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OutThisLife	Posted - 2006.09.26 06:51:00 - [1] So, I wanted to go for some PvP but I didn't want to lose too much money so I fit an Incursus like so: H: x2 light ion blasters x1 small nos M: x1 web x1 warp disrupt x1 afterburner L: x3 nanofibers I always find myself against Caracals (wtf >.>) and my corp says I should be able to take them easy with a fast Incursus, but this isn't the case.. I get to them fast, orbit around my optimal range and 'take them down' but I still get hit by missiles even going 1000+ m/s, which hurts too bad to survive. Any tips or something? Pretty annoying =[
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2006.09.26 07:20:00 - [2] Originally by: OutThisLife I always find myself against Caracals (wtf >.>) and my corp says I should be able to take them easy with a fast Incursus... That's not very nice of them. I think your only hope (if it's any hope at all) with that strategy is if they have nothing but heavy launchers. You might try a MWD--if your skills are good, the speed boost will be more than enough to make up for the signature penalty. But generally soloing a Caracal in an untanked Frigate sounds a little foolish. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Xia Winters THANATOS REEPERS	Posted - 2006.09.26 07:21:00 - [3] Don't target caracals? Use the scanner, pick your fights carefully based on what you think you can kill. --- Overkill. Because there's no prize for second place.
Apothos Loot	Posted - 2006.09.26 07:33:00 - [4] I run: highs: 3x light ions 1 Mids: AB, web, scram lows: 1x 200mm plate 1x PDU I've spared my brother who flys a caracal, and he whips my ass everytime, no matter which setup I try(w/ w/o MWD, repper, haven't tried a MWD and nanos), however that setup(and yours) should be able to take out other frigs pretty well, I don't know if you'll be able to break an tanks on cruisers with only two guns, but if you can, you should be able to take out turret cruisers np.
Setana Manoro	Posted - 2006.09.26 09:12:00 - [5] I use : 3x anode ions blasters webber, scrambler, cold-gas AB SAR I, nanofiber mod. Why this layout in the lows : - SAR you need unfortunately because it will save you a trip to the stationevery time you get scratched. - nanofiber mod helps alot in agility and speed, up to the point where you will orbit the enemy ship at a higher speed. I haven't taken Caracals in this ship because .... you can hardly find them in Gallente space, but i would stay away from them. My greatest enemy is drone skills. If the player can control 5 drones i will have a tough time taking him out - Vexor users come to mind. PS: It's a fast frig ... why tank it ? You're power is in the speed and the agility.
Apothos Loot	Posted - 2006.09.26 09:50:00 - [6] Well, I feel that the extra HP helps me more than the speed will. I can already evade medium(and small rails if I get in close) guns with my current speed, and if I do pick a fight with another frig, I feel that the extra armor will help me have the edge to outlast them long enough for my guns to do the work. Also, it helps to be able to take 2 salvos of missles instead of just 1.
General Coochie	Posted - 2006.09.26 11:53:00 - [7] Edited by: General Coochie on 26/09/2006 11:54:29 Quote: You might try a MWD--if your skills are good, the speed boost will be more than enough to make up for the signature penalty The MWD would give about the same results as an AB. According to player missile guide, damage reduction from heave missiles against 44 sig radius is 71%. If you are at ~ 2500 m/s the reduction is 73 %. This would be an incursus top speed with maxed navigation skills and two nanofibers. So you are better of with AB, you have more cap, it drains less cap, you get more CPU and pwr, same reduction in damage. And I wondered the same thing as the OP. I saw some movies of punishers, rifters taking on cruisers pretty well. I tried taking on lots of different types of cruisers and caracals most of the times, in frigs. I never got close taking them down though except some rare occational cruiser in 0.4 with mining lasers. I tried both the tristan and incursus with this char. And I also flewn the rifter a bit on another char. So far I like tristan better then incursus, overall same stats but it has one more low slot. Rifter beeing clearly better then both of them. I made some conclusions of my own so far: 1. You cant fit a nos on any of these frigs (tristan incursus), it will make you do to little damage to breake a cruiser tank. 2. And a fight vs a cruiser will last pretty long, atleast 2 min I think. Against a caracal with 5 heavy lauchers you will suffer 200 dmg every 12-15 sec or so. Wich means; you must have an armor rep or a plate. A plate might do you better then armor rep if the fight doesnt drag out on time, I find it likely it will, however with an armor rep you cant have it running to much since it will eat your cap. You say warp distrubter?, use warp scrambler it scrams better and is easier on cap. I had an idea with tristan something like was 1-2 weeks ago. 2 * ions or electrons (the difference is 3dps and if you are new to the game you might need some more pwr and cpu) Web, scram, and cap booster with 150 charges. Armor rep + 100mm plate and last slot reactor controll unit if needed but then you gotta remove 100 plate also I think. Cap booster will let you run all mods non stop. If you are not -sec yet hopefully you can get in range despite beeing without AB. I tried it vs a friend in his thorax but if hes got webber and Ab/MWD you dont stand a chance. Anyway for me it seems to be the best setup atm. I gotta get lucky with caracal opponents though, only heavy lauchers, no webber and AB/MWD. If anyone would like to comment on my thoughts plz do so. And I would really like to know how ppl in these movies manage to take caracals down. Is it a matter of finding an opponent that simply is completely wrong fitted vs frigs?
