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Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
1114
   |
Posted - 2015.12.26 09:34:28 -
[5131] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote:
Do we really have to repeat every single old argument every time it's not specifically mentioned in a new post?
Cloaks are imbalanced with too much action allowable for their level of safety. That has nothing to do with local.
I don't want to get too off topic on it, but we already know I am fine with local changes. I am even fine with local changes independent of cloak changes because they are not related. As previously suggested, make that thread and I'll be happy to weigh in on that subject too.
So I can D-scan...and....I can d-scan...and I can oh! Look around at an empty grid. And....and....uhhh...Oh corp chat. No I have that in station too. So I can D-scan. Wow. So totally OP. You are the one that made the argument that being cloaked=being in station. You also scream loud enough to be heard in the heavens at the slightest suggestion of any safety being removed from cloaks. That leaves traveling toward balance going in the other direction. Can you Dscan from inside a station? No. Can you Probe from inside a station? No. Do you have any tools for providing intel in any fashion from inside a station other than Local? No. If you are going to be as safe as in a station, you need to face a similar degree of impairment, and currently you do not. You are still capable of taking many actions that your opponent would wish to stop, and since you cannot be challenged in any way it is inappropriate you have that ability. And in station I have my pick of ships, modules, etc.
And? You are in dock. Harmless and completely unable to affect anything in space.
I am not the one trying to defend the safety and utility of the docked condition. You are trying to defend the safety and utility of cloaks. If they are equal, let's have them be equal. You can hunt and gather Intel while cloaked. That should not be risk free. Since we can't add risk to cloaks without giving you guys an aneurysm, we need to go the other way. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
4208
|
Posted - 2015.12.26 09:44:09 -
[5132] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:
And? You are in dock. Harmless and completely unable to affect anything in space.
Wow, not unlike a ship cloaked at a safe spot.
Isn't it time for your overly pedantic mantra, "Structures are not modules." You can even toss in that exasperated sigh too.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
1114
|
Posted - 2015.12.26 09:54:59 -
[5133] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote:
And? You are in dock. Harmless and completely unable to affect anything in space.
Wow, not unlike a ship cloaked at a safe spot. Isn't it time for your overly pedantic mantra, "Structures are not modules." You can even toss in that exasperated sigh too. Edit: Quote:
I am not the one trying to defend the safety and utility of the docked condition. You are trying to defend the safety and utility of cloaks. If they are equal, let's have them be equal. You can hunt and gather Intel while cloaked. That should not be risk free. Since we can't add risk to cloaks without giving you guys an aneurysm, we need to go the other way.
If you are hunting--i.e. moving around you are at risk. If you are gathering intel beyond local and d-scan you will be at risk. Much like a guy who is docked to gather intel has to undock and be at risk. Or to hunt he must undock and be at risk. I know, I know. Structures are not modules. And trees are not rocks and a ham sandwich is not a bowl of ice cream.
No. You successfully argued that structures are equivalent to modules.
So I say if they are equal, make them equal. I still say the cloak is too strong so long as it allows your ship any game effect beyond that of a docked ship, but since we can't add risk we must remove utility.
A competently flown cloaked ship is safe even on grid. If you could freely target it, then it could be accepted that it's also doing stuff you don't like. The overview does not need to announce its on grid, nor does it need brackets, but some visible effect and the ability to target an on grid cloak is needed to insure it does not have an unbreakable lock in combat initiative and that it remains vulnerable at all times while operational, just like it's targets. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
4209
|
Posted - 2015.12.26 10:32:31 -
[5134] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:
A competently flown cloaked ship is safe even on grid.
Same is true of interceptors, and many other ships. If I have perches around a gate I can fly a number of ships from perch-to-perch and warping out to safe spots to effectively avoid PvP except by the luckiest of bubble placement, and in LS forget even that.
A cloak makes it easier, but there is still risk that you'll land on a grid with something near you to de-cloak you are pull you into a bubble, etc.
