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Jerghul
Running with Dogs
Stella Nova
1
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Posted - 2015.12.28 10:06:55 -
[5161] - Quote
Wander
Let me run some more moon goo before I get back to you on that one, mkay?
Edit: Translation into stupid: Of course I have adapted my playing style a long time ago to avoid off-peak issues with afk cloaky campers. Moon-goo transport is for example not impacted by them at all.
" We have been doing a lot of challenging old assumptions of late, and often with delightful results. Just because something is doesn't mean it should be..."
-Team Game Of Drones (Dec 2015)
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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
15638
|
Posted - 2015.12.28 10:10:45 -
[5162] - Quote
Wander Prian wrote:Yet you don't do the same? Everybody else has to adapt, but you? Special snowflake much?
Carebears in a nutshell.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Jerghul
Running with Dogs
Stella Nova
1
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Posted - 2015.12.28 10:12:16 -
[5163] - Quote
Karous
What is your poison? Moon goo, scamming, PI, or margin trading? What exactly feeds your bloated sense of entitlement?
" We have been doing a lot of challenging old assumptions of late, and often with delightful results. Just because something is doesn't mean it should be..."
-Team Game Of Drones (Dec 2015)
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Jerghul
Running with Dogs
Stella Nova
1
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Posted - 2015.12.28 10:25:27 -
[5164] - Quote
And since you insist its about me:
I muck about in null-sec with my main. I have alt support limited to a single account. Bring in shy of a billion isk/month doing stuff I think is entertaining. Which usually does not include anom ratting or belt mining which I find dull for obvious reasons (though when I do, you will find me in a pvp ready ratting ship, or in a nice T2 mining frigate).
I hold a long term, prepaid subscription and buy plex packages when I feel the urge to train alts in something or another. I play with a single screen and single computer unit because the multiboxing aesthetics do not please my sensibilities.
I am pretty much the pitch perfect EvE customer.
" We have been doing a lot of challenging old assumptions of late, and often with delightful results. Just because something is doesn't mean it should be..."
-Team Game Of Drones (Dec 2015)
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Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
1114
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Posted - 2015.12.29 03:57:31 -
[5165] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Jerghul wrote:Teckos et al.
You get how disingenuous you are, right?
You want to null bear and camp bear with impunity, but have the gal to suggest whatever motivates Mike to support change is somehow relevant.
If you are worried about low risk isk/hr in nullsec, then direct your complaints towards moongoo and PI, not ratting in null sec which is dangerous and will remain dangerous when afk cloaky camping becomes nominally vulnerable.
People. Pfft. Alright let me try to get this through that depleted uranium skull of yours. 1. I have never complained about people bearing it up in NS. In fact, I have stated quite the opposite, that I want people to feel like they can go to NS and bear it up. Mine, build, invent, rat, etc. I want a NS that is vibrant and as independent of HS as possible. So on this point either you are an ignorant **** or a complete liar. Given your propensity to lie in the past I'm inclined to go with the latter, but it is up to you to clarify this one. Are you a lying ignoramus.* 2. Nowhere have I said that ISK/hour is an invalid metric. I have said it is not the only metric for many NS inhabitants. For somebody who has repeatedly insulted me for not getting "nonlinear logic" you sure do fall flat on your face like and incompetent who can't tell his ass from a hole in the ground with relatively straight forward linear logic. Moon goo is fine. PI is fine. Ratting is fine although I'd prefer to shift ratting over from anomalies to missions for a variety of reasons I doubt you could comprehend even if I somehow managed to describe them using only three letter words. To be quite honest I think you are a complete and deliberate liar. Even Mike doesn't seem to be paying much attention to you anymore. Yes, I have more respect for Mike than for you.** In fact, to be quite honest I suspect you being a sock puppet. There, I have given you the attention you have been so desperate to get for the last dozen or so posts. Try to post something vaguely intelligent and I might take you off ignore. *Some might consider these insults, but on the contrary they are merely truthful statements. Saying somebody has blond hair, or is 6 feet tall are not lies or insults if they are true. Saying a person is a liar, when it is quite demonstrable that they are indeed lying, is not an insult. It is a factual statement. In this thread and in my old AFK cloaking collection thread I have expressed these notions regarding NS repeatedly. It is not my fault that aa lying ignoramus is too lazy to check. **To be exhaustive here, I think Mike would like my ideas regarding the OA.
- It would be a network at the constellation level
- If he moored up to it with an alt he could "see" into the entire constellation.
- Local would go delayed chat, but he could see who was who either in system or in the constellation if he used 2.
