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Exotic Matters
Fried Liver Attack
24
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Posted - 2015.01.13 05:12:50 -
[31] - Quote
Saying the coders couldn't make mining more profitable outside highsec is not true, all it would require is that addition of ore that has a denser concentration of minerals that can only be found out there. Instead of just the regular, dense, and concentrated versions of Veldspar (and other ore) you could have some super rich ore that is like produces 1.5x the minerals of the standard version. This would give miners greater incentive to leave the perceived safety of hisec.
Supply and demand could not change this ratio of value. Undoubtedly miners would suffer most because highsec ore would decrease in value compared to goods. So be careful what you ask for. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1869
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Posted - 2015.01.13 10:44:55 -
[32] - Quote
Exotic Matters wrote:Saying the coders couldn't make mining more profitable outside highsec is not true, all it would require is that addition of ore that has a denser concentration of minerals that can only be found out there. Instead of just the regular, dense, and concentrated versions of Veldspar (and other ore) you could have some super rich ore that is like produces 1.5x the minerals of the standard version. This would give miners greater incentive to leave the perceived safety of hisec.
Supply and demand could not change this ratio of value. Undoubtedly miners would suffer most because highsec ore would decrease in value compared to goods. So be careful what you ask for. Null Sec already has this. It's called vastly greater refining rates. Which are larger than the raw numbers suggest at first glance also, since it's not the percentages relative to 100% which matter, but the relative percent difference between the two maximum refining values.
Hence why it has become more profitable to sell raw/compressed ore in high sec rather than minerals, since Null sec can export it and get greater quantities of minerals out of the ore. Which isn't great gameplay when it's only a capital investment and requires no maintenance (that wouldn't otherwise be paid anyway) PoS's would make a much stronger case for the highest refines as this then presents more value to a corp based in highsec running a pos, as well as not simply packing it down every time a war dec comes along but actually continuing to use it regardless.
Anyway, back on topic, all of the ores are available in Null Sec, so Null Sec miners can always mine the most valuable ore no matter what it happens to be. In addition there are vastly more systems in Null Sec, so there are vast quantities more of this most valuable ore available. And Null Sec can get better boosts than high sec, meaning each miner brings more in. And then they can refine them fairly locally as well by using compression plus some haulers making two or three jumps to a refining station of the compressed ore, meaning that they get more minerals than high sec can for the same ore as well.
All up this gives them significantly more value mining the same ore in Null Sec already. So any lack of profit by a Null sec miner is a failure to read the market and respond appropriately, nothing to do with game design. |
Ruinoso
Dispensation
1
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Posted - 2015.01.15 23:25:29 -
[33] - Quote
Scipio Artelius wrote:Ruinoso wrote:Opening up a forum discussion is "leading the change." Rubbish. You want change, then take motivation from your selfishness and get other players to agree with you and follow. Asking for CCP to change something is not leading. That's just whining. Rubbish. The forum is comprised of players. Players who get ideas. At least one poster has already agreed with me on a point or two.
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Hasikan Miallok
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1328
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Posted - 2015.01.15 23:50:01 -
[34] - Quote
Why not triple the demand for trit instead, its way easier to get a hold of :D |
Ruinoso
Dispensation
1
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Posted - 2015.01.15 23:55:31 -
[35] - Quote
Yarda Black wrote:Those ores are infact more rare. The risk factor of obtaining them (WH, nullsec & lowsec) is indeed there.
HOWEVER
Currently the risk is being managed by group play. You're safer mining that ore with a group of players such as a nullsec empire block or WH group. Safer, not safe mind you.
What you're really asking is for CCP to compensate you for not utilising all available methods. You want them to "pay" you for not mining in a group.
As for CCP helping; I'm pretty sure a few ISBoxer miners are going down starting this year. No, I'm not asking them to pay me for anything. I'm making a suggestion that would align the idea that CCP sells in its in-game description to the market. And I'm doing so on the basis of an ISK/hr or ISK/load basis for the ore in question, factoring in risk. |
Ruinoso
Dispensation
1
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Posted - 2015.01.15 23:57:59 -
[36] - Quote
Serene Repose wrote:So...who's gonna "make" the ore "more valuable"? (What is "make"? What is "valuable?" What is "is"?) The market value is established by the players, who respond (react?) to the parameters of the game, which are set by CCP. What I'm suggesting would clearly and directly have an effect on the value of a particular ore. Anyone who dismissed CCP's involvement in the market (and there are a number of them in this thread) is just a simpleton. They have sandboxgameitis. |
Ruinoso
Dispensation
1
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Posted - 2015.01.15 23:59:58 -
[37] - Quote
J'Poll wrote:Ruinoso wrote:Accounting for the fact that EVE is a sandbox game, and that everyone is therefore obliged to find value in their EVE time on their own terms, I'd suggest that CCP exercise its godly dev muscles to make the rarest ores more valuableGÇöby increasing demand for them in manufacturing. Or make them rarer than they already are.
