for nowadays (250k?) and I sell the minerals in Jita by placing a sell order. The value of the minerals is 189,25 million, making my net profit 175,5 million. These numbers are live from Jita. Building a Dominix, and about 75% of all the other t1 items costs more than the value of the minerals. It's irrelevant what you paid for the materials. Minerals you mine are not free. For the remaining 25% the effective isk/hr you gain (over selling) from building is not worth your clicks, character and blueprint time. If you think otherwise, again, you're trading. Which is fine. And makes good isk. It's just not industry.
For someone who claims to have gotten it, you absolutely don't got it.
I will take the minerals generously provided for 1 ISK each, and I will manufacture t1 ships and mods that are worth significantly more than their mineral value. You go sell the minerals and your domi bpo for 190mil, I'll be selling my manufactured goods for 300mil.
It's nice that you got it though. |
Shayla Sh'inlux
Coreli Corporation The Kadeshi
45
|
Posted - 2015.01.14 22:57:18 -
[63] - Quote
You keep dreaming that you can do that. |
Paynus Maiassus
Capital Munitions
219
|
Posted - 2015.01.15 05:27:29 -
[64] - Quote
Shayla Sh'inlux wrote:You keep dreaming that you can do that.
I think you need to learn to play. |
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
1611
|
Posted - 2015.01.15 06:51:47 -
[65] - Quote
I will also build some t1 goods that sell for 300m, but I will consider 175.5 m of that trade profit, and 124,5m of that manufacturing profit.
I don't think there are enough items with a profit margin that high, but I can consistently get 220-250m out of those 175m in minerals if you want a more realistic picture.
Build your empire !
Rent Space in Feythabolis and Omist
Contact me for details :)
|
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
700
|
Posted - 2015.01.15 06:53:36 -
[66] - Quote
Paynus Maiassus wrote:Shayla Sh'inlux wrote:You keep dreaming that you can do that. I think you need to learn to play. You both need to get on topic or take your pissing contest elsewhere tbh. |
Echo Gengod
StrangulationE77
0
|
Posted - 2015.01.16 05:02:02 -
[67] - Quote
Cledus Snowman Snow wrote:"the minerals I mine are free issue." Can someone please explain this catch praise. I am not sure what it implies. TY
Look up "Opportunity Costs" in economics.
Yes, EVE will teach you economics and then some.
Also the largest hint I can give is eventually you need to train market skills. Buyers (and immediate sells) are usually for pirates who think "these items I stole are free". |
Paynus Maiassus
Capital Munitions
219
|
Posted - 2015.01.16 11:01:17 -
[68] - Quote
Echo Gengod wrote:Cledus Snowman Snow wrote:"the minerals I mine are free issue." Can someone please explain this catch praise. I am not sure what it implies. TY Look up "Opportunity Costs" in economics. Yes, EVE will teach you economics and then some. Also the largest hint I can give is eventually you need to train market skills. Buyers (and immediate sells) are usually for pirates who think "these items I stole are free".
No, once you train market skills you're no longer a manufacturer. You're a trader. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
703
|
Posted - 2015.01.16 11:24:57 -
[69] - Quote
Paynus Maiassus wrote:No, once you train market skills you're no longer a manufacturer. You're a trader. No, it's fine as long as the balls don't touch. |
Moac Tor
Cy-Core Industries Stain Confederation
26
|
Posted - 2015.01.17 19:58:06 -
[70] - Quote
Every item you use in the manufacturing process SHOULD be based upon the Jita sell price assuming you are operating within easy reach of Jita.
It doesn't matter how much you personally attained the item for when it comes to calculating profits from manufacture, anything extra should be viewed as trading profit. |
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Shayla Sh'inlux
Coreli Corporation The Kadeshi
48
|
Posted - 2015.01.18 18:24:10 -
[71] - Quote
Moac Tor wrote:Every item you use in the manufacturing process SHOULD be based upon the Jita sell price assuming you are operating within easy reach of Jita.
It doesn't matter how much you personally attained the item for when it comes to calculating profits from manufacture, anything extra should be viewed as trading profit.
Absolutely 100% true.
And if you do this, you'll find that a significant amount of t1 items are not profitable to build and those that are profitable either have very low trade volumes or come with an atrociously low isk/hr for an occupied factory slot.
Can you turn 100mil into 200mil building nothing but tech 1? You absolutely can. The "issue" is that you can turn the same 100m into a lot more than 200m by investing it in something else and if you spend the time you used to turn that profit into, say, blitzing lvl 4's, the difference is even larger.
|
Hoohnzy
Vintage heavy industries
1
|
Posted - 2015.01.21 15:55:34 -
[72] - Quote
Shayla Sh'inlux wrote:Moac Tor wrote:Every item you use in the manufacturing process SHOULD be based upon the Jita sell price assuming you are operating within easy reach of Jita.
It doesn't matter how much you personally attained the item for when it comes to calculating profits from manufacture, anything extra should be viewed as trading profit. Absolutely 100% true. And if you do this, you'll find that a significant amount of t1 items are not profitable to build and those that are profitable either have very low trade volumes or come with an atrociously low isk/hr for an occupied factory slot. Can you turn 100mil into 200mil building nothing but tech 1? You absolutely can. The "issue" is that you can turn the same 100m into a lot more than 200m by investing it in something else and if you spend the time you used to turn that profit into, say, blitzing lvl 4's, the difference is even larger.
Hell yeah! Please calculate prices with Jita sell orders (doesnt matter you are doing your stuff 30 jumps away with much cheaper minerals market prices and much more expensive ships, modules and other stuff on region market without needing to haul or just few jumps). Please hate manufactoring and quit it. At least there will be room for people which are manufactoring because they want to and not just for grinding isks.
I really like the feeling when a miner fullfil my mineral buy order (the guy which i meet in local often) and then someone buy stuff from my sell order and I see him flying (probably with my stuff fitted or in cargo) to a combat site.