- The OA would be vulnerable to both destruction and subversion.
- The OA would allow Mike to find cloaked ships that lingered too long at a safe spot.
- The OA would alert Mike to the presence of active AFK ships.
With these changes Mike could bear it up with the best of them. Of course if I showed up and attacked his OA in some manner he'd have to defend it or risk losing his intel system.
This really needs to be it's own thread. It's impact on cloaking, AFK or otherwise is a tangent at best. However there are a number of really dealbreaking issues with it:
First- No mechanics that require an alt to be useful.
Second- Information should be relevant. Being able to drill up to the constellation level is fine, being locked into it is not
Third- Local can be placed into the OA and made vulnerable, but it should not go delayed for everyone without an alt to plug into it.
Fourth- "Too Long" is subjective. 5 minutes tops.
Fifth- This actually makes the problem worse, as I get notified that 'someone' is active somewhere in the constellation without any specific info to make it useful. Instead of a cloaker per system, you just need one per constellation.
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Teckos Pech
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
4231
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Posted - 2015.12.29 04:12:12 -
[5166] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:
This really needs to be it's own thread. It's impact on cloaking, AFK or otherwise is a tangent at best. However there are a number of really dealbreaking issues with it:
First- No mechanics that require an alt to be useful.
Second- Information should be relevant. Being able to drill up to the constellation level is fine, being locked into it is not
Third- Local can be placed into the OA and made vulnerable, but it should not go delayed for everyone without an alt to plug into it.
Fourth- "Too Long" is subjective. 5 minutes tops.
Fifth- This actually makes the problem worse, as I get notified that 'someone' is active somewhere in the constellation without any specific info to make it useful. Instead of a cloaker per system, you just need one per constellation.
No, it does not require an alt, you only get maximal benefits if somebody is moored up, but an alt or another player's character. You could still see who enters the system you are currently in. That is, you'd lose nothing in terms of what you currently have.
Information is, literally, everything. Is he AFK or not is an information problem. Intel is an information problem. Further you do not understand the "seeing into the constellation" part...you'd be able to see who is in each system in the constellation. It would be like having N alts where N = number of systems in the constellation.
Local would be delayed. The OA's intel would not be delayed.
I think 5 minutes is a bit short whatever.
See my comments above, you'd actually know somebody is active and where.
In short, in every single way it would be better than what you already have. How anyone could object to this is beyond me. Personally, I'd have CCP cancel their account, no refund, and also boot.ini their PC for good measure...but hey, that's just me.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
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Jerghul
Running with Dogs
Stella Nova
1
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Posted - 2015.12.29 05:11:15 -
[5167] - Quote
Teckos
What part of "off-topic" don't you understand?
Its a off-topic lore issue if you think Concord's gates and Pilot ID Service should be removed in k-space null-sec only.
Its an off-topic mechanics issue if you think Concord's gates and Pilot ID Service should be removed in k-space.
Its an off-topic entitlement issue if you think removing local should be compensation given for any nerf on cloaks.
" We have been doing a lot of challenging old assumptions of late, and often with delightful results. Just because something is doesn't mean it should be..."
-Team Game Of Drones (Dec 2015)
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Morrigan LeSante
Senex Legio
The OSS
941
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Posted - 2015.12.29 08:46:56 -
[5168] - Quote
Alt "requirement" doesn't really fly in sov nullsec. It's a team game people, moaning you need friends is silly.
It could as easily replace one of the many, many scouts already in play over gates.
Also, finding cloakers still breaks them on all strategic levels. If you can locate it well enough to decloak it thus forcing nothing but safespot warping to be safe then they become trivial to find on grid too and on top of that you completely destroy non-covert cloaks. Actually even covert ones become pointless as no-one needs a cloak to bounce safespots.
This is the fundamental problem, any and I do mean ANY proposal to do ANYHTING to cloaks results in one of two things:
1) They can locate covert cloaks and the entire gameplay around cloaks dies in a fire. If you can find me doing over 400m/s cloaked, nothing but nothing has a chance to live no matter what the cloak is being used for.
or
2) They cannot reasonably locate moving covert cloaks thus nothing will actually change. If you cannot find me doing 400m/s cloaked then all covert cloaking gameplay is preserved (non covert is probably broken still) and if you cannot find me, the people who are just terrified of a neut in local will still cry. |
Jerghul
Running with Dogs
Stella Nova
1
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Posted - 2015.12.29 09:52:51 -
[5169] - Quote
Morrigan
False.
