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Krursk GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2006.09.28 05:57:00 - [31] I feel that bookmarks should be removed entirely. Still allow warp ins and such for sling shotting fleets and let people jettison some kind of beacon during warp to set up safe spots for gangs/corp./whatever.
Kldraina	Posted - 2006.09.28 07:42:00 - [32] Slight problem: Your solution doesn't appear to actually solve anything. Thousands of registered objects will probably produce just as much server load as thousands of bookmarks do. Since bookmarks themselves remain unchanged, the server load of bookmark sellers copying thousands of bookmarks, remains unchanged. All this really does is allow people to make good instas on less effort, which will likely result in even more instas (the primary reason I have few instas, is that I am too lazy to make them, and don't trust sellers).
Za Po Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.28 08:23:00 - [33] Originally by: Lazy8s QFT. Any distance from the gate but close enough for activation will make gate camps a sure thing. And this is bad because...?
Gibbah Caldari S-44 Tre Kroner	Posted - 2006.09.28 08:39:00 - [34] Edited by: Gibbah on 28/09/2006 08:45:35 Originally by: Krursk I feel that bookmarks should be removed entirely. Still allow warp ins and such for sling shotting fleets and let people jettison some kind of beacon during warp to set up safe spots for gangs/corp./whatever. That is perhaps something. Remove instas, replace it with some type of jettisonable beacons that you can warp to (dropable in midwarp). The beacons excist for a limited amount of time (an hour or two) and they are destroyable (kind of like jet-cans). Would this work?
Crumplecorn Gallente Aerial Boundaries Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.09.28 08:55:00 - [35] Edited by: Crumplecorn on 28/09/2006 08:55:43 Edited by: Crumplecorn on 28/09/2006 08:55:29 Originally by: Mimio Add in an obligatory grind for everyone in the game \o/ No. I mean, FFS, no. FFS. Baby Jesus is crying. FFS I'm ******* crying. This is going to give me nightmares. ---------- Nerf Caldaro!
Crumplecorn Gallente Aerial Boundaries Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.09.28 08:57:00 - [36] Originally by: Mimio Originally by: Sirial Soulfly Insta solution/thread 34912 It will work as intented, It will satisfy 90% habitants, It will not change current game mechanic, It will not add additional nonsense must-have-skill. Wrong again. Oh God. The horror. ---------- Nerf Caldaro!
Humble Voh	Posted - 2006.09.28 13:44:00 - [37] I wish someone would bother to explain what's wrong with this idea instead of yelling and flaming like 3-year-olds. I don't understand the problem. If you do, please take a moment to explain. Sounds OK to me. Especially if near-gate BMs are deleted.
Crumplecorn Gallente Aerial Boundaries Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.09.28 14:16:00 - [38] Originally by: Humble Voh I wish someone would bother to explain what's wrong with this idea instead of yelling and flaming like 3-year-olds. This is because this has been talked to death already, discussion is finite and has run out, but the flames are infinite. Originally by: Humble Voh I don't understand the problem. If you do, please take a moment to explain. Sounds OK to me. Especially if near-gate BMs are deleted. Fair enough: The main problems are: An obligatory grind: This is as bad as a time-sink skill which the OP herself says is idiotic. What is the point of implementing something that everyone must do that takes everyone the same time? Why not just take it out and save everyone the time? It's more or less accepted that any insta-replacing grind, like a skill or this registration thing, will be considered obligatory. Sitting near stuff in 0.0/lowsec: If you think just sitting near every object you want to warp to for 30 seconds is bad, consider doing it in lowsec and 0.0 where sitting still is generally a very bad idea. Especially considering the fact that you are doing it at all means you don't have instas to help you escape should someone come along. Duplication of Effort: This is kind of covered in my first point, but it bears emphasis. Not only is it a stupid grind to get your 'instas' under this system, but everyone has to do it themselves. Duplication of effort is bad in principle, but in this case it will also lead to things like corps requiring you to have instas for a certain region, which will require you to futz around there for hours 'registering' stuff. Instas will still exist: Since BMs won't be changed, people out there will still make, copy and sell them, as people with money would rather buy and use instas than sit next to every celestial object in a given region for 30 seconds. The new limits on insta-copying make this a nasty grind too, even if it does have genuine rewards. It's been said a billion times: As with most insta ideas. This doesn't refine any of them, and is worse than most. The OP suggests a risk/reward aspect: Going back to my first point, it doesn't really count as risk/reward when it is more or less mandatory. Unless you count not being at an incredible disadvantage/being allowed into corps/having completed an obligatory grind as rewards, which they aren't really. They're requirements. I felt like flaming someone: Because every once in a while I need a glorious over the top attack on a bad idea to keep me happy. Sue me. Hope that helps clear it up. ---------- Nerf Caldaro!
