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Ruinoso
Dispensation
0
   |
Posted - 2015.01.11 02:01:23 -
[1] - Quote
Accounting for the fact that EVE is a sandbox game, and that everyone is therefore obliged to find value in their EVE time on their own terms, I'd suggest that CCP exercise its godly dev muscles to make the rarest ores more valuableGÇöby increasing demand for them in manufacturing. Or make them rarer than they already are.
My desire for this is, I admit, selfish. As a solo player, I simply don't want to assume the risk of going after the rarest ores without the potential for a substantially-higher-than-mining-in-high-sec profit. Yes, I could adopt someone else's I-get-my-EVE-joy-by-doing-things-for-their-own-sake happiness metric (or another metric like the one just noted), and there will not doubt be some who post here (or who think about posting here) that very sermon. But I'd rather just see happen what, quite frankly, makes a great deal of sense in the first place. For there is no reason the rarest ores, which come with greater risk, should have lower market value than the most abundant ores, which come with negligible risk. After all, EVE, which is in many other respects very reflective of real-world markets and risks, where the greater the risk...the higher the payout, needn't have such a backward dynamic on this front (rare vs. abundant ores).
Or, are the rarest ores, indeed, worth more, per time invested, than the most abundant ones...and I'm just missing something? |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
29732
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Posted - 2015.01.11 02:05:39 -
[2] - Quote
You want them to be more valuable, put them on the market at a higher price and don't play 0.01 games.
Of course, that would also have to flow on to everything they are used to make, in order for everything else to be profitable too.
Overall, none and buckly's chance of happening.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
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Hengle Teron
Just Another Corp XIV
30639
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Posted - 2015.01.11 02:25:40 -
[3] - Quote
now this is a thread we haven't had in a while |
Ruinoso
Dispensation
1
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Posted - 2015.01.11 02:56:23 -
[4] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:You want them to be more valuable, put them on the market at a higher price and don't play 0.01 games.
Of course, that would also have to flow on to everything they are used to make, in order for it to all be profitable too.
Overall, none and buckly's chance of happening, but as usual, the solution to your problems doesn't lie with CCP. You want change, go and lead the change yourself. Opening up a forum discussion is "leading the change." Putting ore up on the market for the price I'd like to sell it at... that's pointless in the extreme.
"Solutions" are for problems. I'm not saying there's a problem. I'm pointing out a way the game could be improved. That's constructive. |
Vector Symian
0 Fear
2
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Posted - 2015.01.11 02:56:41 -
[5] - Quote
As a miner myself it is tempting to consider this proposal in positive light ...
and so..
plus one for me  |
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
5805
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Posted - 2015.01.11 03:08:18 -
[6] - Quote
The value of the ores is purely defined by the market. If the 'rarest' ores are not the most valuable, it's because there is far more on the market than needed. Personally I blame the way sov upgrades work on mining anomalies.
Sovereignty and Population
New Mining Mechanics
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Hippinse
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
35
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Posted - 2015.01.11 03:12:02 -
[7] - Quote
Ruinoso wrote:For there is no reason the rarest ores, which come with greater risk,
1. A "rare" commodity that respawns without fail can cease to be "rare" if the harvesting scales up.
2. If the harvesting scales up, the price will drop. (supply -vs- demand)
3. Danger to harvesters can impede scaling and cause the commodity to remain rare, and expensive.
Since #3 isn't keeping the price low, or the supply depressed, please stop talking about 'rare' and 'risk'. This problem is happening because mining anomalies in blue donuts scales well, because it's safe and efficient. (People frequently vow on these forums that null miners will *NEVER* return to ore belts because the anomalies are so much more efficient.)
Given all that, I'm open to solutions that don't negatively impact the other sandbox dwellers who aren't actively contributing to this problem. If the people doing this to themselves want to fix it by making everyone else's ores cheaper, or everyone else's manufacturing costs higher (by changing the blueprint numbers), then I'm not sure that's an optimal fix.
Maybe just remove null ore anomalies? |
Lilith Order
Space Mermaids
Somethin Awfull Forums
1
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Posted - 2015.01.11 03:18:56 -
[8] - Quote
You are confusing rare with exclusive. While there are a few minerals found in Ore exclusive to null sec, they are anything but rare.
If CCP could come up with a few new charges or ammo similar to mining crystals (they are made from pure Nocxium) but made of pure Megacyte or Zydrine, such a move would put certain minerals in a higher demand and make the Ore they come from 'more valuable'. |
Ruinoso
Dispensation
1
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Posted - 2015.01.11 03:49:34 -
[9] - Quote
Good responses thus far (mostly). This in-game description of Arkonor gets to the heart of the matter, in my opinion:
Quote:The rarest and most sought-after ore in the known universe. A sizable nugget of this can sweep anyone from rags to riches in no time.