And yea, I can haul cheap minerals to Jita and do .01 click fest or sell to buy orders to have worse profit then manufactoring and having fun! |
RonPaul Rox
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
65
|
Posted - 2015.01.21 19:44:40 -
[73] - Quote
Shayla Sh'inlux wrote:Quote:Next, he wants to say I'm a trader and not a manufacturer. I beg to differ. My only buy orders were for materials. Thank you for proofing my point. You are a trader. What you do is buy materials at below their sell price through the use of buy orders. You could then choose to sell said minerals at their actual value and make a good profit. Instead you choose to build something with it to add a rather insignificant amount of extra value to said materials, or in many cases even a reduce their value. That's ok, thousands of people do that and thousands of people don't get it which is why the market for t1 is in such a sad state in the first place. Let me make it clearer for you, because I actually DO get it and I'd love others to understand too. Let's assume we have an imaginary friend. Our imaginary friend LOVES to mine and he sells all his minerals to us. In fact, he is even so nice, he sells every mineral to us for 1 isk, regardless of what type it is AND he brings them to our facory station too. On a day, he sells both of us *exactly* enough minerals to build a Dominix at ME 10. Given that a Dominix at ME 10 requires 13,833,502 minerals to build, it costs us 13,833,502 isk. Lucky us! You immediately pull out your max researched Dominix BPO, fork out 5,9 million industry tax to start a job, for a total cost of just over 19,7 million for a Dominix. You rush it to Jita and quickly sell it for 192 million isk for a hefty profit of 172,3 million isk (let's ignore market tax for now). Excellent job! Unfortunately for you, you just destroyed 3 million isk by building the Dominix. See, I, actually getting it, put my Dominix BPO in a lab to make a copy. I put the copy on contracts for whatever they sell for nowadays (250k?) and I sell the minerals in Jita by placing a sell order. The value of the minerals is 189,25 million, making my net profit 175,5 million. These numbers are live from Jita. Building a Dominix, and about 75% of all the other t1 items costs more than the value of the minerals. It's irrelevant what you paid for the materials. Minerals you mine are not free. For the remaining 25% the effective isk/hr you gain (over selling) from building is not worth your clicks, character and blueprint time. If you think otherwise, again, you're trading. Which is fine. And makes good isk. It's just not industry.
using a dominix as an example is a straw man argument.
thousands of domis were produced before their inputs were "rebalanced"
they haven't been profitable since.
give us the numbers on frig, destroyer and cruiser hulls when there is a big FW system contest going on and tell us T1 production isnt profitable
http://imgur.com/EGjYLSL
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Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
712
|
Posted - 2015.01.21 20:13:39 -
[74] - Quote
RonPaul Rox wrote:give us the numbers on frig, destroyer and cruiser hulls when there is a big FW system contest going on and tell us T1 production isnt profitable Almost anything can be profitable during a demand spike.
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Hippinse
University of Caille Gallente Federation
37
|
Posted - 2015.01.21 21:01:09 -
[75] - Quote
Shayla Sh'inlux wrote:If you think otherwise, again, you're trading. Which is fine. And makes good isk. It's just not industry.
What does match your definition of industry then? Can you provide an example? |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
715
|
Posted - 2015.01.22 10:59:31 -
[76] - Quote
Hippinse wrote:Shayla Sh'inlux wrote:If you think otherwise, again, you're trading. Which is fine. And makes good isk. It's just not industry. What does match your definition of industry then? Can you provide an example? It's probably more helpful to categorize the profits generated, rather than the activity itself.
Industrial activities generally go hand in hand with trade anyway, so separating the two may not be straightforward or greatly relevant.
Instead of saying that this activity doesn't qualify as industry because it generates no industrial profit (or is an industrial loss), you would do better to look at each stage in the activity and calculate the profit/loss made there.
This enables you to see your activities for what they are. Profits that you previously believed to come from manufacturing will often turn out to come from trade or hauling. It's worth knowing this, because sometimes this knowledge will unlock optimisations and improvements to your process that will increase your profit or reduce your workload.
Still, if you just want to be a casual industrialist, none of this need matter to you. |
Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
161
|
Posted - 2015.01.22 16:44:59 -
[77] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:RonPaul Rox wrote:give us the numbers on frig, destroyer and cruiser hulls when there is a big FW system contest going on and tell us T1 production isnt profitable Almost anything can be profitable during a demand spike.
Also T1 can be profitable when a decent trade hub is along way away. |
Argent Rotineque
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
8
|
Posted - 2015.01.22 17:39:34 -
[78] - Quote
Hippinse wrote:Shayla Sh'inlux wrote:If you think otherwise, again, you're trading. Which is fine. And makes good isk. It's just not industry.
What does match your definition of industry then? Can you provide an example?
I believe they are calling industry only the step in the process where one thing or group of things is converted to another, done entirely at Jita sell prices (ie 26 Noxium into 1 Veldspar Mining Crystal--which takes 16,000 isk worth of inputs and results in a product worth 13,000 isk).
The best way to see their point is to consider each action to be a separate economic decision:
1. Buy order for pyroxers in a mining region (trade income is the difference between buy order and sell order price for pyroxers either at the mining hub or in jita less red frog hauling costs). 2. Refining at POS (refining income is difference between mineral value and ore value--with the opportunity cost of compressing and selling compressed pyroxers) 3. Manufacturing veldspar mining crystal I, for simplicity's sake lets keep this at the same POS (industry income is difference between sell order nocxium price at Jita and Veldspar mining Crystal I price at Jita). 4. Selling VMC I at mining hub (trade income is the difference between sell order price in Jita and Mining hub).
Step 3 is the only one that's industry (since you always have the alternative to buy from sell orders in Jita and sell via sell order in Jita). Steps 1, 2, and 4 generate most of the income in most manufacturing outfits (2 rarely makes much over it's opportunity cost). |
Clair Bear
Ursine Research and Production
9
|
Posted - 2015.01.22 21:32:59 -
[79] - Quote
RonPaul Rox wrote:[quote=Shayla Sh'inlux]
give us the numbers on frig, destroyer and cruiser hulls when there is a big FW system contest going on and tell us T1 production isnt profitable
It's not profitable if you have any assets worth mentioning you'd like to put to work. How many frigates per day would you need to move to make to even hit 1B ISK profit / day? I'll be generous and make that a month. Either way, it'll be many times existing volumes.
That's a 1% monthly ROI if you have 100B to put to work.
I have 90 t2 production pipelines (copying, invention, production -- the works) which took months to skill for but earned me a ton of ISK back in 2009-2010. They're completely idle since I've re-subbed at the tail end of 2014. Yes, I can make a few things with a decent margin, but with either sales volume problems OR a low cost per item limiting the amount if return I can receive. So now my wallet is somewhat huge, but income potential on it is rather slim.
Manufacturing is now 100% trading. In many instances I'm far better off just margin trading the materials.
And absolutely all cost of production should be done with your local trading hub's buy/sell prices. If you're doing anything else you're doing virtual hauling. Instead of manufacturing you could simply courier contract your materials to Jita, and return with finished goods.
Like Bad Bobby I'm moving my production alts to within a jump or two of Jita. Will likely queue up a T1 job per slot for a month, then forget about it.
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Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
715
|
Posted - 2015.01.23 05:34:32 -
[80] - Quote
Clair Bear wrote:Manufacturing is now 100% trading. In many instances I'm far better off just margin trading the materials. I think part of the issue is that CCP removed everything else.
I used to get paid for:
- Product selection
- Setting up a POS, including gaining the standings and finding/clearing a suitable site
- Fueling, maintaining and defending the POS
- Blueprint research
- Buying inputs
- Hauling fuel and materials to the POS
- Making products
- Hauling products to the market
- Selling products
Now I just buy inputs low and sell them high. Occasionally I make something. Undocking is never required. Everything else is automated, unnecessary or trivial.