Your claims of being immune are exaggerations....except when one is at a safe spot (i.e. off grid) and one does nothing to mitigate that immunity (fly around, drop cloak to drop probes, etc.).
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
15633
|
Posted - 2015.12.26 12:39:33 -
[5135] - Quote
Jerghul wrote:A nerf is needed when pilots can be undocked, in hostile space, afk, and safe. It goes against the most basic golden rules of EvE
No, it's just how cloaks are intended to work. It's the benefit to their otherwise crippling penalties.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Jerghul
Running with Dogs
Stella Nova
0
|
Posted - 2015.12.26 14:47:23 -
[5136] - Quote
Afk cloaky campers are just campbear fluff for players with PvE (or margin trading, or scamming) financed multiple accounts.
Which is why the devs are going to change it to render being undocked, in hostile space, afk, and safe (4/4) to at least nominally vulnerable.
" We have been doing a lot of challenging old assumptions of late, and often with delightful results. Just because something is doesn't mean it should be..."
-Team Game Of Drones (Dec 2015)
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
4213
|
Posted - 2015.12.26 18:13:41 -
[5137] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Jerghul wrote:A nerf is needed when pilots can be undocked, in hostile space, afk, and safe. It goes against the most basic golden rules of EvE
No, it's just how cloaks are intended to work. It's the benefit to their otherwise crippling penalties.
And actually it is listed as one of the few exceptions to the "Golden Rules" as put together by Akita T. So much for that.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Jerghul
Running with Dogs
Stella Nova
1
|
Posted - 2015.12.26 18:23:10 -
[5138] - Quote
Yes, a glaring, sycophantic exception to the rule Capt. Obvious. A vestige from the days when Devs cared a bit too much for the soft and touchy feelings of boorishly entitled vets (and their ever amusing threats of unsubbing EvE funded subscriptions).
Those were the days eh?
Emphasis on "were".
" We have been doing a lot of challenging old assumptions of late, and often with delightful results. Just because something is doesn't mean it should be..."
-Team Game Of Drones (Dec 2015)
|
Morrigan LeSante
Senex Legio
The OSS
937
|
Posted - 2015.12.26 19:15:43 -
[5139] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote:
A competently flown cloaked ship is safe even on grid.
Same is true of interceptors, and many other ships. If I have perches around a gate I can fly a number of ships from perch-to-perch and warping out to safe spots to effectively avoid PvP except by the luckiest of bubble placement, and in LS forget even that. A cloak makes it easier, but there is still risk that you'll land on a grid with something near you to de-cloak you are pull you into a bubble, etc. Your claims of being immune are exaggerations....except when one is at a safe spot (i.e. off grid) and one does nothing to mitigate that immunity (fly around, drop cloak to drop probes, etc.).
Of course he thinks they're immune everywhere, he's never warped to a site and be decloaked by a LCO, or a wreck, or a can. He's never seen a system where you have no warpable objects in range of a gate to dscan it (sometimes you're out of your local area and don't have BMs), never tried to avoid a cloud of enemy ships when even MWDing plated abbadons are moving faster than you.
No, he's never done any of this, that much is obvious. Just as obvious as the "make them visible in space" idea makes gate camps 100% watertight death sentences to anything not a nano interceptor. Of course anyone who has spent more than 30 minutes in a well run camp could see this from orbit, but it eludes him.
Not a single idea put forth yet doesn't utterly break other areas of the game and all for a reason he can't even decide on consistently for any period of time: "They're a threat, no wait, they're invulnerable, no wait it's too safe, hang on it's isk/hour, no wait, it's not about isk hour...I know I said that countless times but it's not that it's because invulnerable...no...wait.....DAMNIT IT'S JUST BECAUSE ALRIGHT?! STOP ASKING HARD QUESTIONS! And you lot, the people who would use and abuse my idea and are telling me why it's bad and broken just shut up, you're all just liars, you'll never use the idea to punish people relentlessly!"