Nerdalus Minmatar DarkSide Inc	Posted - 2006.09.26 11:53:00 - [8] Originally by: OutThisLife Any tips or something? [ Train for a punisher or rifter
Setana Manoro	Posted - 2006.09.26 12:32:00 - [9] Well, I've killed up to cruisers in the Incursus setup i posted. But before engaging i evaluate the opponents offensive capabilities. Like i said, i am in gallente space and my greatest enemy are drones - i've been killed by a barge with 5 hobgoblins II :). For example most ppl i see, use rails on they're destroyers. If i see a rail-catalyst, and i feel like i can get within 10km of him, i know he is dead because he would need a webber+disruptor to stop me. If i see that they don't use antimatter ammo, i generally go straight for them - even from 20km away. My tactic is to get close, very close to the opponents, webb, scramble, deactivate AB, and let the the guns rip them. Most of the times, i don't even need to activate the repper. I haven't used a plate so far because i didn't have a need for more HP, but that may soon change as i got bored and i am willing to take on tougher opponents. In that case i may use plate+nanofiber mod, or just plate+repper if the opponent has guns with low tracking. The rifter is ... better, because it has a lower signature, higher speed, one more low-slot. Regarding damage, i think the Incursus with 3 Ions is better, but at a much closer range and with damage that is easier to tank - just kinetic and thermal.
Passcal Darksaber Technologies	Posted - 2006.09.26 12:46:00 - [10] Attacking a Caracal in a solo T1 frig is a bad idea. I fly Caracals for PVP as they are cheap to replace and can deal out quite a bit of hurt. I wouldn't fit a MWD if I was you, the sig penalty means you take about the same damage as using an AB but if you get webbed whilst using the MWD your going to take alot more damage. Also the MWDs cap penalty is crippling in a frig. Passcal out.... ---
Bill Shankly	Posted - 2006.09.26 12:51:00 - [11] Ive had a few caracels in my rifter, they were all badly fitted though (miners :S),doubt it would be a good idea to take on a decent player in a decently fitted ship.
OutThisLife	Posted - 2006.09.26 13:03:00 - [12] Thanks guys for the help. I'll plan instead of getting all excited and wanting to pewpew from now on :p
kublai Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2006.09.26 13:48:00 - [13] I fly three different races of frigates, Gallente, Caldari and minmatar, I can honestly say i've never used the gallente skills as anything as a pre-req for larger gallente ships, maybe I should give it a try? :P ...or maybe i'll fit a rifter or kestrel...ooor teach myself how to fly a punisher..oh the options! ---------------------------------- Real Gangsta
Sun Win Mutually Assured Distraction	Posted - 2006.09.26 13:49:00 - [14] Originally by: Passcal Attacking a Caracal in a solo T1 frig is a bad idea. I fly Caracals for PVP as they are cheap to replace and can deal out quite a bit of hurt. That's hilarious because Caracals are my main source of food The "Bleeder II" setup in the ships forum is an excellent way to go about committing piratey acts and the resists combined with your speed and ability to fly under guns means that caracals don't really seem that dangerous. Learn to Fly - join channel: "Eve University" or read here
Passcal Darksaber Technologies	Posted - 2006.09.26 14:29:00 - [15] Originally by: Sun Win Originally by: Passcal Attacking a Caracal in a solo T1 frig is a bad idea. I fly Caracals for PVP as they are cheap to replace and can deal out quite a bit of hurt. That's hilarious because Caracals are my main source of food The "Bleeder II" setup in the ships forum is an excellent way to go about committing piratey acts and the resists combined with your speed and ability to fly under guns means that caracals don't really seem that dangerous. You cant 'fly under guns' as the caracal doesnt usually have any and missiles will alway hit unless you are out of range. The main problem with Caracal's is that you have to know what your going to be up against, if it's frigs a full rack of assault launchers with NOS, webber and target painter. Or if anything bigger obviously a full rack of heavies. passcal out..... ---
OutThisLife	Posted - 2006.09.26 14:34:00 - [16] So what if I were to stay around 500m? Or fly right ontop of him a few seconds before he launches, and then go back out to my opt range?
