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Verone
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Posted - 2006.09.27 18:48:00 -
[1]
There's been a lot of talk about people wanting a capital mining ship since the launch of carriers and dreads.
It seems fair to offer them since the PvP side of the game allows the use of capital ships, but they would need to be well thought out to prevent problems with their implementation and exploitability, as well as to prevent their exploitation by macro mining teams.
They would have to abide by the same as all other capital ships bar Freighters, by not being allowed into >0.4 systems.
Basically something to support a mining op.
I had an idea today after reading a thread on General Discussion... In broad strokes... this is what I came up with :
If anything, a capital mining ship would probably be best as a vessel similar to the "Resource Controller" in Homeworld, to prevent it being exploited by AFK mining.
A large platform, player piloted, who's in space cargo access works in the same manner as a Carrier's does.
For instance, Give it 6 highslots, 3 of which it can run Strip Miners in, the same as a barge, the other three it can run gang modules with the same bonus as the Fleet Commands get to allow it to run 3 simoultaneously.
Give it 4 mids for a refining module, and other stuff a pilot might want to fit, and 4 lows for any ancilliary engineering modules people may need to fit.
Give it a cargohold the size of a jetcan (27,500m3) and no dronebay, as it would require defense.
Allow it to effectively "Anchor" itself at a belt, similar to how a dread goes into siege mode. This would take 60 seconds for anchoring and unanchoring exactly like a secure can, and anchoring would give it it's true bonuses.
For instance when anchored, this could increase it's cargo hold size to 100,000m3, however the vessel would be completely incapacitated while anchored, and would need to drop the volume in it's hold below 27,500m3 to be permitted to unanchor itself.
As well as that once anchored it would have the ability to act as a mobile refinery with it's ore refining wasteage stats depending on the individual ore refining skill levels of the player piloting it, however it could not mine and refine at the same time.
Lets call the class, manufactured by Outer Ring Excavations a "Controller" class for now, Either "Ore Controller" or "Ice Controller" depending on which of the two you were using.
Basically the scenario would be this for a large scale mining op :
The mining party arrives in the selected belt, and one of them drops a cyno field. The Ore controller jumps in and anchors itself. The barges or mining ships start to mine, passing the ore to the controller which is mining itself. It starts to fill up, so shuts it's mining beams off and waits out a five minute cooldown period. It starts to refine the ore into minerals using a midslot module which when activated refines the ore in the hold in batches of 10,000m3 a time with a 60 second cycle time.
At this point the mining op can start to mine and fill what's left of the hold minus the space for the refined minerals, or can cyno out and return to base.
Of course, it also leaves the option open for the mining party to call in haulers to pull the ore from the cargo hold of the Controller, so that it can stay in situe once full and continue to mine and support the gang. Of course, freighters would not be able to extract the ore from the hold of the Ore Controller, the largest vessel capable would be a T2 Heavy Transport.
Basically what I've gone for with this idea is something that would be a great asset to a mining team, however is not a "Win button" so to speak, as it requires planning, and defense there when being operated, as well as a lot of logistics to get in place.
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Verone
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Posted - 2006.09.27 18:49:00 -
[2]
As a skillset I think it would require a good dedicated skill sink to use the ship, as carriers and dreads do :
Ship Skill Prerequisits :
Industry V Mining Barge V Exhumers V Mining V (For Ore Controller) Ice Harvesting V (For Ice Controller) Advanced Spaceship Command V Capital Ships III
Ship Skill :
"Industrial Controller"
Base Price : 500m Multiplier : 14x
Bonuses (Per Level) :
5% Decrease in Refining Array Cycle Time 5% Decrease In Anchoring/Unanchoring Cycle Time
Refining Array Module Skill Requirement :
Astrogeology Lv V Refining V Refinery Effiency V Mining Upgrades III Scrapmetal Processing III
Obviously the skill requirements for the gang assist modules to be used would be comparitive to that of the PvP types of gang assist modules, as well as that the pilot would need the appropriate skills to use strip miners, crystals and all other modules on this ship.
As for Ship stats, I'd say it should have roughly the same resistances all round as a Tach I barge with the following capital hitpoint stats :
40,000 Structure 65,000 Armor 35,000 Shield
K... I'm done babbling...
Comments? Feedback? Modifications?
