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Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
891
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Posted - 2015.01.24 02:05:12 -
[1] - Quote
Having titan style damage scaling by sig so that short of extreme webbing/painting fighters can't out damage the appropriate sized drones on smaller targets and some method of preventing a pilot assigning fighters while inside the normal FF radius of a POS so they can't make themselves effectively immune to repercussion while having a sizeable impact on the battlefield would mostly fix that issue.
Not a great solution but fighters are piloted by mere mortals which could explain why they aren't so proficient at gunnery :s |

Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
891
|
Posted - 2015.01.25 03:00:03 -
[2] - Quote
Solaris Vex wrote:Fighters are pretty easy to counter already, just broadcast for reps. Or outrun them they only move at 2500m/s. Or shoot them, they're sig radius is 400m, for comparison a sabre with MWD is only 300m.
In the battle against PL last December we (HERO Coalition) destroyed fighters so rapidly that PL stopped launching them. If fighters generated killmails our isk efficiency would have been through the roof.
But nothing will stop people from complaining if they can't solo a carrier with their vagabond.
Since recent patches fighters can easily top 5km/s, their sig radius is 100m - its their guns that have a 400m sig (I believe) but with the "skynet" fits on thannies and supers they can track and apply significant damage to even tiny ships like interceptors - potentially upto ~42K alpha from a nyx.
The problem here is nothing to do with soloing a carrier with a vagabond. If your on the average casual roam and have someone drop assigned fighters from a carrier/super setup with the "skynet" fit they will alpha through smaller ships long before reps land, in heavy fights where "skynet" fits aren't feasible anyhow its a whole different ballgame.
Sgt Ocker wrote: So your suggestion (part of which already applies, fighters can't be assigned from inside a pos) is another round of nerfs rather than a fix that doesn't reduce a carriers capability further? Simply changing the "fighter assign" mechanic to match "drone assist" (not in drone control range = not assigned) would be the best fix and would make carriers / supers 100% vulnerable to attack.
I don't personally want to see fighters/carriers nerfed at all (I've a couple of gal carrier V, fighters V, ADI V, etc. etc. characters myself). I want to see balance in it though - currently fighters can be setup to easily apply significantly "out of class" damage and I certainly don't want to see fighter assignment become basically glorified drone assist.
The reason for the POS FF thing is due to a number of techniques that people have been using allowing them to assign fighters while making use of the safety of the POS (NOT hugging the FF) resulting in them being able to contribute significantly to a fight while realistically safe from any harm themselves. |

Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
891
|
Posted - 2015.01.25 12:56:49 -
[3] - Quote
By "out of class" damage I'm referring to the fact that fighters with the "skynet" fit can significantly out perform the "appropriately" sized drones for a given target not that they give the ship they are assigned to out of its class damage. Hence my suggestion of using titan style damage scaling so that its harder to use them to alpha small ships. |

Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
891
|
Posted - 2015.01.26 12:00:27 -
[4] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote: Balancing fighters to suit one particular fit (skynet), would render them all but useless for any other purpose.
I am unsure what you mean by "appropriately sized drones". I use heavy drones on small ships, I have even used light drones on battleships. So what exactly are "appropriately sized drones" for a given target.
With a combat fit carrier, fighters don't one shot small ships, in fact they have great difficulty hitting small targets without the addition of 2 or 3 omnis. Even then to apply anywhere near full damage the target needs to be webbed.
Best solution all round is to render the Skynet fit obsolete in its current form. If a carrier pilot wants to gate camp to get kills with fighters, they should be forced to take the same risks as the rest of their fleet and those they are fighting.
Using the carriers role bonus to fighter control range allows them to be on grid but not right in the midst of things.
The "problem" with the normal tracking formula is that the lower tracking issues your dealing with the less relevance signature radius has on how well you hit with turret based weapons (this actually works quite well for eve in general) but by applying titan style scaling to fighters it would only very very minorly impact on their efficiency against smaller targets with a combat fit carrier but have a much bigger balancing factor when a "skynet" fit was used - with the right target "optimal" sig set there would be no impact on their use against larger targets in both scenarios.
Heavy drones do half the alpha or less and a lot less dps than a set of fighters and can't be assigned.
Eve has a messed up balance when it comes to risk and implementation of it and I don't personally believe that forcing a carrier to be on grid to use its capabilities is necessarily the right call in that light especially when it comes to supers but I do believe that it should be potentially vulnerable to repercussion (if the opposing force is creative or clever enough, etc.) if it is actively involved in combat whereas as things stand there are a number of ways (I don't know the full steps to reproducing all of them) in which the carrier pilot can be for all realistic intents and purposes immune - there are a couple of other threads on here that cover it. |

Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
891
|
Posted - 2015.01.26 20:14:04 -
[5] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote:
The skynet fit is only applying damage like that because he can "afford" to fit all drone application/damage mods. Just requiring the carrier/super to be within drone control range would mean nobody use fit like that unless they want to field suicide skynet carriers because some day, someone will go there with more than 6 HACs and that skynet boat will burn.
Refitting on a mobile depot or another carrier isn't out of the question. |

Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
891
|
Posted - 2015.01.27 11:21:36 -
[6] - Quote
Forcing fighters to be used in a glorified assist way would be a fairly significant nerf to carrier capabilities - overall a far bigger nerf than what I'm suggesting. My interest here is finding a balanced solution.
Skynet carriers in this form haven't been around for years - the changes that made this possible are months old.
Jumping a scout in and finding 10 domis on grid is a totally different scenario to jumping in and finding 1-3 small ships with the carrier/super not always so obvious for a variety of reasons.
Assigned fighters with good skills is around 1000-2500 per assigned ship depending on carrier or super and skills but most instances I'm aware of they usually have enough ships in reserve to apply more than that if necessary. |

Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
891
|
Posted - 2015.01.27 20:05:52 -
[7] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote: I'm not sure you understand what you are suggesting - Titan style damage scaling would leave a carrier using fighters unable to hit anything smaller than another carrier or possibly an MWD battleship.
I don't mean copy and paste the exact set of parameters as per titan damage scaling as that would leave them incapable of being used for much at all yeah, but using the same style of sig based scaling but set at a lower level would still allow them to hit say larger sig cruisers and upwards fairly well and BS and upwards fully but much harder for them to apply 1000s of points of alpha to frigs and other smaller stuff - which currently using "skynet" style fits they can do relatively easily with minimal support.
Sgt Ocker wrote: I've been using assigned fighters for at least 4 years and yes recent changes have made them more effective but that really begs the question - Do CCP look at what effects changes they make a likely to have or is it just a case of - Lets do it and see what happens. Assigning fighters has been around a long time but now because Devs gave Carriers and Supers a much needed damage buff, they are on the line for a range of nerfs to reduce their effectiveness due to the use of one particular fit in a fairly limited scenario.
I take it you believe carriers should be immune to any conflict whilst they have fighters assigned - Why should this be the case?
You say it would be a significant nerf for them to sit 400k off a gate with fighters assigned, why? Should we remove all risk from Eve?
What variety of reasons is going to hide assigned fighters? The carrier or super may not be in view but the fighters it has assigned certainly would be. If you wait until the fight has begun to assign them (the only way it would not be obvious) what you are assigning them to, is likely to be dead by the time they arrive.
And yes, when I looked at dps it was on a lower skilled carrier toon, (my bad). A little over 1100 for my max skill Thany
I've never seen a group using fighter assign that has ships in reserve, hiding somewhere off grid "in case they are needed". Who is going to sit idle in a pos or safe while a few others are getting kills, with or without fighter support? You may get a support fleet turn up if a fight escalates but then both sides have the option to call for backup..
I don't believe the super or carrier should be immune - hence wanting some mechanism (though its a bit arbitrary) to prevent fighters being assigned inside the POS FF radius due to a number of techniques that can be used to sit within that radius with fighters out - the common one sitting right by the control tower with the FF down and the password dialog to put the FF up open. The problem is the granularity of risk involved is somewhat low and tends to swing between the carrier being too safe or too much at risk without a good balance between which is less of a problem for cheaper stuff but a bit unfair when your talking something like a super.
Seen a few instances where they have multiple ships, sometimes cloaked on grid like a rapier, etc. sometimes warping in later - one person who does it regular with a nyx and wyvern has atleast 4-5 ships in backup. Atleast one person I know of has the carrier cloaked (due to the FF being down they can do that) and try to kite the target off the gate and webbed down before assigning fighters. |
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