I am however making a lot of money, because I'm spending nearly 100% of my time on one efficient activity that makes a lot of scaleable isk. It's not exactly the varied life of the industrialist that I used to enjoy. |
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Shiloh Templeton
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
226
|
Posted - 2015.01.23 16:21:23 -
[81] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Almost all the industrial content is now entry level or low end. Most of the old mid range stuff has been removed or simplified to become entry level or low end. The amount of high end content remains laughably small. Many of the interesting sandbox elements have been undermined or removed. It's all very un-eve. This.
In removing barriers to entry CCP is unwittingly removing accomplishments. Sure, grinding standings for a POS wasn't the most fun, but when you finished it you had accomplished something - and gained an advantage. Likewise, spending the time to train skills that gave you a cost advantage was an accomplishment - and gave you a reason to stay in the game.
Maybe it's worth it to CCP to nerf industry income potential in order to more easily feed the war machines, but I think CCP needs to be careful because they seem to be removing accomplishments/rewards in a lot of areas of the game (high end exploration sites being an exception).
|
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
1617
|
Posted - 2015.01.23 19:04:11 -
[82] - Quote
Hoohnzy wrote:Shayla Sh'inlux wrote:Moac Tor wrote:Every item you use in the manufacturing process SHOULD be based upon the Jita sell price assuming you are operating within easy reach of Jita.
It doesn't matter how much you personally attained the item for when it comes to calculating profits from manufacture, anything extra should be viewed as trading profit. Absolutely 100% true. And if you do this, you'll find that a significant amount of t1 items are not profitable to build and those that are profitable either have very low trade volumes or come with an atrociously low isk/hr for an occupied factory slot. Can you turn 100mil into 200mil building nothing but tech 1? You absolutely can. The "issue" is that you can turn the same 100m into a lot more than 200m by investing it in something else and if you spend the time you used to turn that profit into, say, blitzing lvl 4's, the difference is even larger. Hell yeah! Please calculate prices with Jita sell orders (doesnt matter you are doing your stuff 30 jumps away with much cheaper minerals market prices and much more expensive ships, modules and other stuff on region market without needing to haul or just few jumps). Please hate manufactoring and quit it. At least there will be room for people which are manufactoring because they want to and not just for grinding isks. I really like the feeling when a miner fullfil my mineral buy order (the guy which i meet in local often) and then someone buy stuff from my sell order and I see him flying (probably with my stuff fitted or in cargo) to a combat site. And yea, I can haul cheap minerals to Jita and do .01 click fest or sell to buy orders to have worse profit then manufactoring and having fun!
Still easier to just buy in jita and sell there. Trust me, Iive in c9n right now, and pretty much everything is bought in jita. The only exceptions are capital ships, capital mods and battleships, which are made locally from compressed ore bought in ... Jita
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Bobb Bobbington
DeD Runners United
7
|
Posted - 2015.01.23 22:50:05 -
[83] - Quote
Okay, just an idea, but if they wanted to fix industry, why not change bounty hunting and FW? Just hear me out.
1. CCP changes FW to be more PvP centered- now the main income from FW is PvP instead of sitting in plexes farming LP 2. CCP changes bounty hunting so that it's profitable and is a valid profession used by players
3. The effects of #1 and #2 lead to an increase of PvP in New Eden.
4. Because of more PvP more modules are being destroyed and there is a higher upwards pressure on the price of modules
5. With higher prices industry as a whole becomes more profitable
There are probably better ways to fix it, and maybe there are many ideas like this one, but this one is mine. |
Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
162
|
Posted - 2015.01.24 00:24:52 -
[84] - Quote
Bobb Bobbington wrote:Okay, just an idea, but if they wanted to fix industry, why not change bounty hunting and FW? Just hear me out.
1. CCP changes FW to be more PvP centered- now the main income from FW is PvP instead of sitting in plexes farming LP 2. CCP changes bounty hunting so that it's profitable and is a valid profession used by players
3. The effects of #1 and #2 lead to an increase of PvP in New Eden.
4. Because of more PvP more modules are being destroyed and there is a higher upwards pressure on the price of modules
5. With higher prices industry as a whole becomes more profitable
There are probably better ways to fix it, and maybe there are many ideas like this one, but this one is mine.
been tried got exploited. As a game that has ship insurance and encourages alts there's really no way to make pvp a main income source. Note: I would love it (have an alt in in all 4 FW) |
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
1617
|
Posted - 2015.01.24 00:47:00 -
[85] - Quote
you can make plenty ISK by killing expensive ships.
Build your empire !
Rent Space in Feythabolis and Omist
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|
Phoenix Pryde
3-I Area 42
3
|
Posted - 2015.02.08 14:59:11 -
[86] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote: Almost all the industrial content is now entry level or low end. Most of the old mid range stuff has been removed or simplified to become entry level or low end. The amount of high end content remains laughably small. Many of the interesting sandbox elements have been undermined or removed. It's all very un-eve.
indeed
|
Nathan Shepert
Purging Maelstrom Spaceship Bebop
0
|
Posted - 2015.02.17 11:55:20 -
[87] - Quote
Bobb Bobbington wrote:Okay, just an idea, but if they wanted to fix industry, why not change bounty hunting and FW? Just hear me out.
1. CCP changes FW to be more PvP centered- now the main income from FW is PvP instead of sitting in plexes farming LP 2. CCP changes bounty hunting so that it's profitable and is a valid profession used by players
3. The effects of #1 and #2 lead to an increase of PvP in New Eden.
4. Because of more PvP more modules are being destroyed and there is a higher upwards pressure on the price of modules
5. With higher prices industry as a whole becomes more profitable
There are probably better ways to fix it, and maybe there are many ideas like this one, but this one is mine.
Exactly my opinion.
Hell, I stopped T2-Production and started Lvl3-Missioning, because gives more money....
People buy things they don´t need, with money they don´t have, to
impress people they don´t like !
Walter Slezak
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Darin Raltin
404 Ship Not Found Violent Declaration
0
|
Posted - 2015.02.17 22:44:20 -
[88] - Quote
Am I doing it wrong by using buy order prices as a build cost?
1) Its the liquid price 2) Selling a few raw materials vs. Several finished goods takes me out of competing on minerals. 3) The game theory if everyone sold minerals is that no one sells minerals - there would be so many orders on the market that the time you were the active sell order would be tiny. 4) The bid/ask spread in real life is a liquidity, which in eve is reflected by logistics and time spent trade warring
The bid/ask spread is usually 5-10% and many manufacturing items return 8% on buy orders. Seems like that is the free market at work. |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
4605
|
Posted - 2015.02.18 03:33:08 -
[89] - Quote
Darin Raltin wrote:Am I doing it wrong by using buy order prices as a build cost? Yes.