TuRtLe HeAd The Bratwurst Burglars	Posted - 2006.09.28 14:25:00 - [39] This solution was suggested by someone a while back, Its the only viable way forward. CAp Players Bookmarks to 500 or so. (Just a Number out of my head) Then ! This is the crucial bit. Have a Corporate Bookmark hanger ! PLayers then use Corporate instas instead of their own. Theres only 1 Set to the whole corp and everyone in the Corp uses the same ones. It Also has an Added bonus !, If a player wants to stay in NPC Corp,. he forgoes the luxury of instas.
Crumplecorn Gallente Aerial Boundaries Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.09.28 14:29:00 - [40] Originally by: TuRtLe HeAd Its the only viable way forward. Who died and made you president? ---------- Nerf Caldaro!
Mimio	Posted - 2006.09.29 05:41:00 - [41] Originally by: Kldraina Slight problem: Your solution doesn't appear to actually solve anything. Thousands of registered objects will probably produce just as much server load as thousands of bookmarks do. Since bookmarks themselves remain unchanged, the server load of bookmark sellers copying thousands of bookmarks, remains unchanged. You are wrong: It is precisely one bit to transfer between server and client per object in solar space. It is not real object(no additional manipulation in client and in server DB- no keys,no querie, etc) Of course, it creates some overhead(after jump we have to send regged objects in solar space, or after entering game all bookmarked objects), but it looks rather small nad do not decreasing game performance seriously.
Kuolematon Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United	Posted - 2006.09.29 05:53:00 - [42] Originally by: Artthana Edited by: Artthana on 27/09/2006 17:58:30 Some good ideas.. But seriously "OP".... people who live in glass houses shoud not throw stones... Dude your signature is very immature and rasist. Please change it. Unnerf Amarr!Ö "I read somewhere that Kali will be featuring turn-based combat to increase immersion." ¬ Waagaa Ktlehr
Mimio	Posted - 2006.09.29 06:59:00 - [43] Dear Crumplecorn! First of all, thank you for the comments - really useful for me. Originally by: Crumplecorn This is because this has been talked to death already, discussion is finite and has run out, but the flames are infinite. Such kind of solution was not proposed still. Quote: An obligatory grind: This is as bad as a time-sink skill which the OP herself says is idiotic. What is the point of implementing something that everyone must do that takes everyone the same time? Why not just take it out and save everyone the time? It's more or less accepted that any insta-replacing grind, like a skill or this registration thing, will be considered obligatory. 1. You wish to get smth for anything? To get bookmark you must grind. In modern time it is not the grinding, but th disaster. Try to set BM anywhere in 0.0 or try to copy regions. 2. CCP can exchange existing insta books on regged objects. Quote: Sitting near stuff in 0.0/lowsec: If you think just sitting near every object you want to warp to for 30 seconds is bad, consider doing it in lowsec and 0.0 where sitting still is generally a very bad idea. Especially considering the fact that you are doing it at all means you don't have instas to help you escape should someone come along. Wow! How long you are living in 0.0? Wow! Few months? What the great experience! Play more, please. But few hints especially for young players to save their life in dangerous space: - alignment - DT - nanofibers - gang - F10 and analyze You will be safe enough. Even alone. Even without mates. Even be young. Quote: Duplication of Effort: Answered. Quote: Instas will still exist: Since BMs won't be changed, people out there will still make, copy and sell them, Purging of all near-gate BMs was proposed. It is good idea. In the end we have to decrease CCP database overload, yea? And you do not understand that the problem is count of real objects, i.e. BM. And big counts of BM's are from the bad mechanic where to have insta on gate we often need 5 BM. And obtaining this BMs is not easy task. It is not sitting near gate in suitable ship with lots of the WCS. It is flying around in the shuttle and waiting for easy pod. Or idiotic copying in 5-BM's pack from the corp contaigner. Now 2-5 BM on every gate in solar system replaced with one flag of regsitering. Quote: as people with money would rather buy and use instas than sit next to every celestial object in a given region for 30 seconds. You are joking. Instas not the problem for char played more than three months(20kk to buy region BMs is made in hour two hours or so), the copy is the problem. Quote: It's been said a billion times: As with most insta ideas. This doesn't refine any of them, and is worse than most. Personally I like old system(you don't know this), no delays, many BM's, low prices for BM sets. But you are playing too short to understand bad tendency. BM system is becoming worse and worse. Either we will find real SOLUTION or CCP destroy gameplay. Now you must copy 5 BMs in pack. Imagine you have to copy region. Or two. And nobody knows what hell we will get in Kali. Quote: The OP suggests a risk/reward aspect: Going back to my first point, it doesn't really count as risk/reward when it is more or less mandatory. Unless you count not being at an incredible disadvantage/being allowed into corps/having completed an obligatory grind as rewards, which they aren't really. They're requirements. Instas are MANDATORY. AND REWARDABLE. In this sense registering are MANDATORY. AND REWARDABLE. What is the problem? ............................................... You missed most important POINT, I want 1. Save current gameplay. 2. Avoid new skills, new modules, new equipment having nothing to add to th game except fixing bad mechanic. 3. Do not increase gap between noobs and old players yet again.