Really? If CCP is going to define Arkonor this way, wouldn't it be in CCP's interest to make the game parameters support this statement? They can. We players (the "market") influence trade, but only within the parameters CCPs sets. I don't think their parameters contribute to the kind of "gold rush" thinking that their description would seem to generate in players inclined toward mining careers. As it is, Arkonor can't enrich a miner faster than other ores, which are infinitely abundant and far less risky to harvest. It isn't even a contest.
Perhaps there is some cogent argument against this conclusion? |
Vector Symian
0 Fear
5
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Posted - 2015.01.11 03:57:29 -
[10] - Quote
I think i have an idea
the "Rare" ores should be random drops in areas of low activity mixing a bit of exploration into mining in to the game.
CCP already posses the means to track low activity and allocate as desired
this would make the Prospect a very useful ship and encourage people to spread out more and see all of New Eden. |
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Zappity
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
1716
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Posted - 2015.01.11 04:23:57 -
[11] - Quote
I agree. CCP should change the Arkonor description. Something along the lines of, "Arkonor was historically the most valuable ore until nullsec mechanics allowed the formation of enormous fields of blue savouries to form. Following this, Arkonor was mined heavily and the marker was flooded. Miners dream of the day when some risk is returned to mining, thus increasing the value of the ore."
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
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Nolak Ataru
Incursion Osprey Replacement Fund LLC
582
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Posted - 2015.01.11 06:46:02 -
[12] - Quote
Posting in a stealth "nerf organized alliances / gimme on a silver platter" thread.
Never forget: CCP Seagull and other Devs LIED to everyone during Fanfest and EVE Vegas: "Multiboxers have nothing to worry about" and "Nothing's changing regarding multiboxing".
If CCP is willing to lie about that, what's next?
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Zappity
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
1720
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Posted - 2015.01.11 06:51:58 -
[13] - Quote
Although perhaps the price will go up just a little with the recent ban on input duplication.
Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec.
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Nolak Ataru
Incursion Osprey Replacement Fund LLC
582
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Posted - 2015.01.11 07:02:53 -
[14] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Although perhaps the price will go up just a little with the recent ban on input duplication.
Doubtful, as boxed mining was never an easy task that only used input broadcasting, despite what James 315 would want you to believe. Round Robin undock, fleet warp, alt-tab to select different lasers and F1, then lots of alt-tabbing + jetcanning.
Never forget: CCP Seagull and other Devs LIED to everyone during Fanfest and EVE Vegas: "Multiboxers have nothing to worry about" and "Nothing's changing regarding multiboxing".
If CCP is willing to lie about that, what's next?
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Darth Terona
Black Rebel Rifter Club
The Devil's Tattoo
36
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Posted - 2015.01.11 07:51:48 -
[15] - Quote
Another miner who only sees his pocket books
If ore prices go up (essentially the gold standard if eve) then everything goes up.. And you gain nothing
This is why I blow you guys up. |
Scipio Artelius
The Vendunari
End of Life
29765
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Posted - 2015.01.11 08:11:42 -
[16] - Quote
Ruinoso wrote:Opening up a forum discussion is "leading the change."
Rubbish.
You want change, then take motivation from your selfishness and get other players to agree with you and follow.
Asking for CCP to change something is not leading. That's just whining.
Come Win At Eve - Join The Vendunari
|
Yarda Black
Militaris Industries
Northern Coalition.
530
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Posted - 2015.01.11 09:01:55 -
[17] - Quote
Those ores are infact more rare. The risk factor of obtaining them (WH, nullsec & lowsec) is indeed there.
HOWEVER
Currently the risk is being managed by group play. You're safer mining that ore with a group of players such as a nullsec empire block or WH group.
Safer, not safe mind you.
What you're really asking is for CCP to compensate you for not utilising all available methods. You want them to "pay" you for not mining in a group.
As for CCP helping; I'm pretty sure a few ISBoxer miners are going down starting this year. |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
891
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Posted - 2015.01.11 09:48:38 -
[18] - Quote
they aren't the most valuable, therefor they aren't rare enough!
I'll join the chorus asking CCP, don't take my fancy names away from me!
In the name of the Limos, the Malkuth, and the Arbalest, so help me pod
- Mara Rinn
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Serene Repose
2047
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Posted - 2015.01.11 10:24:04 -
[19] - Quote
So...who's gonna "make" the ore "more valuable"?