1 ISK buy orders for jump freighters don't mean the build cost is 1 ISK.
Buy order prices are the prices people hope to pay. |
Darin Raltin
404 Ship Not Found Violent Declaration
0
|
Posted - 2015.02.18 15:40:05 -
[90] - Quote
The jump freighter is not a mineral.
Made up numbers - Trit 1.00 / 1.05: Py 4.00 / 4.20
Your item is 1000 trit and 250 py for a price of 2,000 / 2,100
Buy orders for the item are 1,900 (scam) and sell orders are 2,080. You have to ask yourself if the 20 isk in cost is worth competing in a different market channel (widgets instead of trit and pyerite). One order vs. Two, less participants so you are exposed to the market for longer each day.
If I could move 100 widgets in a day, but I could only move 60 widgets worth of minerals due to competition I would come out ahead. |
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Milla Goodpussy
Federal Navy Academy
154
|
Posted - 2015.02.18 23:29:11 -
[91] - Quote
So now finally you all see greyscale's final troll and his impact on industry was disastrous as predicted! ccp allowed him to screw up a major part of the game..
they've almost guaranteed a CRIUS II patch coming to fix this mess, but we all know the others absolutely hate industry and this hole is dug and will stay deep until someone decides to fix it... which I strongly doubt will be anytime soon
he said it.. he didn't want anyone to be "the best crafter".. so now he allowed everyone to catch up with real time long endure skill training times.. just so that ccp can rip it a new one.
I doubt they fix this guys.. I doubt they even discuss it at fan fest..
I can not wait for their competition to come and take my money!.
and that is all. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
728
|
Posted - 2015.02.19 09:39:06 -
[92] - Quote
Milla Goodpussy wrote:they've almost guaranteed a CRIUS II patch coming to fix this mess I haven't seen any sign of CCP acknowledging the issues, let alone preparing patches to correct them.
Milla Goodpussy wrote:I doubt they fix this guys.. I doubt they even discuss it at fan fest. It will probably come up at industry related round tables and maybe we'll get a question or two asked, but I doubt it'll get much exposure beyond that.
Things getting discussed on the main stage at fanfest isn't really any indication of progress or priority anyway. If you recall CCP Seagull said she wanted to relive the glory of the last really good expansion (Apocrypha - March 2009) by making expansions that hit many areas of the game simultaneously while being linked by an over-arching theme. We haven't seen any sign of that since, not a peep has been heard on the subject and the nature of expansions since that speech was made have been the opposite of that intention. In fact what we've been seeing in each release is a small collection of patches, tweaks and revamps, maybe an actual feature if we're lucky and nothing to link them other than a release name.
So here I am, unfortunately an ex-industrialist because some bright spark decided that one of his last acts before exiting the company was to destroy everything that made EVE industry engaging.
We shouldn't complain though, because at least industry is still in a better state that PvE. Apparently in 2015, clicking red crosses is still the best PvE content CCP is willing to deliver.
|
Milla Goodpussy
Federal Navy Academy
156
|
Posted - 2015.02.19 17:47:49 -
[93] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Milla Goodpussy wrote:they've almost guaranteed a CRIUS II patch coming to fix this mess I haven't seen any sign of CCP acknowledging the issues, let alone preparing patches to correct them. Milla Goodpussy wrote:I doubt they fix this guys.. I doubt they even discuss it at fan fest. It will probably come up at industry related round tables and maybe we'll get a question or two asked, but I doubt it'll get much exposure beyond that. Things getting discussed on the main stage at fanfest isn't really any indication of progress or priority anyway. If you recall CCP Seagull said she wanted to relive the glory of the last really good expansion (Apocrypha - March 2009) by making expansions that hit many areas of the game simultaneously while being linked by an over-arching theme. We haven't seen any sign of that since, not a peep has been heard on the subject and the nature of expansions since that speech was made have been the opposite of that intention. In fact what we've been seeing in each release is a small collection of patches, tweaks and revamps, maybe an actual feature if we're lucky and nothing to link them other than a release name. So here I am, unfortunately an ex-industrialist because some bright spark decided that one of his last acts before exiting the company was to destroy everything that made EVE industry engaging. We shouldn't complain though, because at least industry is still in a better state that PvE. Apparently in 2015, clicking red crosses is still the best PvE content CCP is willing to deliver.
rofl.. if they removed teams, its vital now for a crius II patch cause greyscales entire work around the bpo's/bpc's/invention was centered on teams. |
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
1630
|
Posted - 2015.02.19 20:07:29 -
[94] - Quote
What exactly did you consider engaging that is no longer there?
Build your empire !
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Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
732
|
Posted - 2015.02.20 04:59:13 -
[95] - Quote
Gilbaron wrote:What exactly did you consider engaging that is no longer there? POSes, for a start. Prior to Crius I had a large network of industrial POSes that were essential to my operations.
You can say what you like about how bad POSes are and have been, but they are vehicles for content. I had to gain standings to anchor my POSes, I had to clear previous residents off the moons I wished to use, I had to raise money for, acquire, ship, design and assemble those POSes. Once the POSes were up I had to fuel, maintain and defend them. There were many things for me to consider with respect to risk, reward, investment and efficiency.
Now it is difficult to justify having one industrial POS, let alone a large network of them. Standings are not needed. Moons are plentiful because supply was increased and demand dropped massively, so there isn't much call for clearing them or defending them. The current state of POSes means that you don't have to think much about setting them up and the ideal configurations are often close to bare POSes (if indeed you can justify having one at all). POS functionality is now very lacking, so they don't really do much.
Build location also used to be a more interesting decision, because you had to be able to anchor POSes. This also meant we had to spread out around EVE. The current job cost incentive to spread out is weak, rich with perverse incentives and pretty exploitable.
Now I am better off just producing everything in NPC stations near Jita to reduce workload at the cost of a small fee, or I can go bunny hopping around low-sec with a JF to avoid the fees. Neither is as interesting as building a massive destructible factory complex in space, maintaining it and defending it.
POSes were far from perfect before Crius and even further from perfect after Crius. CCP should have waited until they had a suitable replacement for the old POSes before gutting them. Failing that they should have followed through on Crius with a total POS revamp in a timely manner. Well over six months have passed since Crius and a POS revamp was needed for many years prior to that. Developers being scared of code isn't an excuse I'm going to accept on this, or anything else. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
732
|
Posted - 2015.02.20 05:47:04 -
[96] - Quote
I also ran a POS rental operation prior to Crius, where I rented out slots and space in my POS network to others. I was, for a long time, part of one of the research alliances that rented out POS slots to alliance members and allowed industrialists to join individually or in corporations.
I also rented out locked down BPOs to people.
BPOs locked down in an NPC station, or in a different corp's hangars, cannot be used in a POS anymore. That functionality was removed in Crius.