Location accuracy as a function of time would not break ATK cloaked activity for as long as a dscan cue is given the cloaked ship notifying it that the hunt is on and thus triggering avoidance tactics.
" We have been doing a lot of challenging old assumptions of late, and often with delightful results. Just because something is doesn't mean it should be..."
-Team Game Of Drones (Dec 2015)
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Xcom
Quantum Vortex Battalion
38
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Posted - 2015.12.30 18:58:41 -
[5170] - Quote
Am I the only one noticing how cloaking gets indirect buffs each patch? Few patches back they added sister cov-ops ships, this patch they are increasing grid size. Also a huge part of the argument about cloaking was how you could dock and be invulnerable. Now you can't even do that as your base can get attacked and blown up.
What next? |
Teckos Pech
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
4251
|
Posted - 2015.12.30 20:47:35 -
[5171] - Quote
Xcom wrote:Am I the only one noticing how cloaking gets indirect buffs each patch? Few patches back they added sister cov-ops ships, this patch they are increasing grid size. Also a huge part of the argument about cloaking was how you could dock and be invulnerable. Now you can't even do that as your base can get attacked and blown up.
What next?
A few thoughts.
Yes, the stratios is a surprisingly strong ship for one that can fit a covert ops cloak. It can have quite a bit of tank (for a cloaking ship) field a nasty flight of drones, and if you put neuts in the highs drain a ratting ship's cap damn fast. So it is often the ship of choice for active hunting of ratting ships. It is grounds for reasonable discussion that it might need a balance pass.
However, that is for active hunters, not AFK cloaking. Many of the points regarding AFK cloaking still remain even if the cloaked ship is a stratios.
As for the new grid size, yeah that is likely to engender quite a bit of balance issues and cloaking might be one.
As for blowing up a citadel, yeah that is true you wont be "safe" indefinitely, but blowing one up is not like you come in and entosis it and watch it explode. In fact, according to this Dev Blog, the entosis link will not work on citadels. Further, while you'll die if you are docked there, your stuff in your personal hangar will be moved to a nearby NPC station or friendly citadel. It looks like CCP will still intend for these structures to be killed by fairly large fleets (well, relative to the citadel size).
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Xcom
Quantum Vortex Battalion
38
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Posted - 2015.12.30 22:53:24 -
[5172] - Quote
I believe that the current AFK cloaking mechanic does fit into the current sov meta. Issue is just how the mechanic in itself is flawed. Its silly that we need a flawed mechanic to counter sov behind enemy line cov-ops battles. I think the whole argument loops around when the AFK cloaking is justified as a broken mechanic capping and countering solo farming in null space. |
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
15641
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Posted - 2015.12.31 00:44:56 -
[5173] - Quote
Xcom wrote: I think the whole argument loops around when the AFK cloaking is justified as a broken mechanic capping and countering solo farming in null space.
It's not broken either way.
And PvE should never be safe.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Jerghul
Running with Dogs
Stella Nova
1
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Posted - 2015.12.31 02:07:56 -
[5174] - Quote
Xcom wrote:I believe that the current AFK cloaking mechanic does fit into the current sov meta. Issue is just how the mechanic in itself is flawed. Its silly that we need a flawed mechanic to counter sov behind enemy line cov-ops battles. I think the whole argument loops around when the AFK cloaking is justified as a broken mechanic capping and countering solo farming in null space.
The reason it is flawed depends on your perspective.
The mechanic allows one detached player impact on how many players go about playing Eve. So is hugely disproportionate.
The philosophy that a ship can be undocked, in hostile space, afk, and safe is bad.
The Devs have it under control though. So it will be fixed soon enough.
" We have been doing a lot of challenging old assumptions of late, and often with delightful results. Just because something is doesn't mean it should be..."
-Team Game Of Drones (Dec 2015)
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Xcom
Quantum Vortex Battalion
38
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Posted - 2015.12.31 06:24:19 -
[5175] - Quote
If ones belief is that cloaking is working as intended its obvious that any change would impact there traditional mindset regarding the matter. The dogma around the idea that cloaking is working as intended without a hard direct counter is flawed. You just shouldn't be able to be safe anywhere in space unlocked and as of citadel even docked. Not even cloaked. Clearly if you don't believe in this then you shouldn't have any problems with the idea of having ANY form of offensive ability on a cloaking ship. Yet we do ergo the **** storm we are in, 250+ pages. |
Teckos Pech
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
4253
|
Posted - 2015.12.31 06:41:33 -
[5176] - Quote
Xcom wrote:If ones belief is that cloaking is working as intended its obvious that any change would impact there traditional mindset regarding the matter. The dogma around the idea that cloaking is working as intended without a hard direct counter is flawed. You just shouldn't be able to be safe anywhere in space unlocked and as of citadel even docked. Not even cloaked. Clearly if you don't believe in this then you shouldn't have any problems with the idea of having ANY form of offensive ability on a cloaking ship. Yet we do ergo the **** storm we are in, 250+ pages.