My desire for this is, I admit, selfish. As a solo player, I simply don't want to assume the risk of going after the rarest ores without the potential for a substantially-higher-than-mining-in-high-sec profit. Yes, I could adopt someone else's I-get-my-EVE-joy-by-doing-things-for-their-own-sake happiness metric (or another metric like the one just noted), and there will not doubt be some who post here (or who think about posting here) that very sermon. But I'd rather just see happen what, quite frankly, makes a great deal of sense in the first place. For there is no reason the rarest ores, which come with greater risk, should have lower market value than the most abundant ores, which come with negligible risk. After all, EVE, which is in many other respects very reflective of real-world markets and risks, where the greater the risk...the higher the payout, needn't have such a backward dynamic on this front (rare vs. abundant ores).
Or, are the rarest ores, indeed, worth more, per time invested, than the most abundant ones...and I'm just missing something? Uhm...NO. The value of stuff in EVE isn't set by CCP, it is set by the players. Want to make something more valuable, control the market (hint: Technetium Cartel ) and make it more valuable yourself. See my last post... |
Ruinoso
Dispensation
1
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Posted - 2015.01.16 00:01:24 -
[38] - Quote
Ramona McCandless wrote:Is it ever possible that people like the OP EVER post in the right forum? Is it ever possible that posters post on-topic? If you don't like where I posted my thread, don't post in it. |
Echo Gengod
StrangulationE77
0
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Posted - 2015.01.16 04:27:01 -
[39] - Quote
Let's also just completely rework the market while we're at it. Might as well keep going while we're ahead.
This is just like a minimum wage debate.
By increasing the price of the minerals you increase the cost of production. Producers will compensate for this by increasing the price of their produced goods. Marketers then see this as a hit to supply/demand and adjust their own buy/sell orders as well. Essentially the end-result is the value of ISK deflates due to new standard set. The average person with 1bil will soon have 3bil worth the same as it did before, just with a larger number.
Please don't do this. It hurts us all.
Just look at post WW2 Germany. |
Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan
7367
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Posted - 2015.01.16 10:13:39 -
[40] - Quote
Ruinoso wrote:Ramona McCandless wrote:Is it ever possible that people like the OP EVER post in the right forum? Is it ever possible that posters post on-topic? If you don't like where I posted my thread, don't post in it.
Why not? Id post in it if it was in the RIGHT place too, silly boy.
But hey, like many have said, why actually do something in the game when you can ask CCP to do it for you?
Oh wait, I know
Because it wont happen
You want certain minerals to go up in price?
Starting ganking.
I can send you fits and tips if you like.
"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway
"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
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Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan
7367
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Posted - 2015.01.16 10:13:39 -
[41] - Quote
Ruinoso wrote:Ramona McCandless wrote:Is it ever possible that people like the OP EVER post in the right forum? Is it ever possible that posters post on-topic? If you don't like where I posted my thread, don't post in it.
Why not? Id post in it if it was in the RIGHT place too, silly boy.
But hey, like many have said, why actually do something in the game when you can ask CCP to do it for you?
Oh wait, I know
Because it wont happen
You want certain minerals to go up in price?
Starting ganking.
I can send you fits and tips if you like.
"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway
"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
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ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
3619
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Posted - 2015.01.16 10:14:50 -
[42] - Quote
This thread has been moved to Features & Ideas Discussion.
ISD Ezwal
Vice Admiral
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department
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Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan
7369
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Posted - 2015.01.16 10:14:58 -
[43] - Quote
Echo Gengod wrote: Just look at post WW2 Germany.
What about the richest country in Europe? Did it have an Arkonor surplus?
"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway
"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
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Ramona McCandless
The McCandless Clan
7369
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Posted - 2015.01.16 10:20:29 -
[44] - Quote
ISD Ezwal wrote:This thread has been moved to Features & Ideas Discussion.