Crius snuffed out quite a lot of these kinds of player run businesses.
I also remember that at one time I may have scammed a few people with an investment scheme that revolved around locked down Titan BPOs being copied at a POS. You couldn't do that now, either.
|
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
1632
|
Posted - 2015.02.20 06:47:54 -
[97] - Quote
alright, you definitely got a point with your POS business being gone.
however, a lot of the indu changes that are hopefully still coming massively depend on a structure and sov rework. i see a future for player owned stuff in all areas of eve that can replace NPC owned stuff
the indu framework has a lot of room coded in for improvements and future changes
everything refining can easily be adjusted to make player owned stuff better than NPC stuff (and that's gonna create content) changes to production times along the lines are trivial to make by increasing the rank (and that's gonna make room for more players in industry) the indu formula has room for ME and TE boni that can only be achieved in player owned environments
all these things can only be implemented with other changes being made first (corp roles, structures and sov)
add some ways to disrupt another industrials gameplay and remove the anonymity of the business and bam. content
Build your empire !
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Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
732
|
Posted - 2015.02.20 07:26:39 -
[98] - Quote
So you're giving me "Soon (TM)"?
Great, that's the same answer I've been getting for a long time.
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Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
1632
|
Posted - 2015.02.20 07:29:39 -
[99] - Quote
But this time, we have a team working on structures and another team working on Corp roles.
Build your empire !
Rent Space in Feythabolis and Omist
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Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
732
|
Posted - 2015.02.20 07:41:50 -
[100] - Quote
Gilbaron wrote:the indu framework has a lot of room coded in for improvements and future changes Yes, there certainly is a lot of room for improvement.
That's not the same as actual improvement though.
Gilbaron wrote:But this time, we have a team working on structures and another team working on Corp roles. Not long ago we had a team working on industry, so forgive me if that doesn't fill me with confidence.
But you are right, there are simple things that can be done to correct a lot of these problems. One of them, as you said, is to re-balance the industry ranks so they actually work. Are you telling me that this takes more than six months to do, or are you saying that structures and corp roles are in some way a pre-req to that? Given we're talking about changing some numbers in a table or some such, is this another area where developers are scared to go?
|
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Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
1633
|
Posted - 2015.02.20 17:01:38 -
[101] - Quote
I say that it makes sense to wait a while before making changes. For me, it has become clear that ranks need a rework, especially for modules. But Indu changes of this magnitude do certainly need time to show their full impact
Let's take the fatigue changes as an example. Those have, and will continue to change the way nullsec is supplied. Taking a look at caps and cap mod ranks makes no sense without waiting a bit to see how sov null adjusts to the changes.
Build your empire !
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Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn
Department 10
217
|
Posted - 2015.02.22 11:32:02 -
[102] - Quote
In terms of modules being used and strengths of modules I have a fairly good idea what is being planned..........but I'm not going to tell you.
" They're gonna feel pretty stupid when they find out. "-áRick.
" Find out what ? "-áAbraham.
" They're screwing with the wrong people. "-áRick.
Season four.-á-á ' The Walking Dead. ' .
|
Alex Rosen
Ammunition Deliveries
2
|
Posted - 2015.03.03 12:05:36 -
[103] - Quote
I agree there's many simple things that could be done to correct the actual situation, but first it should be some kind of signal of CCP recognizing there's a problem. So far I haven't seen one.
And the guy apparently responsible of this isn't even in the company anymore.
Also CCP has a very distorted view of the production situation. Eve market had a severe problem of overproduction before Crius and they add a TE bonus for almost every science related skill? WTF |
March rabbit
Federal Defense Union
1548
|
Posted - 2015.03.04 11:35:31 -
[104] - Quote
Selaria Unbertable wrote: ... And traveling around with BPCs and datacores, despite their volume reduction, is a pita, you have to get back to fetch the invented bpcs and bring them to your production facility...
not only pita but RISK. The thing is all the game is around (at least they say so).
Replacing RISK by cost-efficiency is bad for the game design. That's why i have never understood the reasons behind slots removing. We want people to use POSes? POSes are not needed since slots removed. We want people to spread around and risk by their stuff doing this? No need to move from Jita anyway. You just pay more for doing industry there. Industry is limited by availability of slots and time? There is no more limits here.
Need to say that all my experience with industry comes from occasional researching tasks in past and few manufacturing cases. So i agree right from the start that i can miss lots of things here. However: - Year ago: i bought BPC in Dodixie. I fill my ship by minerals and go 3 systems away to manufacture the ship (Dodixie slots are busy for next 10+ days). Time+RISK here (i use industrial + i'm in militia so i have lots of wartargets). - Yesterday: i bought BPC for ship in Dodixie. I press few buttons and manufacture the ship. The cost is few thousand ISK (maybe it was more but i didn't notice it anyway). Hour after and newly created ship is on market. Hour after and i have sold it and got a profit. Time? Nope. RISK? Nope. For me it is great and flawless. For the game - it is bad design.
The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
|
Trin Javidan
Caymen Labs
66
|
Posted - 2015.03.09 12:10:57 -
[105] - Quote
Alex Rosen wrote:I agree there's many simple things that could be done to correct the actual situation, but first it should be some kind of signal of CCP recognizing there's a problem. So far I haven't seen one.
And the guy apparently responsible for this isn't even in the company anymore.
Also CCP has a very distorted view of the production situation. Eve market had a severe problem of overproduction before Crius and they add a TE bonus for almost every science related skill? WTF
I tell ya, its like the dude responsible almost did it on purpose to ruin it. Coincidentally the same was responsible for dominion sov, alchemy, super buffs, technetium and the T2 overhaul. (and allegedly he was a goon: which prim goal is to destroy eve) |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
756
|
Posted - 2015.03.09 15:35:54 -
[106] - Quote
Alex Rosen wrote:I agree there's many simple things that could be done to correct the actual situation, but first it should be some kind of signal of CCP recognizing there's a problem. So far I haven't seen one. Not a peep so far, but it's early days.
We've been waiting since December 2009 for Dominion Sov to be fixed and that part of the game, to quote CCP Fozzie, is a big ******* deal. If CCP think that industry is a comparatively niche part of the game (as evidenced by the treatment it has received thus far) we might not even get that kind of rapid attention.
While there are some quick wins that can be had, like re-mapping blueprint ranks, there are also some really nasty bits of the game that need to be completely re-worked. Just ripping out Crius will not help, because a big part of the Crius problem is that they papered over the cracks in related areas of the game rather than fixing them.
In order to have an industry system that is actually better than either the post-Crius or pre-Crius industry systems and represents real progress, we need extensive re-works done on both POSes and corp roles. We'll also need some more minor work done (and a thorough bug-fix) on the inventory and contract systems. That's before you consider logistics, mining etc.