That probably about covers it. |
Wander Prian
Future Corps
Sleeper Social Club
138
|
Posted - 2015.12.26 19:16:19 -
[5140] - Quote
I want to know how you got you power of telepathy? You seem to be reading the devs minds about things that nobody has said a word about in months. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
4218
|
Posted - 2015.12.26 19:28:10 -
[5141] - Quote
Wander Prian wrote:I want to know how you got you power of telepathy? You seem to be reading the devs minds about things that nobody has said a word about in months.
And if anything the few oblique comments certainly can be read going the other way, such as removing local.
Making local a delayed chat channel. Having the OA let players "claw it back" seems completely in line with these "Golden Rules" and principles they blather on about. In fact, the OA might even be better than local currently is. There have been hints that the OA will work better (depending on how it is set up) as part of a network--i.e. you might be able to see what is going on in an entire constellation vs. just the system a pilot is in. And of course it would be vulnerable to attack.
If the current state is balanced, which the Devs have basically been saying for years, then to preserve that balance in the face of change both sides have to give up something to get something.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Jerghul
Running with Dogs
Stella Nova
1
|
Posted - 2015.12.26 20:05:32 -
[5142] - Quote
Teckos
Maybe they will do something with nullsec gates and pilot id services (but they will not touch one without the other).
Wander
Project much? You post on behalf of Mike all the time.
The answer to your query rests on how development teams are organized. It gives Devs the power to act.
Its bad that an uncommitted player (the afk person) can impact so heavily on many active players.
This in addition to the philosophical issue regarding 4/4.
One downside (entitled vet complaint) is a sign of healthy game
The other downside (deflation) can be dealt with in other ways.
The only question was if devs have the courage to act. Which team organization gives (you can't scapegoat an entire team).
See my sig for a declaratory stance on courage to change.
" We have been doing a lot of challenging old assumptions of late, and often with delightful results. Just because something is doesn't mean it should be..."
-Team Game Of Drones (Dec 2015)
|
Wander Prian
Future Corps
Sleeper Social Club
139
|
Posted - 2015.12.26 20:58:01 -
[5143] - Quote
Jerghul wrote:Teckos
Maybe they will do something with nullsec gates and pilot id services (but they will not touch one without the other).
Wander
Project much? You post on behalf of Mike all the time.
The answer to your query rests on how development teams are organized. It gives Devs the power to act.
Its bad that an uncommitted player (the afk person) can impact so heavily on many active players.
This in addition to the philosophical issue regarding 4/4.
One downside (entitled vet complaint) is a sign of healthy game
The other downside (deflation) can be dealt with in other ways.
The only question was if devs have the courage to act. Which team organization gives (you can't scapegoat an entire team).
See my sig for a declaratory stance on courage to change.
Your sig only says a quote that was put to effect in one case, somehow you drew your own conclusions out of that one sentence and you use that conclusion like it's your white horse and you are wearing gleaming armor.
You still have zero evidence of anything except your imagined "findings"
Cloaks are DESIGNED to be invisible and they pay a hefty price for that ability. CCP has balanced them already. He cannot do anything to you until you can do something to him, but somehow that's not enough for you bears. No, You have to be in control in every way. You have been told how you can counter a guy cloaking in your system, but no. It has to be a direct counter to his indirect threat.
If you want to nerf cloaks, you got to accept some nerfs to your safety-nets also. Because right now, nothing is a safer place to be than sov-null (where all these complaints of AFK-cloakers come from, weird, huh?) If you want some, you need to be willing to give up something. If you come up with a reasonable and balanced idea, like what Teckos here has, I'm willing to talk about it. If all you want is more safety, I will call your ideas stupid like they are. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
15633
|
Posted - 2015.12.26 22:31:20 -
[5144] - Quote
Wander Prian wrote:
If you want to nerf cloaks, you got to accept some nerfs to your safety-nets also.