Passcal Darksaber Technologies	Posted - 2006.09.26 15:34:00 - [17] Originally by: OutThisLife So what if I were to stay around 500m? Or fly right ontop of him a few seconds before he launches, and then go back out to my opt range? Missiles will still hit, you might be ale to out run the missiles but you'd have to have mad reflexes. Missiles can hit at point blank range. ---
Nagel Hane Gallente Royal Crimson Lancers	Posted - 2006.09.26 15:47:00 - [18] Edited by: Nagel Hane on 26/09/2006 15:48:28 Edited by: Nagel Hane on 26/09/2006 15:47:49 My standard setup for my pirating incursus goes somethig like this. This has soloed caracals and is capable of lots more. Light Electron Blaster II X 3 (easily can be t1) 1MN MicroWarpdrive I J5b Phased Prototype Warp Inhibitor I 'Langour' Drive Disruptor I 200mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I 50mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I 982 armor Don't need to be named, but to get 1k of armor almost they really do. Mwd in, switch the mwd off at 5k away ish, orbit at optimal, if you start losing armor faster than you can kill them, try and warp or get out of their scram range, you should have enough armor to get away.
Flax Volcanus Privateers	Posted - 2006.09.26 15:47:00 - [19] Edited by: Flax Volcanus on 26/09/2006 15:47:53 Originally by: OutThisLife So what if I were to stay around 500m? Or fly right ontop of him a few seconds before he launches, and then go back out to my opt range? Your optimal has nothing to do with his range, unless it's greater than his max. And since there are no tracking issues involved, you can undock in Jita and run right up his posterior because of the parking lot in front of the station, and you'll still get hit.
OutThisLife	Posted - 2006.09.26 16:07:00 - [20] Originally by: Passcal Missiles will still hit, you might be ale to out run the missiles but you'd have to have mad reflexes. Missiles can hit at point blank range. What would I have to look out for when trying to out run them?
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2006.09.26 16:16:00 - [21] Originally by: General Coochie Edited by: General Coochie on 26/09/2006 12:01:51 Quote: You might try a MWD--if your skills are good, the speed boost will be more than enough to make up for the signature penalty The MWD would give about the same results as an AB. According to player missile guide, damage reduction from heave missiles against 44 sig radius is 71%. If you are at ~ 2500 m/s the reduction is 73 %. This would be an incursus top speed with maxed navigation skills and two nanofibers. So you are better of with AB, you have more cap, it drains less cap, you get more CPU and pwr, same reduction in damage. Thanks for the correction. Even though I've been doing it for a while now, I'm still struggling with the AB/MWD problem myself on Rifters. The situation there is a lot different though, especially in terms of cap use. Everybody still tells me MWDs on Frigates are a big mistake soloing, but my experiences so far haven't been that clear cut. One big thing to take into account is the approach time. I doubt it's enough to swing the balance in favor of the MWD from a damage standpoint, but it certainly does prevent more targets from escaping and causes people to do some really dumb things. Another factor is the ability to escape when things go screwy. Although even then I'm still not completely sure whether MWDs are more blessing or curse. Anyway, I don't mean to hijack the topic, but the question's been on my mind alot. Thanks for taking the time to look at some of the numbers. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Shaemell Buttleson Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.09.26 16:32:00 - [22] Don't feel bad about having a hard time taking on caracals solo in a frigate. People that say it's easy to do in frigates are either talking bollox or or have only taken on pilots who have barely enough skills to barely fit a kestrel let alone a cruiser. Inti pilots have a hard time tackling them especially and if they have T2 assault launchers fitted and firing precisions its 100 times worse. Sure you can orbit at a rediculous speed and get away if needed but trust me it would be extremely hard to solo kill them. Basicly pick your targets carefully. Oh BTW anyone who says it should be easy and I'm wrong evemail ingame and we can have an arranged match somewhere. I'll even fly a t1/unamed fitted Caracal. No jamming and no warpouts and you can put whatever mods T2/named etc you like on your T1 frigate.