Looking at the amount of work that needs to be done, the rate at which CCP is progressing and the sometimes cowboy-quality workmanship that we've been getting from them lately... I would strongly advise against anyone holding their breath for this.
Alex Rosen wrote:And the guy apparently responsible for this isn't even in the company anymore. I think we can be thankful for that small mercy.
Alex Rosen wrote:Also CCP has a very distorted view of the production situation. Eve market had a severe problem of overproduction before Crius and they add a TE bonus for almost every science related skill? WTF This touches on one of the thorny issues we have with CCP, that they don't know or understand their own game as well as we would like. As a result they keep on doing pants-on-head ******** things, over and over again. I think they need to work harder at hiring and retaining more subject matter experts in the design and QA teams.
Trin Javidan wrote:I tell ya, its like the dude responsible almost did it on purpose to ruin it. Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
Trin Javidan wrote:Coincidentally the same was responsible for dominion sov, alchemy, super buffs, technetium and the T2 overhaul. All of which can be attributed to a woefully shallow understanding of the game. That, combined with excessive confidence and the usual pressures of business.
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Quartermaster Wild
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2015.03.10 03:31:18 -
[107] - Quote
As someone just starting up research / manufacturing (coming from a station trader), this is a fascinating thread, thanks especially to Bad Bobby and Gilbaron.
Question: Comments were made about the lack of higher end content available for this avenue of gameplay in EvE - aside from the previous industry iteration that allowed Bad Bobby to operate on such an impressive scale, what currently would you define as the higher end content? Supercaps / Titans? T3 Cruisers? |
Sabriz Adoudel
Glorious Revolutionary Armed Forces of Highsec CODE.
4812
|
Posted - 2015.03.10 05:11:25 -
[108] - Quote
Quartermaster Wild wrote:As someone just starting up research / manufacturing (coming from a station trader), this is a fascinating thread, thanks especially to Bad Bobby and Gilbaron (edit: Also Sabriz).
Question: Comments were made about the lack of higher end content available for this avenue of gameplay in EvE - aside from the previous industry iteration that allowed Bad Bobby to operate on such an impressive scale, what currently would you define as the higher end content? Supercaps / Titans? T3 Cruisers?
High end industry content can just be a matter of scaling it up (I know one person that runs about 400 science jobs at a time). It can be producing individual supercapitals, larger numbers of capitals, or serious production lines of the larger subcapitals (particularly T1 battleships, which require tens of billions of capital).
For me, a good deal of my production profit comes from sourcing pirate ship BPCs at bargain prices, moving them to areas they will sell well, and building the hulls there and selling them. This can be done on a larger scale than I do it.
Chaos. Opportunity. Destruction. Excitement... Vote #1 Sabriz Adoudel for CSM 10
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Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
756
|
Posted - 2015.03.10 05:28:08 -
[109] - Quote
Quartermaster Wild wrote:Comments were made about the lack of higher end content available for this avenue of gameplay in EvE - aside from the previous industry iteration that allowed Bad Bobby to operate on such an impressive scale, what currently would you define as the higher end content? Supercaps / Titans? T3 Cruisers? The only elements of EVE industry that count as high end industrial content in my mind, are supercapital production and production from T2 BPOs. Both are only high end due to the high barriers to entry, as the actual content represented by either option is rather simplistic, but the road taken to gain access to either option is often rather complex. In both cases it's the nature of the sandbox surrounding them that makes them interesting.
What I was doing with my POS network before Crius killed it, was mid-range content done on a fairly large scale. It was the scale of my operations and the massive persistent destructible factory network that I had to build and run to do it that made it both complex and interesting. Now most of the mid-range options have been removed, what remains are things like POS-based capital manufacturing, T3 production, reactions and drug production.
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Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
756
|
Posted - 2015.03.10 05:33:21 -
[110] - Quote
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:High end industry content can just be a matter of scaling it up I disagree on that point. Massive scale doesn't make the content high-end industry, it just makes the player a high-end industrialist.
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HoruSeth
Republic University Minmatar Republic
15
|
Posted - 2015.03.11 10:12:39 -
[111] - Quote
Selaria Unbertable wrote: Thin, yes. But some were still profitable. The problem is the huge decrease in production time of modules and ammo, resulting in a much larger supply, while the demand has not increased significantly. Drones, rigs and ships were not affected by this, their production time has not changed that drastically.
That's just not correct. I have produced Rigs, T1 and T2 before Crius a lot (as I do exploration a lot) and it was well worth the time and effort. Nowadays it's not even close to be worthwile to think about. It's more efficient to just sell the Salvage to buy orders.
Crius and especially the reprocessing patch ****** up industry in most areas. I am happy they took at least the teams out again.
The problems really are the "mined minerals are free" people and those who may not have recognised, that material requirements for some stuff have changed. But I don't want to cry about that. It's just a conclusion from what I have seen and recognised on the market. While before Crius you could produce stuff without doing trading, this is nowadays very hard to do / in most cases impossible.
So you only use nowadays production to maximise your trading profit, whilst it was before Crius vice versa. You traded to maximise your production profit. |
EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
719
|
Posted - 2015.03.12 15:12:45 -
[112] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote: The only elements of EVE industry that count as high end industrial content in my mind, are supercapital production and production from T2 BPOs. Both are only high end due to the high barriers to entry, as the actual content represented by either option is rather simplistic, but the road taken to gain access to either option is often rather complex. In both cases it's the nature of the sandbox surrounding them that makes them interesting.
supercap manufacturing is so ******* boring, the only effort is freightering |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
760
|
Posted - 2015.03.12 16:37:43 -
[113] - Quote
EvilweaselFinance wrote:Bad Bobby wrote: The only elements of EVE industry that count as high end industrial content in my mind, are supercapital production and production from T2 BPOs. Both are only high end due to the high barriers to entry, as the actual content represented by either option is rather simplistic, but the road taken to gain access to either option is often rather complex. In both cases it's the nature of the sandbox surrounding them that makes them interesting.
supercap manufacturing is so ******* boring, the only effort is freightering I agree... except, of course, when it goes wrong... then it can get exciting!
All of EVE's industry has always been overly simple. The only real challenges were provided by the lack of good documentation, the terrible UI, the plentiful bugs, the mind crushing boredom and other players ******* with your ****.
But then players created their own documentation, player-made tools compensated for some of the terrible UI, players figured their way around the bugs, players took drugs, massively multi-boxed, played other games or watched TV on another screens to deal with the boredom. Very little challenge remained for the veteran player.
Then CCP allowed almost all industry to be carried out inside an NPC station with no meaningful downsides. Removing almost all options for other players ******* with your ****. No challenge remained for the veteran player, except how to get those Cheeto stains out of the carpet.