(What is "make"? What is "valuable?" What is "is"?)
Treason never prospers. What is the reason?
Why, if it prospers, none dare call it "treason."
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Solecist Project
All Glory to the HypnoBoobs
14719
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Posted - 2015.01.11 10:59:06 -
[20] - Quote
Quote:I simply don't want to assume the risk
Let's wardec and suicide gank that bastard.
Ralph King-Griffin > **** you sol, years, ****ing years since thats happend
"I like the idea of them being spread out" - Mike Azariah, no context. ;)
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J'Poll
Green Skull LLC
5396
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Posted - 2015.01.11 11:09:31 -
[21] - Quote
Ruinoso wrote:Accounting for the fact that EVE is a sandbox game, and that everyone is therefore obliged to find value in their EVE time on their own terms, I'd suggest that CCP exercise its godly dev muscles to make the rarest ores more valuableGÇöby increasing demand for them in manufacturing. Or make them rarer than they already are.
My desire for this is, I admit, selfish. As a solo player, I simply don't want to assume the risk of going after the rarest ores without the potential for a substantially-higher-than-mining-in-high-sec profit. Yes, I could adopt someone else's I-get-my-EVE-joy-by-doing-things-for-their-own-sake happiness metric (or another metric like the one just noted), and there will not doubt be some who post here (or who think about posting here) that very sermon. But I'd rather just see happen what, quite frankly, makes a great deal of sense in the first place. For there is no reason the rarest ores, which come with greater risk, should have lower market value than the most abundant ores, which come with negligible risk. After all, EVE, which is in many other respects very reflective of real-world markets and risks, where the greater the risk...the higher the payout, needn't have such a backward dynamic on this front (rare vs. abundant ores).
Or, are the rarest ores, indeed, worth more, per time invested, than the most abundant ones...and I'm just missing something?
Uhm...NO.
The value of stuff in EVE isn't set by CCP, it is set by the players.
Want to make something more valuable, control the market (hint: Technetium Cartel ) and make it more valuable yourself.
Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy
Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded
Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club
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Mar'Dur Taren
The Copernicus Institute
52
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Posted - 2015.01.11 12:11:23 -
[22] - Quote
I've always been surprised that the low sec ores are move valuable per m3 than null sec or most high sec ore. However there is a understandable reason for it.
To mine effectively in Null you need facilities and transporters and most of all protection. I'm not talking about the constant guard of a CAP force. What I'm talking about is the buffer of 5-15 systems between you and the front lines through which hostiles need to pass. They also need to pass the watchful eyes of dozens of other pilots who report all that info in intel channels. Then there are the pilots that will sally forth to take on the intruders. The mining in a null sec system typically involves, indirectly, a lot of people. However under these circumstances its pretty safe.
Now high sec mining is no longer safe. People say all you have to do is be alert and watch local and this is true to an extent. A proper tank will defeat a single attacker. However the truth is that no matter how good your tank or how alert you are, you will at least be chased out of your belt a few times in your mining stint. The actions against miners in high sec have made those ores more valuable.
Now the last factor. The middle minerals are actually more valuable because they come from ores that you usually need to go to low sec to get. Sure you can get some from ore anomalies but not enough to support the demand. And PvPers create a huge demand for ships and materials. And this is where the problem lies. There are few ways to make low sec safe. There is no buffer of systems between you and potential enemies. You need close range scouts and a CAP force to be really safe mining in low. Lastly there is no easy way to get all your mined goods out of low. However compression arrays have made this much easier than in the past. however that means the overhead of a POS which requires a more substantial corp. If not to pay for and defend the POS, then to be taken seriously with your diplomatic efforts.
Another problem I have found in low sec is the ores don't spawn as often as the ones in high sec. Combine this with the fact you cannot upgrade the system to get more ore anomalies and you make those system pay less. If the Jaspet/Hemorphite/Hedbergite/Gneiss/Dark Ochre respawned more often then you could be constantly mining it and thus making the money worth it. At the moment the built in scarcity is making mining those ores only profitable while they exist. Then for the hours they are not there you have a deficit.
I don't know the answer to this problem. One thought is to make the Covetor/Retreiver/Mackinaw/Hulk easier to tank. Just up it enough to require teamwork from gankers. That would reduce the value of high sec minerals because there would be more produced. It may even make those ships more effective in low sec. At the moment its just not worth it for a mining corp to set up in a low sec system and mine. There is one simple reason for it. Guard duty is boring as hell. No PvPer wants to sit there watching people munch roids. Or they expect a huge fee for their effort.
