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T2 Ship price inflation

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Corron	Posted - 2006.09.25 11:34:00 - [1] I see people complaining about T2 ship prices, and I admit I'm one of them. The mark-up that the builders put on these ships is, obsurd, to put it nicely. My question is though, instead of complaining about it, why not just stop buying them? The insurance doesn't come even close to covering your loss of the ship, let alone what you put on it. From my point of view, the less things sell, the lower the price drops. Price for the components haven't gone up 300%, so why have the prices on the ships? After watching the prices on t2 ships go up and up and up, I find that I really don't want to fly them anymore. Your thoughts?
Xurx Minmatar Wreckless Abandon	Posted - 2006.09.25 11:37:00 - [2] The problem is, that there is no real competition. It's only a select lucky few who hold the bpo's. Hopefully this will improve with inventions....
Miss Overlord Gallente Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2006.09.25 11:38:00 - [3] cause peeps wanna fly the best and most have the funds to buy em
Lord WarATron Amarr Out Siders Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.25 11:39:00 - [4] Edited by: Lord WarATron on 25/09/2006 11:40:24 Originally by: Corron I see people complaining about T2 ship prices, and I admit I'm one of them. The mark-up that the builders put on these ships is, obsurd, to put it nicely. My question is though, instead of complaining about it, why not just stop buying them? The insurance doesn't come even close to covering your loss of the ship, let alone what you put on it. From my point of view, the less things sell, the lower the price drops. Price for the components haven't gone up 300%, so why have the prices on the ships? After watching the prices on t2 ships go up and up and up, I find that I really don't want to fly them anymore. Your thoughts? It is the perceptoion of value - for others - it is cheaper filling out a t2 ship with faction gear that fitting out a battleship with full faction gear for a afk lvl4 grinding machine. Also here is a big big secret! T1 Ships with t2 fitout > T2 Ships with t1 fitout --- Slot 10 Akemons Modified 'Noble'Zet 5000 implant +8% Armour FREE
Rick Dentill Lynx Frontier Inc. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.25 11:39:00 - [5] /sigh People will pay because of the effort gone into training them, cos they are fun too fly. Problem with advanced stuff is you need advanced stuff to counter it. No one really wants to be the first person to gimp themselves in the face of their opponents. _______ http://x-universe.kiwi.nu/page.php?id=dd
Demonica II	Posted - 2006.09.25 11:39:00 - [6] Originally by: Corron I see people complaining about T2 ship prices, and I admit I'm one of them. The mark-up that the builders put on these ships is, obsurd, to put it nicely. My question is though, instead of complaining about it, why not just stop buying them? The insurance doesn't come even close to covering your loss of the ship, let alone what you put on it. From my point of view, the less things sell, the lower the price drops. Price for the components haven't gone up 300%, so why have the prices on the ships? After watching the prices on t2 ships go up and up and up, I find that I really don't want to fly them anymore. Your thoughts? It's not the builders who put up the insane markup, its the resellers, as soon as a t2 mod goes up on the market for less than what someone thinks it will sell for, they but it and put it back up for sale at an even higher price.
Durvaul Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2006.09.25 11:40:00 - [7] Once Kali is realsed and BPCS start getting dropped by rnd agents, the prices will drop sharply because there will be so many t2 items on market sold at lower prices, same as bs prices dropped It's jus a case of waiting fro Kali tbh
Miss Overlord Gallente Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2006.09.25 11:41:00 - [8] Originally by: Durvaul Once Kali is realsed and BPCS start getting dropped by rnd agents, the prices will drop sharply because there will be so many t2 items on market sold at lower prices, same as bs prices dropped It's jus a case of waiting fro Kali tbh the resellers will keep prices up for some time
Wild Rho Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.09.25 11:50:00 - [9] No they won't. They will be able to fight the intial surge but it will wear them down faster. Especially as people will build the items for themselves instead of paying the much higher market prices. I have the body of a supermodel. I just can't remember where I left it.
Miss Overlord Gallente Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2006.09.25 11:51:00 - [10] the items never make it onto the market that way and others keep demand up
Snowpig United Alliance Nova Republic	Posted - 2006.09.25 11:53:00 - [11] not all T2-ship prices went up - only those which far too many people want to fly. The others are becoming cheaper and cheaper. Vulture, for example, costed 130M half a year ago, now ppl selling it for 95M with additional stuff. Even Eagles are selling very bad.
Miss Overlord Gallente Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2006.09.25 11:54:00 - [12] moving to factional items - vindicators cheaper (500m v 750 earlier this year) vigilants (cruiser) have gone from 60-70m up to 110m
Admai Sket	Posted - 2006.09.25 11:55:00 - [13] Originally by: Xurx Hopefully this will improve with inventions.... Have I missed something? What's this?!