Hugh Ruka Caldari	Posted - 2006.09.29 07:57:00 - [44] Originally by: Mimio You missed most important POINT, I want 1. Save current gameplay. 2. Avoid new skills, new modules, new equipment having nothing to add to th game except fixing bad mechanic. 3. Do not increase gap between noobs and old players yet again. LOL, all three points are missed in your proposal 1. Any change to BM system WILL change current gameplay, no matter how it is done. Players will take weeks to catch up. 2. You are adding new equipment, it's the warp to 0 km registration. 3. The gap is NOT there now. Nooba as well as vet players have to pay the same price for a bm set. However with the new system, vets have the lowsec advantage as they know how to survive, while noobs have to get the bms. You know how funny it will be when you suddelny see groups of ppl hugging gates for 30 seconds just to get shot down and never completing the registration ? As the "new" bms cannot be copied, this is a major problem. Get real please, bms are not a bad mechanic, they are a badly IMPLEMENTED mechanic. In the begining CCP made them with low player/low bm ammount expectation. This now comes to haunt them as we have 20+k ppl online almost constantly and they want to travel while not spending half their life at it. The best solution would be to make the bm requirement reverse. Give the ability to warp to gates and stations at 0km to EVERYONE and make an option to disrupt that ability. Something like we have in mobile warp disruptors, only usable also in empire. The best was done in Freelancer (I think), where you could shoot the accel gate out of energy and ppl would drop out of warp at the powered down gate. You could shoot them or they could make it to the next one and initiate new warp. For example a fake gate beacon structure ? You anchor it at a gate in some reasonable distance (like 10 km) and it makes all warp to 0km attempts target the beacon position instead of the gate. Works only up to 15 km distance (to simulate old travel to 15 km). You anchor it, set a target for it to imitate (gate, station) and wait. All folks going autopilot or clicking warp to 0km will drop out of warp around the fake beacon. You can scan for it naturaly and destroy it also. If there are 2 beacons imitating the same target, none of them will work (interference or whatever). Some rules as to if the beacon can be freely destroyed (I'd say yes, so you have to keep a shield/armor transport ship to rep it). Does not make mobile warp disruptors obsolete, as they work still and prevent folks to warp out from their field (the beacon does not prevent warping). True the beacons can be abused by griefers (like on at each gate in Jita), however they can be destroyed without any adverse effects, so anyone can kill them while protected by concord and sentries. To sum up the post, the proposed idea is crap, bm mechanic is good, only the programming/database work does not keep up with the amount of data and operations needed. We need more options to manipulate travel of other folks and intercept them that give more tactical options (like the fake beacon example). truth is, the beacon idea does NOT solve the current bookmark problem, it just creates less need to make new bookmarks for casual players in empire (80% of eve population). Originally by: JP Beauregard The experience with Exodus playtesting has scarred me for life. Those were bug-reports, not feature requests, you numbskulls....
Crumplecorn Gallente Aerial Boundaries Inc. Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.09.29 08:49:00 - [45] Originally by: Mimio You missed most important POINT, I want 1. Save current gameplay. 2. Avoid new skills, new modules, new equipment having nothing to add to th game except fixing bad mechanic. I snipped number 3 as it is irrelevant (not just to this discussion, to life in general). Both 1 and 2 are met by the 'Manual warp to 0km, autopilot warp to 15km' idea. This preserves the gameplay exactly as it is now, and gets rid of the problem. Thus, the purpose of any other idea is to change the gameplay. So I think you are confused. ---------- Nerf Caldaro!