And no... I didn't mean to post this with my carebear alt... Just an Idea I had to fill a Void in the PvE side of the capital ship market
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Valator Uel
Caldari Pax Minor Asylum Confederation of Independent Corporations
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Posted - 2006.09.27 19:04:00 -
[3]
Ooo, very nicely thought through. I'm not sure about giving it mining lasers though, it could potentially become a do-it-all-yourself ship (unless it gets a crapozoid tank). I would also think that such a ship would need a fuel or chemicals of some sort to process the ores... either that or require lots and lots of cap while processing.
Dunno, not much else to add except it would be cool to have something similar. I can see corps jumping into alliance space to quickly mine out some ores and jumping back home
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Shane Asgaard
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Posted - 2006.09.27 19:07:00 -
[4]
my 2 cent:
gang modules. i don't think it should have 3 gang modules, that should be presurved for the real gang ships, but 1 gang modules for mining bonuses okay.
Refinery module personelly i dont like this idea of being able to refine wihtout the use of a pos/station.
notes i would rather like to se it as a bigger barge= a capital barge with 4-5 strips on, but thats just me
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Rahn Sohwant
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Posted - 2006.09.27 19:09:00 -
[5]
This is a little more well thought out than the propesal in the general discussion thread.
My comments:
Isn't there a (unseeded) Mobile Refinery Operation skill already? Evemon lists it as a rank 4 skill requiring Refining 5 and Industry 5. I'd work that into the skillset. Also, why Scrapmetal Processing? Why not make it the ore-specific processing skill for whatever ore you want to process?
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Valator Uel
Caldari Pax Minor Asylum Confederation of Independent Corporations
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Posted - 2006.09.27 19:11:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Shane Asgaard
Refinery module personelly i dont like this idea of being able to refine wihtout the use of a pos/station
Not if you give it eg a 35% refining like the small pos refineries. I think it's a good payoff for not needing a pos to refine (but you still need a pos/station to bring the minerals to)
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Verone
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Posted - 2006.09.27 19:11:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Valator Uel I would also think that such a ship would need a fuel or chemicals of some sort to process the ores... either that or require lots and lots of cap while processing.
Yeah, I was thinking the Refining Array module would use up a good amount of Cap, or would need some form of fuel such as Heavy Water or Nitrogen Isotopes etc to run.
I also doubt the ship would become a solo vessel considering it can't really do anything that a barge can't do while unachored.
At the same time it would only be operated in lowsec or 0.0, have absolutley no offensive systems of it's own, and would not have the slots to fit a tank strong enough to repel a full scale bombardment while being piloted solo.
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Verone
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Posted - 2006.09.27 19:15:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Verone on 27/09/2006 19:16:54
Originally by: Rahn Sohwant This is a little more well thought out than the propesal in the general discussion thread.
My comments:
Isn't there a (unseeded) Mobile Refinery Operation skill already? Evemon lists it as a rank 4 skill requiring Refining 5 and Industry 5. I'd work that into the skillset. Also, why Scrapmetal Processing? Why not make it the ore-specific processing skill for whatever ore you want to process?
Yeah there's a Mobile Refinery skill in there somewhere, not sure what it's going to be used for.
I decided on scrapmetal processing III as a required skill to keep the training times roughly inline with that of a carrier, which is a large timesink in relation to getting all the ancilliary skills together for the modules and fighters to fly it effectively.
The individual ore skills I mentioned in my OP, these would define the wastage factor of the ore you would be refining using the Refining Array module, so training them up would make the ship more effective overall, depending on what ores you refine most.
Originally by: Valator Uel
Originally by: Shane Asgaard
Refinery module personelly i dont like this idea of being able to refine wihtout the use of a pos/station
Not if you give it eg a 35% refining like the small pos refineries. I think it's a good payoff for not needing a pos to refine (but you still need a pos/station to bring the minerals to)
Exactly give it the base refining level of a low end station, then allow the individual ore skills to increase the percentage.
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Lord Artemis
Filthy Wyrm
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Posted - 2006.09.27 19:48:00 -
[9]
Verone, nice idea and well thought out. Nice idea though if anchored it would make sense I think to have a bit higher defense (increase in HP of armor to simulate "digging in" so to speak) in exchange for the ability to run away quickly. I don't think it should be a complete sitting duck nor a solid fortress.
It is weird that it came from a normally ebil dude.
I guess this is your "inner carebear" speaking? _____________________________ ... this space for rent ... |
Verone
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Posted - 2006.09.27 19:51:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Lord Artemis It is weird that it came from a normally ebil dude.
I guess this is your "inner carebear" speaking?