So now CCP either needs to bring back the sandbox and allow players to generate some decent content for each other, or they actually need to create an industry system that doesn't resemble a child's teething toy. Preferably both. |
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
1748
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Posted - 2015.03.13 22:44:26 -
[114] - Quote
HoruSeth wrote:Selaria Unbertable wrote: Thin, yes. But some were still profitable. The problem is the huge decrease in production time of modules and ammo, resulting in a much larger supply, while the demand has not increased significantly. Drones, rigs and ships were not affected by this, their production time has not changed that drastically.
That's just not correct. I have produced Rigs, T1 and T2 before Crius a lot (as I do exploration a lot) and it was well worth the time and effort. Nowadays it's not even close to be worthwile to think about. It's more efficient to just sell the Salvage to buy orders. Crius and especially the reprocessing patch ****** up industry in most areas. I am happy they took at least the teams out again. The problems really are the "mined minerals are free" people and those who may not have recognised, that material requirements for some stuff have changed. But I don't want to cry about that. It's just a conclusion from what I have seen and recognised on the market. While before Crius you could produce stuff without doing trading, this is nowadays very hard to do / in most cases impossible. So you only use nowadays production to maximise your trading profit, whilst it was before Crius vice versa. You traded to maximise your production profit.
that's bullshit. rigs are extremely profitable to manufacture. lots of them are well above 500.000 ISK/hr and well above 20% profit. they also sell great and material is easy to get.
Build your empire !
Rent Space in Feythabolis and Omist
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Captain Zorg
Capitoline Research and Development
4
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Posted - 2015.03.19 00:32:10 -
[115] - Quote
Lors Dornick wrote:T2 production is a complete mess, don't try it or run your own figures, it's a guaranteed loss.
I'm making a fortune. |
Claudia Cotta
Guns Ships and Ammo Trade
0
|
Posted - 2015.03.19 00:50:17 -
[116] - Quote
I buy from Jita, ship it out to build and then ship it back. I'm making between 15 and 35 million profit per ship depending on the market. I sell 120-140 ships per month from that production line.
Since the changes to POS came into effect I can in theory run numerous productions lines from the same modules using different characters. My only limitation in the near term is playing the Isk game in Jita. |
inflogim
Blue Color Works
2
|
Posted - 2015.05.22 08:40:55 -
[117] - Quote
Captain Zorg wrote:Lors Dornick wrote:T2 production is a complete mess, don't try it or run your own figures, it's a guaranteed loss.
I'm making a fortune.
Could You be so kind not to input Your unproductive comments into otherwise very informative thread ? Thanks. Bobby, Gilbaron, much appreciated that You took time and effort to produce all those posts. |
Shakuul
Infinitus Sapientia
20
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Posted - 2015.05.22 15:12:15 -
[118] - Quote
Ms Forum Alt wrote:I haven't built anything since Crius. I still run my fingers over those spreadsheets occasionally, but the margins I see on most things make it not worth my time to bother. It seems "the minerals I mine are free" is the only way to make a good solid profit building things in Eve these days. If you want to run your operation as a business, you're better off doing it for love, not margin.
I think a lot of it with ships is "I bought a MASSIVE stockpile before mineral re-balancing, so my minerals really are cheaper." I bought some high megacyte/zydrine modules pre-patch and can afford to sell them below build cost because my original costs were below build costs.
Also the fact that 100% reprocessing has been removed kills manufacturing. Before, anything that was sold below mineral value got taken off the market immediately. Now has to either buy out all of them and hope the price stays higher (a dicey proposition) or actually buy the item to use, which also takes time. |
Geopoly
Republic University Minmatar Republic
2
|
Posted - 2015.07.17 17:03:06 -
[119] - Quote
Thank you all contributors to this informative, yet depressing thread. I was hoping to start making some ISK manufacturing rather than mining, apparently my dreams will never come true...
I hope CCP will fix tiers of items so lowest cannot be produced so fast and flood the market. Science & industry skills must be an accomplishment and give a competitive advantage. Now skills are no achievement, nothing to aspire or plan for... And also be a man CCP, delete all those T2 BPOs finally!
As for hopes for another industry centered expansion, in this podcast, Fozzie destroys all hope: http://evenews24.com/2015/07/16/en24-podcast-ccp-fozzie-on-sovereignty-part-ii/ |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
941
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 15:03:22 -
[120] - Quote
Geopoly wrote:Thank you all contributors to this informative, yet depressing thread. I was hoping to start making some ISK manufacturing rather than mining, apparently my dreams will never come true... The reality is hardly as depressing as this thread suggests. There is always profit to be made.
I'll stand by my statement that the lower ranks need to be remapped.
S&I skills have been massively devalued and no "added bonus" for replacing Production Efficiency (compulsory skill) with Advanced Industry (yes, let's have even more overproduction) has ever materialised.
T2 BPOs are fine, finer than they have been for some time really. All the issues with them are now either fixed, historical or identical to the issues presented by all of EVE's industry system.
The industry expansion you are looking for is when they release all the new structures. That's when the meat will arrive to go with the potatoes that we must subsist on in the meantime. Unless they **** it up, obviously.
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Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
1046
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Posted - 2015.07.23 15:24:49 -
[121] - Quote
Geopoly wrote: And also be a man CCP, delete all those T2 BPOs finally!
whats your business with T2 BPOs? Jealous? They already have been severely nerfed in all the industry "rebalance", they became so bad that people dont want them anymore. Their market value has dropped by 50% or so. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
941
|
Posted - 2015.07.23 15:42:03 -
[122] - Quote
Robert Caldera wrote:Geopoly wrote:And also be a man CCP, delete all those T2 BPOs finally!
whats your business with T2 BPOs? Jealous? They already have been severely nerfed in all the industry "rebalance", they became so bad that people dont want them anymore. Their market value has dropped by 50% or so. The T2-BPO only era and the terrible way invention was originally implemented has given T2 BPOs a bad reputation. Oh, that and a minor issue with a corrupt CCP employee giving them to his friends.
T2 BPOs now are not T2 BPOs then. All we get for our massive investment of tens of billions of isk is a reduction in clicks and some minor cost reductions. Plus, because our BPOs are worth so much it's risky to use them in a POS. So we have a big risk associated with using a productivity tool that inventors can use without worry.
I love T2 BPOs. But they 'aint ******* with yo **** no more so you can chill about that. |
Shiloh Templeton
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
353
|
Posted - 2015.07.24 19:33:27 -
[123] - Quote
Robert Caldera wrote:Geopoly wrote: And also be a man CCP, delete all those T2 BPOs finally!
whats your business with T2 BPOs? Jealous? They already have been severely nerfed in all the industry "rebalance", they became so bad that people dont want them anymore. Their market value has dropped by 50% or so. So 10-20+ billion from 20-40+ billion? Interesting how the people who own T2 BPO's are the one's who insist they are worthless so no need to mess with them.
Jealous? Sure. But it doesn't really matter since the one person at CCP who might have tried to get rid of them isn't around any more. And industry carries on with them still in the game.