Humble Voh	Posted - 2006.09.29 14:27:00 - [46] Crumple, you talk about this in self-contradictory terms. You say it is a grind. I think grinds are boring, unchallenging bits of gameplay which contain little or no risk but must be repeated in order to progress. You then say that hanging out near a gate in 0.0 for any length of time is very dangerous. I think that pretty clearly contradicts itself. The OP states that this requires no more modules, but then a critic decides on a whole new meaning of the word equipment. Am I just a fool for arguing with flamers? Yup. Optimism is my worst vice.
Mimio	Posted - 2006.10.05 21:40:00 - [47] Personally I would like to see old pre-RMR BM system. It was near perfect. But CCP states that the programmers cannot solve BM performance problem. Because of this sad fact I see constant degradation of BM system. Terrific lag when copied Impossibility to set BM quickly(no vector saving aftr collision with object) Limit for 5 BMs. As result noobs and alts are without BMs and BM business does ot exist. And I expect that in near future CCP will invent eve worse things. Posibly changing game mechanics. So, my proposition have to save mechanics and decrease counts of BM. Game mechanic is saved(except few discussable and tunable moments ). Its up to game designer. Noo new entities in the game. Number of BM is greatly reduced. Noob has similar position as old player(when access new terrytories) To save ivestments in the ista sets CCP may exchage instas for the automatical registration.
Locke DieDrake Port Royal Independent Kontractors Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.10.05 23:26:00 - [48] Originally by: Mimio Personally I would like to see old pre-RMR BM system. It was near perfect. But CCP states that the programmers cannot solve BM performance problem. Because of this sad fact I see constant degradation of BM system. Terrific lag when copied Impossibility to set BM quickly(no vector saving aftr collision with object) Limit for 5 BMs. As result noobs and alts are without BMs and BM business does ot exist. And I expect that in near future CCP will invent eve worse things. Posibly changing game mechanics. So, my proposition have to save mechanics and decrease counts of BM. Game mechanic is saved(except few discussable and tunable moments ). Its up to game designer. Noo new entities in the game. Number of BM is greatly reduced. Noob has similar position as old player(when access new terrytories) To save ivestments in the ista sets CCP may exchage instas for the automatical registration. Your biggest problem here is that you don't understand WHY the BM system is degrading. And the very simple asnwer is - Bms are growing at exponential rates. This is not a sustainable situation. Nor is anything else that requires that you create ANY entry in the game DB for every gate/object you wish to warp to. Do you think BMs are big files? They aren't. They are just numerous, and must be scanned/loaded on every single session change. Which is where the massive performance lag comes from. Older players talk about how they used to be able to have 100 on 100 fights without any major lag. I wonder if it occurs to any of them that when they did that, there weren't 10k BMs per pilot in the fight. I support the "warp to 0km" solution to BMs. Give 30 days notice to all players. Then delete EVERY SINGLE LAST BOOKMARK from the server. Change "warp to 15km" to "warp to 0km" or even 5km. And then block new bms from being made near gates. Problem solved. Your solution provides no fix for the performance issues. Introduces ANOTHER new time investment to the game (something we all hate). And further cripples new players over old and established players. Which means it's no good. Thanks for trying, but try again. ___________________________________________ The deeper you stick it in your vein, the deeper the thoughts there's no more pain. ___________________________________________
flummox	Posted - 2006.10.05 23:46:00 - [49] Originally by: Kuolematon Dude your signature is very immature and rasist. Please change it. your signature is immature and raCist! who are you? your dictatorial demanding attitude towards others is immature and raCist. it's so hard to find a way to not say '** off'. so, in lue of anything better to say to people like you: ** off... ... bring me my cheese... i love cheese...