Except if one is cloaked and "safe" then everyone in system is "safe" from that cloaked ship.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Xcom
Quantum Vortex Battalion
38
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Posted - 2015.12.31 07:23:27 -
[5177] - Quote
Except a cloaked ship do have the ability to turn of the cloak and attack its opponent when the outcome is desirable. The opposite doesn't hold. |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
1114
|
Posted - 2015.12.31 07:32:33 -
[5178] - Quote
It's an extremely broken mechanic not at all keeping with EvE's design principals.
It is however broken intentionally, and the effects have been decreed balanced by developer fiat. Apparently ships not in dock are meant to be safe from player interaction as if docked, and the ability to project infinite threat from a completely safe position is ok so long as what you are not disturbing the big alliances that can ignore this kind of stuff. |
Xcom
Quantum Vortex Battalion
38
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Posted - 2015.12.31 07:56:36 -
[5179] - Quote
Technically your no longer safe even docked after the patch.
Link
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
That leaves us with player docked inside the structure when it was lost:
The player is podded with all normal rules applying for such a case (implants are lost) and moved to his or her medical station. If the medical clone was set to the structure that just blew up, it will be moved to a medical NPC station.
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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
15642
|
Posted - 2015.12.31 08:42:37 -
[5180] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:It's an extremely broken mechanic not at all keeping with EvE's design principals.
You can repeat that lie as often as you want, but cloaks are still working as intended.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
|
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
1114
|
Posted - 2015.12.31 09:17:14 -
[5181] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote:It's an extremely broken mechanic not at all keeping with EvE's design principals.
You can repeat that lie as often as you want, but cloaks are still working as intended.
I didn't say it wasn't intended. I said it was broken. People much smarter than you have successfully argued both it's intent and the devs acknowledgement of its underlying problems.
They handwaved the problems by saying the most important thing was disrupting isk making in null, thereby implying that screwing over any non-combat professions regardless of the imbalance took a back seat to insuring gankbears were kept happy.
Unsurprising given the background of the current crop of devs and I wish you well of it. |
Jerghul
Running with Dogs
Stella Nova
1
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Posted - 2015.12.31 09:48:26 -
[5182] - Quote
Mike
I don't think anyone minds the ability to actively disrupt isk earning. Its the passive afk bit that is the problem. And I am pretty sure that afk cloaky camping is an unintended player adaptation (afk cloaky camping assumes multiple accounts, unlimited broadband, and additional hardware that would have marginalized to likelihood back in the day).
Karous
Skilled pvp players do not rely on afk cloaky camping. Its a crutch for the more impaired of campbears.
" We have been doing a lot of challenging old assumptions of late, and often with delightful results. Just because something is doesn't mean it should be..."
-Team Game Of Drones (Dec 2015)
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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
15642
|
Posted - 2015.12.31 10:03:06 -
[5183] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:
I didn't say it wasn't intended. I said it was broken.
It is intended, and it's not broken.
Quote:
They handwaved the problems by saying the most important thing was disrupting isk making in null, thereby implying that screwing over any non-combat professions regardless of the imbalance took a back seat to insuring gankbears were kept happy.
That is the most important thing. No PvE activity should ever be free of risk or uncertainty, especially in nullsec.
Your desire for safety is wrong, and it goes against the founding principles of this game. You wanting to break perfectly balanced modules and mechanics to salve your rabid risk aversion being a big example of that.
"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs.
Best Meltdown Ever.
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Jerghul
Running with Dogs
Stella Nova
1
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Posted - 2015.12.31 11:20:26 -
[5184] - Quote
Karous
Its broken for reasons given many, many times.
A game mechanic that allows an afk alt in a secondary account dictate the behaviour environment for many, many active players is broken.
A game philosophy that allows a pilot to be undocked, in hostile space, afk, and safe (the 4/4) is broken.
Afk cloaky camping was never an intended design feature, but became a multiple account player adaptation as hardware availability and internet connection quality matured.
Now any idiot and their dog can afk cloaky camp. So its time to fix it.
" We have been doing a lot of challenging old assumptions of late, and often with delightful results. Just because something is doesn't mean it should be..."