Inside every bastard, there's a carebear screaming to get out
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Rahn Sohwant
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Posted - 2006.09.27 19:54:00 -
[11]
ooh - digging in... How about this:
Ship must anchor to an actual asteroid. Instead of Strips and the magical swelling cargo bay, have the ship hollow out the asteroid it anchors on. Once the ore of the anchored-to rock has been refined, the ship has the cargo capacity of however big the asteroid was to start with.
I dont know, whaddya think?
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Caedicus
Minmatar InterSec
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Posted - 2006.09.27 20:57:00 -
[12]
I don't know about all the details being discussed, but I would looooove to see a capital mining ship able to equip 8 strippers! *drool*
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Maya Rkell
Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2006.09.27 21:15:00 -
[13]
Been suggested before in concept, Verone.
I still favour a carrier varient, with refining capacity rather than fighter bay and a gang mining bonus.
//Maya |
phillip duncan
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2006.09.27 22:16:00 -
[14]
That I would like to see is either a capital ship that can match a hulk (tech1 fitted)in mining rate with the abbility to support a mining upgrade module like a command ship. A reasonalbe size cargo hold say 20k for ore and suplies as well as a special hold were only ships and possibly POS components can be transported so that it can act as a mother ship. Give the abbility to use standard drones and a generas drone bay (but no bonus to drones). maybe have it need to achor before powering up its lasers or mining mods ?
Possibly two vesions, one equivent to a carrier (usable in empire as its mining rate is not to over powering given it price compared to the hulk which will out mine it) prices similar to carriers and a bigger mothership like craft with internal refinery equivent to the POS one and give it a price tag near a mothership.
The other one I would like is a hauler that you have to achor around a moon or planet with a cargo hold say half the size of a frieghter that can only be opened at a station or when achored outside a POS force feild so normal indys are still needed as part of the op. As well as room to dock a couple of barges and indys. Allow it to anchor in any system regardless of sec status. This would allow some of the systems were there is no station to be mined more effectialy. it could also have a internal refinery that operates like the POS one priced at a say 1.5 bill.
The capital ming ships I would like to see are more ming logistics ships and uber mining ships designed to suport a team of miners. They are aimed allowing more systems to be opened up.
As for macros given that you would need several skills at level 5 say the eqivent to a carrier or dreadnought in skill points to fly. It would take them some time to build the toons as well as more profitable to act like locusts. If a macro/isk farmer operation brought one how long before it became well known and dealt with.
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Xander XacXorien
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Posted - 2006.09.27 22:25:00 -
[15]
I think a capital mining ship HAS to come. For several reasons:
1) The T2 barges are not efficient enough for high sec ores. Tritanium is needed in vast amounts. 2) A player with millions of skill points shouldn't have to start thinking of macro mining in order to compete with the said macro miners. Let's make the game work against macro miners by default.
I'd limit the ship to high sec ores. The T2 ships are there for low sec ores already and plenty of ISK can be made off them. Let's see a ship designed for making ISK off high sec ores - but in low sec ??? not 100% sure about this as this negates competition with macro miners,,, but cant see any way around this.
The ship HAS to have some defensive capability. I like the carrier idea - fighter sized mining drones at a similar cost, fighters could be employed but with limitations on numbers.
The biggest bonus should be with onsite refining.Perhaps a way of amking things a bit more risky would be the limitation of having to deploy a refining module into space (costly of course). Ships able to dock - even haulier drones would be nice. This in itself would be a HUGE bonus to a fleet of miners. Haulier drones to be able to dock in freighters ? Very cool.
Drone mining rate to be linked to the players mining turret skills - capability to include mining crystals in the drones would be cool. I wouldnt like to see the current mining skills a player has built up negated by them being ignored.
People have mentioned a 'win button' for mining. However no capital ship should be brought down by any single Battleship. This ship should be capable of needing a fleet to destroy it.
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Reggie Stoneloader
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Posted - 2006.09.27 22:38:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Reggie Stoneloader on 27/09/2006 22:40:17 How would you keep macro miners from obtaining and using these ships? I'm sure they could skim a few billion isk from their reserves to obtain one. How frequently are such accounts banned? I've seen year-old macro miners.
How about if the ship interacts with a given asteroid, rather than mining ore gradually? Let it devour one asteroid per 20-minute cycle, regardless of the asteroid's size or value, and yield 80% of the ore content of its target. It could chomp on veldspar moons for a huge profit, but using it to snap up little rocks would be inefficient.