This is the part where you find out that carebears hate game balance.
Because the thought of there being ANY give and take in this discussion will send them into conniptions. They are so incomparably selfish that they think that balance only means buffing them exclusively without end.
As long as there is non consensual PvP left in this game, they will claim that it's not balanced.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Jerghul
Running with Dogs
Stella Nova
1
|
Posted - 2015.12.26 23:46:39 -
[5145] - Quote
Wander Karous Teckos
Yes, we had covered that with the posts on campbears' disgustingly bloated sense of entitlement: "Compensation, compensation"...is there never any end to whiny vet greed?
I have nothing against change personally. Limiting nullsec gate functionality and Pilot ID Services sounds like a lot of fun. Those two services being inherently linked and all.
(cue: "whine oh no doing that will break EvE").
Making afk cloaky camping (3/4) nominally at least vulnerable is the right thing to do. I am betting on the Devs doing the right thing for reasons given. Its seems you are betting they will not, but betting guardedly; hence the pre-emptive moans in this thread.
" We have been doing a lot of challenging old assumptions of late, and often with delightful results. Just because something is doesn't mean it should be..."
-Team Game Of Drones (Dec 2015)
|
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
15635
|
Posted - 2015.12.27 01:49:56 -
[5146] - Quote
Jerghul wrote:is there never any end to whiny vet greed?
That's my line.
Is there ever any end to people crying that they can't farm without risk?
Quote:
Making afk cloaky camping (3/4) nominally at least vulnerable is the right thing to do.
Nerfing cloaks in any way is the wrong thing to do.
Less safety for PvE is always the wrong answer. Especially in nullsec.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Jerghul
Running with Dogs
Stella Nova
1
|
Posted - 2015.12.27 04:11:15 -
[5147] - Quote
Karous
You should create a thread on that topic if it interests you so much. This thread is about whiny afk campbears.
" We have been doing a lot of challenging old assumptions of late, and often with delightful results. Just because something is doesn't mean it should be..."
-Team Game Of Drones (Dec 2015)
|
Wander Prian
Future Corps
Sleeper Social Club
142
|
Posted - 2015.12.27 15:12:45 -
[5148] - Quote
This thread is about a fictisious problem that would be solved by a large dose of HTFU. |
Jerghul
Running with Dogs
Stella Nova
1
|
Posted - 2015.12.27 15:42:29 -
[5149] - Quote
Yes, I really wish campbears would do exactly that.
Though not before we watch them spill their wimpy, entitled tears of course.
" We have been doing a lot of challenging old assumptions of late, and often with delightful results. Just because something is doesn't mean it should be..."
-Team Game Of Drones (Dec 2015)
|
Wander Prian
Future Corps
Sleeper Social Club
142
|
Posted - 2015.12.27 15:44:57 -
[5150] - Quote
I'm pretty sure it will end up as the nullbears going to the salt-mines |
Jerghul
Running with Dogs
Stella Nova
1
|
Posted - 2015.12.27 16:44:24 -
[5151] - Quote
Wander
Nullbears harvest moongoo. Its what you do when you want to do safe PvE in null-sec. Isk/per hour effort here is well beyond 500 mill.
The devs know what they are doing. And they are doing it.
" We have been doing a lot of challenging old assumptions of late, and often with delightful results. Just because something is doesn't mean it should be..."