-Team Game Of Drones (Dec 2015)
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Wander Prian
Future Corps
Sleeper Social Club
152
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Posted - 2015.12.31 14:17:54 -
[5185] - Quote
You do know that the reason people camp systems is because it's a very effective way of turning local's 100% accurate intel against the people living in the system? It has nothing to do with "better internet-connections" or "multiple accounts" It's a tactic to make the intel given by local work against the people who live in the system. |
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
1114
|
Posted - 2015.12.31 14:36:54 -
[5186] - Quote
Wander Prian wrote:You do know that the reason people camp systems is because it's a very effective way of turning local's 100% accurate intel against the people living in the system? It has nothing to do with "better internet-connections" or "multiple accounts" It's a tactic to make the intel given by local work against the people who live in the system.
You do know that is an incredibly inane canned argument that seeks to conflate local and Intel with a broken mechanic.
Other than its utility in giving gankbears giggles at the expense of people flying ships that by game design rely on evasion for survival, afk camping is a symptom of a problem that if held to the same standard any other mechanic in EvE adheres to would be hotfixed out of the game within hours. |
Wander Prian
Future Corps
Sleeper Social Club
153
|
Posted - 2015.12.31 15:02:41 -
[5187] - Quote
Mike Voidstar wrote:Wander Prian wrote:You do know that the reason people camp systems is because it's a very effective way of turning local's 100% accurate intel against the people living in the system? It has nothing to do with "better internet-connections" or "multiple accounts" It's a tactic to make the intel given by local work against the people who live in the system. You do know that is an incredibly inane canned argument that seeks to conflate local and Intel with a broken mechanic. Other than its utility in giving gankbears giggles at the expense of people flying ships that by game design rely on evasion for survival, afk camping is a symptom of a problem that if held to the same standard any other mechanic in EvE adheres to would be hotfixed out of the game within hours.
No, it actually is the reason people do it. Some like the fact that they can keep people docked up and enjoy the tears, others hope the locals will get used to the name in local and just ignore it, until they get dropped on. This "issue" of AFK-cloaking is directly tied to the intel you get off local. That's why the only people who have the "problem" are those who live in systems where you can reliably think to have only friendlies in system and use local as a intel-tool. |
Jerghul
Running with Dogs
Stella Nova
1
|
Posted - 2015.12.31 17:32:33 -
[5188] - Quote
Wander
4/4 is a broken feature that will be removed. And it will be removed directly.
Afk cloaky campers are ultimately taking advantage of people paying for subscriptions and using that against them.
" We have been doing a lot of challenging old assumptions of late, and often with delightful results. Just because something is doesn't mean it should be..."
-Team Game Of Drones (Dec 2015)
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Teckos Pech
The Executives
Executive Outcomes
4253
|
Posted - 2015.12.31 17:40:29 -
[5189] - Quote
Wander Prian wrote:Mike Voidstar wrote:Wander Prian wrote:You do know that the reason people camp systems is because it's a very effective way of turning local's 100% accurate intel against the people living in the system? It has nothing to do with "better internet-connections" or "multiple accounts" It's a tactic to make the intel given by local work against the people who live in the system. You do know that is an incredibly inane canned argument that seeks to conflate local and Intel with a broken mechanic. Other than its utility in giving gankbears giggles at the expense of people flying ships that by game design rely on evasion for survival, afk camping is a symptom of a problem that if held to the same standard any other mechanic in EvE adheres to would be hotfixed out of the game within hours. No, it actually is the reason people do it. Some like the fact that they can keep people docked up and enjoy the tears, others hope the locals will get used to the name in local and just ignore it, until they get dropped on. This "issue" of AFK-cloaking is directly tied to the intel you get off local. That's why the only people who have the "problem" are those who live in systems where you can reliably think to have only friendlies in system and use local as a intel-tool.
I don't see why the notion that local provides intel that is highly accurate and it is how people know an AFK cloaker is in system is at all disputable. That is exactly how they know somebody is in local and cloaked.
Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence
So Local Chat vanished, now what?
|
Jerghul
Running with Dogs
Stella Nova
1
|
Posted - 2015.12.31 18:17:08 -
[5190] - Quote
Teckos
Actually, its paying for a subscription and logging on to the game that causes them to see afk cloaky campers.
PS
Please try to not be so incredibly disingenuous.
" We have been doing a lot of challenging old assumptions of late, and often with delightful results. Just because something is doesn't mean it should be..."
-Team Game Of Drones (Dec 2015)
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