Told you
"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway
"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
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Nina Lowel
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2015.01.16 12:33:18 -
[45] - Quote
I've learned you can't make suggestions here that might make mining more of the go-to for the main mineral acquisition of the game. In order for this to happen mission refining would need to be drastically changed so that it is far more profitable to sell moduals on the market than to recycle them. I made a suggestion to turn all minerals that were from mods into a 'recycled' grade that couldn't be used in ship production but could then be 'purified' via skills but even less of the mineral value. Ex: Recycling gives like max 75% in "recycled" minerals which can then be purified to get a max return of 50% of that 75%. This would making mining skyrocket in profit while nerfing missioning ONLY if they recycled moduals but the missioners here came out in force. |
Adrie Atticus
Shadows of Rebellion The Bastion
833
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Posted - 2015.01.16 12:36:52 -
[46] - Quote
Nina Lowel wrote:I've learned you can't make suggestions here that might make mining more of the go-to for the main mineral acquisition of the game. In order for this to happen mission refining would need to be drastically changed so that it is far more profitable to sell moduals on the market than to recycle them. I made a suggestion to turn all minerals that were from mods into a 'recycled' grade that couldn't be used in ship production but could then be 'purified' via skills but even less of the mineral value. Ex: Recycling gives like max 75% in "recycled" minerals which can then be purified to get a max return of 50% of that 75%. This would making mining skyrocket in profit while nerfing missioning ONLY if they recycled moduals but the missioners here came out in force.
Only use for mission loot is refining, especially now that they're going to neuter the meta4 gear which still holds value. Is it a big part of current income? Yea. Will it be after tiericide? No.
I can understand why mission runners would get angry over that, because the only thing more boring than ratting is mining. It's a sensible idea which would only be opposed by hisec pilots who use solely PLEX to play. |
Nina Lowel
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2015.01.16 12:43:23 -
[47] - Quote
Adrie Atticus wrote:Nina Lowel wrote:I've learned you can't make suggestions here that might make mining more of the go-to for the main mineral acquisition of the game. In order for this to happen mission refining would need to be drastically changed so that it is far more profitable to sell moduals on the market than to recycle them. I made a suggestion to turn all minerals that were from mods into a 'recycled' grade that couldn't be used in ship production but could then be 'purified' via skills but even less of the mineral value. Ex: Recycling gives like max 75% in "recycled" minerals which can then be purified to get a max return of 50% of that 75%. This would making mining skyrocket in profit while nerfing missioning ONLY if they recycled moduals but the missioners here came out in force. Only use for mission loot is refining, especially now that they're going to neuter the meta4 gear which still holds value. Is it a big part of current income? Yea. Will it be after tiericide? No. I can understand why mission runners would get angry over that, because the only thing more boring than ratting is mining. It's a sensible idea which would only be opposed by hisec pilots who use solely PLEX to play.
I think that's only true because it still gives a decent amount of isk return to recycle the modules and sell the minerals. |
Tabyll Altol
Breaking.Bad Circle-Of-Two
68
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Posted - 2015.01.16 14:05:25 -
[48] - Quote
Ruinoso wrote:Accounting for the fact that EVE is a sandbox game, and that everyone is therefore obliged to find value in their EVE time on their own terms, I'd suggest that CCP exercise its godly dev muscles to make the rarest ores more valuableGÇöby increasing demand for them in manufacturing. Or make them rarer than they already are.
My desire for this is, I admit, selfish. As a solo player, I simply don't want to assume the risk of going after the rarest ores without the potential for a substantially-higher-than-mining-in-high-sec profit. Yes, I could adopt someone else's I-get-my-EVE-joy-by-doing-things-for-their-own-sake happiness metric (or another metric like the one just noted), and there will not doubt be some who post here (or who think about posting here) that very sermon. But I'd rather just see happen what, quite frankly, makes a great deal of sense in the first place. For there is no reason the rarest ores, which come with greater risk, should have lower market value than the most abundant ores, which come with negligible risk. After all, EVE, which is in many other respects very reflective of real-world markets and risks, where the greater the risk...the higher the payout, needn't have such a backward dynamic on this front (rare vs. abundant ores).
Or, are the rarest ores, indeed, worth more, per time invested, than the most abundant ones...and I'm just missing something?
Maybe the are so cheap becuase the 0.0 is not that dangerous at all to mine. the most valuable ores are in lowsec which seem fair.
-1
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Darth Terona
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
38
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Posted - 2015.01.16 15:16:06 -
[49] - Quote
Ore price is based on mineral yield of that ore You cannot raise the price of the ore because it will raise the price of minerals within it.