Eefrit Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.09.25 12:04:00 - [14] To anyone that takes this view, I would encourage you to read Adam Smith's "The Wealth of Nations". Prices are supply and demand, and some items have an increased demand and hence higher prices, while others have had a reduced demand and hence reduced prices. Take the 1MN Afterburner II for example. That more than halved in price over the last year, as well as many others, but modules or ships where demand is very high will always be more expensive. I am a T2 producer, and every time I list an item at a cheaper price, a single purchaser buys ALL my stock and resells it. Having producers drop their prices just makes reselling more profitable and in the end has no effect on the final price that 99% of consumers will pay. If something is too expensive buy something else. That is like complaining that Ferrari's are more expensive than Fords and believing they should be the same price. They are different and the better car costs more, same as in anything else. /Eefrit
Lenaria	Posted - 2006.09.25 12:47:00 - [15] Originally by: Eefrit If something is too expensive buy something else. That is like complaining that Ferrari's are more expensive than Fords and believing they should be the same price. They are different and the better car costs more, same as in anything else. /Eefrit This is where lies the fundamental flaw of T2 market which contradicts RL economy. The SUPPLY is NOT elastic. Not matter how high is demand and how high the prices you just cant produce more T2 items. This is rather similar to RL gems&gold bussiness - not real industrial good. This situation is very, very bad for EVE economic and general socialization as whole.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.09.25 13:03:00 - [16] I've never flown a HAC, despite being able to for ... well a while now. At 250mil, I probably won't either. As far as I'm concerned, I'm quite happy that T2 is better than T1, harder to fit and use, and costs more. That seems to be a good state of affairs to me. The place where it becomes a problem are the limited cases where T2 is _much_ better than T1. Or demand vastly outstrips supply. Specifically, T2 ships are basically better than their t1 counterparts. Especially in cases like interdictors and coverts, where there is no T1 substitute. The other place where you get 'brokenness' is T2 ammo. I don't mind that they guy running tech 2 guns is more effective, and doing more damage, at a bit better range. However the trade off is more expense (Well, some T2 are more expensive than top end named) and harder fittings. Problem is, a 425 mm II with spike can do something that you cannot compete with with Tech 1. Simply, they can outrange you by a large margin, making T2 essential unless you like losing. This to my mind, is a bad thing. I think it'll balance out somewhat - it's a problem that's been recognised, and 'invention' etc. will go a way to balancing it out. But I still think that T2 should be the luxury equivalent of T1. Better, but not automatic 'I win'.
Hertford Ars Caelestis Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.09.25 13:08:00 - [17] As more and more people acquire the skills to use T2 ships and fittings, the higher the price of said T2 ships and fittings will go. Maybe it might have been an idea to seed BPO's in proportion to the number of players who have the skills to use the T2 product. As it stands the "R&D lottery" is more like a "huge amounts of cash lottery", and tough luck if you missed it.
Martinez Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2006.09.25 13:12:00 - [18] I love how people complain about t2 prices when in fact there are only a few items that are over priced. t2 is a luxury not a basic need. You dont like hac, cap recharger, or hulk prices dont buy them. Buy something else. For thoses who dont know t2 production takes alot more effort and cost to make than just basic t1 items. Alot of t2 items sell at no profit if not at a loss. The t2 market doesnt need to be the t1 market. People just starting the game pick up the t1 production at they come in, making t2 the standard only hurts new people.
d026 Herrscher der Zeit	Posted - 2006.09.25 13:26:00 - [19] Do you really want to tell me that a CMS Launcher II for 7mil (uhh wrong they went up to 13 mil in the last 2 months) sells at production cost?:)
Viktor Fyretracker Caldari Worms Corp	Posted - 2006.09.25 13:31:00 - [20] seeding more T2 BPOs into the system would probally help some.
TuRtLe HeAd The Bratwurst Burglars	Posted - 2006.09.25 13:48:00 - [21] its only HACS that the Tech II pricing scandals affect. Tech II Heavy assualt cruisers Sell for up to 15 Times What they cost to build. In retrospect. Buy a command cruiser or a recon ship, They are Cheap as nuts. Using Minmatar ships as a quick guidline. Vagabond : 190-270 million (Big difference there) Sleipnir : 110-160 million Claymore : 75-120 million Huginn : 45 million. Its only HACs that the problem lies in . (one or two modules are affectect, i.e. BCU II or CAP RECHARGER II) Need Alot More BPO's Seeding, But its an old issue thats been there since the creation ofTech II. When Interceptors came into the game they were about 20-30 mill They plummeted to 5 mill each (About what they are worth) and Now they vary. The Build costs are very similar between most ships of the same class, Its not the Mineral/component cost that is setting the price at the moment. Its How good the Ship is. What I mean to say is, that the Vagabond cost around 70 mill a while ago, As soon as Setups etc... Stabbabond rumours started the price started to rise, without the demand ever rising. in short, a JOKE.
Arthalion Thoidon Caldari Shadowrunners	Posted - 2006.09.25 13:50:00 - [22] Originally by: d026 Do you really want to tell me that a CMS Launcher II for 7mil (uhh wrong they went up to 13 mil in the last 2 months) sells at production cost?:) Nope, I won't tell you a cruise launcher II cost 7 mil to produce, it's more like 350k. Making it probably the number 2 most profitable player produced item( talking about percentages here) in game after the cap recharger II. Before you ask, I do think that's a ridiculous amount of profit and I build the damn things. Whether or not my profits( and other t2 producer's) will go down when Kali hits, I don't know. All depends on how many people decide to go into invention instead of trying their luck in the lottery, which to the best of my knowledge will not dissappear completely.