-Team Game Of Drones (Dec 2015)
|
Wander Prian
Future Corps
Sleeper Social Club
143
|
Posted - 2015.12.27 16:54:37 -
[5152] - Quote
You are aware that the value of moongoo was nerfed 2 years ago and it made the big alliances have to come up with rental-plans to keep their funding up? The only people complaining about someone being in their system are sov-null ratters. If you are so worried about moongoo, go kill the POS |
Morrigan LeSante
Senex Legio
The OSS
939
|
Posted - 2015.12.27 17:10:44 -
[5153] - Quote
Wander Prian wrote:You are aware that the value of moongoo was nerfed 2 years ago and it made the big alliances have to come up with rental-plans to keep their funding up? The only people complaining about someone being in their system are sov-null ratters. If you are so worried about moongoo, go kill the POS
Yeah, apparently no-one ever fights over POS. Honestly mate, you'd be better arguing with my cat for want of an honest, intellectual discourse. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
4225
|
Posted - 2015.12.27 18:58:24 -
[5154] - Quote
Wander Prian wrote:You are aware that the value of moongoo was nerfed 2 years ago and it made the big alliances have to come up with rental-plans to keep their funding up? The only people complaining about someone being in their system are sov-null ratters. If you are so worried about moongoo, go kill the POS
The notion that moon goo is something just "nullbears" do is laughable as it has been something that lead me to lots of fleets and fights. When IT Alliance first made its move back to NS we attacked Pandemic Legions moon mining operations in Syndicate, Outer Ring, Aridia and Solitude before pushing into Fountain. Similarly with being part of the CFC/Imperium, we would go after the alliance/coalition level money makers--moons. When moon goo was nerfed and renting became a primary source of revenues for groups like PL and the Northern Coalition that was an interesting example in how mechanics changes can impact the meta game. Suddenly Goons did a 180 on rental income and created the Greater Western Co-Porsperity Sphere.
It wasn't until several years later that I actually started doing stuff with moon goo, and even then it was at the corporation level. I was helping to run a corp reaction farm. I got paid to do it, but the bulk of the ISK went to the corporation.
And the isk/hour can be reasonably high, but it is almost always done at a corporation level or even an alliance level--i.e. that ISK flows into the corporate or alliance wallets, NOT individual player wallets. Even a reaction farm has a high fixed cost (all those POS and POS modules, and the raw moon good that needs to be reacted) and there is some fairly decent amount of logistics involved as well. In short, it is something done by many different players vs. 1 player.
You can really spot the person who does not know what the **** he is talking about in this thread.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Jerghul
Running with Dogs
Stella Nova
1
|
Posted - 2015.12.27 20:59:58 -
[5155] - Quote
Teckos et al.
You get how disingenuous you are, right?
You want to null bear and camp bear with impunity, but have the gal to suggest whatever motivates Mike to support change is somehow relevant.
If you are worried about low risk isk/hr in nullsec, then direct your complaints towards moongoo and PI, not ratting in null sec which is dangerous and will remain dangerous when afk cloaky camping becomes nominally vulnerable.
People. Pfft.
" We have been doing a lot of challenging old assumptions of late, and often with delightful results. Just because something is doesn't mean it should be..."
-Team Game Of Drones (Dec 2015)
|
Teckos Pech
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
4228
|
Posted - 2015.12.28 05:29:21 -
[5156] - Quote
Jerghul wrote:Teckos et al.
You get how disingenuous you are, right?
You want to null bear and camp bear with impunity, but have the gal to suggest whatever motivates Mike to support change is somehow relevant.
If you are worried about low risk isk/hr in nullsec, then direct your complaints towards moongoo and PI, not ratting in null sec which is dangerous and will remain dangerous when afk cloaky camping becomes nominally vulnerable.
People. Pfft.
Alright let me try to get this through that depleted uranium skull of yours.
1. I have never complained about people bearing it up in NS. In fact, I have stated quite the opposite, that I want people to feel like they can go to NS and bear it up. Mine, build, invent, rat, etc. I want a NS that is vibrant and as independent of HS as possible. So on this point either you are an ignorant **** or a complete liar. Given your propensity to lie in the past I'm inclined to go with the latter, but it is up to you to clarify this one. Are you a lying ignoramus.*
2. Nowhere have I said that ISK/hour is an invalid metric. I have said it is not the only metric for many NS inhabitants. For somebody who has repeatedly insulted me for not getting "nonlinear logic" you sure do fall flat on your face like and incompetent who can't tell his ass from a hole in the ground with relatively straight forward linear logic.