Increasing the mineral yield of ores would have the opposite affect through over supply
Nearly everything in the game is made by players. Those items require minerals to build. Price is set based on mineral value of that item + cost of production + incentive...
You cannot alter the base building block of this economy (minerals via ores) without altering the cost of everything in the game.
Want more returns? Build **** with your minerals and ores yourself. Cut out the middle man. |
Lugh Crow-Slave
498
|
Posted - 2015.01.16 19:22:42 -
[50] - Quote
the value of ore is left up to us not CCP
Fuel block colors
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Ruinoso
Dispensation
3
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Posted - 2015.01.17 03:40:34 -
[51] - Quote
Ramona McCandless wrote:Ruinoso wrote:Ramona McCandless wrote:Is it ever possible that people like the OP EVER post in the right forum? Is it ever possible that posters post on-topic? If you don't like where I posted my thread, don't post in it. Why not? Id post in it if it was in the RIGHT place too, silly boy. But hey, like many have said, why actually do something in the game when you can ask CCP to do it for you? Oh wait, I know Because it wont happen You want certain minerals to go up in price? Starting ganking. I can send you fits and tips if you like. Since you have no understood the point of the thread, I bow out of your contribution to it. |
Ruinoso
Dispensation
3
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Posted - 2015.01.17 03:42:45 -
[52] - Quote
Echo Gengod wrote:Let's also just completely rework the market while we're at it. Might as well keep going while we're ahead.
This is just like a minimum wage debate.
By increasing the price of the minerals you increase the cost of production. Producers will compensate for this by increasing the price of their produced goods. Marketers then see this as a hit to supply/demand and adjust their own buy/sell orders as well. Essentially the end-result is the value of ISK deflates due to new standard set. The average person with 1bil will soon have 3bil worth the same as it did before, just with a larger number.
Please don't do this. It hurts us all.
Just look at post WW2 Germany. I don't think you understood the point of my OP. This is not about raising prices. This is about honoring the in-game description of the "rarest" ores, which are claimed to make one rich with a mere chunk of the stuff. That doesn't pan out, on either an ISK-per-hour or ISK-per-risk basis. As yet, people have argued against many a straw-man assertion, but not against the point. |
Zimmer Jones
Aliastra Gallente Federation
48
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Posted - 2015.01.17 03:56:04 -
[53] - Quote
You are correct, the description should be more vague in reference to rarity and value. Add one word and its solved; historically. No more problems, business as usual. |
Ruinoso
Dispensation
3
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Posted - 2015.01.17 05:44:45 -
[54] - Quote
Zimmer Jones wrote:You are correct, the description should be more vague in reference to rarity and value. Add one word and its solved; historically. No more problems, business as usual. That's a boring solution, but it would work. :) |
James Baboli
Ferrous Infernum
474
|
Posted - 2015.01.17 06:05:51 -
[55] - Quote
Ruinoso wrote:Zimmer Jones wrote:You are correct, the description should be more vague in reference to rarity and value. Add one word and its solved; historically. No more problems, business as usual. That's a boring solution, but it would work. :) Practical, effective and with a 100% chance of success. I approve if lore is going to be used to justify any changes.
Making battleships worth the warp
Tech 3 battleships.
Moar battleships
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James Baboli
Ferrous Infernum
474
|
Posted - 2015.01.17 06:10:54 -
[56] - Quote
Ruinoso wrote:Echo Gengod wrote:Let's also just completely rework the market while we're at it. Might as well keep going while we're ahead.
This is just like a minimum wage debate.
By increasing the price of the minerals you increase the cost of production. Producers will compensate for this by increasing the price of their produced goods. Marketers then see this as a hit to supply/demand and adjust their own buy/sell orders as well. Essentially the end-result is the value of ISK deflates due to new standard set. The average person with 1bil will soon have 3bil worth the same as it did before, just with a larger number.
Please don't do this. It hurts us all.
Just look at post WW2 Germany. I don't think you understood the point of my OP. This is not about raising prices. This is about honoring the in-game description of the "rarest" ores, which are claimed to make one rich with a mere chunk of the stuff. That doesn't pan out, on either an ISK-per-hour or ISK-per-risk basis. As yet, people have argued against many a straw-man assertion, but not against the point. It is your proposal. Thus the burden of communication falls squarely on you. Make us understand what it is you want in no uncertain terms. Be crystal clear and if necessary, use formal logic and the symbolic representation of said logic.