Proud to be a Boffin!
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V1P3RR
Goonswarm Federation
11
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Posted - 2015.01.11 17:39:28 -
[23] - Quote
Nolak Ataru wrote:Posting in a stealth "nerf organized alliances / gimme on a silver platter" thread.
^
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Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan
7287
|
Posted - 2015.01.11 18:36:04 -
[24] - Quote
Is it ever possible that people like the OP EVER post in the right forum?
"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway
"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
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Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
19188
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Posted - 2015.01.11 19:02:51 -
[25] - Quote
Ramona McCandless wrote:Is it ever possible that people like the OP EVER post in the right forum?
There isnt a correct forum for 'miner entitlement' threads.
Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?
Vote Sabriz Adoudel for CSM 10!
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Hippinse
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
36
|
Posted - 2015.01.11 20:53:18 -
[26] - Quote
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:Ramona McCandless wrote:Is it ever possible that people like the OP EVER post in the right forum? There isnt a correct forum for 'miner entitlement' threads.
I don't think this is that. I think this is this: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=369828&find=unread (Which to me doesn't read as 'miner entitlement', but as 'prop up our rental business'.)
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Sean Dunaway
EagleClaw Dynamics
18
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Posted - 2015.01.12 22:03:22 -
[27] - Quote
Ruinoso wrote:Accounting for the fact that EVE is a sandbox game, and that everyone is therefore obliged to find value in their EVE time on their own terms, I'd suggest that CCP exercise its godly dev muscles to make the rarest ores more valuableGÇöby increasing demand for them in manufacturing. Or make them rarer than they already are.
My desire for this is, I admit, selfish. As a solo player, I simply don't want to assume the risk of going after the rarest ores without the potential for a substantially-higher-than-mining-in-high-sec profit. Yes, I could adopt someone else's I-get-my-EVE-joy-by-doing-things-for-their-own-sake happiness metric (or another metric like the one just noted), and there will not doubt be some who post here (or who think about posting here) that very sermon. But I'd rather just see happen what, quite frankly, makes a great deal of sense in the first place. For there is no reason the rarest ores, which come with greater risk, should have lower market value than the most abundant ores, which come with negligible risk. After all, EVE, which is in many other respects very reflective of real-world markets and risks, where the greater the risk...the higher the payout, needn't have such a backward dynamic on this front (rare vs. abundant ores).
Or, are the rarest ores, indeed, worth more, per time invested, than the most abundant ones...and I'm just missing something?
Selling arknor in null is the same as selling plain veldspar in a 1.0 tradehub.
Elegance Beyond Your Dreams
Salvation Behind Your Screams
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Argent Rotineque
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
8
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Posted - 2015.01.12 22:14:09 -
[28] - Quote
Ruinoso wrote:Good responses thus far (mostly). This in-game description of Arkonor gets to the heart of the matter, in my opinion: Quote:The rarest and most sought-after ore in the known universe. A sizable nugget of this can sweep anyone from rags to riches in no time. Really? If CCP is going to define Arkonor this way, wouldn't it be in CCP's interest to make the game parameters support this statement? They can. We players (the "market") influence trade, but only within the parameters CCPs sets. I don't think their parameters contribute to the kind of "gold rush" thinking that their description would seem to generate in players inclined toward mining careers. As it is, Arkonor can't enrich a miner faster than other ores, which are infinitely abundant and far less risky to harvest. It isn't even a contest. Perhaps there is some cogent argument against this conclusion?
Keep in mind that lorewise 1 ISK is a tremendous amount of money to non-capsuleers. |
Kousaka Otsu Shigure
36
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Posted - 2015.01.13 02:49:32 -
[29] - Quote
Supply and demand. You have too much of them in your region? People will price them lower just to get rid of stocks. You overmine it (its not rare if you're overmining it LOL), you're part of the problem of why its so dirt cheap. 'CCP's' vision of making industry viable in nullsec that brought changes into the system - injected some lowends into null ores, better null refine rates, compression changes - is finally bearing fruit.
What's the saying... Be careful of what you wish for?
Also, there are open threads for this...'issue',
1 thread each from Science and Industry then Market Discussions
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=379424&find=unread
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=369828&find=unread
Archiver, Software Developer and Data Slave
Current Project Status: Collating Forum Posts - First Pass
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Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
267
|
Posted - 2015.01.13 04:02:46 -
[30] - Quote
You gotta form a cartel then create artificial scarcity. Google De Beers. |
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