Big Z213	Posted - 2006.10.06 14:25:00 - [50] Edited by: Big Z213 on 06/10/2006 14:28:09 Mimio - nice to put an idea forward and I think the theory is sound but the practice is not that far away from the current solution. You gotta hang around a celestial object for x minutes at x distance to register? Well why not overshoot by 10-15 km and set up an insta? It's not all that different from your proposal, the main difference is that instead of setting an insta you have to hang around a gate. I think this ease of insta-ing will detract from the game and would result in a warp to 0 km being implemented for everything and everyone in game... this should not be the case. BMs should be bought or made. On the plus side, your idea would certainly relieve the servers of BM copying jobs which can only be a good thing, but perhaps they need to revise how these BMs are copied. From what I gather, a BM is a coordinate. A numerical value on an x, y and z axis. 3 numbers. Why does it take so long to copy 3 numbers and maybe a system reference? I think CCP should look at why the BM copying process is so resource intensive instead of castrating players' ability to copy them. It's dealing with the symptoms and not the cause. It's dodgy long-winded code that screws the BM copying process. There's a load of database interrogation issues that need sorting and this is just one of them. I like your idea - but I prefer the current way of doing things. If we were intended to land on the object bang on then we would have warp to 0km already, but we don't. You have to earn the instas and you can survive in high sec without them. Edit - Also - if BMs become obselete as a result of this, then how would you set up a safe spot?
Cailais Amarr THE SEFRIM INSTITUTE	Posted - 2006.10.06 16:04:00 - [51] This idea any better? Linkage C. www.sefrim.com - sig design - eve mail for details
Infinity Ziona Privateers	Posted - 2006.10.06 17:01:00 - [52] They should just add the following: 1) A device that allows your ship to accelerate to something like 500% of normal speed. 2) A device that could fit on your ship so you can warp while scrambled, lets say +1 strength per level. 3) A device that gives your ship the ability to go faster and align and warp quicker. 4) Devices that help your ship survive while going 500% faster towards the gate, say, mods that repair damage, absorb damage etc. 5) A place that can be used to change your travelling devices to more appropriate devices to accomplish your goal once your in the location you want to be say for ratting, mining etc. 6) The ability to charm other players and have them mine veldspar for you. Say 1 player per level of skill. The Privateering Life
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Aeden Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2006.10.20 22:22:00 - [53] (bump sorry) What do you prefer : - wait 30 seconds at gates (even 0.0, lolzorz again) - wait 3 seconds to copy a bookmark. I can read btw This solution is clearly not valid...
DefJam101	Posted - 2006.10.20 23:22:00 - [54] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: TuRtLe HeAd Its the only viable way forward. Who died and made you president? Why George Bush of course ...although you probably could've just done a barrel roll. ***
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries	Posted - 2006.10.20 23:28:00 - [55] When I say this, I mean it with all my heart: meh. I've seen better solutions, which are more in the spirit of EVE. But then again, I'm biased- I'm one of those crazy types who don't want 0km warp ins, time-sunk to make it or not. And no, I'm not a pirate. I am, in fact, Security guy for a large mining / industrial corp, who do alot of low sec mining and hauling. I just think that 0km warp ins wern't intended for EVE- they've come about through what, essentially, is a bit of an exploit that was never addressed. Now, just because people have been allowed to use the loop-hole for 3 years, they assume it's their god given right to have it in the game. Kerazy. -----------------------------------------------
Futuri	Posted - 2006.10.20 23:35:00 - [56] Just allow manual warp in to 0 distance, without any limitations or skill requirements. Autopilot warps in 15 km away from the gate.
Ching Chongchang	Posted - 2006.10.20 23:41:00 - [57] Originally by: Infinity Ziona They should just add the following: 1) A device that allows your ship to accelerate to something like 500% of normal speed. 2) A device that could fit on your ship so you can warp while scrambled, lets say +1 strength per level. 3) A device that gives your ship the ability to go faster and align and warp quicker. 4) Devices that help your ship survive while going 500% faster towards the gate, say, mods that repair damage, absorb damage etc. 5) A place that can be used to change your travelling devices to more appropriate devices to accomplish your goal once your in the location you want to be say for ratting, mining etc. 6) The ability to charm other players and have them mine veldspar for you. Say 1 player per level of skill. This truly is revolutionary...
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries	Posted - 2006.10.20 23:45:00 - [58] Originally by: Infinity Ziona They should just add the following: 1) A device that allows your ship to accelerate to something like 500% of normal speed. 2) A device that could fit on your ship so you can warp while scrambled, lets say +1 strength per level. 3) A device that gives your ship the ability to go faster and align and warp quicker. 4) Devices that help your ship survive while going 500% faster towards the gate, say, mods that repair damage, absorb damage etc. 5) A place that can be used to change your travelling devices to more appropriate devices to accomplish your goal once your in the location you want to be say for ratting, mining etc. 6) The ability to charm other players and have them mine veldspar for you. Say 1 player per level of skill. Mised this: -----------------------------------------------

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