Moon goo is fine. PI is fine. Ratting is fine although I'd prefer to shift ratting over from anomalies to missions for a variety of reasons I doubt you could comprehend even if I somehow managed to describe them using only three letter words.
To be quite honest I think you are a complete and deliberate liar. Even Mike doesn't seem to be paying much attention to you anymore. Yes, I have more respect for Mike than for you.** In fact, to be quite honest I suspect you being a sock puppet.
There, I have given you the attention you have been so desperate to get for the last dozen or so posts. Try to post something vaguely intelligent and I might take you off ignore.
*Some might consider these insults, but on the contrary they are merely truthful statements. Saying somebody has blond hair, or is 6 feet tall are not lies or insults if they are true. Saying a person is a liar, when it is quite demonstrable that they are indeed lying, is not an insult. It is a factual statement. In this thread and in my old AFK cloaking collection thread I have expressed these notions regarding NS repeatedly. It is not my fault that aa lying ignoramus is too lazy to check.
**To be exhaustive here, I think Mike would like my ideas regarding the OA.
- It would be a network at the constellation level
- If he moored up to it with an alt he could "see" into the entire constellation.
- Local would go delayed chat, but he could see who was who either in system or in the constellation if he used 2.
- The OA would be vulnerable to both destruction and subversion.
- The OA would allow Mike to find cloaked ships that lingered too long at a safe spot.
- The OA would alert Mike to the presence of active AFK ships.
With these changes Mike could bear it up with the best of them. Of course if I showed up and attacked his OA in some manner he'd have to defend it or risk losing his intel system.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Jerghul
Running with Dogs
Stella Nova
1
|
Posted - 2015.12.28 06:18:42 -
[5157] - Quote
What an incredibly off topic post.
Removing Concord run gates and Pilot ID Services in null sec is a EvE lore issue that is only related to the thread topic when viewed as a direct compensation for removing 4/4 by rendering afk cloaky camping at least nominally vulnerable.
Moon goo and PI are fine only if you believe that ratting and mining in nullsec are disproportionately dangerous and unrewarding.
Though it is of course entirely consistent with nullbear entitlement to think that their isk printing machines are fine, but that much poorer isk making machines of others are in danger of becoming OP.
Nowhere did I say you thought isk/hr was invalid. That it is being used as a giant orifice probe to attack Mike's possible motivations is beside the point.
You may have missed my fundamental message: I do not give a crap about what you think, nor do I need any response from you.
I am simply responding to posts here as they are created and repeated.
" We have been doing a lot of challenging old assumptions of late, and often with delightful results. Just because something is doesn't mean it should be..."
-Team Game Of Drones (Dec 2015)
|
Top Guac
Mexican Avacado Syndicate
66
|
Posted - 2015.12.28 08:24:52 -
[5158] - Quote
Jerghul wrote:Yes, I really wish campbears would do exactly that.
Though not before we watch them spill their wimpy, entitled tears of course.
AFK camping is not a problem in wormholes.
Wormhole owners do it just as much as invaders do.
Why ruin wormhole play so you can feel safe in nullsec.
Just HTFU and defeat the cloaked campers. It's not that hard. |
Jerghul
Running with Dogs
Stella Nova
1
|
Posted - 2015.12.28 09:40:36 -
[5159] - Quote
4/4 is the problem buddy. Why dont you HTFU and adapt to change and how they might possibly impact on wormhole space.
"wah Eve ruined because change to [insert thing]"
Pfft.
" We have been doing a lot of challenging old assumptions of late, and often with delightful results. Just because something is doesn't mean it should be..."
-Team Game Of Drones (Dec 2015)
|
Wander Prian
Future Corps
Sleeper Social Club
150
|
Posted - 2015.12.28 09:51:38 -
[5160] - Quote
Yet you don't do the same? Everybody else has to adapt, but you? Special snowflake much? |
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