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Rahn Sohwant
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Posted - 2006.09.27 23:02:00 -
[17]
if the macrominers want to operate it in <=0.4, they will be killable. fine with me.
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Xander XacXorien
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Posted - 2006.09.27 23:05:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Reggie Stoneloader Edited by: Reggie Stoneloader on 27/09/2006 22:40:17 How would you keep macro miners from obtaining and using these ships? I'm sure they could skim a few billion isk from their reserves to obtain one. How frequently are such accounts banned? I've seen year-old macro miners.
How about if the ship interacts with a given asteroid, rather than mining ore gradually? Let it devour one asteroid per 20-minute cycle, regardless of the asteroid's size or value, and yield 80% of the ore content of its target. It could chomp on veldspar moons for a huge profit, but using it to snap up little rocks would be inefficient.
I'm not sure you can stop macroers from doing anything in the game at the moment. The only short term solution has been to set skills high enough that it becomes unfeasible for existing macroers to gain access to the ships.
The writing is on the wall. Without a programming solution is found macroing will come to missioning and PvP if it hasnt already.
I think having a long cycle time is playing into the macro's hands. Far better to make a complex system requiring plenty of player interaction to limit the ability of any macro. Perhaps link in efficiency of roid retrieval to prior surveying player interaction ? Player scans the roids and prioritises those most efficient and specifies the crystals to use etc - like creating a plan of mining. I dont know what information a macro can pickup but if a survey cannot be picked up then this would be ideal in limiting the use of this ship via a macro.
The more complex the macro the less chars per computer to run the macro I would guess.
I do like the idea of the size of the roid being dependant of the efficiency though. That's cool and would help reduce the effect on noobs - if it was a high sec ship of course.
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Karash Amerius
Amarr O.E.C
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Posted - 2006.09.27 23:08:00 -
[19]
I think there should be a push for well thought out industrial and logistical capital class ships. The one thing I dont like about the idea specifically in the OP is the cargo expansion. Dont like this, but if we had capital ship modules that could refine ore (and in the future salvage), that would be a start.
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Sarf
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Posted - 2006.09.28 01:56:00 -
[20]
i agree with xander.
There needs to be a High sec mining barge. Personally i would like to see a carrior sized ship, can Jump in high sec space, uses its high slots for tractor beams, and weapons...
All mining is done with specialized mining drones and can use fighters for defense. Give it bonuses for drone yield and Strip miners, max 3 or 4 strip miners.
200k of hold space, can dock, can't use gates though.
It should not have any refining capability what so ever. It has stations all over so why bother. It should also not be able to scoop up cans. It warps out mines, warps back.
It should have the armor and shields of a battle ship, so very weak.
for low sec space have a version, that can't use the fighter sized mining drones, or strip[ miners, but can use the gang modules, it has the refinery on board, and has defenses like a carrier. It can't jump to high sec space. It is a low sec mining operation support ship.
while the first one is a ship optimized for Bulk mining.
0.2 isk of thought
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Reggie Stoneloader
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Posted - 2006.09.28 02:11:00 -
[21]
Wait, so is this an idea for a high-sec ore reaper (I'm against that for macro mining and newb-hosing reasons), or for a low-sec capital ship that can serve a heavy support and command role in mining operations (a valuable asset to industrial corporations)?
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franny
Phoenix Knights
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Posted - 2006.09.28 04:58:00 -
[22]
Edited by: franny on 28/09/2006 05:00:18 instead of +3 command modules, give it 1 slot for them(the mining director ones)
give it a bonus to low end ores instead of the other 2 command mods i'm sure we've all seen veldspar roids the size of planets, give the ship a +10-20% per lvl increase in yields when mining veld/scord/whatever, but not the high end ores(crok/bist/ark/merx, and some of the inbetween ones) or give it the ability to fir 1 command/3 'command style' mining mods that increase the yield of ores BUT again limit them to the low end ores(that make sense?)
make it low sec/no sec only, cyno field or not needs to be low sec to limit macromining and to keep from screwing the real noobs, plus makes em killable
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Maya Rkell
Forsaken Empire
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Posted - 2006.09.28 12:43:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Reggie Stoneloader How would you keep macro miners from obtaining and using these ships?
You don't. But not giving it inherent mining abilities (and instead a refinary) seriously limits its value to them compared to the people who actually live in 0.0
//Maya |
Sarf
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Posted - 2006.09.28 13:33:00 -
[24]
The initial point is that the macro miners are flourishing because there is such a huge demand for low en minerals. he is proposing a ship that can be used to compete with them to the point that macoing is no longer needed.