Making battleships worth the warp
Tech 3 battleships.
Moar battleships
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Anhenka
The Cult of Personality DARKNESS.
900
|
Posted - 2015.01.17 06:28:35 -
[57] - Quote
Nina Lowel wrote:I've learned you can't make suggestions here that might make mining more of the go-to for the main mineral acquisition of the game. In order for this to happen mission refining would need to be drastically changed so that it is far more profitable to sell modules on the market than to recycle them. I made a suggestion to turn all minerals that were from mods into a 'recycled' grade that couldn't be used in ship production but could then be 'purified' via skills but even less of the mineral value. Ex: Recycling gives like max 75% in "recycled" minerals which can then be purified to get a max return of 50% of that 75%. This would make mining skyrocket in profit while nerfing missioning ONLY if they recycled modules but the missioners here came out in force. Your idea was bad when you posted it because it was based on a spurious assumption that a large percentage of the mineral market came from reprocessed loot, when in reality, only a tiny fraction of the mineral market comes from loot.
It was not this way at one point, but then they (in no particular order)
0: removed NPC shuttle sell orders, removing the trit price ceiling 1: slightly reduced rat drops across the board. 2: removed drone poo from the game (this was absolutely massive) 3:slightly reduced it yet again. 3: removes meta 0 mods from rat drops, cutting it by a quarter or so 4: cut refining returns of modules by half.
All in all, including the drone poo removal, they probably reduced the amount of minerals coming from non mining sources by 95% or more.
But apparently, when everyone (from many walks of EVE) pointed out that reprocessed modules no longer accounted for any significant portion of the mineral flow, we were all just dirty missioners who couldn't understand a good idea when we saw it.
On a more serious note: Trit is over 6 isk a unit. I remember when it was under 3, under 4, under 5, under 6. And it is still slowly rising. You miners have it so much better than your compatriots of years past and yet all you do is continue to whine about how harsh you have it with sky high prices on the most basic and readily available mineral types. And then you wonder why people wont take you seriously. |
Ruinoso
Dispensation
3
|
Posted - 2015.01.17 06:32:58 -
[58] - Quote
James Baboli wrote:Ruinoso wrote:Echo Gengod wrote:Let's also just completely rework the market while we're at it. Might as well keep going while we're ahead.
This is just like a minimum wage debate.
By increasing the price of the minerals you increase the cost of production. Producers will compensate for this by increasing the price of their produced goods. Marketers then see this as a hit to supply/demand and adjust their own buy/sell orders as well. Essentially the end-result is the value of ISK deflates due to new standard set. The average person with 1bil will soon have 3bil worth the same as it did before, just with a larger number.
Please don't do this. It hurts us all.
Just look at post WW2 Germany. I don't think you understood the point of my OP. This is not about raising prices. This is about honoring the in-game description of the "rarest" ores, which are claimed to make one rich with a mere chunk of the stuff. That doesn't pan out, on either an ISK-per-hour or ISK-per-risk basis. As yet, people have argued against many a straw-man assertion, but not against the point. It is your proposal. Thus the burden of communication falls squarely on you. Make us understand what it is you want in no uncertain terms. Be crystal clear and if necessary, use formal logic and the symbolic representation of said logic. I was very clear in my OP. People don't read carefully. Others read off-topic responses to the OP and assume they've read the OP. Other posters' carelessness or ineptitude isn't my problem. |
Nolak Ataru
Incursion Osprey Replacement Fund LLC
585
|
Posted - 2015.01.17 06:41:02 -
[59] - Quote
You made a spacious request to increase it's use in manufacturing, which doesn't change it's rarity. Rarity is dictated by supply. You did request to limit the supply, but you failed to grasp the magnitude of nullsec alliance's mining branches, and what goes into securing a system for your miners. People have min/maxed this a long time ago.
You were told this many times, but you ignored it. |
Ruinoso
Dispensation
3
|
Posted - 2015.01.17 06:56:49 -
[60] - Quote
If the benefit-to-risk ratios of mining the most common ores in highsec vs. the rarest ores in nullsec are close to one another, are even, or are shown to favor the former, then the rarest ores in nullsec cannot reasonably be said to be all that rare, nor can they be said to be so sought after that a mere chunk of the stuff would make a pilot rich. That's the position in a nutshell. Until that is addressed, does it matter what one thinks about the mechanism proposed to affect the rarest ores' rarities? I don't think so. So far, everyone has an opinion about the latter, but few have addressed the former. |
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