Mi Lai Sanguine Legion Pirate Coalition	Posted - 2006.09.25 14:00:00 - [23] I wonder if those that call T2 'Luxury Items' ever used a T1 Cov Ops Frigate, T1 Interdiction Sphere Launcher or had a fight with people at over 200km. The way I see it, Faction, Cosmos and Officer are allready Luxury Items. T2 should be the standard for those that choose to specialise. Wether this is done by this 'Invention' or 'Reverse Engineering' or by seeding the T2 BPO's on the NPC market (feel free to pull out an Economist when there suddenly is a Free Market ), I dont care.
Wild Rho Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.09.25 14:05:00 - [24] Originally by: Miss Overlord the items never make it onto the market that way and others keep demand up No they don't. Demand drops becuase a portion of the potential buyers will have the ability to produce the items themselves reducing demand. People will also have the ability to try and get on the t2 market and thus increase the supply. Reduced demand + increased supply will drop the overall market prices. They won't drop to production cost like T1 due to the extra production cost inherint in invention but neither will they have the somewhat crazy price margins they do right now. I have the body of a supermodel. I just can't remember where I left it.
Splagada Minmatar Tides of Silence	Posted - 2006.09.25 14:06:00 - [25] well spend one more month in skills and fly command ships. they are better, and way cheaper ------ Tides of Silence recruiting mature players
Ore Liberator Minmatar	Posted - 2006.09.25 14:08:00 - [26] Originally by: Demonica II It's not the builders who put up the insane markup, its the resellers, as soon as a t2 mod goes up on the market for less than what someone thinks it will sell for, they but it and put it back up for sale at an even higher price. QFT
Jehle	Posted - 2006.09.25 14:56:00 - [27] Originally by: Eefrit To anyone that takes this view, I would encourage you to read Adam Smith's "The Wealth of Nations". Prices are supply and demand, and some items have an increased demand and hence higher prices, while others have had a reduced demand and hence reduced prices. /Eefrit The supply and demand relationship wasn't established until 1830's by Cournot, and then later expanded by Marshall in the 1860's. The Wealth of Nations (1776) was more about the division of labor, the invisible hand and people working for their own self interest. Perhaps an into to Micro Economics text book would better serve people with interest in this topic.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.25 14:59:00 - [28] Money still grow on trees. --------- Cruelty is God's way of showing kindness and God is kind.
DuckM4n Vo	Posted - 2006.09.25 15:04:00 - [29] It is called a monopoly, they reduce output and jack up the price. What caused this is the T2 lottery, as there are no more new T2 blueprints out there, the ones who have them now have the exclusive ability to manufacture and sell them at any price. Stop the monopolies CCP!
Selak Zorander	Posted - 2006.09.25 15:30:00 - [30] Originally by: DuckM4n Vo It is called a monopoly, they reduce output and jack up the price. What caused this is the T2 lottery, as there are no more new T2 blueprints out there, the ones who have them now have the exclusive ability to manufacture and sell them at any price. Stop the monopolies CCP! god i wish this were the only case. Unfrtunately there are a few other factors you have to realize. using HACs as an example: 1 - each type of HAC (ie - munnin) has 8 to 16 prints in existance and it takes approximately 32 hours to make one HAC if you have all the parts on hand and ready to go. That mean per print there can be at most 5 HACs made each week. 2 - there are 8 types of HACs in game. assuming that there are 16 of each HAC print, that means that each week a grand total of 640 HACs can be made. There is no increasing this. This number can not be changed. 3 - there are arround 150k paying accounts in eve right now. To even guess conservatively that only 25% of that number can fly HACs skill wise (very conservative guess i bet), that means that there are 37500 people that can or are flying HACs. at 640 HACs per week, it would take over 1 year to make one HAC for each of those pilots. Divide it out, 37500 divided by 640 is just over 58.5 meaning that it is 58.5 weeks to get one hac to each of those people. 4 - Now consider that some of those HAC prints are owned by members of alliances that feel they should not sell those ships outside thier alliance even though they can get more money doing so. Every print that is produced in that way reduces the number available to the public. meaning it takes even longer to make the HACs for the public non-alliance members of eve. Trust me the price increases are because there is FAR more demand for HACs than can be reasonably supplied by the prints available in eve. Think about that for a bit. If you dont beleive, look up the build times your self and do some math. If you dont know how, make the maret in game show all items and then go to manufacturing and look at the blueprint yourself. You can see it there with the skills required to build it, the items required to build it, and the time that is required to build at productivity lvl 0. Even if there are 32 copies of each HAC BPO in game, that is still over 6 months before 25% of the eve population can have one built for them. Do you think that everyone that flies a HAC can keep it for 6 months to a year before they need a second one?

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