Moon materials have a much bigger impact on my industry activities/profitability. I more wish CCP would get the siphon working the way it was intended so there would be an opportunity for black market materials to affect the game.
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Geopoly
Republic University Minmatar Republic
2
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Posted - 2015.07.26 05:41:29 -
[124] - Quote
I've checked profitability of Freighters/Orca in IPH. It's like 50k per hour! Considering the price of BPOs and time needed to build, is it really fair or balanced at all? |
Painkill3r
Perkone Caldari State
19
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Posted - 2015.07.26 17:31:25 -
[125] - Quote
Geopoly wrote:I've checked profitability of Freighters/Orca in IPH. It's like 50k per hour! Considering the price of BPOs and time needed to build, is it really fair or balanced at all?
Supply and Demand mate.
The role of the industrialist, as with anyone else who makes their isk on the market, is to supply what buyers want. If not many people want what you have for sale or what you produce, relative to the number of people producing it, you're never going to have much profit. |
Talsha Talamar
Nebula Rasa Holdings Nebula Rasa
19
|
Posted - 2015.07.27 04:14:56 -
[126] - Quote
If CCP needs any proof for the desolate situation of the industry gameplay, the activity level on this subforum should make it abundantly clear.
Industry has been simplified to a degree, that it turned into trading in most cases. As clunky as the teams feature was, it allowed dedicated industrialists to achieve clear market advantages based on manufacturing. Crius has leveled the industrial playing field to a degree that it has become boring.
We need an iteration on the teams feature at the very least. Missioning is by now way more profitable than most industry activties with much less risk as well as investment of isk and time attached. |
erg cz
Aligned Fleet CZ-SK
309
|
Posted - 2015.07.27 07:42:19 -
[127] - Quote
Did anyone noticed, that since May of this year the number of sell order in Jita droped from 114 thousands to 101 thousands? Like 10 % drop, you know? Dodixie dropes from 42 to 37. So - even harder. Summer always displayed less activity on market, but depression never was that heavy. |
Talsha Talamar
Nebula Rasa Holdings Nebula Rasa
19
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Posted - 2015.07.27 12:18:19 -
[128] - Quote
erg cz wrote:Did anyone noticed, that since May of this year the number of sell order in Jita droped from 114 thousands to 101 thousands? Like 10 % drop, you know? Dodixie dropes from 42 to 37. So - even harder. Summer always displayed less activity on market, but depression never was that heavy.
It is a shame that we no longer get the quarterly reports from that economics professor.
I went over quite a few numbers in t2 invention. Most items I checked that were somehow profitable (> Isk 200k slot/hour) were heavily saturated with sell offers. Many items were profitable primarily because someone had hiked the market.
Given the amount of hassle it is to actually sell the products in such a situation, especially in combination with the required isk-games, heavy market manipulation, the cyclic nature of eve-markets and the point that many people do not run proper profitability analysis, the slot/hour rates for most industrialy activties are simply not worth it.
If one adds in the time required for hauling, production clicking, market analysis, selling and the many costs of opportunity associated with production, including hediging against the risks of the markets and the sandbox, industrial activities become even more unattractive compared to other gameplay.
Riskswise just look at all the ship-bpos with month of research on them that became unprofitable for years after the extra-material changes made by CCP. Or look at the POS changes that made multiple modules besides weapons pretty much useless and worthless. Now look at the impending doom of the structure reform that might destroy the value of POS related BPO. Then take into consideration the changes to refining and the effect that had on the value of stockpiles and the list goes on and on ...
Industry in EvE today is simply not profitable enough given the financial risks and time involved.
I know that there are some areas and strategies in industry that are still somewhat profitable relative to other means of income. But they seem to be the exception and would probably not hold up well if one properly accounted all associated costs. |
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
1047
|
Posted - 2015.07.27 15:08:36 -
[129] - Quote
Shiloh Templeton wrote: So 10-20+ billion from 20-40+ billion? Interesting how the people who own T2 BPO's are the one's who insist they are worthless so no need to mess with them.
I didnt say they are worthless, I say they already have been nerfed heavily for no reason other than jealous people unwilling to do investment and buy such a BPO by themselves. |
350125GO
Isogen 5
159
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Posted - 2015.07.27 19:57:57 -
[130] - Quote
Robert Caldera wrote:Shiloh Templeton wrote: So 10-20+ billion from 20-40+ billion? Interesting how the people who own T2 BPO's are the one's who insist they are worthless so no need to mess with them.
I didnt say they are worthless, I say they already have been nerfed heavily for no reason other than jealous people unwilling to do investment and buy such a BPO by themselves.
I've actually stopped building from most of my T2 BPOs because they've become unprofitable to build with since Crius. I don't manufacture enough to justify setting up a POS so, being strictly station based, my T2 BPOs are collecting dust because the items sell at a loss for what I can produce them for.
You're young, you'll adjust.
I'm old, I'll get used to it.
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Legatus1982
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
12
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Posted - 2015.07.30 16:48:27 -
[131] - Quote
350125GO wrote:Robert Caldera wrote:Shiloh Templeton wrote: So 10-20+ billion from 20-40+ billion? Interesting how the people who own T2 BPO's are the one's who insist they are worthless so no need to mess with them.
I didnt say they are worthless, I say they already have been nerfed heavily for no reason other than jealous people unwilling to do investment and buy such a BPO by themselves. I've actually stopped building from most of my T2 BPOs because they've become unprofitable to build with since Crius. I don't manufacture enough to justify setting up a POS so, being strictly station based, my T2 BPOs are collecting dust because the items sell at a loss for what I can produce them for.
From "most of my t2 bpo's" lol. Good to know there are players with stockpiles of t2 bpo's in this game.
I feel bad for your loss and maybe you should get some reimbursement given the cost of purchase, but then again you probably recovered the cost anyways. |
Hemmo Paskiainen
491
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Posted - 2015.07.31 14:33:08 -
[132] - Quote
The industry side lost alot of dept. And in the bigger picture, the T2 changes were needed to simplyfy the player income streams to be able to have better control over them. While at the same time value got removed and a hugh portion off steady income off players got taken out of the market. Smart move indeed, but very very player unfriendly. I dont know if anyone is noticing the bigger picture of witch the T2 changes were just part off: A total overhaul of the entire income systems of the players to be able to control and manipulate it easier: and thus potentially be able to raise it... (why just manipulate the plexes if you can do it better). I guess the smart ccp economist finaly solved the puzzle of the (missed) revenue stream.
About T2 bpo's, i amhappy i got off in time. T2 bpo's will go much much lower. Expect 2006 prices: 20b for ships untill another industy overhaul or something that give T2 bpo's more benifits
"Relativity equals time plus momentum: if it can be erased by a single click on a button, would it be worth spending your time?"
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