I split this into two types of T2 mining capital. A High sec one that is a Mega reaper and has no defenses but still is useful but expensive for a macros to outfit with. And a second ship that has less bonuses for 0.0 mining but aids a mining operation by having gang bonuses.
One is aimed at safe space, one at unsafe space. They have different roles and differnet bonuses.
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Lygos
ISS Navy Task Force Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.09.28 14:01:00 -
[25]
So long as this adds people to the industrial equation, rather than reduces them, it meets the first stage of acceptable development.
I shall call this the Additive Principle of game development.
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Verone
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Posted - 2006.09.28 14:37:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Reggie Stoneloader Wait, so is this an idea for a high-sec ore reaper.
Definatley not, an idustrial capital ship should have all the same pros and cons as a combat orientated capital ship, insluding not being able to get into high-sec.
Allowing a capital ship capable of mining into highsec would see a massive increase in AFK play as well as a lot of strip mining which harms players who are not yet developed enough to venture into low security space.
I'd be firmly aganist any form of capital ship that could be used for profit in high security space, other than a freighter which is required purely for corporate logistical reasons, and moving large amounts of packaged ships or processed materials and construction components.
This idea is not for a high secruity solo mining win button, but more for a support vessel and forward temporary base for large scale 0.0 and low-security mining operations.
As with carriers and motherships, which aren't allowed into highsec, a mining or ice harvesting capital ship should not be permitted to enter, as this would lead to strip mining of asteroid belts and ice fields that are primarily used by developing players and corporations.
A capital ship is an investment on a corporate scale, and is designed to benefit a multitude of people rather than just the individual piloting it, they should never be a solo do-it-all answer to an individual player's problems.
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phillip duncan
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2006.09.28 18:03:00 -
[27]
to stop it stripping the starter belts limit it say to 0.8 and below so that it does not block new players from mining.
As for macro's they will get the eventally get the ships but they will do one of two things. Scatter or continue grouping together in a belt. Either way the GM's would find it easier and more rewarding to spot the pattens and ban them. The macro's will try and stream line there operation and you increase the risks as GM's will have less accounts to track and they have more dollers tied up in game.
Also you could limit the mining system it's self to a player corp pilot, so that they can still move about but cannot mining if they get kicked from their corp. After all a capital ship should not be sitting in a belt on it own and you need someone to create the jump field to move it.
I like the idea of a long cycle time capital mining system so that they are only profitable in the quiter belts leaving the main belts to smaller ships.
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Omber Zombie
Gallente Frontier Technologies
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Posted - 2006.09.28 18:31:00 -
[28]
you could go the mothership/titan option and do this: * Ship has no internal refining ability, but can deposit directly to a pos refinery. * Cargo hold is roughly 1/2 a freighter. * Skill level bonii = 5% to maximum cargo hold + 5% reduction in anchor time, 5% bonus to resists (arm/shield depending on race) while anchored. * 5 high slots, 4 turret, 1 universal, ship can run a max of 3 gang mods * Introduce new gang mods which are ore specific i.e. (+x% to Veldspar harvesting) * The ability to run drones as defence or extra mining (no fighters)
That way the ship must be used in conjunction with a refining POS, is a decent miner in itself but not uber (4 stripminers if you want, but that would gimp your setup with grid/cpu tweaking), is a great gang mining tool (the new command mods) and while it does need to be defended, still has some defensive ability. ----------------------
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Casabian
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.09.28 18:59:00 -
[29]
I think the idea of having an industrial capacity capital ship would be awesome to be honest. One of the most annoying things about 0.0 mining is the distance between a decent refinery, and a decent mining system, so in this capacity, I think a mobile refinery would be good.
Having it in high-sec would be a bad idea, because of Macroer's/sweat shops workers, that have chased my previous corp from it's last 4 mining systems, due to us having to pick scraps.
So, for 0.0, yes, go for it, industrial players (like myself) need more ships, because eve's very much a combat orientated game, and this would just be teh sex0r.
For high sec, however, it'd just kill the low end mineral market, like the past 12/18 months, but worse
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Sarf
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Posted - 2006.09.28 22:08:00 -
[30]
One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that belts are moving to a more deadspace complex type. So a capital mining ship could be a high space ship if it was limited to belts that are designed form them/ full system belts where there are so many roids of veld that even macroers could not strip the system.
In these cases a carrier sized ship would be appropriate.
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