Shiftless	Posted - 2006.09.26 16:40:00 - [23] Originally by: Setana Manoro PS: It's a fast frig ... why tank it ? You're power is in the speed and the agility. Because the Caracal is a missle-boat and you can't dodge the missles as well as you can dodge a turret. Tank and speed. Either outrun the missle, or outrun it's explosion.
General Coochie	Posted - 2006.09.26 17:07:00 - [24] Edited by: General Coochie on 26/09/2006 17:07:43 I understand that a well PvP fitted caracal cant be beaten by a solo frigate. My idea is finding someone who is ratting bigger targets get in there during (or just after) the fight, attack and maybe get a ransom if all goes well. In other words not a very fair and even fight. But it still gets you more satisfaction then killin someone in a caracal with mining lasers :) I dont see much point discussing destroyers and frigs vs one another. Both regarding frig vs frig or vs destroyer its a matter of rocks and scissors. If destroyers got rails a close combat frigg wins if it can get close. Destroyers are better though and if not flewn by a noob they always have the upperhand. They have more of everything except a bit less speed and more sig radius (not that it matters vs a frig). If the destroyer got a MWD the frigg should have no chance if pilots have same skills and experience. However I taken out all thrashers I attacked in my rifter with my other char. Why is this? Because most ppl flying destroyers are more noob then I am. Also you dont earn anything by harassing frigs and destroyers more then the fun of it :) Attacking a cruiser can make you some isk though even a 250k ransom would be about the same amounth of isk as you risked. So I think its a good payout if you can have a setup wich makes you take cruisers more often then you loose to them.
Golden Helmet Caldari DAB RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2006.09.26 17:34:00 - [25] these incursus setups are making me cry 3x Light Ion Blaster I's w\ AM 1x MWD I 1x 7.5k scram 1x web 1x small T1 rep 1x Cap Power Relay it works better than it may seem (caracals will pose the occasional problem, it varies depending on the caracal's skills. avoud Rupture's like the plague if you even remotely think their packing nos's). of course, as with nearly all frigs, once you get webbed and\or nossed the game is up, but even when webbed i've taken stuff down with this. the key is to time your rep right and don't worry about going in to low armor, and just keep pounding untill the very last second. orbit at 500m for best results. if you have trouble fitting this, get engineering 5, weapon upgrades 5, and adv weap upgrades 3, then it fits like a glove Don't worry, your sig is safe...wait...oops. --Jorauk
Zenitram	Posted - 2006.09.26 22:26:00 - [26] The most success I have had with frig piracy is an armor-tanked Rifter. I also like to use a Merlin with 2 neutron blasters, 2 rockets, and a mag stab
Majin82 Caldari Arkhangelos Alliance Naval Intelligence Arkhangelos Command	Posted - 2006.09.26 22:44:00 - [27] The reason people talk so poorly of the Caracal is the fact that it's so easy to fly. I was flying one 1 week into starting eve. Most people take these things out with no skills or a proper fitting. I use my Caracal to kill frigates, 5 Arbalest Assault launcher and 2 light drones will make very quick work of any frigate that steps up. But I have still run into problems with teams. Solo most Caracals, even with Heavy Missiles, will shred a frigate. ------------------------------------- AANI ARCH
T'Renn	Posted - 2006.09.26 23:39:00 - [28] This is a bit presumptuous IMO. There are frigs and frig pilots who can take your big bad caracal no matter what - it's all about the skills babe. I can tank a caracal for quite a while in my punnie and kestrals don't usually stand a chance... and I use pulse weapons to boot :)
Qel Hoth Kensei Mercenaries	Posted - 2006.09.27 01:55:00 - [29] Majin, certain T1 frigs can and do kill PvP caracals. With good skills, even a Punisher pilot can keep his gun's cap use so minimal that even a single nos can provide enough cap to keep them running forever. I get ~1.081 cap/shot out of my dual lights, enough to keep them and a scrambler running indefinitely, and my cap skills arent exactly what I would call good. Plus, with a decent tank, especially 3x energized and a t2 repper, punis can take quite a bit more damage than you would expect. Just ask the caracal pilot that I soloed a few nights ago. He wasn't fitted well mind you, but I only needed the repper once every 3 salvos to keep up. He was using Arbalest standards and bloodclaw lights, IIRC.
Apothos Loot	Posted - 2006.09.27 02:30:00 - [30] I'm really doubtful that a t1 frig could take out a properly fitted pvp caracal, and I'm usually pretty optimistic about things like this.

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